Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Got a shopping cart of parts that you want opinions on? Get advice from members on your planned or existing system (or upgrade).

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DJTurboToJo
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:38 pm

Hi everyone,

Hopefully you're all fine. I think it's time for me to buy new parts for my pc. I used to build every pc I owned and they usually lasted for about 10 years. Like now, it's time for an update. But this time I don't have so much time to dig deep into all new things and hope I can get some advice/shortcut from you. Thanks in advance!

# What I have (bought in 2010, links are for illustration/clarification only) #

1) Case: Xigmatek Pantheon Black, manual fan control at the front broken
[https://www.techpowerup.com/review/xigmatek-pantheon/]
2) Case Fan Back: be quiet! Silent Wings 2 14cm (air outflow, esp. for/from CPU cooler)
[https://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Be-Q ... 27689.html]
3) Case Fans Front: left bottom: be quiet! Silent Wings 2 (BQT T12025-MF-3) to suck air in and right top: be quiet! Pure Wings 2 PWM (air out) to cool HDDs
[https://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Be-Q ... 27688.html]
[https://www.techpowerup.com/review/be-q ... lose12.jpg]
4) Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3 Rev. 2.1
[https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-870A-UD3-rev-21]
5) CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 BE "125W" 4x3.40Ghz
[https://hothardware.com/reviews/amd-lau ... x4-965-cpu]
6) Cooler: Scythe Mugen 2, fan on right side so air is sucked in through the cooler and then out through back fan
[https://www.newegg.com/scythe-scmg-2000 ... ptcha=pass]
7) Video Card: Radeon Sapphire HD6850 1024MB HDMI/DVI (PCIe x16) with SLI power adapter
[https://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-ma ... 568/review]
8) Wifi Card: Asus PCE-AC88 AC3100 (PCIEx1)
[https://www.asus.com/Networking/PCE-AC88/]
9) RAM: 12GB DDR3
1. 2GB G.Skill PC3-10700H (667Mhz)
2. 2GB G.Skill PC3-10700H (667Mhz)
3. 4GB Crucial Technology PC3-12800H (800Mhz)
4. 4GB Crucial Technology PC3-12800H (800Mhz)
10) PSU: 550W Silentmaxx EcoSilent 80plus (has a fan which is probably the loudest of all but still pretty quite)
11) HDDs
1.&2. OS: 1TB SATA RAID 1 Samsung HD103SJ (Win10 + data on different partitions)
[https://www.newegg.com/samsung-spinpoin ... 6822152185]
3. Data: 3TB Seagate ST3000DM0001 SATA
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST3000DM001]
4. Win8: 500GB Samsung HD502HJ SATA
[https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-HD502HJ- ... B00DUGHRU2]
5. Ubuntu: 250GB Western Digital WDC WD25007B IDE

I prefer to choose the boot order in BIOS as I had too many issues with boot loaders, that's why I want to keep Linux and Win10 on separate drives. Speed of my current system is alright, use of PC is mostly for office, web, data science and programming (also server/client apps). As of today and not planned: no fancy games, no CAD, no video editing.

# What is my problem #

Since upgrading to Win10 (yes, not a fresh install) at every "cold" startup (just after "Loading OS" and just before the windows bootloader is shown) I get a BSOD saying DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL for jraid.sys. Then a dump is created and a restart performed. Important is the restart because after a restart my system realizes for some reason that it can actually go to the bootloader and then it boots into the windows bootloader (which is also old and I don't need it anymore but now I am afraid of not being able to boot into W10 after removing the boot manger).
More info about my problem which I was not able to fix (I have no memory issue and the driver is the latest, but still old JMicron JMB36X RAID Driver, v1.17.63.1, 2011-05-19)
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... s-or-equal
- http://www.fixoserror.com/fix-jraid-sys ... -step.html

# What is my goal #
Bring my system up to decent standards while reusing everything that doesn't need to be replaced. If possible make it even quieter (->Q: fanless PSU?). The system should run for 5-10 years with minimal maintenance and I rather spend $500 more to get some features that will turn out useful in this timeframe. Overall budget is hard to say as I don't know what I need to buy new but max is $2000 so this should give me some room but also too many choices. That's why I was hoping to get some help from you guys.

# What I want/think/have read #

- Win10 on M.2 as Raid 1
->Q: Does Raid 1 even make sense or would you opt for a weekly image of the os drive? I mean "wasting" a M.2 slot doesn't sound like a good idea but I'm used to having my OS on a Raid1 and even with SSDs this might make sense (https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/do ... 1.2544177/). What I care about is that my system is running and if soemthing goes wrong I have it back running in a few hours. I just don't want to spend time if there is a hardware (or even software/update) problem.
- more than 12 GB RAM (or at least the ability)
- Sound on Board (listen to nothing fancy just some MP3s)
- very good LAN (for wifi I'd like to keep the Asus PCE-AC88 AC3100 if that's possible and from what I read is should with PCIe x1)
- SATA Raid on board (possibly Raid 1 for some data from my old system's drives, no software raid, and the chip should perform pretty good)
- decent graphic card (for now if possible I'd like to keep mine and go for newer/better one once I really need it, it's PCIe x16)
- enough slots and SATA ports on board for my HDDs
->Q: Or would you just get rid of all HDDs?
- lots of USB 3.0, or above and one USB-C
- a good CPU for the next years I guess I'll go with an AMD Ryzen but still there are so many options to choose from.
->Q: Any suggestions for the CPU and then this goes along with which board?
- ATX form rather than Micro-ATX, I guess just because I like to have options and more PCI or whatever slots are better for future upgrades I believe

So, if you made it this far: I'm thankful for your time and if this was too much or not clear please let me know. So, please any advice or suggestion is appreciated.

Thanks,
TurboToJo

DJTurboToJo
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:05 pm

After looking around some more and even though I did read the current threads in this forum before posting there is just so much new and even newer parts are coming out so fast, well anyhow I'm in favour of Ryzen 7 3700 Pro right now.

But somehow I don't find it anywhere where I could buy? I do find 3700X and 3800X but the 3700 Pro which is faster (https://pc-builds.com/cpu/) and has a lower TDP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryzen) is somewhere hidden. I find it just on AMD's website. Am I missing something? It's basically the same with the Ryzen 5 Pro 3600 which would be my second bet but I also can't find it where I could buy it from. Any ideas? Thanks again!

CA_Steve
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA

Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:58 am

Welcome to SPCR.

Since your current system seems to meet your performance needs, it might be useful to benchmark it and see what might be the limiting bits. Then, you can decide how much added CPU power, etc. you really need. For example, The CPUMark score for your Phenom is 2576. A Ryzen 5 3600 comes in at 17840.
- Do you need ~7x the processing power? Are there tasks that could make use of this (let alone a Ryzen 7)?

It doesn't look like you have any tasks that require the horsepower of a discrete graphics card..unless there are some data science tasks that make use of/require gpu acceleration for compute power? If you don't then consider the Ryzen 5 3400G or an Intel processor with integrated GPU.

I'm not a RAID guy, so I'll leave that subject to others. I tend to have a couple of SSDs and back them up to an HDD daily. Also use Thumb drives for data archiving.

SSDs are great for no noise (obviously), fast booting of OS and programs, and where data is flying back and forth from RAM to storage. You could replace your OS HDDs with SSDs and then have another SSD for large storage..or go with an HDD for archival storage. All of your HDDs are long in the tooth...
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

DJTurboToJo
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:58 am

Thanks Steve, I guess I want to be future proof. Maybe also a bit of an ego thing but I also want the system to run for a while. I'm doing a bit more on my pc now but actually if I ever need a crazy funky power pc I could just go to amazon and book one for the time I need it.

Here are my other thoughts before I've read your answer:
Ok, as I was not able to find the Pro version I'll go with Ryzen 7 3800X (around $500). According to https://pc-builds.com/cpu/ it has a score of 502 which is compared to mine right now at 74 a big step upwards, maybe even too much but I like to stay with this for a while. That's why I also prefer a x570 board with the new PCIe 4.0. Even though admittedly I don't know if I'll ever need this.

Next quest motherboard:
Reading on https://www.windowscentral.com/ and https://premiumbuilds.com/ I guess I'll go with ASUS Crosshair VIII Hero WiFi (around $500), which should be more than enough. The only thing I'm thinking of right now is if I should opt for a workstation mainboard, like Asus Pro WS X570-ACE (around $550). Reading on https://www.gearprimer.com/technology/b ... pc-builds/ and I'm stuck again deciding what mainboard I should get, mabye ASUS PRIME X570-P Ryzen 3 AM4 which is also mentioned on https://www.windowscentral.com/best-mot ... en-7-3800x. Well, I guess I'll go with with the PRIME X570-PRO ($350) as I don't understand if I need U2 which is on the WS version. And I rather spend the $200 on a new case and RAM as it looks like I need a new case to be able to use the features like USB3 and so on from the Prime Pro.

Also important how good is PWM on these boards?

And then a cooler:
According to https://www.windowscentral.com/best-cpu ... en-7-3800x and https://premiumbuilds.com/cpu-coolers/b ... n-9-3950x/ Noctua DH-15 (around $100), as alternative Scythe Mugen 5 Rev.B. And as Abula also pointed to Noctua (posting.php?mode=quote&f=23&p=610956&si ... aad929a08b) I'll try this one.

DJTurboToJo
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:39 am

Ok, so focusing on what I need rather than what I'm dreaming of and probably will never use, how about:

CPU: Ryzen 5 3600 ($250, so cheaper, enough and 3gen to make me feel good)
-> Q: Steve mentioned the G series with gpu. I have no idea about this. Is the gpu from Ryzen 5 3400G (RX Vega 11) better than onboard graphics (let's say compared to Radeon™ Vega Graphics Processors as in ASUS Prime X570-Pro) and also better than my old graphic card? I'm confused. And then comes more confusing when reading "Integrated Graphics: Dependent on installed CPU" (https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-prime-x570-pro/), what does that mean?
Cooler: Noctua DH-15 ($100)
Board: ASUS Prime X570-Pro (35$0, alternative ASUS Prime X570-P ($220) has no USB-C which I think will become useful [https://www.asus.com/Product-Compare/?p ... TpX74V&b=0]). Both have integrated graphics and I think I could still plug my old Radeon in there. I don't really need Wifi 6 as in the Crosshair VIII Hero Wifi.

DJTurboToJo
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:22 am

DJTurboToJo wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:39 am
-> Q: Steve mentioned the G series with gpu. I have no idea about this. Is the gpu from Ryzen 5 3400G (RX Vega 11) better than onboard graphics (let's say compared to Radeon™ Vega Graphics Processors as in ASUS Prime X570-Pro) and also better than my old graphic card? I'm confused. And then comes more confusing when reading "Integrated Graphics: Dependent on installed CPU" (https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-prime-x570-pro/), what does that mean?
I guess it means if I get a CPU+GPU comnination than this motherboard supports the GPU. Well, I don't want to settle for "just" a 4 core replacement. So, I'll move on with the R5 3600.

I want to use the M.2 and suggested by Aneon (posting.php?mode=quote&f=23&p=610955&si ... aad929a08b) and others I'll probably go with Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB, but at $350 it ain't cheap. Making a Raid1 at $700 is a bit too much for my taste. I tend to Raid1 the M.2 970 EVO 500GB for total of $500. Still not that cheap. How about Aneon's way (1TB 970 Evo + 2TB Intel = $700 for 3GB instead of 1GB [compared to Raid1 with 970Evo]) and create a system image once a week from one M.2 to the other?
->Q: Any comments/experience/thoughts?

CA_Steve
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:22 pm

heh - seriously more text than I have time to read right now, but here's a couple of useful things to know.

1) Intel CPUs without the F suffix have integrated graphics. AMD Ryzen CPUs with the G suffix have integrated graphics. So the Ryzen 5 3400G does, the Ryzen 5 3600 does not and you'd need a graphics card.

2) Almost every X500 series board has a motherboard fan to cool down the chipset's 5-10W of potential power use due to PCIe 4.0. Almost all of them arrived at launch noisy. Some have updated the profiles. Not sure which are good and which aren't. Maybe Abula will chime in. So, take another look at PCIe4 and think if you really need this level of SSD speed for what you do.

3) Your old radeon will use 20-40W to play a video. Integrated gfx will use maybe 3W.

4) Have you considered having an external Sysnology/Asustor/etc box just for backups instead of the internal SSD RAID? Buy a couple of large HDDs and RAID 1 them. Or get three and RAID 5. :) There, I've expended my RAID knowledge.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

DJTurboToJo
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:01 pm

Thanks again, and sorry for my verbose mode. Helps me to think when I write it down. Hopefully it will also help someone once I came to a conclusion.

1) Ok, I guess I don't really need a graphic card but I like to have options ;). I'll look into these in more detail. Thanks.
2) That's good to know and if these are louder than I won't go for PCIe 4.0. I don't know if I ever need that speed. That was more planning for the future. But maybe I should cross that bridge once I get there.
3) Ok, so I'll look for integrated. Never had an Intel. Should I just go with Aneon's build it's from Nov19, not that old. I just wasn't sure if major things have changed this then (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=70512&sid=7fc4e70d ... 8b#p610955). As far as I can see the Gigabyte Z390 AORUS MASTER has onboard graphics and USB-C back and front, 3x M.2 and even wifi ac. That's basically what I need.
4) I do have external backups. One is attached monthly to do backups. Another one is in a different location which I put my backups on every 3 months. That wouldn't be enough to keep my system in a state that I want (without Raid1 or imaging). When I wrote that I want to fix hardware and software issues with this, I better try imaging rather than RAID1 as Raid1 is only for hardware issues but not if a windows or driver update screws up my system. I've no experience with OS images, maybe Win10 has something on board already. I just don't want to reinstall windows and all programs with all those settings.

I'm heading towards Win10 on a 500GB M.2 and having a 1TB M.2 which I'll split 50/50. So I can do an image from the OS M.2 to the second M.2 hopefully pretty fast, maybe once a day? Don't know how long that takes. And then put on the other half of the second M.2 data that I use often.
->Q: Does this make sense?

Well it has already been a journey and that's why I didn't want to go into this for a long time and don't want to do it in the next 10 years.

Looking at AMD-Ryzen-5-3600-vs-Intel-i7-9700K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-3400G (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AM ... 3335vs3498). I guess I'll follow Aneon's build and look more at this:
-Mainboard: Gigabyte Z390 AORUS MASTER ($350)
-CPU: Intel Core i7-9700K ($550, wow Intel still more expensive than AMD but it has 8 cores, so I get more cores ;))
-Cooler: Noctua DH-15 ($100)
-GPU: integrated
-M2 SSD 1 (Win10): Samsung 970 EVO Plus 500GB ($200), RW 3500/3300MB/s
-M2 SSD 2 (Data/OS Image): INTEL 660P 1TB ($170), RW 1800MB/s
-SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 120 GB (had it sitting around) for Ubuntu
-HDD1: 1TB SATA RAID 1 Samsung HD103SJ (maybe no need for RAID1 anymore, will see)
-HDD2: 3TB Seagate ST3000DM0001 SATA
-DVD: Sony Optiarc DVD RW AD-7263
-Case: Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C ($200) (especially for the front 1x USB-C and the other USB2 (4x onboard, 2 in case) and USB3 (2x onboard, 2 in case)

->Q: I'm more familiar with be quiet and the case DARK BASE 700 also has USB-C at the front. Any preference silence-wise?
->Q: Can I keep my PSU@550W?
->Q: RAM: Is it still that RAM/CPU/Mainboard should run on the same clock? Any suggestions for this or just follow Aneon's Corsair 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200MHz?

CA_Steve
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:39 pm

Honestly, I think you'd be happy saving money and going with the 3400G and a b450 mobo, but what the heck - let's spur the economy. :)

When you dump the gfx card and your PSU (yes, the PSU, too), the system will be damn quiet when the HDDs are parked.
The only big heat source will be the CPU. So, the Fractal R6 is a nice choice as it leans toward quiet as opposed to high airflow.

- If you go the Intel route and have no plans to overclock, consider the non-K version.
- If you go non-K, the power use is less and should be able to go with < $100 Noctua. You could go with a $40-60 Scythe Mugen 5/Fuma 2, Ninja 5.
- mobo - ok. Abula likes it.
- RAM: Intel builds have a pretty flat response curve vs RAM speeds. 3200 is fast enough. And no, clocks can be different. You set up the RAM profile in BIOS and you are done. I like the lower profile stuff, just to not worry about cooler skyline issues.
- storage. ok
- PSU: It has served you well. Time to put it to pasture. A new PSU, like the Corsair RM550x (2018) will have passive fan for your loads. Or, look at the be quiet! Straight Power 11's (always on fan, but really slow and silent), or the Seasonic Focus Plus Gold (passive for your load).
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

DJTurboToJo
Posts: 24
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:17 pm

Thanks again Steve for taking your time to read and respond. I really appreciate it. And you're right again in every aspect. If I find the time I'll look at a combination with R5 3400G and a b450 mobo
->Q: Any combo in mind?

Thanks also for the 9700 (without K) adivce. I won't overclock. I have no idea about Intel and according to (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/In ... 3498vs3477) it's the same speed (14883 vs. 14212) but less power consumption, just a tiny bit pricier $570 instead of $550.

PSU: Thanks, I'll take the Corsair RMx Series. Have seen it here in the forum a few times (posting.php?mode=quote&f=23&p=611158&si ... aad929a08b and posting.php?mode=quote&f=23&p=610955&si ... aad929a08b).

RAM: Thanks, Will take Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200MHz CL16 Memory Kit ($230). Are these small or rather big?

DJTurboToJo
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:24 pm

Looking at (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AM ... 3477vs3481) going for the lowest CPU Mark feels a bit sad and the price is not that much cheaper. But compared to my CPU Mark of 2576 it's an upgrade.
R5 3400G | CPU Mark 9526 | $210
i7-9700 | 14212 | $550
R5 3600 | 17826 | $250

->Q: What's the reason you favour the 3400G? Is it the integrated graphics as I don't need an extra GPU? Isn't the performance just too low when comparing the price? Maybe I'm missing something?

B450 boards:
posting.php?mode=quote&f=23&p=611158&si ... aad929a08b MSI B450 Tomahawk / Asrock B450 K4 Fatality
https://premiumbuilds.com/pc-builds/bes ... nder-1000/ MSI B450 Tomahawk Max
https://premiumbuilds.com/motherboards/ ... herboards/ Gigabyte B450 Aorus Elite (no USB-C :(), MSI B450 Tomahawk MAX
https://premiumbuilds.com/guides/best-c ... rd-combos/ also mentions ASRock B450 Steel Legend

The Tomahawk Max has a back USC-C none in the front which I would have liked but still not the end of the world. And it has "only" 1 M.2 slots. So, if I go down the road of OS imaging I'm not sure how long it takes to transfer an image of 300GB to SATA6 in real life.

MSI B450 Tomahawk Max | $160 | M.2 1x | USB-C 1x back | integrated graphic supported | LAN Realtek RTL8111H 1GB | 6x SATA3
ASRock B450 Steel Legend | $180 | M.2 2x (1 Ultra M.2 (PCIe Gen3 x4), 1 M.2 (PCIe Gen3 x2 & SATA3)) | USB-C 1x back | integrated graphic supported | LAN Realtek RTL8111H 1GB | 6x SATA3
Asrock B450 K4 Fatality | $150 | M.2 2x (1 Ultra M.2 (PCIe Gen3 x4), 1 M.2 (PCIe Gen3 x2 & SATA3)) | USB-C 1x back | integrated graphic supported | LAN Realtek RTL8111H 1GB | 6x SATA3

->Q: Any idea which are good silent-wise? Or would someone go with a completely different board?

Thanks

The rest (case, PSU, RAM, M.2) would be the same, right? Cooler could be Scythe Mugen 5 as Steve already noted. Basically i7-9700 and Gigabyte Z390 AORUS MASTER are around $900 and this alternative is around $400. Soooo, is it worth $500 for a higher performance and more cores that I don't need at the moment? Just to be future proof, probably a marketing gag anyways.

->Q: Is the super fast EVO 970 M.2 even supported by these boards? (again there are so many different M.2 versions)

CA_Steve
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:00 am

Some pre-coffee answers, so take w a grain of salt.

What country are you in? These prices are way above US levels. Have you tried https://pcpartpicker.com/list/?
.....................................
I don't believe in future-proofing. I can't predict the future. I do have an idea what I need now and for the next couple of years. I tend to build for that and recognize I'll probably replace some parts over time. I change the mid-range $200-300 gfx card for my games every 2 to 3 years (rather than buy a $600 one I have to replace in 4 years) and a CPU that tends to last 5 years (although my current Haswell CPU is 5-6 and is in no way stressed by my use case. Who knows if I'll ever bother with OCing to get that extra 10% performance...My initial mobo started acting odd after 4 years, and so I invested $100 to replace it rather than update (replacing the CPU/Mobo/RAM). Storage changes over time.
...........................

Back to your q's...

- RAM is fine for height. If you go with AMD, you'll need to look at the motherboard's Qualified Vendor List and make sure the RAM on the list - AMD memory controller is ...more finicky..than Intels.

- I favor the 3400G because:
1) You say your current PC's performance is ok and it doesn't seem like a processor upgrade will affect the outcome now or in the future.
2) Why spend more money when you don't have to and I think the 3400G +B450 combo is the cheapest AMD. If you want to look for cheap Intel, we can do that to. Probably an i3-9100 (and a B365 or H370 board). If you go with the Ryzen 3600, you'll spend at least $85US for a current low end gfx card.

- motherboard choice - not worth commenting on until you settle on a CPU :)
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

DJTurboToJo
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:37 am

Thanks again Steve. I think based on Aneon‘s build the i7 combo I listed above is one option. It‘s more than I need but will last for 5-10 years. I guess I‘m rather the opposite, spending a lot of time once and settle for a bit more expensive stuff and hope there’s no need to deal with it for a long time. However, I totally agree with you and now I‘m trying to get a 3400G version together. That‘s why I looked into and asked about a mobo for the R5 3400G. Then I would have two options (1. i7, 2. 3400G), the third with R5 3600 (not considering R7 and the like based on my needs and your suggestions) has no integrated graphics and as you mentioned the x570 was initially louder and PCIe 4 is not required for my tasks so I won’t go this road.

I‘m in Canada and didn’t look for the cheapest parts just on https://www.canadacomputers.com/ to get an idea. Once I make up my mind I can try to order the things through the links below to support SPCR or if not possible I will donate some money.

->Q:Anyone with experience or advice on a b450 board to go along with the R5 3400G? What about the Tomahawk, the Steel Legend or Fatality?

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:06 am

Ah, your prices are CAD and not USD :) It all becomes clearer.

Don't have time at the moment to research B450 mobos, but I'm sure there are some threads in here somewhere. You might do a search on that or go look at Abula's posts.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:32 am

Continuing the R5 3400G path, my thinking now, this is what I need right now, if everything else except mobo+cpu stays the same I could upgrade mobo+cpu in 5 years without changing too much. So, I had a look at a few links (my two options [i7 vs 3400G] are at the end):

SPCR:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=70490&sid=623a5182 ... ae2719eed6, Oct 05, 2019: Msi B450 Tomahawk MAX
posting.php?mode=quote&f=28&p=611138&si ... ae2719eed6: Jan 27, 2020 "'Future proofing' never works", also pointing to B450 for now if nothing fancy required
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=70443&p=610583&hil ... d6#p610583, Jul 21, 2019 MSI B450 Tomahawk
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=69480&p=610644&hil ... d6#p610644, Aug 04, 2019 MSI B450 Tomahawk

Rest of the internet:
https://graphicscardhub.com/best-b450-motherboard/, February 1, 2020:
"Last but not least we have MSI B450 GAMING PRO CARBON AC, which according to me is the ultimate B450 motherboard and is even better than the above-mentioned flagship ASUS ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING and Gigabyte B450 AORUS PRO WIFI motherboards"

https://www.cgdirector.com/best-motherb ... 0_Tomahawk, FEBRUARY 8, 2020:
"Although MSI’s B450 Tomahawk Max is the best B450 motherboard by good margin, ASRock’s Fatal1ty B450 Gaming K4 is a great alternativeif you’re unable to find the former in your region."
And about the Tomahawk "The single M.2 might be a bummer but you can get around the limitation with a PCI-E add-in card."

https://www.techspot.com/bestof/amd-b450-motherboards/, March 6, 2019:
MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon then "MSI B450 Tomahawk is a serious standout here, That said if you can afford it, our no compromise [the msi] option is just $20 more and frankly it's worth every penny"

https://techguided.com/best-am4-motherboard/, Updated July 26, 2019:
mostly 570, then MSI B450 Tomahawk

https://premiumbuilds.com/guides/best-c ... rd-combos/, October 3, 2019:
mid range: Tomahawk Max (with R5 3600)
budget: Asrock B450 Steel Legend (with R5 2600)

and then finally a very nice overview
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13091/an ... therboards, July 31, 2018:

My interpretation is: 1. MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon ($160) then 2. Tomahawk Max ($160)

MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon | $160 | 2x M.2 (1x PCIe3 and 1x PCIe2) | USB-C 1x back | integrated graphic supported | LAN Intel® I211AT & ac wifi| 6x SATA3, data sheet: https://asset.msi.com/pdf/main/global/p ... -CARBON-AC

->Q: Is there any reason to go for the Tomahawk because I've found the MSI Gaming Pro only once on SPCR (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=70210&p=609215&hil ... d6#p609215)? So, should I trust techspot on saying the MSO B450 Gaming Pro is slightly better than the Tomahawk?

Well, I like that the MSI has 2x M.2 but honestly I haven't had M.2 so maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on this, was simply hoping to bump up system and loading speed.

1. Option R5 3400G (v1)
-Mainboard: MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon ($160), or MSI B450 Tomahawk Max ($160)
-CPU: Ryzen 5 3400G ($210)
-Cooler: Noctua DH-15 ($100)
-GPU: integrated, RX Vega 11
-M2 SSD 1 (Win10): Samsung 970 EVO Plus 500GB ($200), RW 3500/3300MB/s
->Q: How can I figure out if this mobo is able to actually make use of 3500MB/s?
-M2 SSD 2 (Data/OS Image): INTEL 660P 1TB ($170), RW 1800MB/s
->Q: Anyone experience regarding speed with OS images from M.2 to M.2? Or should I just buy a regular SATA6GB SSD to put the image on (probably cheaper but I need speed, I don't want to sit there for hours for the image to complete)
-SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 120 GB (had it sitting around) for Ubuntu
-HDD1: 1TB SATA RAID 1 Samsung HD103SJ (maybe no need for RAID1 anymore, will see)
-HDD2: 3TB Seagate ST3000DM0001 SATA
-DVD: Sony Optiarc DVD RW AD-7263
-Case: Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C ($200)
->Q: Or another case as no front USB-C? Maybe keep my old (just the manual fan control is broken and if I continue to let the fans be controlled by the mobo my 3 fans are quite silent?
-RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200MHz CL16 Memory Kit ($240)
->Q: I couldn't find the QVL for either board to check the memory first. Any suggestion where to find that info?
It says for Intel and AMD: https://www.corsair.com/us/en-/Categori ... tech-specs, is that enough to check or where can I get more details?
-PSU: Corsair RMx 2018 Series 550W ($150)

2. Option i7 (v2)
-Mainboard: Gigabyte Z390 AORUS MASTER ($350)
-CPU: Intel Core i7-9700 ($570) [without K]
-Cooler: Noctua DH-15 ($100), couldn't find Scythe Mugen 5 or Fum2 and Ninja is more expensive
-GPU: integrated
-M2 SSD 1 (Win10): Samsung 970 EVO Plus 500GB ($200), RW 3500/3300MB/s
-M2 SSD 2 (Data/OS Image): INTEL 660P 1TB ($170), RW 1800MB/s
-SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 120 GB (had it sitting around) for Ubuntu
-HDD1: 1TB SATA RAID 1 Samsung HD103SJ (maybe no need for RAID1 anymore, will see)
-HDD2: 3TB Seagate ST3000DM0001 SATA
-DVD: Sony Optiarc DVD RW AD-7263
-Case: Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C ($200) (especially for the front 1x USB-C and the other USB2 (4x onboard, 2 in case) and USB3 (2x onboard, 2 in case)
-RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200MHz CL16 Memory Kit ($230), CMK32GX4M2B3200C16
-PSU: Corsair RMx 2018 Series 550W ($150)

Any thoughts on this?

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:05 pm

Answers to questions in my previous post, including new ones ;)

RAM: Found the memory list now, sorry.
B450-GAMING-PRO-CARBON-AC (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/support/ ... ort-mem-18)
CMK32GX4M2Z3200C16 has two check marks (1 and 2 but not 4), guess two of those would work but not 4? Some memory have three checks for 1,2 and 4.
->Q: What about the 3rd row?
At least the CMK32GX4M2B3200C16 (intel only) is not mentioned, so the Intel&AMD ones would probably work.

And the Intel&AMD is also listed for the Tomahawk (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/support/ ... ort-mem-18)

For the i7 option the Intel&AMD is not listed but the Intel only one (https://download.gigabyte.com/FileList/ ... 191113.pdf, from https://www.gigabyte.com/ca/Motherboard ... TER-rev-10). Too bad, so when I see some need to switch this wouldn't work. But who knows what will be then anyways.

M.2:
1. Samsung EVO Plus 970
- B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC: has 970 EVO Plus - MZ-V7S500 listed but on https://www.canadacomputers.com/product ... _id=135645 it tells me MZ-V7S500B/AM which is not. Same at newegg (https://www.newegg.ca/samsung-970-evo-p ... -_-Product).
- B450 Tomahawk Max: same as B450
- Z390 Aorus Master: Here they have EVO Plus MZ-V7S500BW listed so what the heck is this B/AM and BW?

->Answer: ""E" variant is the wholesale variant of the drive. It's usually a bit cheaper. It doesn't come with CDs, reading material, etc. "B" variant is the retail version that comes in the full box with all the little accessories like the CD. "AM" is simply the region, in this case, the American market." (https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/sa ... m.2539317/)

=> Samsung EVO Plus 970 should work with all mobos

2. Intel (SSDPEKNW010T8X1, https://www.canadacomputers.com/product ... _id=134662)
B450 Gaming Pro: 512GB and 2TB are listed but not the 1TB
B450 Tomahawk: same as Gaming Pro
Z390: 660P series only 512GB, argh :S
->Q: Does this make sense or did they just forgot to put the 1TB on their lists?

Case:
Should I keep my old one? Would work but my front has 1xUSB3.0 and 2xUSB2 and the boards for the front:
- B450 Gaming Pro: 4x USB2 | 2x USB 3.1 (Gen1, Type A)
- B450 Tomahawk: 4x USB2 | 2x USB3.1 (Gen1, Type A) | 2x USB3.2(Gen1, Type A)
- Z390 Aorus Master: 4x USB2 | 2x USB 3.1 Gen 1| 1x USB-C (with USB 3.1 Gen 2 support)
- Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C: 2x USB2 | 1x USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-C | 2x USB 3.0
That's not too important to me, I would have liked a C at the front but well just to name it. And the Fractal R6 has only a single USB3 more. Maybe I'll stick with mine for now, see how my old fans are (all from bequiet just one with PWM which is turning the lowest) and when annoyed get the Fractal R6 USB-C.
->Q: Makes sense?

->Q: Oh, and if someone could have a look at my two options in my last post, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

teodoro
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by teodoro » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:07 am

From memory, pro carbon had some additional features and better VRM components vs the tomahawk. The tomahawk’s VRM/decent heatsink is adequate for all of the current am4 processors, though, notwithstanding overclocking.

The MAX variants of MSU’s boards have a greater BIOS storage capacity. I’d probably prefer a MAX board because it’s more likely to enjoy a longer BIOS update lifetime. There is a pro carbon MAX wifi, though I’m sure it will be more expensive than the tomahawk MAX.

For general upgrade philosophy I’m also in the “buy what you need now” camp. You can look at your personal history and see that your needs haven’t changed much over time, so there’s no reason to believe spending more right now will save you any money in the long run. I think the 3400G makes more sense because it can satisfy your current needs and if you ever do need more compute power, there’s an easy cpu upgrade path (3600 through 3950X, possibly 4000 series) where there will be tons on the used market in 5 years time. You can drop in a discrete gpu whenever. If you ever need pcie 4.0 (which seems very unlikely) you can upgrade only the mobo to x570. In reality, though, the 3400g may well be adequate for your needs for another 8 years at which point new “budget” builds may handily outperform today’s best-in-class.

Re: component compatibility, I don’t think I’ve consulted motherboard QVL’s for any of the pc builds I’ve done in the last 3 years and never had issues stemming from it. Maybe I lucked out but most stuff is plug and play within reason (and pcpartpicker will yell when that happens).

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:12 am

Thanks teodoro. Also very helpful. I will then go the 3400G route. I was just looking at the different MSI Gaming boards and am one more time confused. The one I've read about is the B450-GAMING-PRO-CARBON-AC which is the same price as the Tomahawk Max (https://asset.msi.com/pdf/main/global/p ... -CARBON-AC)
This one has wifi but is not called Max. Bios updates are important, thanks for this insight. Though, I couldn't find a MAX version. What I've found:

[EDIT: added price from canadacomputers as rough estimate]
B450 GAMING PRO CARBON AC, $160 (marked down from $199) (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-GAM ... -CARBON-AC)
B450 GAMING PLUS MAX , $150 (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-GAMING-PLUS-MAX)
B450 GAMING PLUS , $140 (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-GAMING-PLUS)
B450M GAMING PLUS , $125 (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/B450M-GAMING-PLUS)
B450I GAMING PLUS AC, $175 (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/B450I-GAMING-PLUS-AC)

Could you help me indentify the one you mentioned (MAX & wifi)? Thanks.

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:30 am

RAM: When they list 1,2,and/or 4 channels for a given size of RAM module and speed, it's telling you whether or not the memory controller has enough oomph to drive the capacitive load and still meet timing specs for that speed. They don't list three because..it's called dual channel for a reason :) There's a performance detriment when you don't run pairs.

SSD: If the mobo QVL lists at least one of a model series, then all capacities should be fine (assuming they meet the m.2 physical sizing constraint.

Mobo: If you are down to looking at just MSI boards, the let the features determine what you buy. I think the MAX boards have a rear USB C connector...and may support USB 3.2 for a front case connector.

Case: If you stick with the monster sized Noctua and the 65W CPU, chances are you may not even need to run your case fans for most loads :) So, you could try your existing case with it's fans hooked to the mobo and see how you like it.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:02 am

Thanks Steve. I'm starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. About case, let's say I'd buy the Fractal R6: Are the case fans somehow regulated? Per software, bios, case chip? Just because you mentioned with the Noctura there might be no need to spin which would mean less noise, obviously.

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:09 pm

fans are controlled by the mobo. Some mobos have fan stop feature...or, you can set the fan value in the bios to a voltage lower than their starting speed - which is sort of the same thing.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:20 pm

Thanks, as I couldn't find any other MSI Gaming Pro Carbon AC, I guess I will take this one. I checked partspicker and with either MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC and also MSCI B450 Tomahawk Max I get the warning:
Warning!Some AMD B450 chipset motherboards may need a BIOS update prior to using Picasso CPUs. Upgrading the BIOS may require a different CPU that is supported by older BIOS revisions.
Mhm, so that would be anoying getting everything mounted and then I can't update the BIOS. Checking with the compaitibility list (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/support/ ... upport-cpu), the 3400G Picasso is listed in even some version I didn't know exist, like
- PRO 3400GE (E probably means energy saving as its TDP is 35W)
- PRO 3400G (has the same specifcations, couldn't find what exactly are the features of Pro but it looks like it's made for enterprises and easier deployment, https://www.amd.com/en/ryzen-pro)
->Q: Well, if someone thinks I shouldn't go on with the consumer AMD Ryzen 5 3400G please let me know.

More importantly, how can I make sure I get the right BIOS version. When I buy the board, I don't know if it was sitting in the store for a long time, right? Looking at MSI website I found that 3400G support was added, in Version 7B85v17, Release Date 2019-07-10.
They do have on their site (https://ca.msi.com/Motherboard/support/ ... own-manual) also a link how to flash the BIOS (https://ca.msi.com/files/pdf/How_to_flash_the_BIOS.doc).

According to https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=305246.0 (is about X370 Carbon Pro AC):
Hello,
All is explained in >>Manual<<. Unfortunately, this mobo has not Flash BIOS Button function so that:
- the only remaining is to use M-Flash (never use Liveupdate for that).
- a compatible CPU (and a GPU if the CPU has not a built'in one) is required to run M-Flash.
In conclusion, to update bios to a version compatible with your Pinnacle Ridge CPU, you have the choice between:
1/ Find (or borrow) one Summit Ridge (with a GPU) or one Bristol Ridge (some have a built'in GPU) CPU.
2/ Get one Bristol Ridge free from AMD: >>AM4 boot kit<<. You will have to return the sended CPU once bios update done.
3/ Find a local Shop and see if they can update the board for you. The store you bought the mobo from should update for free.
4/ RMA the board to MSI for update.
Of course, 1 is the fastest; 4 the worst (long and risk to receive a refurbished mobo).
Have a good day,
And for the B450 board (https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topi ... msg1963428)
Yeah, it'll work without a CPU. This motherboard supports BIOS flashback.
->Q:: A bit confused, does one need a CPU (like mentioned in the first quote) or not? And if not then do I need a graphic card for BIOS flashback or M-Flash or whatever they call it (well I guess I could use my old radeon, right)?

Or another way I see is to get this Boot kit (https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/p ... eplacement).
->Q: Or, is there any other way I can make sure I get an up-to-date board, especially if I don't have an older supported CPU lying around and especially right now when probably most of the computer stores are closed?

Here are all errors/warnings:
Potential Issues / Incompatibilities

Warning!Some AMD B450 chipset motherboards may need a BIOS update prior to using Picasso CPUs. Upgrading the BIOS may require a different CPU that is supported by older BIOS revisions.
Note:The MSI B450 GAMING PRO CARBON AC ATX AM4 Motherboard has an additional 4-pin ATX power connector but the Corsair RMx (2018) 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply does not. This connector is used to supply additional 12V current to the motherboard. While the system will likely still run without it, higher current demands such as extreme overclocking or large video card current draws may require it.
Note:The Noctua NH-D15 82.5 CFM CPU Cooler may require a separately available mounting adapter to fit the MSI B450 GAMING PRO CARBON AC ATX AM4 Motherboard.
Note:The motherboard M.2 slot #1 shares bandwidth with SATA 6.0 Gb/s ports. When the M.2 slot is populated, two SATA 6.0 Gb/s ports are disabled.
Note:The motherboard M.2 slot #2 shares bandwidth with several PCIe expansion slots. When the M.2 slot is populated with a PCIe M.2 drive, four PCIe expansion slots are disabled.
Note:Some physical dimension restrictions cannot (yet) be automatically checked, such as cpu cooler / RAM clearance with modules using tall heat spreaders.
Questions:
1. Bios update (see my question above)
2. Additional ATX power connector, also the 650 W doesn't have this 4-pin power connector. I probably won't need it as I won't overclock and will have no higher graphic card consumption. I'm still wondering if I should go for another silent PSU that has this 4-pin thingy?
3. Noctua has an AM4 special edition and on their website they say the NH-D15 has an AM4 mounting kit since 2019 (https://noctua.at/en/sip_productfaqnew/ ... iew/id/169). Should I just buy it and see if I'm lucky? Otherwise I have to get it from them (Austria which takes probably some time).
4. Is M.2 then not a good way to go? I mean I need the graphic card slot just for the BIOS update and as this board has ac wifi I won't have any pci card inserted right now. The manual p.32 and 33 confirms that I have 4 SATA slots left and I need those 4 already (3TB HDD + 120GB SSD + CD-ROM + 500GB HDD [Win8]) and using a 5th with one of my old Raid1 drives would also be nice but not necessary. I would also loose PCI 2+3+4+5, so I would be left with a single (!) PCI slot. That doesn't sound great to me but maybe one doesn't need these slots anymore? And if I had a graphic card in there I would be left with zero slots so no extension possible. But would that actually scare anyone away from this board or is this the same with all those boards nowadays?

Thanks again for your input.

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:47 am

From MSI's product page...

"Flash BIOS Button: Simply use a USB key to flash any BIOS within seconds, without installing a CPU, memory or graphics card."

Note that this mobo does not have front USB-C, just 1 rear USB-C. So, if you decide to upgrade your case...

2) OC power pins: maybe. Here's a thread from superuser forums. You could get a different PSU or just buy a molex to 4-pin EPS adapter.

3. yes.
4. I think 1) solves this problem.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

teodoro
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by teodoro » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:52 am

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-GA ... cification looks like msi announced the max version of the b450 pro carbon ac, but it was only a few weeks ago. Given the state of things, it probably won’t hit shelves for a little while.

Bios flashback is a per-motherboard feature that lets you update the bios via USB with no cpu installed. Sometimes they make odd choices on which models in specific generations will get that feature—just because the X370 with the same name has it does not mean the X470 will, for instance. It’s usually present on more expensive boards vs budget tiers, but sometimes a cheaper board will have it while a pricier model will not. It’s a nice feature for peace of mind (e.g. when a bios update fails) but I’m sure most people never have a need for it.

Pcpartpicker will alert you to possible bios update needs because it can’t determine how long those motherboards have been sitting on the shelf. Most likely, but not guaranteed, a popular motherboard at a store that moves a fair bit of volume will have a recent enough bios version to work out of the box. I’ve purchased a b450 within the last few months that was “ryzen 3000 ready.” I think the risk of your cpu not working immediately is very low, but in theory it’s there. Same deal for noctua, but probably even less chance (plus you can use the stock cooler temporarily).

If you’re really needing a lot of IO, x470/x570 provides more sata and pcie lanes vs b450. It’s up to you on how many devices you want to add. I think the vast majority of people use only a graphics card in the pcie slots. Whatever you do, I would recommend only using SSD storage for anything beyond media storage/backups. It’s likely to be the biggest quality of life improvement.

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by Olle P » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:01 am

I'd like to vent my opinion in these matters:
1. What you need to replace:
CPU, graphics, motherboard, RAM.
2. What you should also replace:
The older (smaller) HDDs.
The PSU might be considered for a replacement as well, to make the computer less noisy.

I agree with the others that AMD is the way to go now.
A motherboard based on B450 should suffice, with one or two caveats explained below.
RAM: A pair of 8Gb 3200 MHz is the current sweet spot. With four slots you can add more later if wanted/needed.

CPU:
The 3400G discussed will be a step up for you, but I'm not convinced it will be good enough for ten years.
My pick would be the Ryzen 7 3700X, paired with a mediocre graphics card. The reason is that it seems like eight physical cores is going to be the new norm, stepping up from the quadcores of the past decade, and the 3800X is probably not worth the added cost above the 3700X.
If you also want to avoid replacing the (new) graphics card during these ten years I'd also go with AMD there. Reason for this is that AMD cards age better than Nvidia cards. (The drivers for older AMD cards work better with new software.) A Radeon 5500XT is way overkill for your current needs, but do feature the latest architecture and should suffer the least over time.

So what are those motherboard caveats?
1. If you go with the 3400G and in a few years realise that it's insufficient, you'll want a CPU from the next generation, based on the Zen 3 architecure (to be released some time before christmas this year). The B450 will likely support those as well, but we don't know for sure yet. A motherboard based on X570 is as good as guaranteed to support Zen 3 CPUs.
2. PCIe 4.0. B450 cards don't have it, but X570 cards do. Will you need it in the next ten years? Probably not, unless you start doing stuff that require very fast memory.

DJTurboToJo
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:07 am

Thanks Steve, I'm sure I get this BIOS updated done somehow, I was just a bit worried and confused about M-Flash, Liveupdate and Flashback. PSU: I also read about this molex adapter, I was just wondering if the 4pin is something I do need nowadays (and it doesn't look like) and then I was wondering why Corsair doesn't have it in case that'd be the norm nowadays.

->Q: For me silence is important, are there other silent PSUs that have this 4 pin? (be quiet! Straight Power 11's and Seasonic Focus Plus Gold don't). Or just take the corsair and if I ever need it get this molex adapter?

About the front C, thanks, I know one can get the Fractal Design R6 also without and then one can buy an add-on kit for the front C. I figured I just get the C-version even if my board doesn't have it as the price is identical.

My 4. question was probably not well written by me, sorry about that. I was wondering if someone would say that having 4SATA and 1PCIe left is too much of a sacrifice to get 2 M.2 running? M.2 is cheaper and faster so I thought that's the way to go but it does have massive implication because of shared bandwith.

And thanks teodoro for that link. I don't need a new PC right now I was considering doint it for a while and always postponed because of all that confusion and research I'm doing now. I could wait but of course noone knows dor how long that would be.

Ok, I get it now. The first boards were sold without ryzen 3000 ready sticker. And the newer ones have a newer Bios and then they have this sticker.

Well, maybe I'm too old. I used to get extension cards for a lot of things: additional SCSI, IDE, TV, game pad adapter,... But I was also happy to get my ac wifi pcie adapter in my current pc. Anyways, you confirmed that most people will be ok having one slot left. Thanks.

And also thanks to OlleP:
My speed needs right now are covered with the 3400G but it's a pain to read about the details for every motherboard what lanes are shared and seeing that the 3400G disables sometimes a complete PCIex16 or changes the speed to x8 because of the Vega graphic chip and then again the M.2s kill at least two SATAIII and then all other PCIe slots or more SATAIIIs. I still have to do this for some x570 and see what gets disabled with two M.2s.

->Q: If someone has done this before or is running a X570 board with 2 M.2 could you point me to some nice boards?

Thanks for that tip about the RAM. I was just looking at the Corsair Venegance, 2x16 = $204.00 and 4x8=2x$110=$220 (at least on canadacomputers). I'll shop around some more. But first need to decide on which mobo.

Steve mentioned that and then I've also read more about that x570 needs more cooling so was/maybe still is louder. That was one reason why I went to look at B450 boards. And because B450 for the 3400G would be enough. Also Steve sorrectly pointed out that my graphic card needs are modest and the integrated one will suck less power. About PCIe4.0: some say that's the future but everyone adds that one probably doesn't need it (especiall in my case). So I went down the B450 road and discovered that I would have to give up quite a bit of lanes to get these 2 M.2 working. I'll look at the I/O for x570 now but was also considering buying a few external usb enclosures as alternative (I'd prefer to have the drives in the pc case but well what can I do).

Another question that arose will partpicking:
I want a silent (almost inaudible) pc. Mine is pretty quiet right now and the PSU is the loudest so I'll spend some money on a new PSU.
->Q: Steve suggested 550W and that should be enough (pp estimates 200W). Just curious if someone would buy a higher one 650W or so just in case I'm going to replace the mobo in 5 years?

Thanks for all your input. This is like a jungle for me.

DJTurboToJo
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:25 am

Well, I was now reading about the x570. Of course there is the debate of noise which I definitely don't want but I'm not sure how loud that really is. Reading about the Asus Prime x570 Pro the manual says with a Ryzen Gen2 and Vega the first M2 will be PCIe3.0x4 instead of PCIe4.0x4, so that - compared to the MSI B450 Carbon Pro AC - is the same.

I was reading about transfer rates but am wondering now:
->Q: What's the transfer speed difference between PCIe3.0x4 and PCIe2.0x4 (or PCIe3.0x4)? Isn't the x specifiying the speed?

And now to my surprise I couldn't find anything in the manual saying that I have to sacrifice something (no SATA port, no PCIe slot) when using two M.2 drives.
->Q: Is this real? I read about the B450 Tomahawk, the B450 AORUS Pro Wifi, the MSI B450 Carbon Pro AC and the B450 ROG Strix F and they all had to give up something, maybe (probably) because it's a different chipset, right.

If that's really the case and I hope someone could verify this then I would opt for the Asus Prime x570 Pro board and still the 3400G. This way I could add a new CPU and could add a graphic card if needed in between a major pc upgrade (if actually needed). That'd be 200 bucks more but some peace in mind.

DJTurboToJo
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:19 pm

DJTurboToJo wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:25 am
->Q: What's the transfer speed difference between PCIe3.0x4 and PCIe2.0x4 (or PCIe3.0x4)? Isn't the x specifiying the speed?
I see, it's per lane and per lane is defined by the version. Then there is the x as multiplyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express):
PCIe1 = 250MB/s, PCIe2 = 500MB/s, PCIe3 almost 1000MB/s, PCIe4 almost 2000MB/s.

So my biggest question right now is about the mainboard:
Option A: B450 probably the MSI B450 Carbon Pro AC (Master if out in the next months), so using 2xM.2 will kill 2 SATA and all except one PCIe slot OR
Option B: X570 where I have a fan (noise/replacement), more heat and PCIe4 (which I probably won't need) but I could still have 6 SATA and all PCIe slots and still 2xM.2 (I only checked this for the Asus Prime x570 Pro). This might be also better for CPU replacement (but future proofing is not my main concern anymore ;)).

So, for example I looked at https://www.techsiting.com/best-x570-motherboards/ and https://www.gamingpcbuilder.com/best-am ... yzen-3000/. But there are just too many options.

If I go with option B: Any suggestion for a quality silent board at a decent price (I know that depends)? So let's say not much more than 400CAD (makes sense?).

Thanks.

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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by CA_Steve » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:53 pm

your peak power usage will be under 100W.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

DJTurboToJo
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Re: Time for a new silent PC? What to keep? What to replace? What to rethink?

Post by DJTurboToJo » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm

Cool, thanks Steve.

->Q: What do you guys think of
Option R5 3400G (v2):
-CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3400G 3.7 GHz Quad-Core Processor ($220)
-Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 82.5 CFM CPU Cooler ($125)
-Mainboard: Asus ROG Strix X570-E Gaming ($410) [or MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC ($170), Max if out in a few months]
-GPU: integrated, RX Vega 11
-RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200MHz CL16 Memory Kit ($240), CMK32GX4M2Z3200C16
-M2 SSD 1 (Win10):Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($170), R3500/W3300MB/s
-M2 SSD 2 (Data/OS Image): Intel 660p Series 1.02 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($170), RW 1800MB/s
-SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 120 GB for Ubuntu (legacy)
-HDD1: 1TB SATA RAID 1 Samsung HD103SJ (legacy)
-HDD2: 3TB Seagate ST3000DM0001 SATA (legacy)
-Spare HDD: 1TB SATA RAID 1 Samsung HD103SJ (to put my image on when my M2 drive gets stupid, legacy)
-DVD: Sony Optiarc DVD RW AD-7263 (legacy)
-Case: Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C ATX Mid Tower Case ($200)
-PSU: Corsair RMx (2018) 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply ($150)
Partpicker warnings: just this 4pin ATX thingy and the Noctua warning (no problems), also checked RAM and M.2 looks fine.

I guess with the x570 I am in the middle, taking a slower CPU which has integrated graphics which is enough for me. A new CPU in 5 years wouldn't be a problem. It's also kind of for the future as I have more features (USB-C back &front, more SATA, bluetooth maybe for headset) than with the B450. But it comes with some issues like the fan on the mobo. And of course, it comes at a cost. But I think for me that's a reasonable way to go.

What are you opinions? Is this alright, does it make sense, or is it in the end just a bad mix of items to satisfy (too) many aspects?

Some of my reasoning:
More things fall into place still the question remains x570 or B450? There are so many x570 boards unbelievable, I came down to:
Asus ROG Strix X570-E Gaming ($410) vs Asus PRIME X570-PRO ($340) (both just 2x M.2, compared to some other x570 that are more expensive)
(+) Strix: 8xSATAIII, AX wifi, 2xLan (1&2.5Gbit), Bluetooth, 7 x USB 3.2 at the back (mostly things I don't necessarily need though)
(+) Prime: price, no wifi (not needed)

Also silentpc has the Strix X570-E.

Out:
Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Hero (WI-FI) ($510) - too expensive, also the non-Wifi version (I still have my ac pci adapter) is above $500
MSI MEG X570 ACE ($515) - Just 4 SATA ports
Gigabyte X570 AORUS PRO WIFI ($350) - Using all three(!) M.2 slots means losing 2 SATA ports (I'm not doing this right now, but if M.2 is cheaper maybe I'll consider this, actually not a good reason as my two choices have only 2 but the Strix at least has 8xSata and somehow I have to come to an end)
MSI MPG X570 GAMING PRO CARBON WIFI ($330$) - not enough time to compare

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