Will Yate Loons provide enough pressure for my heatercore?

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johan851
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Will Yate Loons provide enough pressure for my heatercore?

Post by johan851 » Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:56 am

First off, I'm pretty new to quiet computing. I've started getting into it though, and things are looking good. My main rig is built around in an SLK3000B, and I've cut out the front fan grill, etc. etc. Going to use some Yate Loon 120x25mm's for the cooling, and modifying my existing watercooling setup in an external box.

To help explain the issue I'm talking about, here's a picture of my box:
Image

The fans used now are Sanyo Denki 109R1212H1011's - great fans at high speed, but now that I'm trying to undervolt (and really listening) they emit quite a bit of bearing noise. The only range I'm happy with them in is 3.3-4v or so, and at those speeds I'd guess they're pushing 30-35CFM. Going down that low seems a little pointless...

So I'm wondering if the Yate Loon 1350RPM 120x25mm fans will provide more airflow. I can't dig up any static pressure figures on them, sadly. Remember that these are Chevette heatercores, not like a BIX...they're maybe 2 inches thick, and like pressure. If I got the Yate Loons, they'd be in a push/pull setup as pictured.

Can anyone help me out? My rig is in my sig, all watercooled, with an MCW6002, MCW20A, Maze4 GPU, and MCP655. Overclocking is a priority, FYI, but I'd sacrifice a few degrees for quiet.[/img]

cotdt
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Post by cotdt » Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:20 pm

Yes, the Yate Loons will be enough but not effectively because setup isn't optimal for Yate Loons or Quiet Computing. You can get far more quiet watercooling while improving temps at the same time. I also admire your work on the box and your DIY spirit.

First, heatercores are designed for loud high-CFM fans and amplify noise even if you use quiet fans. They would have to go if you want silence. A 120.2 or 120.3 low-resistance radiator is needed, such as Black Ice Pro. Another option is a large passive radiator if you want extreme silence. They can perform surprisingly well if you get a very big one.

If you want performance get a Swiftech Storm waterblock. You can use far lower flowrates and get much better performance than your Swiftech block. MCP655 is pretty decent in noise but not nearly as good as a good sample of DDC or CSP-MAG (CSP-MAG is quieter than DDC). Although the 655 has far higher flowrate, high flowrates only help if you're using your current block. On the newer blocks you can't get better than a 0.6C improvement if you already use a DDC/CSP-MAG, and that's only if you can double the flowrate without adding any additional heat input.

I'd like to mention that for overclocking the new 90nm Amd chips, watercooling doesn't have much advantage over highend air, if at all. But extreme cooling does help a lot, ie. my Venice 3200 actually got to 3.2GHz with a 350W peltier. So maybe you should consider getting a peltier or something if you're crazy about that stuff, and plan to replace your CPU within 3 years anyway.

johan851
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Post by johan851 » Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:44 pm

The noise level of the MCP655 doesn't bother me at all, and the higher flowrate helps when pushing through three different blocks. I think you might have the data with the Storm backwards - it performs better with higher flowrates, not with lower. At best, it would amount to a couple C's of difference...not worth the $70 I would spend on it, in my opinion. I'm happy with my 6002.

Are you saying the setup isn't optimal due to the nature of the heatercores? That I realize, but I'd rather not change them out...I already made the box to fit, and don't want to spend a lot on new radiators.

It looks like my sig didn't show up...I'm running a Pentium 640, AS8-V, 9800Pro (with a vgpu mod), so the watercooling will help.

cotdt
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Post by cotdt » Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:04 pm

Problem is that blowing through the dense heatercores is difficult. You'll get little airflow and amplified noise if you switch to lower RPM fans. But you mention what you don't want to spend more money. How about ripping out every other fin from the heatercore to increase flow rate and decrease noise?

According to charts, under a flow rate of anything more than that of a CSP-MAG, the Storm has a C/W of 0.14 while the Swiftech has a C/W of 0.16, which translates to a significant difference for deltaT (~3-6C). If you increase the flow rate beyond that, you only get marginally better results of less than half a degree. IMHO Jet impingement waterblocks are more effective investment than high flow pumps, since good blocks even with low flow rate can outperform crappy ones under any flow rate. But you say that you are OK with MCP655 noise-level...hmm.... so what exactly is making all the noise? If it's the fans then getting Yate Loons and modding the heatercore should help very significantly.

johan851
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Post by johan851 » Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:13 pm

Could you link me to the charts? Are you talking about the graphs over at procooling?

I'd really rather not rip up my heatercores...ripping out my fins would mean worrying about leaks and losing half the surface area. I'd like to leave my radiators as they are, if possible. What I'm really asking is if Yate Loons will provide enough pressure for the heatercores in their existing state.

The nosie level is largely bearing niose. These SD's start to click at lower speeds. It's not an air turbulence noise, and all of the fans are mounted with rubber washers. Silent mounts won't fit in here, so that's the only option I have. At 3.3v there's really no air turbulence at all...just the growl of the bearings.

cotdt
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Post by cotdt » Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:20 pm

Since it's the bearing noise, getting Yate Loons would really help.

Yes they are posted at procooling, but they used 80W large artificial dies. With a real CPU which is smaller, I estimate the Storm C/W (designed for small dies) to be 0.11 and the 6002 (designed for large dies) C/W to be 0.15, comparing it to one of my Koolance300 which performs the same as the Swiftech. So the difference would be greater with a real CPU, especially a hot 130W Prescott.

johan851
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Post by johan851 » Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:59 pm

I'll keep the Storm in mind then, thanks.

Has anyone found any information on the amount of pressure the Yate Loons produce?

cotdt
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Post by cotdt » Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:31 pm

Hi it's me again. I own Yate Loons and would have to say that at 1300RPM blowing through my heatercore (yes i have one too, made by GM), I can't even feel it with my hand against it. W/o the heatercore it's easy to feel, but the heatercore is just too restrictive. At 1800RPM I can feel it slightly. They are very quiet but I'm afraid heatercores are too restrictive. Fortunately I upgraded to an all-passive computer system lately and love it.

Might I suggest to you the Coolermaster AAF 120mm Aluminum fans? They are thicker (38mm as opposed to 25mm) and are strong and quiet. They are also pretty much the only quiet ball-bearing fans I've come across. But few places sell them and they cost a pretty penny.

frankgehry
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Post by frankgehry » Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:23 pm

The system in this thread moves from a d-tek radiator to one of the black ice models to work better with a nexus 120 (1100rpm D12SL-12) http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=15168 - I don't see any pressure numbers for the yate loons at www.yateloon.com - but the D12SL-12 is listed at 47cfm and the D12SM-12 is rated at 70cfm (I have also seen it listed at 55cfm and I think 70 is on the high side since a 120x25 delta triple blade low speed is only rated at 57cfm). I would also look at this fan - http://www.directron.com/f378.html - I have one and it does not suffer from bearing noise at lower speeds like the high speed sanyo. It also has a great price for a double ball bearing industrial quality fan and is quiet. I would think that the pressure numbers for the jmc www.jmcproducts.com would be similar to the D12SM-12 and you could make an educated guess about the D12SL-12. - FG

But since you can get the yate loons at about $6 each, why not test them.

johan851
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Post by johan851 » Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:47 pm

Yeah, I already ordered a bunch of them from Case-Mod.com as case fans...I'll be sure to test a couple on my heatercores.

As to fans blowing through a heatercore...I could barely feel air blowing through a heatercore with one of my Sanyo Denkis at 10v or so...and these max out at 109CFM, I believe. You don't feel much air at all when it's blown through the core...the best way would be to get a shroud and see how much flow you get with the fan sucking.

Thanks for the link to comparable fans...that helps. I checked out the Yate Loon site also, and was surprised they didn't have more in-depth specifications. As for pressure/flow...

(Rough estimates)
Sanyo Denki: 2600rpm, 45dBA, 92.2CFM, .22 in/H2O
JMC: . . . . . . 2600rpm, 39dBA, 100CFM, .26 in/H2O.

We can pretty much throw the dBA specs out the windows due to variance between manufacturers, but I guess there's really not a huge difference between the two pressures...the Denki has about 18% more. At least that's less than I thought there would be.

pdf27
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Post by pdf27 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:42 am

It might be worth trying out AC fans too (see the "The Top SPCR Quiet 120mm Axial Fans Compared + 120mmAC Fans." sticky). I've got a pair of the Sunon 120x38mm fans mentioned, and they are absolutely superb - they're pushing quite a bit of air (one is in my PA.160, the other as an internal case fan pushing air from the case into the PSU compartment), and seem to be substantially quieter than my Seasonic S12 which itself is running with the fan on the lowest setting. You do have to decouple them, but once you do that they're great.

johan851
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Post by johan851 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:59 am

When you say decouple, do you mean running them in series to halve voltage, or do you mean you attached a pot?

I'm starting to get an information overload here... :shock:

HaloJones
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Post by HaloJones » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:30 am

Just to correct one allegation in this thread:

If the Storm is 0.14 C/W and the 6002 is 0.16 C/W then at 100 Watts the difference would be 2C. To get 3-6C difference would require between 150W and 300W which would be one seriously over-clocked and over-volted cpu!

johan851
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Post by johan851 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:37 am

If the Storm is 0.14 C/W and the 6002 is 0.16 C/W then at 100 Watts the difference would be 2C. To get 3-6C difference would require between 150W and 300W which would be one seriously over-clocked and over-volted cpu!
I'm not sure why I didn't catch that, but I knew the differnce certainly wasn't going to be 6C. Thanks!

Etacovda
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Post by Etacovda » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:38 pm

"Yes they are posted at procooling, but they used 80W large artificial dies."

Its a T-bred B 1700+, with a (very) small die size.
http://www.procooling.com/reviews/html/ ... ew_-_1.php

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