What to upgrade?

[Japanese Capacitor]

Three things adapter doesn't like: not plugging it fully; bending the cable near (<3cm) 12VHPWR plug; moving/bending horizontally plugged cable. Just plug it as hard as it's just possible; let it have as much space as it wants and everything should be all right Don't bother with changing PSU or getting some 12VHPWR cable.

I have mine limited at 120 fps in the 3D settings. I put that in since the game fried several GPUs in the first test. I just increased it to 125, made no difference. Still capped at 116 it seems like. Should I try to remove the cap or put it higher?

If it's not limiter, it's a game or CPU bottleneck. More likely bottleneck, but to be sure you can search for similar videos people having stronger CPUs and playing this location (whatever the resolution or GPU, seeing there higher fps is all you need). But it's generally not that bad, because you seem most of the time almost fully feeding your monitor. One thing is, as I warned before, not using GPU to it's full potential to the point of weaker 4070 being likely to give the same result. Ofc hard to say how about noise and temperatures. In the end of the day if you are satisfied with fps and smoothness you get and still plan to play only DIV, I would keep this CPU until something other motivate you to change it. In modern games it sucks, but if it satisfies you in DIV, it's obciously better to change it with some future one, not current.

BTW you installed newest drivers dedicated to 4070Ti?

[Foggy]

Three things adapter doesn't like: not plugging it fully; bending the cable near (<3cm) 12VHPWR plug; moving/bending horizontally plugged cable. Just plug it as hard as it's just possible; let it have as much space as it wants and everything should be all right Don't bother with changing PSU or getting some 12VHPWR cable.

Ok!

If it's not limiter, it's a game or CPU bottleneck. More likely bottleneck, but to be sure you can search for similar videos people having stronger CPUs and playing this location (whatever the resolution or GPU, seeing there higher fps is all you need). But it's generally not that bad, because you seem most of the time almost fully feeding your monitor.

I thought it was really strange that it was capped like that. I did two things, did a clean install of the driver and messed with the FPS settings in RiveaStatistics. I found this thread about all games being capped at 116 https://linustechtips.com/topic/471292- ... all-games/. Turned out it was the RiveaStatistics server that messed it up.

Anyway. After all this, I went back to try DIV, but alas, the server slam weekend just ended

[Japanese Capacitor]

You don't need Afterburner and Riva to see stats like that. Your GPU has dedicated ASUS GPU Tweak which also has OSD showing values like GPU Usage etc. It's similar type of software - here you can also tweak various parameters of card like power consumption, change fan curve or switch between some ready presets. Additionally (in case you didn't notice) your card has bios switch on it which changes fan curve, but switch it only when computer is off and before applying some changes in GPU Tweak.

https://www.asus.com/campaign/GPU-Tweak-III/

[Foggy]

[/quote]

You don't need Afterburner and Riva to see stats like that. Your GPU has dedicated ASUS GPU Tweak which also has OSD showing values like GPU Usage etc

Excellent! I got it downloaded and set up. Only thing I am missing is average FPS and 1% low, but otherwise I like it.

I tried playing Diablo 3 and made a recording. I have to say I am surprised I am not getting 120 fps all the time. I mean, both the CPU and GPU running at less than 50% it looks like.

https://youtu.be/UYKSeZe5VDQ

I am not the only one though. I think it's just the game. Once you get into 1440p and above, most (all) people seem to drop below 100 from time to time.

Additionally (in case you didn't notice) your card has bios switch on it which changes fan curve, but switch it only when computer is off and before applying some changes in GPU Tweak.

I forgot about that. I guess I should do Q-mode. Is there a way to figure out what mode it is in without opening the case again?

[Japanese Capacitor]

Excellent! I got it downloaded and set up. Only thing I am missing is average FPS and 1% low, but otherwise I like it.

GPU Tweak is rather limited compared to Afterburner with Riva Tuner combined, but it has some edge like one-click performance profiles or ability to control GPU fans divided (way to help with GPU reaching speeds creating irritating resonant sound). I mentioned it as alternative, because there's no reason forcing you to use it - it's not like using this type GPU producer's software is somehow recommended. At worst running both may cause problems like one not working correctly or not listening to your changes.

I tried playing Diablo 3 and made a recording. I have to say I am surprised I am not getting 120 fps all the time. I mean, both the CPU and GPU running at less than 50% it looks like.

Low CPU and GPU utilization simultanously is typical for playing old games on newer hardware - being limted by game's engine. However to be sure if it's such limitation or CPU bottleneck I would need to see how it runs on some stronger CPU than yours. The only time when you can be completely sure it's CPU bottleneck by looking only at it's utlization is when it hits 100%. The thing is, it's only secound and less common type of CPU bottleneck when it runs out of cores and threads, not one when it lacks performance to generate more frames than GPU can show.

I forgot about that. I guess I should do Q-mode. Is there a way to figure out what mode it is in without opening the case again?

Nope. Probably you have it on Perfomance - every TUF I've had in my hands, came from factory with bios set on P, but I don't know how about 4070 Ti. Seeing your temps during playing DIV, so guessing fan speeds closer to 1000rpm, I don't think much would change after switching it. You would for sure notice the difference when playing some fully utilizing game which makes card pulling 280W, so needing fans to work harder. You can download yourself MSI Kombustor, choose Stress Test in some high resolution (4K should cut it) and then see for yourself true face of your card and it's bioses It generally should be executed after purchase in case of eventual returing it instead of later bothering with some RMA's - see if not broken somehow, see if coilwhine is on acceptable level

[Foggy]

Time for a small update and maybe pull the trigger on some stuff

Diablo IV is right around the corner, so I hope to see some benchmarks from the game to better understand what performs well.

The CPU
I think I will end up with one of these: The i5 12600K, the i5 13400 or the i5 13500. With or without a GPU I guess. They all have similar performance. Unless DIV favors one of the other in a meaningful way, I am leaning towards the i5 12600K as it is the cheaper option for me right now. I recognize that the best match for my GPU probably is the i5 13600K. Being the only true Raptor Lake processor I would like to get it, but I just don't like how hot it gets.

Is this a good CPU short list?
Should I settle for F versions if I can? I don't do any of this photo editing or what not that can take advantage of the internal GPU.

The RAM
We are also thinking it's a good idea to move all the DDR4 RAM over to one computer and buy 2x16GB of DDR5 ram for the other computer. For this purpose, I have been looking at this ram G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 6000 (PC5 48000) Desktop Memory Model F5-6000J3040F16GX2-RS5K https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288 ... 6820374369. Seems like a good price right now.

Good RAM option or should I look for something else?

The motherboards, AKA problem area.
This also means I need two different motherboards, one that supports DDR4 RAM and one that supports DDR5 RAM. I feel these motherboards are just a mess. I have no idea what to look for. Trying to make some sense of it, i started on a list of motherboard wants and needs.

I believe I need a lot of connectivity.
Wi-Fi, I know I want Wi-Fi for easy tethering with my phone when my cable connection is down.
In addition I have the following USB connection needs

• 2 for my corsair keyboard

• 1 for my mouse

• 1 for a DAC for hifi headphones

• 1 for external self-powered speakers

• 1 usb c for headset with mic

• 1 for my webcam

• 1 usb for hub on Monitor

I guess my external speakers could hook up through Bluetooth and I think my DAC as an optical input option. Regardless, it all adds up.

To further complicate matters, I would ideally like to have support for my two M.2. SATA SSDs, but I expect that will not be so easy to find. We like the idea of being able to add one or two M.2 PCIe SSDs as well.

One board that popped up on my radar here was the AsusTUF GAMING H670-PRO WIFI D4.

https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E1681311953 ... klink=true

There should be a version that supports DDR5 as well. I really don't like the B boards, because I think they don't have the connectivity I want.

[Japanese Capacitor]

Does it really work that bad that you need to upgrade?

Keep in mind few things:

- non-K CPUs happen being more problematic in hitting high RAM frequencies due to having their RAM voltage locked. It means that you can happen to have headache here or just leave on the table priced premium performance uplift. Enabling XMP combined with changing (lowering) only frequency should solve the headache, but it's still secound option. I personally had problems with paired with DDR4 12900 and 12700, but first one with 128GB and secound 64GB, so bar for hardware was put even higher. They handled 3000 and 3200 speeds, so you SHOULD BE fine with your owned kit, even making it 4x8. Hard to say how with DDR5.

- afaik non-Z 700 boards don't allow to undervolt CPU. If board happen to feed it with unhealthy voltages (what isn't uncommon), you have unsolvable problem of not only temps higher than norm, but also dicreasing lifespan of your chip. I don't know how about 600 non-Z boards or mixing it with 12th gen CPUs. And I'm not sure if you should worry with not so intensive CPUs as locked i5s, but keep it in mind.

So welcome to the world of sensible non-K chips and non-Z boards It's not some no-go, but just more likely to cause headaches.

- integrated GPU is worth having if you don't have spare discrete GPU

And don't bother about temperatures or power consumption of whatever CPU you mentioned. Gaming power consumption, so temepratures are waaay lower than usual numbers from reviews where they were stresstested or rendering.

[Foggy]

Does it really work that bad that you need to upgrade?

It works quite well Better than ever in fact. I am very pleased with this new GPU. I will wait and see what the DIV game experience brings. Just trying to be prepared! If Blizzard's own requirements are anything to go by, I expect to want to add RAM and upgrade my CPU.

So welcome to the world of sensible non-K chips and non-Z boards It's not some no-go, but just more likely to cause headaches.

I spent yesterday looking more closely at motherboards and moved in the direction of a Z chipset as well. The price difference is just not that big (read 0) and the H boards are just overall a worse deal. I never considered the B-chipset a viable alterrnativ.

Am I to take your comments about the locked CPUs and RAM as a bad idea in general, as in more likely to cause headaches, or were your comments tied to combining a non-K CPU with a non-Z motherboard?

Regardless, I am leaning towards the i5 12600K, which of course is an unlocked CPU. I took another look at the i5 13600K. The key takeaway for me from looking at various Youtube videos of different games is that the performance is not that big at 1440p and 4K, and that the i5 13600K does run a bit warmer. I am sure this can be managed, but right now, I really don't think I will feel like it's worth the extra 90 USD.

Upgrading on PC to DDR 5 RAM is about 100 USD more expensive for us than just to stay with two PCs at DDR 4 RAM. Compare:

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i5-12600K 3.7 GHz 10-Core Processor ($199.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI MAG Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI DDR4 ATX LGA1700 Motherboard ($239.99 @ B&H)
Memory: *G.Skill Ripjaws V 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($63.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $503.97
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
*Lowest price parts chosen from parametric criteria
Generated by PCPartPicker 2023-05-30 17:18 EDT-0400

vs

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i5-12600K 3.7 GHz 10-Core Processor ($199.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI MAG Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI ATX LGA1700 Motherboard ($220.00 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws S5 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-6000 CL30 Memory ($124.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $544.98
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2023-05-30 17:20 EDT-0400

It looks like the price difference is only USD 40, but that is due in part to the odd pricing of the DDR5 motherboard being cheaper than the DDR4 motherboard in the US. Here I would not be able to get that price and the difference would be about 100 USD. You can actually click the link and choose different countries in PCpartspicker to see the different pricing

- integrated GPU is worth having if you don't have spare discrete GPU

Ok

[Japanese Capacitor]

Does it really work that bad that you need to upgrade?

It works quite well Better than ever in fact. I am very pleased with this new GPU. I will wait and see what the DIV game experience brings. Just trying to be prepared! If Blizzard's own requirements are anything to go by, I expect to want to add RAM and upgrade my CPU.

Fine, no new CPUs on the horizon, so we can plan some upgrade if it happened worth it. There should arrive some tests when this game launches - it's one big and coming from legendary series. Btw fun fact: first Diablo was the first game I've ever bought. And I remember it costed shocking money - 200% of typical pc game's price then (I don't remember anything costing even close) and 30% of polish national minimum (monthly) net wage in '99 :]

Am I to take your comments about the locked CPUs and RAM as a bad idea in general, as in more likely to cause headaches, or were your comments tied to combining a non-K CPU with a non-Z motherboard?

Locked CPUs - the faster RAM you pair it with, the lower chances it handles it. But I gave an easy fix above, so I wouldn't worry too much here
Non-Z boards - potential problem with lack of undervolting on B760 boards (potential because I was not interested enough to dig if there's some walkaround or some B760 boards allowing it somehow)

Regardless, I am leaning towards the i5 12600K, which of course is an unlocked CPU. I took another look at the i5 13600K. The key takeaway for me from looking at various Youtube videos of different games is that the performance is not that big at 1440p and 4K, and that the i5 13600K does run a bit warmer. I am sure this can be managed, but right now, I really don't think I will feel like it's worth the extra 90 USD.

Don't suggest with performance differences in high resolutions. Pair these CPU with card stronger than used and differences shown in lower resolutions will come to higher one. The same goes with faster RAM which works the same as faster CPU. But with you we have it simple - as we agreed, DIV-only performance matters, so determining choices.

About components choice, let's have everything clear and choose CPU first. But one thing about MSI board - there were problems with ethernet controller they used in these boards (Intel 1225-V), there are problems with 1226 and I haven't heard about them both being solved - you can dig for it if you want to know hard And I generally would go with only ASRock or ASUS boards.

[Foggy]

Btw fun fact: first Diablo was the first game I've ever bought. And I remember it costed shocking money - 200% of typical pc game's price then (I don't remember anything costing even close) and 30% of polish national minimum (monthly) net wage in '99 :]

That's horrible! I can't imagine. At lot has changed since then in Poland!

But one thing about MSI board - there were problems with ethernet controller they used in these boards (Intel 1225-V), there are problems with 1226 and I haven't heard about them both being solved - you can dig for it if you want to know hard And I generally would go with only ASRock or ASUS boards.

I read about this being an issue with Asus cards as well. At least I think I did.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ASUS/comments/ ... ood_avoid/

After reading all this, I figured go with a card with no Wi-Fi and just get an m2 Wi-Fi card, but I did not see any good options last night.

I also saw that the MSI card hand an Intel chip and was non to happy about it.

[Japanese Capacitor]

That's horrible! I can't imagine. At lot has changed since then in Poland!

Another fun fact: my first pc in '99 costed six mentioned minimum national wages and I mean tower alone, another three or four wages for peripherals like monitor or e.g (being so damn ninentees) joystick For comparison current mimimum wage will buy the cheapest options of 4070 or 8-9 units of DIV, so there's some progress. A lot has changed and we had a lot to make up after USSR, but now we stand in the place where Ukraine would stand if they happened doing things right like us. For more than ten years we are safe and civilised (Western-like) country, not wealthiest, but having beautiful piece of planet and not having Western and Eastern problems :]

About issue with Intel LAN, afaik all boards, no matter the brand, are likely to have problem of random disconnecting. I recommended ASUS and ASRock due to usually finding their boards (and software) better than MSI or Gigabyte. Every board is some budget spent on various features it consist of and A-guys tend to offer better compositions. Plus e.g. I don't like MSI's Windows software or bios setting not letting fans reacting to changing speed waaay less rapidly or if we talk about Gigabyte it's similar, but look also at their site and see odd pattern of almost always revising everything without making clear what was changed. I remember example when I was comparing revisons of their B550 board and by specs they differed only with USB C moved from the internal to external or opposite, but some polish reviewer pointed that they also changed power delivery to weaker one - no info from GB, so it's like these boards may happen not fully being the ones you know from the reviews :] ASRock and ASUS are not always perfect, but I have just noticeably less complains.

EDIT: One thought crossed my mind now with your resigning from Wi-fi. Afaik this problem is with wired connection only, so don't you confuse it with Wi-fi?

[Foggy]

EDIT: One thought crossed my mind now with your resigning from Wi-fi. Afaik this problem is with wired connection only, so don't you confuse it with Wi-fi?

You are right. I got confused

[Japanese Capacitor]

No problem, something felt wrong to me, so now we have it clear :] And you plan connecting to net with wire or Wi-fi? (sorry if answered before, but I don't remember :>) It's always better to use wired connection and Wi-fi boards usually add cost premium, but having built-in Wifi and Bluetooth may just come in handy with connecting to various devices. Especially these kind of devices which you use not often enough to encourage you to bother with buying addon Wi-fi card to make it only more convenient. Like I've never felt the need of Wi-fi board, but one I liked the most happened to be Wi-fi-only and after not long I appreciated connecting via Wi-fi to printer in another room instead of carrying this damn brick close enough for cable (~5 times a year) :]

[Foggy]

Since I don't have a wireless card, I use a wired connection all the time. Even if I had a wireless card, I would use a wired connection 99,999+ % of the time. There are two situations where I would use WI-Fi. One situation would be to be able to easily switch my connection to a VPN router without having to move the cord. The other is in the case where my ISP goes down. In those situations, I would like to tether cellular data from my phone. I don't like the hassle of connecting my phone to my computer though a USB connection; it ties my phone to my computer and only one device can tether the data from the cell phone.

I did end up buying a Bluetooth USB “stick” just to connect my phone to my computer to have easy access to some apps on my phone from my computer.

Edit* Printer. I understand. I think the wife ended up hooking the printer up to our NAS.

[Japanese Capacitor]

Fine, so let's sum everything up:

CPU: I would for sure go with 13500 over 12600K(F). In Poland comparable money for both, but 13500 is just better from many angles. And I don't think that paying 13600K premium is worth in your case - you have "only" 4070 Ti and DIV doesn't seem CPU intensive, so both make it less likely to see performance gains. Generally the stronger CPU you buy, the better it serves you (more frames, smoother), so the more it delays need to upgrade, but your DIV-only case is different and I would personally go with 13500. For the same reason I wouldn't go lower with e.g. 13400.

boards: you need two boards, one DDR4, one DDR5, but both Wi-fi? These two M2 SATA drives you mentioned mean one drive for each board or two for one of them? Generally think about all of your connector needs besides USB ones you mentioned before. E.g. some optical audio or whatever internal.
Don't you need any new storage? Newer PCie 4.0 load games a little faster and generally provide even smoother Windows experience.

I could use links you gave before to check for some nice deals for mobos and RAM. I don't know if it's worth considering usually cheaper Z690 boards - they will need bios update to just work with 13th gen CPUs. Somebody needs to do it (easy), but it also needs tools: 12th gen CPU or having (rather more premium) board with bios flashback feature. Bigger polish stores sell such service with the boards, but I don't know how about yours and how much it is (so when it calculates to go with somehow cheaper Z690).

[Foggy]

Fine, so let's sum everything up:

Great!

CPU: I would for sure go with 13500 over 12600K(F). In Poland comparable money for both, but 13500 is just better from many angles. And I don't think that paying 13600K premium is worth in your case - you have "only" 4070 Ti and DIV doesn't seem CPU intensive, so both make it less likely to see performance gains. Generally the stronger CPU you buy, the better it serves you (more frames, smoother), so the more it delays need to upgrade, but your DIV-only case is different and I would personally go with 13500. For the same reason I wouldn't go lower with e.g. 13400.

Right now the price difference up to 13600KF from 13500 is just 35€ here. If that holds, I feel I might as well step up to a true Raptor lake CPU, e.g. the i5 13600KF.

https://prisguiden.no/kategorier/proses ... rice%20asc

Just curious though, what makes you say that "13500 is just better from many angles"? You think the extra cores and higher cash makes up for the lower frequency? And what happened to your rant about buying locked CPUs?

Link comparing the two CPUs: https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/i ... i5-12600kf

Regardless, I agree with you not to go for the i5 13400.

boards: you need two boards, one DDR4, one DDR5, but both Wi-fi?

Yes.

hese two M2 SATA drives you mentioned mean one drive for each board or two for one of them?

We have a total of 4 M.2 SATA drives. https://pcpartpicker.com/product/VrH48d ... mzn5e500bw
Since our current motherboard only supported 1 M.2 SATA and 1 M.2 PCIe, we had to buy two adapter cards to fit the last M.2 SATA drives.

Generally think about all of your connector needs besides USB ones you mentioned before. E.g. some optical audio or whatever internal.

I guess I need a physical PCIe slot to fit the adapter for the M.2 SATA drive. Unless the new motherboard would support the two M.2 SATA drives that is. In addition we each have a 5TB regular drive we use to store movies and stuff like that. See link in for all this in my second post at the start of this long thread

Optical drive would be nice to use for my DAC (Schiit Modi 3).
I also think it would be nice to have 4 M.2 slots to fit in extra SSDs like you talk about. Maybe one more PCIe 4.0 would be nice. I have not really thought about it. I have one or two mystery 256 GB M.2 SSDs pulled from some Lenovo laptops laying about, but I doubt they are PCIe 4.

The only other thing I can think of then is the USB slots on the case it self. From what I can see there are two of them.

I could use links you gave before to check for some nice deals for mobos and RAM.

Great! Just a heads up. I ended up not trusting their filtering on the z690 and z790 motherboards. I kept finding more boards by typing in the name of a board directly into the search field.

I don't know if it's worth considering usually cheaper Z690 boards - they will need bios update to just work with 13th gen CPUs. Somebody needs to do it (easy), but it also needs tools: 12th gen CPU or having (rather more premium) board with bios flashback feature. Bigger polish stores sell such service with the boards, but I don't know how about yours and how much it is (so when it calculates to go with somehow cheaper Z690).

Looking for a z690 motherboard would only make sense if the board has a bios flashback feature like you say. From what I recall this feature is mostly found on Gigabyte cards. I have only seen one store that provide this service here. It's not a big box store, but looks more like a very interdependent store. Usually rather pricey with some occasional good deals. https://www.vingerdata.no/index.php?rou ... 635&ref=pg. He charges about 18€ to upgrade the bios, so yeah, probably not worth it.

[Japanese Capacitor]

Right now the price difference up to 13600KF from 13500 is just 35€ here. If that holds, I feel I might as well step up to a true Raptor lake CPU, e.g. the i5 13600KF.

Paying 35 pounds more for faster 13600KF may be considered as worth it. It's completely relative, so your decision.

Just curious though, what makes you say that "13500 is just better from many angles"? You think the extra cores and higher cash makes up for the lower frequency? And what happened to your rant about buying locked CPUs?

Link comparing the two CPUs: https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/i ... i5-12600kf

Regardless, I agree with you not to go for the i5 13400.

I wasn't ranting non-K CPUs, but explaining you how they differ Equipped with the same RAM 13500 tends to be a little faster than 12600K in games, have noticeably better multicore performance (if ever needed, but in fact such affects not only professional workloads, but also a lot of little things we casually do on our computers) and more e-cores, which may get useful in te future - they are new technology and Intel still works with Microsoft on Windows utilizing them better. Power cosumption-wise they should be similar, especially in gaming, but as always with new generations, I would be surprised if 13500 not being stronger when both power-limited to any value.

And probably once again: stop using these hard to say how working comparison tools. Only reviews count, at best from reputable sources. Ofc sometimes they need knowing how things work to get to right points looking at numbers.

I would leave rest for a while, because look what I found:

https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Diablo-4 ... 1421206/3/

According to them, 8600K (what is almost the same as your CPU) when CPU limited (so in worse case scenario) gives similar fps to 3090 Ti (what can be compared to 4070 Ti) in 3440x1440. It means that this CPU feeds it and you are not likely to notice much, if any difference with upgrading it. For sure with stronger CPU you would get lower fps drops, but with them being on the level of 100 fps with 8600K and close to your refresh rate I really doubt you would notice a difference. I would wait for other CPU tests, but assuming this one is solid, I personally wouldn't change your CPU (if you plan to play DIV only). One thing to consider is, such numbers don't show whole truth, so if you get some noticeable fps drops, new CPU could solve it, but looking at test numbers it's much more likely that's game's problem, not your hardware.

[Foggy]

Foggy wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:11 pm
Right now the price difference up to 13600KF from 13500 is just 35€ here. If that holds, I feel I might as well step up to a true Raptor lake CPU, e.g. the i5 13600KF.

Paying 35 pounds more for faster 13600KF may be considered as worth it. It's completely relative, so your decision.

I think the 35€ that separate the two would be worth the extra money.

I would leave rest for a while, because look what I found:

https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Diablo-4 ... 1421206/3/

Great find! I have been looking for something like this!

According to them, 8600K (what is almost the same as your CPU) when CPU limited (so in worse case scenario) gives similar fps to 3090 Ti (what can be compared to 4070 Ti) in 3440x1440. It means that this CPU feeds it and you are not likely to notice much, if any difference with upgrading it. For sure with stronger CPU you would get lower fps drops, but with them being on the level of 100 fps with 8600K and close to your refresh rate I really doubt you would notice a difference.

My current CPU is the i5 8600K. So my CPU is included in this test

I'll see if I can upload a video of game play on my PC, but for now my numbers are like this: Outside of town my FPS are at 120 all the time. My average FPS is 119, probably because my 1% lows are quite bad. They vary from high 50s to mid-70s depending on the area I am in. My FPS seems to mostly drop whenever I do something new. Like open my inventory, enter a town or toggle the big map. A tad annoying, but not a big problem. I guess this is a CPU bottleneck issue. This is also how pcgameshardware.de describes what it's like playing the game with an older CPU.

Of course, the values I am getting when I am actually playing the game (like moving around and fighting) are very nice. Your description is spot on. I am fine, and I agree nothing major would be gained from upgrading. I am of course still tempted to do an upgrade, but I will sleep on it

BTW, I ended up turning off DLSS 3, all of it. The game just looks much better without it. It was a grey veil lifted from the game when I turned it off.

And probably once again: stop using these hard to say how working comparison tools. Only reviews count, at best from reputable sources. Ofc sometimes they need knowing how things work to get to right points looking at numbers.

I only included the link because the page (eventually) gave some straight facts about the two CPUs I wanted to compare. Scrolling down we find "Specifications, Full technical specification of Intel Core i5 13500 and i5 12600KF. Like number of cores, threads, cash and frequencies. PCgameshardware.de point to number of threads and cores being important to the smoothness of the game. They write "All in all, you'll play Diablo 4 smoothly with a CPU that can handle at least eight threads at the same time. If, on the other hand, you are aiming for stable, over 100 fps in every situation, you should call an eight-core your own. With Zen 3 and Alder Lake at the latest, you are on the safe side, who relies on Raptor Lake or Zen 4 anyway."

I take this to mean i5 13500 is likely to have an advantage over the i5 12600K since it has more cores, more threads and more cash. This was just the kind of information I was hoping would come out after the game launched. Of course, PCgameshardware.de did not compare the two CPUs we were discussing.

[Japanese Capacitor]

My current CPU is the i5 8600K. So my CPU is included in this test

I'll see if I can upload a video of game play on my PC, but for now my numbers are like this: Outside of town my FPS are at 120 all the time. My average FPS is 119, probably because my 1% lows are quite bad. They vary from high 50s to mid-70s depending on the area I am in. My FPS seems to mostly drop whenever I do something new. Like open my inventory, enter a town or toggle the big map. A tad annoying, but not a big problem. I guess this is a CPU bottleneck issue. This is also how pcgameshardware.de describes what it's like playing the game with an older CPU.

OK, somehow I remembered that you have locked one, 8600, but as always with non-K vs K, it's negligible difference. Just great that you can see the numbers of exactly your CPU :] About fps, don't you have any limiter on anymore? Again this 120fps is suspcious and not aligning with any numbers from PCGH.
About the problem with fps drops when something new, it's hard to say if it's hardware weakness or game being not the best optimized yet, but what they say below frametime graph about amount of cores and threads affecting performance is how things work. Two comparably strong (generating similar fps) CPUs, but one having more cores and threads - today no difference, in some point in the future one having more c/t will make a difference (noticeably better fps and frametimes). Unknown is always how big it will be and more importantly how far is this future. This tendency started with first multicore CPUs in 2000's and slowly progresses with making bigger jumps when games written for new consoles only used to start arriving on pc. The same used to be with needed RAM and VRAM.

BTW, I ended up turning off DLSS 3, all of it. The game just looks much better without it. It was a grey veil lifted from the game when I turned it off.

I don't know if you know the difference between DLSS and Frame Generation (called DLSS3), but if not, just get to know it

I only included the link because the page (eventually) gave some straight facts about the two CPUs I wanted to compare. Scrolling down we find "Specifications, Full technical specification of Intel Core i5 13500 and i5 12600KF. Like number of cores, threads, cash and frequencies. PCgameshardware.de point to number of threads and cores being important to the smoothness of the game. They write "All in all, you'll play Diablo 4 smoothly with a CPU that can handle at least eight threads at the same time. If, on the other hand, you are aiming for stable, over 100 fps in every situation, you should call an eight-core your own. With Zen 3 and Alder Lake at the latest, you are on the safe side, who relies on Raptor Lake or Zen 4 anyway."

I take this to mean i5 13500 is likely to have an advantage over the i5 12600K since it has more cores, more threads and more cash. This was just the kind of information I was hoping would come out after the game launched. Of course, PCgameshardware.de did not compare the two CPUs we were discussing.

For checking or comparing specs of whatever hardware ( and generally whatever ) always use official sites - it's more realiable for obvious reasons.

Advantages 13500 has over 12600K are ones tending to make CPU aging better, being likely to increase the difference it makes in the future. Question how much and how far, but for the same price it makes 13500 obvious choice :]

[Foggy]

Here is a link to the video I just recorded from DIV. The volume is kind of loud, so you might want to turn your speakers down.

https://youtu.be/wVKN2VNMmA0

I am using G-sync and the FPS is capped at 120. No DLSS or frame generation.

[Japanese Capacitor]

Most of the time fps and frametime numbers look really well, but CPU gets overhelmed with it's usage when showing equipment of during more intensive fights. It may be six cores of similar potential to your CPU causing this problem or it's just game being broken. Adding here what PCGH said, it's likely that changing the CPU would solve it, so if you decided to do it, let's choose the parts :] Ofc we can wait more for other performance reviews, but I wouldn't expect many testing CPUs - this game is far from being cosidered as CPU intensive and usually only the worst in this regard get such analyses.

BTW In terms of highest possible smoothness, in Nvidia Control Panel, in 3D settings it's worth to enable Low Latency Mode, set it on Ultra and toggle V-sync on (instead of using fps limiters) with also using G-Sync. Ofc combined with disabling any in-game limiters or Vsync. Also there was recently really nice RTX-only addition which debuted quite silently, just combined with the drivers. It's hidden also in Panel, in Video section and secound one of two parts of it. I don't know how it's named in your language, but it should be something like RTX Video Enhancing, the one with the toggle ON/OFF and Quality preset to choose from 1 to 4. Toggle it on, set to 4. This thing uses AI techniques to enhance quality of low quality videos and I find it overally in plus.

[Foggy]

Most of the time fps and frametime numbers look really well, but CPU gets overhelmed with it's usage when showing equipment of during more intensive fights. It may be six cores of similar potential to your CPU causing this problem or it's just game being broken. Adding here what PCGH said, it's likely that changing the CPU would solve it, so if you decided to do it, let's choose the parts :]

I think it would be a good idea to go ahead and chose the parts

Here is a link to another meta site for computer parts prices in Norway. It includes a few more stores and has a different UI. https://www.prisjakt.no/category.php?k=1243

Made the changes you suggested in the Nvidia control panel. I use English for all my systems btw. It was easy to find the RTX Video Enhancement. Your description is spot on Going to try all the new settings later tonight!

[Japanese Capacitor]

Here is a link to another meta site for computer parts prices in Norway. It includes a few more stores and has a different UI. https://www.prisjakt.no/category.php?k=1243

This thing seems very good with filters and comparing the prices in various stores.

Going to try all the new settings later tonight!

Settings I advised seem to be the best in terms of smoothness, input lag etc. There're many tests in this regard, many come from different times (so e.g. lack availability of NULL), so have different results and opinions, but it's what just seems to me being the best after summing it all up and how I personally have it configured.


Coming back to the motherboard it looks to me a little messy with the drives. Let's type here all of the drives you want to use with particular board. I understood that both use two M2 SATA drives on PCIe extension (four drives in total). Every board also needs to connect one HDD you typed in first post. How many and what type (SATA or NVMe) of other drives you want to install next for given board? Do you plan to install even more in the future? Keep in mind that every next M2 slot needed pushes you into more premium boards. Non-M2 SATA drives, especially already fast and silent SSDs are additional way of increasing storage, especially one destined to be archive only, so not really needing advantage of fast transfer between NVMe drives. And you can always make any spare drive external USB one with just buying dedicated case.

How many USBs and what type (A or C) you need from external panel of the motherboard (for given board ofc)? To have some room for future expandability assume that you won't be using case's front panel ones. 29th May you typed all devices which was 7 Type A and one Type C. What about your next thought with external speakers and DAC you mentioned earlier using Type A and then something about Toslink connection. Do you need Toslink connector among audio ones like you have it on your Z370?

And how about motheboard's built-in audio? Do these Schiit uses it or not, so it completely doesn't matter? I'm not really into audio stuff, so just hope you know better your needs here and boards with premium audio cost damn much. E.g mine, so already not budget board has just budget audio solution and it's common for the price, but it's no difference to me, because my SoundBlasterX G6 does whole job in this regard.

I think that these drives and USB things are everything we need to make clear before I start to check for the parts, but think if you don't have anything esle what should be added.

[Foggy]

Coming back to the motherboard it looks to me a little messy with the drives. Let's type here all of the drives you want to use with particular board.

Quite so Each board should ideally be able to fit our current setup:

PCPartPicker Part List

Storage: Samsung 850 Evo 500 GB M.2-2280 SATA Solid State Drive ($256.11 @ Amazon)
Storage: Samsung 850 Evo 500 GB M.2-2280 SATA Solid State Drive ($256.11 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Green 5 TB 3.5" 5400 RPM Internal Hard Drive

Our current motherboard did not support two M.2 SATA SSDs, so for each PC we had to buy and install one PCIe adapter card with a M.2 slot for the second SATA SSD. Messy, and not at all ideal for airflow, but that is what we had to do. If it's not possible to mount two sata SSDs directly on the motherboard I guess I will reuse my PCIe adapter card.

I understood that both use two M2 SATA drives on PCIe extension (four drives in total).

Not quite sure what you mean by "on PCIe extention", but I hope the explanation above clears up what needs to connect and how things are connected today. To be clear, I have no M.2 PCIe SSDs today. All four SSDs are SATA.

Every board also needs to connect one HDD you typed in first post.

Yes, every board also needs to connect one HDD.

Now for future needs.

How many and what type (SATA or NVMe) of other drives you want to install next for given board? Do you plan to install even more in the future? Keep in mind that every next M2 slot needed pushes you into more premium boards. Non-M2 SATA drives, especially already fast and silent SSDs are additional way of increasing storage, especially one destined to be archive only, so not really needing advantage of fast transfer between NVMe drives. And you can always make any spare drive external USB one with just buying dedicated case.

I have not thought about this at all. We have a NAS and lots of USB external hard drives. So currently not plans to add any more regular spinning hard drives.

You did mention we could get a PCIe 4 SSD for the OS. We can do that so lets plan for that. Does a Wi-Fi card take up a M.2 slot? In that case I think we are looking at 4 M.2. slots? We both like the idea of being able to add extra SSDs in M.2 slots. The boards I have been looking at have three of four M.2. slots. Four is nice, three might be acceptable.

How many USBs and what type (A or C) you need from external panel of the motherboard (for given board ofc)? To have some room for future expandability assume that you won't be using case's front panel ones. 29th May you typed all devices which was 7 Type A and one Type C. What about your next thought with external speakers and DAC you mentioned earlier using Type A and then something about Toslink connection. Do you need Toslink connector among audio ones like you have it on your Z370?

From here on out the needs differ. Lets split my board from wife's board.

My board should have between 8 and 10 USB slots. One type C is fine. Lets forget about the Toslink. I don't use it and USB-A is better in the end (less jitter).

Wife's board She should be fine with between 6 and 8 USB slots. One type C would be nice. No need for Toslink.

Why do you say we would not use the USBs at the front of the case? Because they are crap? You are right, I don't really use them except to maybe charge my phone or something like that.

And how about motheboard's built-in audio? Do these Schiit uses it or not, so it completely doesn't matter? I'm not really into audio stuff, so just hope you know better your needs here and boards with premium audio cost damn much. E.g mine, so already not budget board has just budget audio solution and it's common for the price, but it's no difference to me, because my SoundBlasterX G6 does whole job in this regard.

Built in audio is really not a priority. I bypass it completely (like you) and my wife could do the same on hers. She has one external speaker hooked up through the line out slot, be she has a USB DAC she can use.

I think that these drives and USB things are everything we need to make clear before I start to check for the parts, but think if you don't have anything esle what should be added.

Nothing else to add! Lets do it!

I did send you a PM with regard to buying stuff in the US, just keeping that option open.

[Japanese Capacitor]

Let's start with the boards:

DDR4 https://www.prisjakt.no/product.php?p=7198836

DDR5 https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z790%20 ... /index.asp

Ones which I find adequate to 13600K, your needs and use case. The only downiside is them not having as much USBs as you wanted, but paying premium for higher-end board only to get more USBs isn't clever when there're dirt cheap USB hubs. You will also utilize your PCIe M2 adapters - it's usually at best only one M2 SATA-compatibile slot on the board (e.g. ASUS above). I gave ASRock official site due to not being able to find this board on prisjakt, so you should update me with the price and availability. I gave this recommendation basing on prices in Poland where you can find this board even for ~100 NOK cheaper than Asus' one. And I didn't mean front USBs being crap, but not counting them in case of having some spare ones to not need unplugging anything when needing to plug some pendrive or whatever, but once again - hubs.

RAM:

https://www.prisjakt.no/product.php?p=6460090

Important: always search/check RAM with it's code to avoid mistakes in shops specifications etc: CMK32GX5M2D6000C36

I assumed that you have and will utlize both owned 2x8 DDR4 kits with DDR4 board. This DDR5 is nice speed for the money - I wouldn't spend more in your case, but it's also a shame to buy some garbage for savings rather even not worth considering. This exact kit is also confirmed by ASRock on board's memory QVL list, so there should be no headache with XMP.

Drives:

https://www.prisjakt.no/product.php?p=5908472

https://www.prisjakt.no/product.php?p=5908470

Both are from the fastest 4.0 ones, quality and here for a while, so proven what is important with the drives. Renegade is marketed as kinda gaming-focused KC3000 successor, has some edge, but - like I did - just buy whatever cheaper. Comparing both on benchmark graphs is just funny. They also exist in 2TB versions, but I think that 1TB for OS and just DIV is more than enough.

You will also need monting kits for your Mugens:

https://www.prisjakt.no/search?search=SCMK-1700B

Availability is not the best, prices are quite high, so maybe it's worth to contact https://www.scythe-eu.com/. If I remember well, they told me they charge 8 euros (included shipping) for one.

[Foggy]

Great stuff! Thank you for making this list!

You did not include the CPU in your list, but I assume the recommendations are made with the i5 13600KF in mind. We discussed this already, just want to make sure we are on the same page. Should have ordered this CPU yesterday, went up 30 USD today.

The motherboards is the most problematic thing here. My initial reaction when I saw your suggestions, was that we are picking lower tier boards than I thought I would end up with - at least from those two brands. I do however agree with everything you say, and I understand I might overpay for extra USB slots. I've been skeptical about relying too much on USB hubs, thinking they would be slow and risk causing a traffic jam. That might just be unfounded though. I would note though that I think a higher tier Asus board (like a Tough series) would include more heat sinks for the M.2. slots, but of course, I can just add my own. My other reaction is that I have a feeling we are bending over backwards to avoid the Intel I225-V Ethernet problem. Maybe for good reason. I don't know. It's just crazy to me that Asus would make motherboards that can't talk properly with their own routers.

About the Asrock card you suggest. Prisjakt does not know that that this particular Asrock board exists. I did however find it at Prisguiden, a similar site. https://prisguiden.no/produkt/v/ElWv_lhxO6s?g=1

I feel the alternative for the DDR5 board is to step up to the ASRock Z790 Steel Legend WiFi, now record "cheap" at NOK 3351https://www.prisjakt.no/product.php?p=7198586

I'll get the Mugen stuff ordered. Are we sure the Mugen 5 with the fans we have will cool the i5 13600KF?

Looks like we are good to go for the rest. For the RAM and the drives I will just go with your recommendations. Just checking; Is clearing to the heat sink an issue here, or are is this not a concern? I could not find any information about the height the RAM. Based on what I learned when I built these machines, Mugen 5 Rev B has 43mm clearance to the bottom fin on the offset side - 55mm on the notched side.

[Foggy]

My other reaction is that I have a feeling we are bending over backwards to avoid the Intel I225-V Ethernet problem. Maybe for good reason. I don't know. It's just crazy to me that Asus would make motherboards that can't talk properly with their own routers.

Seems this is still a problem. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel ... nd-for-now

Ridicules. Having to find a DDR4 motherboard with Realtek nic seriously limits my options

[Japanese Capacitor]

I had 13600K(F) in mind, mentioned it in the beginning of previous post when talking about mobos.

These boards are not budget and are what I find reasonable to the point of spending more being in your case waste of money.
There's no need to be sceptical about USB hubs with devices you listed before. It's just about knowing that speed of connection is always determied by the slowest part of the given connection (e.g. USB port slower than flashdrive or opposite; USB hub slower than USB port it's plugged into). But maybe I don't know enough about USBs, so if you have anything undermining it, I would like to see it :]
About radiators, you need only one for PCIe 4.0 drive, because NVMe get hot under longer and more instensive load. No need of radiators for other drives you have and if you happened to get next NVMe drive in the future, so needed next radiator, cost of buying such is like 40 NOK, so way less than paying for higher-end board.
Your feelings about me avoiding Intel LAN was right, but it was also combined with avoding garbage called MSI and Gigabyte : )
Do you still feel the need of buying higher-end board? Better ask me about it, because I honestly see it as complete waste of money to the point of me preferring spending such premium on whatever other this computer will consist of

Don't worry with the Mugen and RAM. About it's cooling capabilities, it will be more than needed for gaming. On the other hand 13600K with its power consumption unlocked and during typical pro, multicore tasks like rendering is able to consume almost 200W, which will be on the edge of what Mugen can cool. But you can always lock it to be sure it'll never happen - the same as my 13900K being able to pull 300+W, my Ninja 5 being far from handling it, but me finding it totally not worth the pefromance uplift, noise needed to cool it (by however great new cooler) and roomheating, so locking it on 200W.

[Foggy]

But maybe I don't know enough about USBs, so if you have anything undermining it, I would like to see it :]

No special insights on USBs. I thought Linus had a comment once, but I can't find it. Maybe he was running many USB cords to his server room across his house or what not. Does not matter. I will not worry about this.

Your feelings about me avoiding Intel LAN was right, but it was also combined with avoding garbage called MSI and Gigabyte : )

Okay

Do you still feel the need of buying higher-end board? Better ask me about it, because I honestly see it as complete waste of money to the point of me preferring spending such premium on whatever other this computer will consist of

I feel this just about sums it up for me. I am not into doing stuff that is a complete waste of money.

Thank you for this last post! You answered all my questions and settled my worries!

I'll start buying the parts right away. I might wait a few days one some of the parts to see if any good discounts show up, but I'll try to have everything bought/ordered by the end of this weekend.

[Japanese Capacitor]

No special insights on USBs. I thought Linus had a comment once, but I can't find it. Maybe he was running many USB cords to his server room across his house or what not. Does not matter. I will not worry about this.

There may occur problems when plugging via hub some more power hungry devices or/and ones transferring data. That's why there are also hubs with external power and that's why it should be avoided using all kind of drives via hubs - for such devices you leave mobo's/case connectors.

I feel this just about sums it up for me. I am not into doing stuff that is a complete waste of money.

Thank you for this last post! You answered all my questions and settled my worries!

I'll start buying the parts right away. I might wait a few days one some of the parts to see if any good discounts show up, but I'll try to have everything bought/ordered by the end of this weekend.

With pcs, like with everything, it's just worth to know what you pay for and possible consequences of not paying. There's a lot of marketing bullshit well supported with all kind of numbers making differences which often are neglibible or just indistinguishable in reality. Nice example is this Renegade gaming drive - it scores the same as KC3000 it bases on and generally works not even a little different way than "non-gaming" drives. In fact here Kingston wants his piece of cake of "dedicated" PS5 drives.

About buying the parts, generally this time of year is always the best time to buy pc hardware and now especially RAM and drives are just dirt cheap. E.g. KC3000 used to cost more than twice the same time year ago :> Keep me informed with your impressions as process progresses :]