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Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:41 pm
by saiyajin
<< edited >>
Long message (which contained a list of alternative elements, questions and objective) that was here has been taken out as well suggested by members. I moved it to a post below. In case you are interested I can share also the prices with you.

Re: Best System Ever? 2month research complete & UR FEED

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:09 pm
by Rusty075
saiyajin wrote:I am a loyal reader of Siltent PC Review. I have learned much from reading the messages in this forum so I want to give back and see all of you what you think!!!
Apparently the "loyal reading" did not include the Posting Guidelines:
Posting Guidelines wrote:9. Cross posting - Please do not post the same question to multiple forums. Cross posting clutters up the forums and makes things like searching harder for other users. If you feel your question could fit in multiple forums, please pick the best one and post there.
I went through all the forums and deleted the 7 cross posts you made of this topic.

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:21 pm
by saiyajin
Apologies :oops:

This was my first post. It is true I have been reading your forums for almost 7 months (when I bought my first SFF from Shuttle).

As you can see I did not post it in all forums only in the ones that are relevant. The reason is that I believe that this message has parts that apply to other forums, which could interest other users. I have seen that overall this forum, the System Advice, would be the most appropiate but in number of posts is one of the less active forums.

So considering all the amount of time I have dedicated, the benefits that it could give to other members and me, the fact that this System Advice forum is not one of the most active, the applicable parts of this post for different forums (as you will see I did not post in all forums), ... In this case I dont think that this is a Black or White situation...

Please, could it be possible to have the posts that you just deleted back? I believe that it is a Win/Win situation for all.

Re: Best System Ever? 2month research complete & UR FEED

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:23 pm
by Tibors
saiyajin wrote:[..]
-Do you know if that motherboard has USB/FIREWIRE & audio headers to connect the front inputs (see accessories)in the case to the motherboard.
Two months research and you haven't found this page? :? ... &cat_id=77
Took me about one minute.

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:28 pm
by saiyajin
Yes. I saw that but as I am not familiar with the board I wanted to know if someone has tried it. (I had some problems in the past with the ASUSP800 and want to avoid this...) Am I doing something wrong by asking for confirmation?? Lets try to be a bit more productive in our feedback (and not assume things), I believe that it would benefit all of us...
Thank you! :wink:

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:52 pm
by Tibors
The feedback was very productive:

Quote straight from that page:
  • On-Board Peripherals include:
    - 1 floppy port supports 2 FDDs with 360K, 720K, 1.2M, 1.44M and 2.88Mbytes
    - 1 serial port (COM1)
    - 1 parallel port supports SPP/EPP/ECP mode
    - 1 IrDA connector for SIR/ASKIR/HPSIR
    - 1 audio port
    - 8 USB 2.0 ports (Rear x 4 / Front x 4)
    - 1 RJ45 LAN jack
    - 3 IEEE1394 port (Rear x 1 / Front x 2 header)
If that is not enough answer to your question, then that page also contains a link to the manual which contains a drawing of the motherboard lay-out.

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:02 pm
by Rusty075
If you have specific questions regarding specific components, then yes, those may merit their own thread in the separate forums. Post self-contained questions in those threads. Simply posting links to this thread is not an appropriate way to gather input, and only serves to clutter the forums.

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:05 pm
by MikeC
saiyajin --

There are way too many items you are asking about. Who in the world is going to sift through those lists just to tell you pros/cons of each? :roll:

If you have beeing reading SPCR for months, hopefully, this means you have read some of what I call "core articles" in the main site. If you are going to roll your own (quiet PC), you need to have a good understanding of the relationships between cooling, power, airflow, noise and price. Your choices and your list don't demonstrate this.

I suggest you go back to the drawing board and make a single system list with only a couple of alternative components. Or maybe just delete your second post. And don't put the price in front, it makes your post almost unreadable -- put it at the end.

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:23 pm
by Edward Ng
You are merely Saiya-jin? Russ and I achieved Supa' Saiya-jin 3 months ago!

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:29 pm
by saiyajin
Mike, you are probably right... too much information at the end may not be good. I took the price out, made it easier to read and moved the list of alternative components here (two long messages in a row did not make it easy to read), I also took out some components from the alternative list (I believe that in any case you may have a better suggestion and therefore members do not need the list). I would appreciate your feedback about the PC.... Believe me I have done my research, I agree that the alternative components may not necessary fit in a silent system but I just wanted to show them to you, the harcore enthusiast, to see if I could be wrong. The main questions are in Power Supply, Case, Raid configuration, and monitors.

Edward, as you are Supa' Saiya-jin then give me your advice, it will be well received :wink:

Here is the content I took out from my fist and second messages in the post:
My objectives are: To have 2 High Res. Monitors to work with the Dual DVI card, to enjoy the Harman Kardon Digital Amplifier DPR 1005, Projector Optoma H30 and Kef 2005.2 speakers (with a connection to the new PC) and from time to time to play latest game.

The questions that I have are:
1. Question already answered by Tibor.
2. What Raid configuration would you choose? Raid 0+1 (with 2 Samsung 160 for files + 2 WD Raptors for O.S/Apps.)?
3. Would you substite i.e. The power supply, case, monitor... from the original plan with one that is in the Alternatives list below

Alternatives to first list of components (most of these are in this list because they were too expensive, lower number of features or too much noise/heat. But there are some that could be considered better ... let me know if you would substitute one for the other in the initial list):
Motherboard Alternatives:
*Asus A8V-Deluxe/wifi-g AMD Skt939 K8T800PR 8X AGP DDR400
*MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum Motherboard (it has fan on northbridge!)
Fan/Cooler alternatives:
*Zalman 7000BCu Copper
*AcoustiFan 120mm
*Zalman ZM-2HC1 Heatpipe HDD Cooler
GPU alternatives:
*SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9600 Video Card, 256MB DDR (fanless) (9800 is too hot) (slower than the FX 5700)
*Gainward Ultra/980 SilentFX Professional (no fan!, passively cooled)
*GeForce FX 5700 256mb DDR with dual-DVI + VIVO)
*MSI FX5700-VT2DR256 (small fan)
PSU alternatives:
*NX-4090 Real Silent Power Supply 400 Watt
*Seasonic Super Silencer 460 watt RevA3
*Silentmaxx Fanless-Pro 503W PSU
*Enermax Whisper 2 -or- NoiseTaker EG475P-VE SFMA 470W ATX 12V v2
Cases Alternatives:
*Lian Li PC V-1100 Aluminium MIDI Tower
*Lian-Li PC-6070A Silent Aluminium midi case
LCD Monitor Alternatives:
*20" Iiyama ProLite E511S (16ms, 86W)
*Dell UltraSharp 2001FP (16ms)
*NEC MultiSync LCD2080UX+ BK (16ms, 54W)
Other alternatives:
*Kingston Hyper XPC-3200 (2x512) RAM (CL2)
*Creative Labs SoundBlaster AUDIGY2 ZS (MSI motherboard has already Digital Output)
*Gyration GP170-003 Ultra suite Keyboard+Mouse

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:44 am
by Straker
can't really comment on the mb, since i'd go with the neo2 k8n myself... should be more or less the same aside from chipset though.

Consider why you're choosing an s939 cpu/mb though; dual channel on an a64 doesn't typically make a huge difference, and aside from that you're basically paying $200 more for the same thing. If the reason is so you can, say, hopefully keep the same CPU if you upgrade to a PCIe mb later, it might be a better value to simply spend the money you save on s754 now on a new cpu later on when you want a new mb. Been wrestling with this myself for the last couple weeks, but I'll probably just go with s754, got an x800 pro a couple months ago so won't have any use for pcie for a while yet.
Check the MSI forums for recommended RAM, Corsair's almost always good but some a64 mbs are really picky/quirky.
If you're willing to tie up 4 drives in separate 0/1 arrays you might want to consider getting a proper controller and using RAID 5 instead. Actually, switching two raptors to normal HDs could probably save enough money right there for the controller.

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:51 am
by Edward Ng
Saiya-jn, since you attacked with multple rapid, small ki-burst questions, I shall counterattack in similar fashion...

2. Your OS/Apps drive will be incredibly fast with a single Raptor WD740GD; there is virtually zero benefit from running RAID 0 on a volume whose purposes is to serve up lot sof tiny files very quickly; the extremely short desktop access times of the Raptor already take care of that. For your A/V array, four 80GB Samsungs in RAID 0 with a larger stripe size, say 64-256KB, will outperform dual 160s. Four SP0812Ns and a single WD740GD together will still operate more quietly than dual WD740GDs and dual SP1614Ns. I'm assuming you need that much capacity; if you don't need a whole 320GB for A/V storage, consider using just a pair of SP0812Ns or three SP0812Ns; the fewer the number of platters per drive, the lower the acoustics is per drive.

3. For your CPU cooler, see if Thermalright's XP-120 fits your board; if it does, use it in conjunction with a Globe 120mm fan from MNPC-Tech. It's the same as an AcoustiFan AF120CT (made by Globe), with the thermal control and everything, at 1/3 the price, and without the risk of getting a bad sample (there have been numerous reports of inconsistent manufacturing on the 120mm AcoustiFan).

If you plan to use a heatpipe cooler/isolator, the ZM-2HC2 is newer and better than the ZM-2HC1. I only recommend using one, for the one Raptor. For the Samsungs, suspend them using something like StretchMagic or bungee cord, and then blow a slow rotation fan across them like an undervolted Panaflo.

Your original graphics adapter choice with the Dual DVI outputs is a supremely wise choice. Do not settle for anything non-dual-DVI if you plan to use a pair of LCD flat panel displays that both have DVI connections. The difference in performance from analogue and digital with, "gamer," cards is immediately obvious. Only with a Matrox adapter would I ever consider driving an LCD, that offers DVI, analogue. I would be extra careful, however, to make sure that the NV Silencer 5 does, indeed, fit standard 6800s, particularly one that has been modified to fit dual DVI ports (to what extent it has been modified to do so, I am unsure). The reason being that while 6800GT and Ultra have almost the same exact PCB configuration (GT has Ultra's PCB but is missing some PWM components and a molex connector), the standard 6800 is a shorter card, so a cooler designed for GT/Ultra may or may not fit standard 6800.

Because you will be building a higher-draw-than-average machine, I would not recommend going the fanless PSU route, particularly considering the sheer number of hard drives. Getting something like a SeaSonic Super Silencer or Super Tornado and then swapping the stock fan for something like an undervolted Panaflo will not only be much safer and cooler running (particularly if you do a ducted Super Silencer), but it won't be a noticeable noise increase over the din of all those hard drives. Configured as I have described to you, the thing making the most noise is the 3-5 hard drives. A PSU with a Panaflo will not be audible over those drives, anyway.

How important is the portability/weight factor of this build? If that's not important, then I recommend sticking with steel cases, especially with this many hard drives, an aluminum case will shake, rattle and roll many magnitudes more than a comparable steel case. Please put together a shopping list of steel cases you may be interested in (assuming portability is not paramount), and I can help you decide on a final one. Again, do spend the money on SilenX or AcoustiFan for 120mm; just buy Globe 120.

Nothing wrong with any of the LCDs you picked, as far as I can tell. I'm personally using a Hitachi CML175SXW and am extremely happy with it; it blows away my old Samsung 151P by a long shot.

Your original RAM choice is far superior to this Kingston stuff. I'm using the very same OCZ pieces on Gamma Three and love it.

I'm assuming you will be gaming, so the Audigy 2 ZS is likely the best choice possible, as its full support for EAX4 and even the upcoming EAX5 formats will be unmatched by any other brand card for a long time.

Anybody who has the money for a DiNovo and is willing to spend it should do it. Nothing else compares, including anything Gyration tries to put out.

My recommendations here focused on price first, performance second and acoustics last, but it improves upon all three fields, in general, over your original arrangement. Good luck and keep researching. There is no reason to spend as much money as you originally planned, particularly if superior acoustics and performance are already within reach for less (money).

You may yet become Supa' Saiya-jin before you know it!

-SSJ3 Ed

EDIT: Straker's comments in regards to dual-channel is extremely good. For the time being, it's really not worth it to spend the additional loot on dual channel for K8; the performance difference does not justify the cost, particularly with PCI-Express boards on the horizon. Buy a single channel K8 arrangement now, and then when PCI Express K8 platforms are out and mature, it may then be worth the cheese to upgrade, particularly since the K8 PCI-Express platforms will support multiple PCI-Express 16X slots (although primarily they're, "just," dual 8X slots with 16X form factors), but it would allow for SLI and that will definitely be much more noticeable than dual channel on your K8!

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:28 am
by saiyajin
Thank you Straker.

It may sound silly but the reason why I did not choose the neo2 k8n is because it produces more noise due to the fan on board (but it is also a great board also, I chose it as an alternative component...)

I am considering your suggestion of spending the money on s754 (instead of the s939). I will do a quick mini-research here and other places and will post my thoughts. One issue is that I have not found any interesting x800 dual dvi with low noise (also I read that it needs more Watts and gets almost 35% hotter than a comparable Geforce 6800), which x800 are you considering? (initially this was my first option... to play Half Life 2 but after reading several reviews...)

Edward. Great message :shock: I love it! I want to respond with more time later this afternoon.

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:02 pm
by saiyajin
Hello Edward,

Here are my comments to your message (again Thank you for your elaborated response!)

Taking your suggestions here is the new HD configuration:
* One Raptor WD74GD taking care of the OS and Software (not in Raid configuration) to start computer and work with apps. extremelly quick.
* Two Samsungs Samsung SpinPoint P169 in Raid 0 (stripe 512k)

Do you think that it will work? Not too loud & Quick? (the reason why I didnt choose the x4 80gb in Raid 0 is that it is increasing a bit too much the risk of not been able to recover something in one HD fails. On the other side - you know what you are talking about - I have read that a raid 0 with two drives does not increase much the performance so it is not a good value for money. In my case since the Motherboard has it, I may give it a try... would you do the same?)

Case fan dont you like the SilenX 120mm 11 dBA Fan? (I read good reviews) If you prefer the AcoustiFan AF120CT (this one I can also get in UK), why?

Hard Drive Cooler I would prefer to have the least amount of fans. Why you would not recommend to have one ZM-2HC2 for each HD? (maybe it does not fit the Antec case chosen?)

GPU Cooler Now I am worried. I double checked what you were saying about the Arctic Cooling NV silencer 5, in some sites they mention only for GT and Ultra in others the mention all (in the Arctic Cooling site they dont mention the product). What would you suggest?

You would not consider a fanless CPU? Even after reading the reviews for Silenx Luxurae? Then which one would you choose and why (*NX-4090 Real Silent Power Supply 400 Watt, *Seasonic Super Silencer 460 watt RevA3, *Silentmaxx Fanless-Pro 503W PSU, *Enermax Whisper 2 -or- NoiseTaker EG475P-VE SFMA 470W ATX 12V v2) ? About opening the PSU to change fans... I have not done it before so I am a bit worried to do so...

The case I was thinking about is the well reviewed Antec BQE with the new AcoustiPack Pre-cut. The Sonata is a steel case but I read that people are happier with the BQE. Also I read your review for the Fong Kai FK330 but, and here is a subjective opinion, I like the other one more (and it feels that might be more silent). Which one would you recommend, why?

About the Sound Card, I may not need it if the board offers Digital Out that I can connet to the Harman Kardon. What do you think?
Following the advice about the Motherboard I have decided that it is a good advice (although probably the new A64 PCI-E will not be out until next year...). I was thinking about a AMD (754) nForce3 Chipset, which one would you recommend Asus, MSI (no fan in northbridge please)...?

By the way, did you take a look to the CPU cooler, what do you think?

THANK YOU soooo MUCH! (I am putting so much time on this...)


Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:34 pm
by Edward Ng
I've been RAIDing for literally years (my first array was back in 1999); I know where it helps and where it doesn't, I know how much it can help, and I know how much of a risk it is. I always keep the stuff on my arrays backed up some place...

Say, I didn't know that the controller on those boards allowed such a large stripes size as half a meg! I do not know if that's going to yield a noticeable improvement in performance over 256KB, but it will certainly cut down on the number of files that get striped quite a bit; I know that a massive number of files out there are under a half meg in size. Well, then again, how many files are bigger than 256KB yet smaller than 512KB?

Btw RAID 0 with two drives is up to 100% faster than a single drive. RAID 0 with three drives is up to 50% faster than with two drives, and RAID 0 with four drives is up to 33% faster than three drives. The problem is that those figures never pan out and I'll explain why. First of all, you're expecting files to stripe across all the drives; that's not the case. Only files that are large enough to occupy more than (stripe size * number of drives - 1) in size will get the full performance benefit, and it's not 100% of the time, especially with larger stripe sizes. The next variable is even more of a problem and it's a simple one: PCI bus speed. I have run four-drive RAID 0 arrays in the past and it was a major waste of money because I never ran workstation/server boards with PCI-X/66 to break the 133MB/s barrier (actually lower due to PCI overhead, anywhere from 115-122MB/s). When you're working on the outside platters of the array, with three and especially four drives, you will lose a bunch of the theoretical performance to the data hammering the PCI bus in the rear end with a plung....nevermind the metaphor. The point is that unless you're running a controller that can get past the standard PCI bus' limit of 133MB/s, you will never get your money's worth out of a 4-drive array, and same goes very much for a 3-drive array unless they're drives with lower maximum transfer rates.

I did have a RAID 0 of four drives that kept the PCI bus fully saturated all the way across 75% of the array surface; it was a funny sight to see, but it was also EXTREMELY frustrating to know I was not getting my money's worth out of that array, and I decided against doing 4 drives unless they're slow to begin with or I've broken through the PCI bus barrier.

I don't know anything about SilenX fans; I've never tried them, and am not going to spend yet more money on (expensive!!!) fans, when the $8 120mm Globe is already so good. Hell, even if the Globe 120 cost as much as AF120CT or SilenX, I'd still go with it, since it's already good enough that I won't bother with anyone else, possibly risking spending lots of money on a fan that's inferior.

Never trust the dB or dBA figures from manufacturers. Ever. 11 dBA means nothing to me from them; it means everything to me if Mike got that measurement, because he'll likely also have the measurement from the Globe 120. Moreover, he will have subjective noise quality statements to make on both fans. A fan that makes 14dBA of high frequency squealing is a lot worse tha na fan making 16dBA of low frequency noise that's much less intrusive.

The 2HC2 is designed to cool and silence at the same time. The Raptor could use the cooling effect. Having a couple quiet fans that won't exceed the noise level of the drives themselves does no harm, unless you want the novelty of having fewer fans than anyone else. Three 2HC2s costs more than one 2HC2, a Panaflo and some stretchy cord. Not to mention the fact that the 2HC2 cannot and will not silence the Samsung drives as well as a suspension will; that's a fact. Another fact is that an undervolted Panaflo will cool your Samsungs better than them sitting in stagnant air, even with the 2HC2s.

I am not 100% sure what to do about your GPU situation. Perhaps your primary choice is to wait and see if NV Silencer 5 fits, or if they will release a different model that does. If the 6600 series cards, by pure luck, are shaped like the standard 6800, I'm almost dead certain Arctic Cooling would release an NV Silencer for them.

Don't want to change fans? Then consider an Enermax NoiseTaker series PSU; the Globe fans they come with are pretty much the best stock fans I've yet seen (heard) on any actively cooled PSU.

I have never even heard of the Fong Kai FK330, and never actually seen any Fong Kai cases; only heard their name. You must have me mixed up with the person who actually reviewed it...

That BQE seems like a great case. I'd have chosen it over Sonata had I known about Sonata's stupid front fan arrangement beforehand (serves me right for not researching sufficiently beforehand).

A64 PCI-Express is coming out 3rd quarter. VIA and nVIDIA both have dual-16X (physical)-PCI-Express enabled chipsets coming out soon and the boards will be out late 3rd quarter. I have no direct experience with any particular K8 boards but I definitely recommend an nForce3 250GB-based board with working AGP/PCI lock and Hypertransport ratio control...but that's just the overclocker in me talking.

No, I didn't get a chance to look yet at that CPU cooler, sorry. Got my reservoir in today and am too busy playing around with my now rebuilt water cooling setup. I think you're kind of lucky I'm even here reading and responding at all! :P

You're welcome, and believe me, putting in sufficient time, such as it deserves, is the right way to do it. Don't make silly mistakes like I have, like buying a Sonata based only on looks and specifications (120mm intake and exhaust, sure...if you call putting a fan behind the hard drive cage a front intake arrangement!).


Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:14 am
by Jan Kivar
Edward Ng wrote:Btw RAID 0 with two drives is up to 100% faster than a single drive. RAID 0 with three drives is up to 50% faster than with two drives, and RAID 0 with four drives is up to 33% faster than three drives. The problem is that those figures never pan out and I'll explain why. First of all, you're expecting files to stripe across all the drives; that's not the case. ...
Allow me to disagree:'s test 02/2003.'s test 07/2004.
Anandtech 07/2004.

Summa summarum: RAID0 is only benefical if one needs ULTRA high STRs. Like RAW HDTV editing (not encoding!), or Photoshop's scratch disk when one edits those 1000dpi press quality images.



Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:52 am
by Edward Ng
Jan Kivar wrote:RAID0 is only benefical if one needs ULTRA high STRs. Like...Photoshop's scratch disk when one edits those 1000dpi press quality images.


Which is exactly why I use it; I do freelance desktop layout for a local print shop; it must be press-ready, as they use a DPM.

And also why I specifically said, "...up to..." Only in very specific cases is there any real benefit. The specific cases that I outlined.

We are not disagreeing at all. "Up to," is the key phrase here. Realize, also, that the two StorageReview articles are much more valid than Anand's; excuse my verbage, but the controller in Anandtech's article is bullshit; even under optimal usage patterns, that controller simply isn't optimized enough to yield serious gains. If you're going to play ball, you don't bat with a twig from the tree, you use a bat; to quote SR themselves,
Storage Review wrote:...badly written firmware on the controller can degrade performance, but this is a controller problem, not a problem with RAID technology itself...
Which actually takes us back to your primary point (if you are actually trying to make this point): the onboard controller for his mainboard, while technically cost-free, likely won't yield any serious performance benefits if any at all. This is one item I had not considered at first (in advising Saiyaman)--I'm simply used to using serious RAID controllers, not the onboard junk.

So here's where Jan Kivar and I agree for the second time--RAID likely won't benefit you much with that onboard controller, if at all.

The bottom line: if you don't need pure STR and won't be RAIDing with a serious controller, you may want to avoid the hassle of the noise and just go with a single drive. In that case, I recommend a NIDEC SpinPoint from MicroCenter or Silicon Acoustics. Silicon Acoustics is out of stock on their NIDEC 120s at the moment, and their 160s and 80s are JVC. They do have NIDEC 40s in stock, but it's a different drive series, so we do not know the acoustic performance of it, and it's likely too small for you, anyway.

If you do want to get your money's worth out of RAID, and this is only assuming your application would make it so, get a serious controller. I recommend Promise's FastTrak S150 TX4 over HighPoint's RocketRAID 1540; I own both, but the Promise doesn't only outbench the HighPoint, I can actually feel the difference between the two.


Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:35 am
by Jan Kivar
Actually, from STR-point-of-view, nForce250GB and i9x5 (=ICH6R) would be excellent: four SATA ports, no bottleneck from the PCI bus (both have controllers on SB). Can You say 200 MB/s?? 8)

One thing we haven't mentioned is that RAID0 is really AID0, as it has no redundancy. Lose one drive, lose all data. Backup 300 GBs? Prolly if one runs an identical storage subsystem on another computer for backup.

For real RAID, 3Ware or LSI controllers, or maybe SiI. Promise and HPT are more or less software RAIDs (I must admit that I'm not aware of the current SATA controllers; I tend to skip most of the RAID0 threads at SR. Maybe Promise and HPT have evolved?)



EDIT: Typo in SiI.

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:38 am
by Edward Ng
Promise has. Can't say the same for HighPoint, unfortunately. I actually compared WinXP's software RAID against the RocketRAID1540 and found the performance to be slightly better for the WinRAID, but only in benchmarks. Day to day usage showed them to perform similarly. The Promise, on the other hand, is noticeably faster.

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:27 pm
by saiyajin
Hello all!

I have been doing a bit of research in prices of Socket 754 vs. 939. Here is what I found from
MSI K8T Neo2-FIR (Socket 939) £84.98
Asus K8N-E Deluxe (Socket 754) £86.98
MSI K8N Neo Platinum (Socket 754) £83.46
AMD 64 3400+ £194
AMD 64 3500+ £232

So I would save £38 if I choose the Socket 754 MB + AMD64 3400 combo. I guess that I will just go for the Socket 939.

So my doubts are in relation to:

- Will Geforce 6800 (plain) be adecuate to use with the Arctic Cooling rev.5 (any one can 100% confirm please?)
- Will the fanless "Silenx Luxurae SX-460LX" manage all power/heat? (reviews for this fav available at: ... le&sid=794 ... roduct=105

- Will the Nexus AOP-6400 (AMD CPU Cooler: Noise Level: 19 dB(A)) be enough for the CPU?

- Does it really make a BIG different (to get a quick O.S.) to have RAID0 . I was thinking that another alternative is to have Raid0 for the OS and Software so everything runs quickly (I backit up with Ghost and if something happens -unlikely- then I recover it with Ghost). So in this case I will have one 160 Gig SATA Samsung Spinpoint Quiet Hard Drive for files.
What would you do? Give your best response (no need to be limited to the drives I mention here), the goal is to have a machine to work quickly (rarely I use Photoshop, Pinnacle or video/audio convertors).

Thank you

BTW, I will be installing also the internal version of the IMON. If you dont know what it is... check it out, you may like it :wink:

P.S. In case you are interested in knowing the total price for this Frankeinstein... it will be around 2000 British Pounds :shock:
(and I was trying to keep the price low :D ... I would love to get the Nec or Dell 20" monitors but instead I get the Samsung 17")

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:42 pm
by MikeC
1. Personally, I would not run that fanless PSU in a standard case. Probably would say the same about ANY fanless PSU with a power hungry system. I've played with a small handful, and know what impact the lack of direct airflow or trappaed heat has on PSU temps.

2. I would not run IDE/SATA RAID. I have done so in the past and found minimal gains in most desktop apps. Others have commented at length on this in this thread. I would (and do) run a 2nd HDD for mirror backup.

I don't think anyone can tell you a lot about the new nVidia/Arctic Cooling coolers. Too new.

As for things like the Nexus cooler, why don't you stay with a tested, tried & true HSF -- there are loads to choose from.

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:55 pm
by Edward Ng
Mike's comment in regards to desktop apps is 100% accurate. RAID will yield you virtually no benefit in an environment relying on accessing multitudes of tiny files occasionally. This is why I recommended you a single Raptor instead of duals for your OS & apps.

Ditto on the fanless PSU, but you already read enough from me on that issue.
saiyajin wrote:(rarely I use Photoshop, Pinnacle or video/audio convertors).
Then RAID is effectively useless for you. The increased risk of data corruption, as a matter of fact, would make it better if you didn't use RAID (i.e. the virtually non-existent performance increase would never make up for the increased volativity of your data). As I said, for OS & apps, the effective (and I mean highly effective--as in noticeable!) way to improve performance is to use a drive with optimized desktop access time and patterns. The ultimate example of this sort of drive is the WD740GD Raptor, which outperforms even 15,000rpm enterprise drives like my own 18GB Cheetah 15K3, when used in a desktop environment, because my drive is optimized for server access patterns, not desktop usage.

The first time you boot your system into Windows from the Raptor, make sure you have something cushiony under your jaw, because it will drop fast and hard. :wink:

RAID could never yield such a benefit in that situation. Would a RAID of Raptors be just as fast? Sure, but only so. It won't be any faster than a single Raptor, but it will be louder for sure! Hardly worth the money to do that. Worse part? Your data is now twice as likely to go down.

I hate when Windows goes down for the count.


2000 Pounds, huh? I'm trying to help you cut down the cost of this beast, but clearly I'm failing. Isn't 2000 pounds something like $3,000US?!@$%

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:10 pm
by saiyajin
I am getting addicted to check every hour for new responses... I must find another entertainment :D

Mike, thank you for your response.
Edward kindly also told me about the PSU, did you read the reviews from the links I sent you? Maybe there is a bit of fiction there but it sounds excellent. The other alternatives I found are:
- Nexus-4090 Real Silent Power Supply 400 Watt (a friend has it and it is not so silent although the reviews are good0
- Seasonic Super Silencer 460 watt RevA3 (some people like it, some people hate it)
- Silentmaxx Fanless-Pro 503W PSU (not much info, some good reviews)
- Enermax Whisper 2 -or- NoiseTaker EG475P-VE (both got mixed reviews in terms of noice)
Which one would you recommend?

-For the GeForce 6800, I just read the article from this site... it doesnt produce so much heat... Great... also from this site I found out that YES it will fit the 6800

- Regarding the CPU cooler, I considered as an alternative the Zalman CNPS7000Cu but some people say that unless you mod it, it is not so silent... Also there are other alternatives here ... Nexus has good reputation... would you think that it is a risk?

Thank you both about the RAID, I will get then the Raptor for apps and a Simpoint for files. (I must save... so no more than 2 drives here, lets use them first :wink: and then we will see)

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:21 pm
by burcakb
saiyajin wrote:.... the Zalman CNPS7000Cu but some people say that unless you mod it, it is not so silent...
I'm one of the extremely few people who find the Zalman at low too loud and the only "mod" I've done to it is to just add an inline resistor. However, considering the amount of noisy hardware you're putting in there, Zalman is going to be the last of your worries.

btw, just fyi, I've ordered parts for my Athlon64 3000+ and chose a Zalman 7000B-Cu as a cooler. It's definitely my best option. I've seen the CoolerMaster tower which is the only one better (XL-120 hasn't arrived here yet), it's HUGE, the torque that thing puts on the board would scare me to death.

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:30 pm
by saiyajin
burcakb wrote:
saiyajin wrote:.... the Zalman CNPS7000Cu but some people say that unless you mod it, it is not so silent...
I'm one of the extremely few people who find the Zalman at low too loud and the only "mod" I've done to it is to just add an inline resistor. However, considering the amount of noisy hardware you're putting in there, Zalman is going to be the last of your worries.
Thank you for your post.

I dont see what is noisy. The case is one of the best silent cases, with the new acoustic material pre-cut. The CPU has a cooler with 19dbs. There is no fan in Motherboard. The 6800 GPU is the lowest (for the highest end) in consumpition and the NV 5 cooler will make it quite quiet. I only have 2 Hard drives: The Simpoint, which is among the most silent HD, and the Raptor, which will be kept in a Zalman case, only one 120mm fan (considered one of the most silent). Finally the PSU is something that I am still considering and asking for advice... So I dont understand your comment.....

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:37 pm
by Edward Ng
He's pointing at the Raptor. The 2HC2 will cool the drive sufficiently, but it won't really silence it that well. The rubber isolation mounts aren't the most effective thing on Earth.

What you can try, although it still won't be the most quiet thing on Earth, is to install the drive into the 2HC2 heatpipes cooler, but then instead of mounting the cooler and drive with the included isolation mounts, suspend the whole assembly. If you're going to suspend the Samsung, might as well suspend the Raptor along with it.

Other than that, I can't come up with any other solution, right now, for further silencing the Raptor without risking overheation.


EDIT: Nix that; there is a solution you can try that will almost certainly silence the drive more than suspension alone; see here (and check both pages; MonsterMac did a great job building his own take on BlueFront's bird house). It's not plug-n'-play, but it should work, and it won't overheat the drive.

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:49 pm
by saiyajin
Edward, I took a look to the article... :D
are you nuts? :shock:
:wink: I am crazy but not that crazy... The noise can not be so bad... only when it reads or write large files but remember that the large files will go to the Simpoint (even for this one, from what I read I may not even suspend it). For the OS+Apps usage I would guess that should not make noise so frequent (barely), and I hope that the Ante case+the dampening+the Zalman, for those few times... do something. (but thank you for the advice)

Any thoughts yet about the PSU

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:55 pm
by Edward Ng
Of all the PSUs you listed, I only have experience with models from the line of two of them; a Super Silencer and a NoiseTaker. The Super Silencer's stock fan definitely warrants replacement with a Panaflo, while the Enermax NoiseTaker is on the acceptable side once the dial in the back is turned all the way down. Those Globe fans that come in the Enermax PSUs are quite good, much better than the Super Red that comes in Super Silencers.

It will be up to you to decide whether or not the Raptor is too loud or not, once you have it.


Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:42 am
by markjia
I think that most people are more concerned with the idle noise of the HD than how loud they are when they are working. If you are just using the machine for gaming/office type apps, there will likely be very little prolonged drive activity (after start up of course). Are you really concerned with copying large files?

As for a PSU, I'd try the Nexus. Their products are always quiet in their stock form, and you don't seem like the kind who would want to mod a PSU.