hi,
i was told by SPR not to overclock my tualatin but i of course did. it was easy, and it works but it puts out 40 watts of heat. i can cool it i with fans loud.
i'm thinking of going water cooling, so i can enjoy silence once again. i'm even thinking of overclocking it more as water cooling should be able to accommodate additional heat.
something i can order from pricewatch or newegg. i have no experience with water cooling.
i'd like a complete retail kit, but one that is small, can fit inside a standard midtower atx case, and use the standard 4-pin 12volt molex from the PSU, 250 watts, rather than an external power cord (to help keep cables down.)
currently i'm only cooling the cpu, running at a modest 40 watts, rather than the GPU or chipset.
so i'm looking for something introductory and yet affordable.
(i got the crazy idea to overclock from overclocker's.com - they said it was easy and it was).
to show i've done some research here are some models i've considered
Gyrox CP101 CPU Cooler: 0.63
CSE Power Cooling: 0.57 - Very quiet
3R System Poseidon WCL-03: 0.57 - Very quiet
Iceberg Watercooling Kit: 0.41
Mitron Waterblock, Radiator and Reservoir: 0.40
3R System WCL-03 90: 0.40
Aqualia Watercooling Kit: 0.39
3R System WCL-03 120: 0.38
3R System WCL-03 120: 0.38
Asetek WaterChill: 0.30
i clicked on the links and read the reviews provided at
http://www.overclockers.com/articles373/waterkit.asp
but i wonder if anyone has personal recommendations on the basis of simplicity, both in set up, and placement in case, small size, quietness, cost.
beginner's commerical water cooler
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
Just wanted to let You know that even that I'm total newbie to W/C, I haven't done anything yet, I can comment that You are looking the list from the wrong end.
Just check what that site has to say about Gyrox and than You can clearly see that best options are at the to of the list, not at the bottom. So basically I would suggest is for You to continue research and see if any from the top fit to Your needs and stay far away from the ones in the bottom of the list.
Heres small quote from the Gyrox review:
Just check what that site has to say about Gyrox and than You can clearly see that best options are at the to of the list, not at the bottom. So basically I would suggest is for You to continue research and see if any from the top fit to Your needs and stay far away from the ones in the bottom of the list.
Heres small quote from the Gyrox review:
TEST RESULTS - Motherboard
I skipped this - no way I'm putting this on a hot CPU.
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HammerSandwich
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Gooserider
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Almost any kit will be lower performance than what you can build yourself, often for the same sort of money. Kits are built to a price point, usually a 'bargain' price, and thus tend to cut corners and sacrifice performance in order to meet that price while still making a profit. I've also found that kits tend not to have the mix of parts that are commonly needed and fixing this can be very expen$ive.
Kits tend to use 3/8" or smaller tubing, often poor quality material. 1/2" Tygon costs more, and usually 1/2" compatible blocks frequently cost more as well.
Kit rads tend to be small "PC specific" types, frequently with noisy high power fans (needed to get adequate performance from the dinky rad) and no or minimal shrouds. An automotive heatercore is usually a far better value, giving more cooling area for less money. One can also hand make shrouds from a variety of material, usually low cost, and then pick the fan of one's choice. Since heater cores tend to be larger, this will allow the use of larger / more / slower and quieter fans while still giving adequate cooling.
The pumps are often the biggest area of compromise in a kit. The tendency is to choose pumps w/ very low head ratings (far more critical than volume rating) that are low cost but barely adequate to push the coolant around the loop.
The blocks may or may not be OK, it depends on the kit. Probably one of the biggest indicators is whether the blocks in the kit are popular choices with people doing their own custom setups.
Other stuff tends to be chosen more for 'bling bling' than it is for functionality (i.e. Bayres units)
My general reccomendation is to roll your own setup rather than getting a kit. IMHO if you do your homework, you should be able to get better stuff for about the same cost.
Gooserider
Kits tend to use 3/8" or smaller tubing, often poor quality material. 1/2" Tygon costs more, and usually 1/2" compatible blocks frequently cost more as well.
Kit rads tend to be small "PC specific" types, frequently with noisy high power fans (needed to get adequate performance from the dinky rad) and no or minimal shrouds. An automotive heatercore is usually a far better value, giving more cooling area for less money. One can also hand make shrouds from a variety of material, usually low cost, and then pick the fan of one's choice. Since heater cores tend to be larger, this will allow the use of larger / more / slower and quieter fans while still giving adequate cooling.
The pumps are often the biggest area of compromise in a kit. The tendency is to choose pumps w/ very low head ratings (far more critical than volume rating) that are low cost but barely adequate to push the coolant around the loop.
The blocks may or may not be OK, it depends on the kit. Probably one of the biggest indicators is whether the blocks in the kit are popular choices with people doing their own custom setups.
Other stuff tends to be chosen more for 'bling bling' than it is for functionality (i.e. Bayres units)
My general reccomendation is to roll your own setup rather than getting a kit. IMHO if you do your homework, you should be able to get better stuff for about the same cost.
Gooserider
hi,
Marvin, i wanted something inexpensive, as i'm a newbie at this, and the bottom of the list are "beginner's kits" and i've not done anything yet.
the posedin kit, for example, looks pretty modest, and i also want something that is relatively inexpensive.
in some respects a water cooling kit that is a fancy heat pipe (i.e no pump) might work well for me, although i would like to see stats on its performance relative to a heatsink/fan.
HammerSandwich and Nahyah, thanks for recommending the Asetek and
Poseidon, respetively, that's why i made this post, i want to see what people recommend, and i'm heading over to pricewatch/ebay/newegg.
oh HammerSandwich, to answer your ?, couple of reasons
1- i'd like to practice and get experience and just to see what's out there.
2- if i am going to buy the aerocool HT-101 for $55 at newegg, and if i can get a complete kit for $80, i might as well go for the $80
3- i might try to overclock to 143mhz*11, 150mhz*11, even 166mhz *11
4- even if i can't overclock, i'd like to then try to undervolt, and hopefully my cpu and computer lasts a long, long time.
5- even if i can't undervolt, i would like my pc to last a long, long time
Gooserider,
your post is most complete. since Marvin and I are newbies, i am curious as to what components you would recommend for my "needs"
- cooling 40 watt, possibly 60 watt with overclocking, cpu quietly
1 what kind of water pump would you recommend, one that fits inside a case, hopefully can be mounted in a 3.5" free bay, and accepts standard 12 volt 4-pin molex PSU connectors (not one that has to be plugged outside)
2- what kind of radiator would you recommend, preferably one that can be mounted in the case, or in the 5 1/4 free bay slot, and
3- does it matter which waterblock i use?
the Thermaltake AquariusII seems to have what i want -- it can be contained within the case, the pump uses the 4-wire 12v power, but i don't know much about its quality and reputation.
Marvin, i wanted something inexpensive, as i'm a newbie at this, and the bottom of the list are "beginner's kits" and i've not done anything yet.
the posedin kit, for example, looks pretty modest, and i also want something that is relatively inexpensive.
in some respects a water cooling kit that is a fancy heat pipe (i.e no pump) might work well for me, although i would like to see stats on its performance relative to a heatsink/fan.
HammerSandwich and Nahyah, thanks for recommending the Asetek and
Poseidon, respetively, that's why i made this post, i want to see what people recommend, and i'm heading over to pricewatch/ebay/newegg.
oh HammerSandwich, to answer your ?, couple of reasons
1- i'd like to practice and get experience and just to see what's out there.
2- if i am going to buy the aerocool HT-101 for $55 at newegg, and if i can get a complete kit for $80, i might as well go for the $80
3- i might try to overclock to 143mhz*11, 150mhz*11, even 166mhz *11
4- even if i can't overclock, i'd like to then try to undervolt, and hopefully my cpu and computer lasts a long, long time.
5- even if i can't undervolt, i would like my pc to last a long, long time
Gooserider,
your post is most complete. since Marvin and I are newbies, i am curious as to what components you would recommend for my "needs"
- cooling 40 watt, possibly 60 watt with overclocking, cpu quietly
1 what kind of water pump would you recommend, one that fits inside a case, hopefully can be mounted in a 3.5" free bay, and accepts standard 12 volt 4-pin molex PSU connectors (not one that has to be plugged outside)
2- what kind of radiator would you recommend, preferably one that can be mounted in the case, or in the 5 1/4 free bay slot, and
3- does it matter which waterblock i use?
the Thermaltake AquariusII seems to have what i want -- it can be contained within the case, the pump uses the 4-wire 12v power, but i don't know much about its quality and reputation.
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HammerSandwich
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Dan, have you read "chylld's guide" in the stickies?
I think you'll find that an $80 kit (even from ebay) is of pretty questionable quality. If you are committed to long-lasting components, you should be thinking about an $80 pump. Seriously.
1) Pumps to consider are the Dtek/C-systems CSP-750, Eheim 1048, and Swiftech MCP650/Dangerden D4. Many tradeoffs here.
The 750 is pretty new, so reliability unproven, but size and the $35 price are good, plus reports of noise are extremely positive. Edward Ng should report on this pump pretty soon.
The 1048 is quiet and reliable but a 120VAC pump. It's also larger than the others.
Finally the 650/D4 is an outstanding pump, but expensive and about 30dBA at 1M. Probably overkill for your heatload.
Swiftech is about to announce a new pump. It will be reliable and small, but price will be high. This is the same pump that the 2.5GHz Macs use.
2) Well, what case are you putting it in and how much modding are you willing/able to do? For your wants, I'd suggest a ~$25 copper tube-and-fin transmission oil cooler. Get one that's 3/4" thick with as much frontal area as you can fit. Waterflow will be worse than through a heatercore, but you can use less fan for lower noise. But, for the money, a HC is not a bad choice.
3) Yes, no question. Just like some heatsinks offer better performance with a given fan, the waterblock can buy you several degrees for a given pump/rad/etc. The all-purpose safe bet right now is the Swiftech 6000/6002 at $40.
With some careful shopping, you can get a good system for little more than $100. That's a much smarter move than $80 on one of the toy kits.
I think you'll find that an $80 kit (even from ebay) is of pretty questionable quality. If you are committed to long-lasting components, you should be thinking about an $80 pump. Seriously.
1) Pumps to consider are the Dtek/C-systems CSP-750, Eheim 1048, and Swiftech MCP650/Dangerden D4. Many tradeoffs here.
The 750 is pretty new, so reliability unproven, but size and the $35 price are good, plus reports of noise are extremely positive. Edward Ng should report on this pump pretty soon.
The 1048 is quiet and reliable but a 120VAC pump. It's also larger than the others.
Finally the 650/D4 is an outstanding pump, but expensive and about 30dBA at 1M. Probably overkill for your heatload.
Swiftech is about to announce a new pump. It will be reliable and small, but price will be high. This is the same pump that the 2.5GHz Macs use.
2) Well, what case are you putting it in and how much modding are you willing/able to do? For your wants, I'd suggest a ~$25 copper tube-and-fin transmission oil cooler. Get one that's 3/4" thick with as much frontal area as you can fit. Waterflow will be worse than through a heatercore, but you can use less fan for lower noise. But, for the money, a HC is not a bad choice.
3) Yes, no question. Just like some heatsinks offer better performance with a given fan, the waterblock can buy you several degrees for a given pump/rad/etc. The all-purpose safe bet right now is the Swiftech 6000/6002 at $40.
With some careful shopping, you can get a good system for little more than $100. That's a much smarter move than $80 on one of the toy kits.
hi HammerSandwich
yes i did read the guide, and learn something about Waterblocks, radiators, tubing ,Pumps, Fans, Additives
here's what i'm thinking.
for $30-40 you can get a high-end heatsink and fan.
however, for just $20 more you can get a heatpipe solution called
AeroCool Copper CPU Cooler HT-101.
newegg sells it for $57.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDe ... 107&depa=0
aerocool's website is www.aerocool.com/tw
but for just about $20 more, i can get the thermaltake aquarius II, at $80
the $80 kit i'm looking at most closely is the "Thermaltake AquariusII"
which over at http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=CA-A1604&c=pw
would i be better off with the heatpipe solution, which, one nice thing about it is that it is easy to install, or with thermaltake solution?
yes i can't find the Dtek/C-systems CSP-750 over at pricewatch. i would prefer to stay with 12volt PSU 4-wire molex since i have soooo many cables already. i did not know that Swiftech made pumps, it'd be something i'd be open too.
one "long-term" possibility is that i buy this thermaltake aquarius, and if i feel i need to upgrade the pump, i'll buy the CSP-750 you suggest OR Swiftech pump, etc.
here's a question i have, and i def. suggest you post it as a seperate thread:
since we newbies can buy the thermaltake for $80, do you think it is possible to build a superior solution within the $80 price?
2-i have an industry standard mid-tower atx case with 3 5/14 bays from aopen kf56. i've already done some modding to the case
i plan to take this computer to a college dorm/apartment, and i'd like minimum wires/cables, so i would like to have the components housed within the chassis or attached outside the chassis (in the case of the radiator).
3- where can i get a copper tube-and-fin transmission oil cooler? from walmart or automobile shop? how would i attach this into a pc case?
i think this might be fun!
yes i did read the guide, and learn something about Waterblocks, radiators, tubing ,Pumps, Fans, Additives
here's what i'm thinking.
for $30-40 you can get a high-end heatsink and fan.
however, for just $20 more you can get a heatpipe solution called
AeroCool Copper CPU Cooler HT-101.
newegg sells it for $57.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDe ... 107&depa=0
aerocool's website is www.aerocool.com/tw
but for just about $20 more, i can get the thermaltake aquarius II, at $80
the $80 kit i'm looking at most closely is the "Thermaltake AquariusII"
which over at http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=CA-A1604&c=pw
would i be better off with the heatpipe solution, which, one nice thing about it is that it is easy to install, or with thermaltake solution?
yes i can't find the Dtek/C-systems CSP-750 over at pricewatch. i would prefer to stay with 12volt PSU 4-wire molex since i have soooo many cables already. i did not know that Swiftech made pumps, it'd be something i'd be open too.
one "long-term" possibility is that i buy this thermaltake aquarius, and if i feel i need to upgrade the pump, i'll buy the CSP-750 you suggest OR Swiftech pump, etc.
here's a question i have, and i def. suggest you post it as a seperate thread:
since we newbies can buy the thermaltake for $80, do you think it is possible to build a superior solution within the $80 price?
2-i have an industry standard mid-tower atx case with 3 5/14 bays from aopen kf56. i've already done some modding to the case
i plan to take this computer to a college dorm/apartment, and i'd like minimum wires/cables, so i would like to have the components housed within the chassis or attached outside the chassis (in the case of the radiator).
3- where can i get a copper tube-and-fin transmission oil cooler? from walmart or automobile shop? how would i attach this into a pc case?
i think this might be fun!
HammerSandwich wrote:Dan, have you read "chylld's guide" in the stickies?
I think you'll find that an $80 kit (even from ebay) is of pretty questionable quality. If you are committed to long-lasting components, you should be thinking about an $80 pump. Seriously.
1) Pumps to consider are the Dtek/C-systems CSP-750, Eheim 1048, and Swiftech MCP650/Dangerden D4. Many tradeoffs here.
The 750 is pretty new, so reliability unproven, but size and the $35 price are good, plus reports of noise are extremely positive. Edward Ng should report on this pump pretty soon.
The 1048 is quiet and reliable but a 120VAC pump. It's also larger than the others.
Finally the 650/D4 is an outstanding pump, but expensive and about 30dBA at 1M. Probably overkill for your heatload.
Swiftech is about to announce a new pump. It will be reliable and small, but price will be high. This is the same pump that the 2.5GHz Macs use.
2) Well, what case are you putting it in and how much modding are you willing/able to do? For your wants, I'd suggest a ~$25 copper tube-and-fin transmission oil cooler. Get one that's 3/4" thick with as much frontal area as you can fit. Waterflow will be worse than through a heatercore, but you can use less fan for lower noise. But, for the money, a HC is not a bad choice.
3) Yes, no question. Just like some heatsinks offer better performance with a given fan, the waterblock can buy you several degrees for a given pump/rad/etc. The all-purpose safe bet right now is the Swiftech 6000/6002 at $40.
With some careful shopping, you can get a good system for little more than $100. That's a much smarter move than $80 on one of the toy kits.
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HammerSandwich
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A good heatpipe HSF will rival or beat any of the inexpensive prepackaged kits. Upgrading such a kit is doable, but you'll quickly find that you want to replace EVERY component. This is not cost effective. Read the end of my previous post again.
The CSP-750 is sold only by Dtek for now. For tranny coolers, check out Bulkpart.
The CSP-750 is sold only by Dtek for now. For tranny coolers, check out Bulkpart.
Think of it this way. For performance, high end air cooling is equivelent to middle-range watercooling and low-end watercooling is middle-range air cooling. There is a performance overlap where higher end air can cost less but cool better than low end water. Don't confuse performance with cost.
The sub-$120 low-end water kits are almost a disservice because many people think that if it's water-cooled, it must be better than air. So they get a cheap water kit and become disgusted at the lackluster performance then swear to never waste money on watercooling again.
It especially hurts if they are trying to seriously overclock their system. For those seeking silence, the cheap water kits tend to be louder because of smaller fans and radiators so they too become disgusted with water cooling. A good cooling system (water or air) will perform well while a poor cooling system (water or air) performs poorly.
The stumbling block many run into is it costs roughly $150 minimum to set up a decent, well-performing, watercooling setup buying new parts. The entry fee is high for water cooling but the rewards can be great also. Good components can also move from system to system as you upgrade other components. If you want fast and quiet, water is really a nice solution; it just takes more understanding of the process.
The sub-$120 low-end water kits are almost a disservice because many people think that if it's water-cooled, it must be better than air. So they get a cheap water kit and become disgusted at the lackluster performance then swear to never waste money on watercooling again.
It especially hurts if they are trying to seriously overclock their system. For those seeking silence, the cheap water kits tend to be louder because of smaller fans and radiators so they too become disgusted with water cooling. A good cooling system (water or air) will perform well while a poor cooling system (water or air) performs poorly.
The stumbling block many run into is it costs roughly $150 minimum to set up a decent, well-performing, watercooling setup buying new parts. The entry fee is high for water cooling but the rewards can be great also. Good components can also move from system to system as you upgrade other components. If you want fast and quiet, water is really a nice solution; it just takes more understanding of the process.
There is no problem with industry standards, they are well known and published. Water cooling blocks are made for every family of cpu and gpu. Cases are usually the biggest challenge since cases equiped for water are expensive and don't sell well.dan wrote:perhaps intel and amd and ati and nvidia should offer industry standard water cooling guideline/brackts/mounts, perhaps modifying atx rather than going with btx.
Air cooling is relatively easy compared to water cooling. The challenge is that water is still a somewhat exotic form of computer cooling. Understanding and applying it well takes more time (and money) than many are will to invest. That leaves computer enthusiasts to assemble custom and semi-custom (kit) setups.
hammer time!
perhaps this should be a seperate thread but for an entry-level SILENT cooling, for say, 40-50 watts,
what size and length of tubing?
what 12v pump would you buy?
what waterblock?
what radiator (i.e what heater core) would you use?
which specific models, and where would you buy them?
this hammersandwich's response for us newbies
"hammer...C-systems CSP-750"
1 -- ok,
pump
C-systems CSP-750 for $35, not listed on pricewatch, newgg, or ebay, so i'll google for it.
apparently www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp sells this pump. ok.
2- "hammI'd suggest a ~$25 copper tube-and-fin transmission oil cooler. Get one that's 3/4" thick with as much frontal area as you can fit. Waterflow will be worse than through a heatercore, but you can use less fan for lower noise. But, for the money, a HC is not a bad choice."
not on pricewatch or newegg, i'll google or ebay for it.
which brand, serial, model # heatercore ore copper-tube-and-fin transmission would you recommend, and where can we buy it?
when i ebay for "heatercore" i could several hundred entries, from different cars and different years.
3- which water block and where to buy and for how much would you recommend?
its not clear to me but i would hope the tubing size for the csp-750 pump, heatercore, and waterblock are all the same diameter.
what size and length of tubing?
what 12v pump would you buy?
what waterblock?
what radiator (i.e what heater core) would you use?
which specific models, and where would you buy them?
this hammersandwich's response for us newbies
"hammer...C-systems CSP-750"
1 -- ok,
pump
C-systems CSP-750 for $35, not listed on pricewatch, newgg, or ebay, so i'll google for it.
apparently www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp sells this pump. ok.
2- "hammI'd suggest a ~$25 copper tube-and-fin transmission oil cooler. Get one that's 3/4" thick with as much frontal area as you can fit. Waterflow will be worse than through a heatercore, but you can use less fan for lower noise. But, for the money, a HC is not a bad choice."
not on pricewatch or newegg, i'll google or ebay for it.
which brand, serial, model # heatercore ore copper-tube-and-fin transmission would you recommend, and where can we buy it?
when i ebay for "heatercore" i could several hundred entries, from different cars and different years.
3- which water block and where to buy and for how much would you recommend?
its not clear to me but i would hope the tubing size for the csp-750 pump, heatercore, and waterblock are all the same diameter.
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Gooserider
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Tough call... I'm skipping over the 'entry level' kit, since my box is going to be server grade, and I want 'five 9's' reliability. Since this was what I was planning from the get go, plus I'm making alot of my own stuff, I've never done extensive research into the entry level grade hardware. I'm also a fan of big cases, so the shoehorn has never been a favorite tool. (My current project is going into a big server cube case, room is NOT a problem!)Gooserider,
your post is most complete. since Marvin and I are newbies, i am curious as to what components you would recommend for my "needs"
- cooling 40 watt, possibly 60 watt with overclocking, cpu quietly
The 12 volt requirement is a big limitation, of the 12v pumps that I'm aware of, the Swiftech is the only one I'd consider. I am a big opponent of mixed metal systems, so I would not consider that new Al bodied pump, but the Swiftech is all plastic and has a good reputation overall. (but get the latest rev as they had some problems with the early models)1 what kind of water pump would you recommend, one that fits inside a case, hopefully can be mounted in a 3.5" free bay, and accepts standard 12 volt 4-pin molex PSU connectors (not one that has to be plugged outside)
However it isn't that hard to mod your setup to get an AC line internal to the case, so I would also look at some of the AC pumps as well. My personal choice is an Iwaki, but those are big and expen$ive, so I would probably look more at an Ehiem or possibly a Danner for your setup.
Ideally I'd go with a 2-342 single pass, (IMNSHO the best overall WC rad there is) but I doubt you'd have room for it. I can't think of ANY kind of rad that I'd put in a drive bay, but you might be able to get a smaller unit (I've heard nice things about the Chevette cores) into your case under the drive bays, or possibly mounting it on the outside (If I were doing an external mount I'd likely look for the biggest thing that would fit on the side of the case) In any case I think that heatercores represent a better value than any of the 'PC specific' rads if you can find one that fits. The key thing is to use the biggest core you can fit, with thick body fans sucking through the rad, and putting a 1-2" thick shroud between the rad and the fans (If using multiple fans, put a divider in the shroud so that each fan has it's own section of rad to pull through)2- what kind of radiator would you recommend, preferably one that can be mounted in the case, or in the 5 1/4 free bay slot, and
Probably far less than a lot of people try to tell you, as long as your cooling needs are moderate. I would look at a SERIOUS cooling site (like ProCooling, and not a bling bling site) and look for any of their top tier or possibly midrange blocks that didn't mix metals. (either all copper or a copper / plastic mix)3- does it matter which waterblock i use?
I would also consider 3/8" ID hose to be the minimum, and preferably reccomend 1/2" ID Tygon for the main loop (IF you have secondary loops for NB or drive cooling, etc. they could be smaller, but that is getting out of the 'entry level' class)
Hope this helps...
Gooserider
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HammerSandwich
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Re: hammer time!
Goose gives good advice.
For a tranny cooler, Dan, I've already pointed you to Bulkpart. They carry both Derale and Hayden tube-and-fin units for very reasonable prices.
There are a zillion heatercores available, and you can read all about them at Procooling, OC Forums, etc. No point in rehashing their findings here. AFAIK, the fantastic heatercore database is no longer up, but I'd be happy to hear otherwise. Goose's 2-342 is an excellent unit, though a 50W load could be cooled very effectively with something smaller. The popular '87 Chevette core should be fine for that use.
My CPU waterblock suggestion is above.
Not every component has the same sized fittings. This is more of a problem with DIY than kits. If you have little-to-no plumbing/hardware knowledge, buying a performance-oriented kit from Swiftech, Dangerden, Dtek, etc. would be a good decision. Once you've narrowed the selection down a little, we can help with the more specific questions.
For a tranny cooler, Dan, I've already pointed you to Bulkpart. They carry both Derale and Hayden tube-and-fin units for very reasonable prices.
There are a zillion heatercores available, and you can read all about them at Procooling, OC Forums, etc. No point in rehashing their findings here. AFAIK, the fantastic heatercore database is no longer up, but I'd be happy to hear otherwise. Goose's 2-342 is an excellent unit, though a 50W load could be cooled very effectively with something smaller. The popular '87 Chevette core should be fine for that use.
My CPU waterblock suggestion is above.
Not every component has the same sized fittings. This is more of a problem with DIY than kits. If you have little-to-no plumbing/hardware knowledge, buying a performance-oriented kit from Swiftech, Dangerden, Dtek, etc. would be a good decision. Once you've narrowed the selection down a little, we can help with the more specific questions.
thanks for all the suggestions
which waterblocks are good ones to consider? are there water blocks that have built-in pumps?
one idea i've entertained is to purchase
thermaltake aquarius II for $80 from ewiz,
learn the ways of the watercooling
and ADD/EXPAND it as necessary. add a second radiator/oil coil, add a second pump, etc, as needed, by connecting tubes.
i don't see any reason to throw out the thermal take aquarius' water pump, radiator, waterblock, water tank, only adding or replacing parts as needed.
why not have 2 radiators, the small one included in the kit and a much larger radiator? why not 2 water pumps, the one included in the kit, and a second swiftech or csp-750 mark II?
this water kit has a external water takn, so water can easily be added, should not be necessary to clean out the water every couple of months
which waterblocks are good ones to consider? are there water blocks that have built-in pumps?
one idea i've entertained is to purchase
thermaltake aquarius II for $80 from ewiz,
learn the ways of the watercooling
and ADD/EXPAND it as necessary. add a second radiator/oil coil, add a second pump, etc, as needed, by connecting tubes.
i don't see any reason to throw out the thermal take aquarius' water pump, radiator, waterblock, water tank, only adding or replacing parts as needed.
why not have 2 radiators, the small one included in the kit and a much larger radiator? why not 2 water pumps, the one included in the kit, and a second swiftech or csp-750 mark II?
this water kit has a external water takn, so water can easily be added, should not be necessary to clean out the water every couple of months
Go read the threads in this link http://www.ocforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=127
After you do that, you'll know the answer to the questions you've asked. You don't understand the basics and buying a cheap kit is NOT a good way to learn the basics. Reading, studying, then asking questions is the way.
If all you have is $80 to spend on cooling, then a good air heatsink/fan combo will do better than water. When you have some more money and a better education on water cooling, then you can start with decent parts that will give good performance. Combining decent parts with pieces from the Aquarius system will just degrade the performance of the decent parts. Why do you insist on wasting money?
My $20 Vantec Aeroflow heatsink/fan will cool better than the mighty Thermaltake Aquarius II Water Cooling System for $88 at ewiz.
After you do that, you'll know the answer to the questions you've asked. You don't understand the basics and buying a cheap kit is NOT a good way to learn the basics. Reading, studying, then asking questions is the way.
If all you have is $80 to spend on cooling, then a good air heatsink/fan combo will do better than water. When you have some more money and a better education on water cooling, then you can start with decent parts that will give good performance. Combining decent parts with pieces from the Aquarius system will just degrade the performance of the decent parts. Why do you insist on wasting money?
My $20 Vantec Aeroflow heatsink/fan will cool better than the mighty Thermaltake Aquarius II Water Cooling System for $88 at ewiz.
hi,
i've started reading those threads, no i don't insist on wasting money.
there are reviews as well as newegg customer reviews of the aquarius II, and they all praise how silent a solution it is, and silence is what this website is all about, not just cooling. if your $20 cools better at the expensive of noise, is it worth it?
i am curious as to what you think of a solution like poseidon, which is sort of like a heatpipe. it has a sealed, fully self-contained waterblock and pump, and radiator, and the fluid is in it, never needs to be replaced.
the advantage this has over heatpipes is that while heatpipes are passive, this has a waterpump to actively circulate fluid.
its half way between water cooling and heat pipe solutions.
though at pricewatch it lists for $90, which i think is ridiculous. most heatpipes are around $50.
i've started reading those threads, no i don't insist on wasting money.
there are reviews as well as newegg customer reviews of the aquarius II, and they all praise how silent a solution it is, and silence is what this website is all about, not just cooling. if your $20 cools better at the expensive of noise, is it worth it?
i am curious as to what you think of a solution like poseidon, which is sort of like a heatpipe. it has a sealed, fully self-contained waterblock and pump, and radiator, and the fluid is in it, never needs to be replaced.
the advantage this has over heatpipes is that while heatpipes are passive, this has a waterpump to actively circulate fluid.
its half way between water cooling and heat pipe solutions.
though at pricewatch it lists for $90, which i think is ridiculous. most heatpipes are around $50.
This an interesting article on upgrading a low-end water kit. http://www.overclockers.com/articles1092/
my research thus far
thanks for the link, although the question i raised is this: can't you add ON (rather than replace) to the kit, for example, instead of REPLACING the radiator, simply adding a SECOND radiator, perhaps a heater core? why not have 2 pumps working together? (of course the waterblock must be replaced). alternatively, why not retrofit the "toy" waterkit for something like vga or chipset cooling, and build a new-one from scratch for the cpu?
my research thus far
i guess i could use a radiator core/oil core,
i physically went to pepboys (going online, the pics don't let me see what it's like in real life).
pepboys sells one, the least expensive one, for $29.99. is this "fair"? it appears to be an aluminum oil core cooler.
the csp-750 pump i can order for like $40.
i've had some difficulty finding a water block, i've tried ebaying for it, no luck, i've tried price watching for one, still no luck, and newegging for one, but it is offered only as a part of a complete retail kit.
any specific models for socket-A/socket 370 and where can i buy and for how much? i would prefer to spend around $30.
so if thermaltake aquarius II retails around $85,
i hope to build a system for around $90-100.
my research thus far
i guess i could use a radiator core/oil core,
i physically went to pepboys (going online, the pics don't let me see what it's like in real life).
pepboys sells one, the least expensive one, for $29.99. is this "fair"? it appears to be an aluminum oil core cooler.
the csp-750 pump i can order for like $40.
i've had some difficulty finding a water block, i've tried ebaying for it, no luck, i've tried price watching for one, still no luck, and newegging for one, but it is offered only as a part of a complete retail kit.
any specific models for socket-A/socket 370 and where can i buy and for how much? i would prefer to spend around $30.
so if thermaltake aquarius II retails around $85,
i hope to build a system for around $90-100.
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MikeC
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dan --
Messing w/computers is a hobby for lots of folks who have no other bad habits.
It seems obvious you are fascinated by WC and will do it regardless of need so I think you are treating this purely as a hobby. Nothing wrong with that, but go into it w/your eyes open, and only after you have studied WC thoroughly.
I suggest you consider the basics:
1) Your 40W CPU can be cooled so quietly with $30-40 of HSF and careful airflow management in the case that noise just won't be a factor. IE -- if you are telling yourself you're doing WC because you need it, it just ain't so. WC is not quieter than aircooling; both still require fans, the WC adds both another noise source (the pump) and more heat into the case.
2) WC does has the potential to cool more effectively, and with hotter Heat sources. However, a 40W socket-370 CPU in a mid-tower is a piece of cake to silence w/HSF.
3) Consider $200 as a starting point for a good WC system.
Messing w/computers is a hobby for lots of folks who have no other bad habits.
It seems obvious you are fascinated by WC and will do it regardless of need so I think you are treating this purely as a hobby. Nothing wrong with that, but go into it w/your eyes open, and only after you have studied WC thoroughly.
I suggest you consider the basics:
1) Your 40W CPU can be cooled so quietly with $30-40 of HSF and careful airflow management in the case that noise just won't be a factor. IE -- if you are telling yourself you're doing WC because you need it, it just ain't so. WC is not quieter than aircooling; both still require fans, the WC adds both another noise source (the pump) and more heat into the case.
2) WC does has the potential to cool more effectively, and with hotter Heat sources. However, a 40W socket-370 CPU in a mid-tower is a piece of cake to silence w/HSF.
3) Consider $200 as a starting point for a good WC system.
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Edward Ng
- SPCR Reviewer
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Mike is actually quite spot on with the $200 estimate. A $200 water cooling system will be not bad, particularly if you're looking to cool for silence, rather than overclocking silently (that would be extremely difficult to do on a $200 water system).
Taking a shabby a system and adding okay parts to it will cost you more and yield inferior results compared to building a decent system from the get-go. For example, let's say you start with a budget setup that utilizes 1/4"ID tubing, an 80mm heatercore and some mediocre water block. Now, in the interest of making the system cheaper, the components are also made of aluminum. Next, you go and spend more money to buy a nice, copper 120mm heatercore, along with a good water block (let's use the Swiftech MCW-6000A for an example), which will be copper almost with dead certainty and finally a new pump, the CSP-750. Those new parts are designed for 3/8"ID tubing. What will happen when you combine these components with the original cheap kit?
Disaster.
Firstly, the 1/4"ID components will all be restricting flow for all the components designed for 3/8"ID. For example, your 120mm heatercore and MCW6000A block are both operating far below their capacity due to the extremely restrictive 1/4"ID tubing. Your pump can't do much to help, either, as it is choking on the back-pressure from the 1/4" portions of the loop as well. Having a totally 3/8"ID or 1/2"ID system would never suffer such a choke-down.
Secondly, and worse than the detrimental effects on system performance, however, are the mixing of different metals. The combination of bare aluminum and bare copper sharing the system with conductive coolant results in very highly accelerated corrosion, known as galvanic corrosion.
By the way, having two different pumps in the system is likely a poor idea unless they're in parallel portions of the loop. If you have two pumps in serial within the loop and they are not, for our intents and purposes, virtually identical, the two pumps are likely to operate improperly or fail over time due to mismatches in flow rate and head height (imagine a car with two different engines and transmissions as well as final drive ratios; now imagine them both powering the same car, one to the front wheels and one to the rear wheels!).
Let's say you were to retrofit the ghetto-kit to something needing less cooling, in most cases the video card. The CPU gets your superior loop. Technically speaking, if you took the cost of both loops and built a single better loop out of it, your video card would certainly get better cooling, and even the CPU will likely benefit, from having higher quality components in general. Moreover, one pump and one fan to push flow through one loop and to blow/suck through one heatercore will certainly mean less noise, particularly when you're talking about one good fan on one good heatercore plus one good pump, as opposed to two cheap fans blowing harded to cool via two cheap heatercores and two cheap pumps.
CSP-750 is an outstanding choice for a first time water cooler; 12Volts, small size and good dead head to deal with the likelihood that a first time tube router will do a poor job of it (it's almost inevitable; I did a crap job on my own first setup as much research as I did--my second routing job being vastly superior). That the pump is extremely quiet once softmounted is definitely an excellent added benefit.
For the water block I highly recommend the Swiftech MCW-6000A. It's not too expensive, works outstandingly well, and while not particularly the prettiest block, isn't ugly by any measure, either. It is highly optimized for low-mid flow rates and still performs quite well at high flowrates, has a very neat and easy to arrange mounting system for Socket A that goes to the clips, so there's no need to take the motherboard out for mounting or dismounting, and the spring loading ensures safety to the K7's sensitive core, even without a shim.
As Mike said and I will concur with; $90-100 just isn't a sufficient budget to build a liquid cooling system that will perform any better or quieter than air cooling costing half as much. No need to build a $300, $400 or $500 system, but $100 is definitely short-changing yourself.
-Ed
EDIT: Oh sorry, I thought you were looking for a K7 block. My mistake; I'm hitting the sack, but I'll see if I can find something for Socket370 tomorrow...
Taking a shabby a system and adding okay parts to it will cost you more and yield inferior results compared to building a decent system from the get-go. For example, let's say you start with a budget setup that utilizes 1/4"ID tubing, an 80mm heatercore and some mediocre water block. Now, in the interest of making the system cheaper, the components are also made of aluminum. Next, you go and spend more money to buy a nice, copper 120mm heatercore, along with a good water block (let's use the Swiftech MCW-6000A for an example), which will be copper almost with dead certainty and finally a new pump, the CSP-750. Those new parts are designed for 3/8"ID tubing. What will happen when you combine these components with the original cheap kit?
Disaster.
Firstly, the 1/4"ID components will all be restricting flow for all the components designed for 3/8"ID. For example, your 120mm heatercore and MCW6000A block are both operating far below their capacity due to the extremely restrictive 1/4"ID tubing. Your pump can't do much to help, either, as it is choking on the back-pressure from the 1/4" portions of the loop as well. Having a totally 3/8"ID or 1/2"ID system would never suffer such a choke-down.
Secondly, and worse than the detrimental effects on system performance, however, are the mixing of different metals. The combination of bare aluminum and bare copper sharing the system with conductive coolant results in very highly accelerated corrosion, known as galvanic corrosion.
By the way, having two different pumps in the system is likely a poor idea unless they're in parallel portions of the loop. If you have two pumps in serial within the loop and they are not, for our intents and purposes, virtually identical, the two pumps are likely to operate improperly or fail over time due to mismatches in flow rate and head height (imagine a car with two different engines and transmissions as well as final drive ratios; now imagine them both powering the same car, one to the front wheels and one to the rear wheels!).
Let's say you were to retrofit the ghetto-kit to something needing less cooling, in most cases the video card. The CPU gets your superior loop. Technically speaking, if you took the cost of both loops and built a single better loop out of it, your video card would certainly get better cooling, and even the CPU will likely benefit, from having higher quality components in general. Moreover, one pump and one fan to push flow through one loop and to blow/suck through one heatercore will certainly mean less noise, particularly when you're talking about one good fan on one good heatercore plus one good pump, as opposed to two cheap fans blowing harded to cool via two cheap heatercores and two cheap pumps.
CSP-750 is an outstanding choice for a first time water cooler; 12Volts, small size and good dead head to deal with the likelihood that a first time tube router will do a poor job of it (it's almost inevitable; I did a crap job on my own first setup as much research as I did--my second routing job being vastly superior). That the pump is extremely quiet once softmounted is definitely an excellent added benefit.
For the water block I highly recommend the Swiftech MCW-6000A. It's not too expensive, works outstandingly well, and while not particularly the prettiest block, isn't ugly by any measure, either. It is highly optimized for low-mid flow rates and still performs quite well at high flowrates, has a very neat and easy to arrange mounting system for Socket A that goes to the clips, so there's no need to take the motherboard out for mounting or dismounting, and the spring loading ensures safety to the K7's sensitive core, even without a shim.
As Mike said and I will concur with; $90-100 just isn't a sufficient budget to build a liquid cooling system that will perform any better or quieter than air cooling costing half as much. No need to build a $300, $400 or $500 system, but $100 is definitely short-changing yourself.
-Ed
EDIT: Oh sorry, I thought you were looking for a K7 block. My mistake; I'm hitting the sack, but I'll see if I can find something for Socket370 tomorrow...
Last edited by Edward Ng on Sun Aug 29, 2004 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you are going to watercooling (wheather you need to or not), then it can be done for $100 without video cooling, but you have to work at it and be creative. $100 total for every piece is hard when shipping charges are added; $150 is much easier. First, post a side picture of your case with the cover off. You have to figure out where the radiator is going and how large it can be. Don't buy a tranny cooler from pepboys or anywhere else; a heatercore will serve you better. See if you can fit this http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp?Pa ... D=103&HS=1
in the lower front of your case. They usually have scratched models for $22-$24 with barbs. It's $10 for their shroud and bolts (or use a tupperware dish for $1 and hardware store bolts for $2-3). Plan on 1 120mm fan; preferably 120x38mm. For a cpu waterblock, you need an AMD socket A block that uses the socket tabs instead of the motherboard mounting holes (socket 370 doesn't have mobo holes, I think). I suggest a socket A version of the Swiftech mcw-5000, 5002, or 6000 (the 500x series are discontiuned but commonly available used). Figure $25-45 for the block. The CSP750 is actually a nice pump and would be a good one to start with but it may push the total to $110-120. You could go cheaper with a used or small pump, but the convience of it is nice. You'll need tubing (3/8ID suggested, consult before buying), fittings, hose clamps, etc. which will probably be $10-$15 if you shop smart. How bad do you want to do this and how professional do the results have to look?
EDIT: this is for a T-line setup instead of a reservoir. A res takes up more space and adds cost which isn't acceptable on a minimalist setup.
in the lower front of your case. They usually have scratched models for $22-$24 with barbs. It's $10 for their shroud and bolts (or use a tupperware dish for $1 and hardware store bolts for $2-3). Plan on 1 120mm fan; preferably 120x38mm. For a cpu waterblock, you need an AMD socket A block that uses the socket tabs instead of the motherboard mounting holes (socket 370 doesn't have mobo holes, I think). I suggest a socket A version of the Swiftech mcw-5000, 5002, or 6000 (the 500x series are discontiuned but commonly available used). Figure $25-45 for the block. The CSP750 is actually a nice pump and would be a good one to start with but it may push the total to $110-120. You could go cheaper with a used or small pump, but the convience of it is nice. You'll need tubing (3/8ID suggested, consult before buying), fittings, hose clamps, etc. which will probably be $10-$15 if you shop smart. How bad do you want to do this and how professional do the results have to look?
EDIT: this is for a T-line setup instead of a reservoir. A res takes up more space and adds cost which isn't acceptable on a minimalist setup.
Last edited by 1911user on Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HammerSandwich
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Re: my research thus far
Maybe an analogy will help... Suppose you have a POS stereo with 20 watts per channel. Later you get a good, 200-WPC power amp. Will using both amps be any better than just the big one?dan wrote:thanks for the link, although the question i raised is this: can't you add ON (rather than replace) to the kit, for example, instead of REPLACING the radiator, simply adding a SECOND radiator, perhaps a heater core?
Can the WC kit distinguish between CPU heat and GPU heat? Inferior cooling is inferior cooling.dan wrote:alternatively, why not retrofit the "toy" waterkit for something like vga or chipset cooling, and build a new-one from scratch for the cpu?
Since the Swifty 6000 has been recommended a few times, I give you Swiftech's Where To Buy page.dan wrote:i've had some difficulty finding a water block, i've tried ebaying for it, no luck, i've tried price watching for one, still no luck, and newegging for one, but it is offered only as a part of a complete retail kit.
Seems we're going over the same ground a bit here...