P180 or Sonata/Sonata II

amplemind · Post by **amplemind** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:53 pm

I'm planning on building my first system with:

ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe AMD
Corsair ValueSelect 1GB
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 80GB Serial ATA150
AMD Athlon64 3000+ Winchester
MSI Geforce6600GT 128MB
CoolorMaster eXtreme Power 430W

and I was wondering if the P180 case is a good case for a first system. I've read about some complications with power supply connector lengths, and all the cages look confusing. Should I go with the P180 awesome look, or downgrade to the Sonata II?

Also, what are the differences in between the ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe and just the A8N-SLI?

And does the cheap CoolerMaster powersupply matter much, or should I go with a better one?

Finally, what do you all think of the Winchester Athlon core?

I'm not too concerned about system noise, just look and performance for around a $800-900 price range.

Thank you in advance.

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:13 pm

The Sonata II comes with a PSU, saving you money, costs around $120 before shipping.

If you get the P180 from Technoweb, or any other place that has it for around $130 (AFTER shipping), you still have to buy a PSU. If you're extremely concerned with noise, you can mod the top to close it off, or just lay a book on top of the case where the top exhaust is. You might want to buy fan isolators, as the fans are screwed directly to the case, one of the cases few flaws.

PSU cable length - see if it comes up short, if it does, just buy some cheap extension cables

The PSU is at the bottom so it can get cool air, decreasing the chance of it having ramp up the fan under load.

Cages - mostly they're just hard drive cages, don't worry about getting confused, just choose to install them in the PSU thermal zone, or in the system thermal zone, where every other component is located.

For price, I would go with the Sonata, for looks and the best overall cooling, I would go with the P180.

Mumrik · Post by **Mumrik** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:32 pm

amplemind wrote: I'm not too concerned about system noise, just look and performance for around a $800-900 price range.

Sounds like you're in the wrong place then

And I see no reason for you to be looking much at these cases if you're not interested in silent computing.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:41 pm

While I agree the main point of these forums is for silent computing, he could be looking for a quiet but not silent system.

Also, remember that silent systems are the most difficult systems to cool: if a case is a great silent case, it just may have the potential to be a stupendeous quiet case with optimal cooling capacity.

Just my 2 cents...

amplemind · Post by **amplemind** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:47 pm

Sounds like you're in the wrong place then Smile And I see no reason for you to be looking much at these cases if you're not interested in silent computing.

Have you seen the P180? I mean wow, it looks amazing. 10x better than any other case I've ever seen, much more my style.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:15 pm

amplemind wrote:Have you seen the P180? I mean wow, it looks amazing. 10x better than any other case I've ever seen, much more my style.

Well, congratulations, you just answered your own question

I have a P180. It does look really nice.

I have a Winchester as well. If I'm buying a new CPU today, I'd get the Venice core, however. It's only a little more expensive, has an improved memory controller, runs as fast or slightly faster at same clock, as cool or slightly cooler at same clock, and overclocks a fair bit better according to some reports.

The cages are not confusing. They're pretty straightforward to use. You remove the thumbscrew, slide the cage out, attach the drives (don't over tighten - it'll reduce the effectiveness of the grommets), slide it back in and reattach the thumbscrew. Choose one or the other.

If your PSU cables are not long enough, get extension cables. They're a few dollars more.

I've no experience with that particular power supply. It should be more than adequate in your setup.

I'd get a larger drive. But that's just me.

Oh, and Welcome to SPCR Forums

liquid_celica · Post by **liquid_celica** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:23 pm

Budget wise,

the sonata 2 seams be the more reasonable choice for those that are price conscious. AND YES! you can be price conscious and still POST in a SPCR forum. The p180 totally looks good. Don't get me wrong, if I had 150-200 dollars to waist, I may just get it, but i don't. It may even be better, but for the general purpose of building a nice quiet/near silent computer, the sonata 2 should suffice. It is based off the sonata 1 which was descent with some flaws, i.e. small front bezel, "ANTEC" drill hole, poor psu, etc. Those are "corrected." Given that, it should be a much quieter system to its already quiet predecessor.

Freelancer77 · Post by **Freelancer77** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:22 pm

amplemind wrote:I'm planning on building my first system with:

ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe AMD
Corsair ValueSelect 1GB
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 80GB Serial ATA150
AMD Athlon64 3000+ Winchester
MSI Geforce6600GT 128MB
CoolorMaster eXtreme Power 430W

The P180 is the killer case IMO. Now I'm curious, you buy a high performance MOBO capable of handling anything thrown at it, a solid 6600GT GPU, and you want Corsair VS memory? Hold out for another $75 or so and get a TWINX1024-3200XL kit, that times at 2-2-2-5 and is a perfect match for the NF4 SLI chipset on that MOBO.

Soon as I get over Father's Day (Kid's spent most of my spare cash on stuff for me, that of course I'll rarely touch. Love them to death), I'll be buying the last of the parts for this:

Antec P180 (In hand)
ASUS A8N SLI Deluxe (In hand)
Athlon64 3700+ San Diego (In hand)
Corsair TWINX1024-3200XL (In hand)
ASUS EN6600GT-TOP
WD740GD (x2) RAID0 (In hand)
Deskstar T7K250 250GB

The two question marks are in PSU and HS. The Scythe Ninja reviewed very well, but I like the XP-120, and either will work well with the P180s two big fans. And I'm leaning toward the Enermax Whisper EG565P-VE, but don't know if the main power and ATX connectors will have a reach issue in the bottom mount PSU position. As a retired avionics tech, I'm not daunted by having to rewire some power, but I'd rather not if I can avoid it.

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:28 am

And I'm leaning toward the Enermax Whisper EG565P-VE, but don't know if the main power and ATX connectors will have a reach issue in the bottom mount PSU position. As a retired avionics tech, I'm not daunted by having to rewire some power, but I'd rather not if I can avoid it.

If they're too short, wouldn't it be easier to just buy some extension cables instead of fooling with the PSU wiring like that?

Freelancer77 · Post by **Freelancer77** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:13 pm

Shadowknight wrote:
And I'm leaning toward the Enermax Whisper EG565P-VE, but don't know if the main power and ATX connectors will have a reach issue in the bottom mount PSU position. As a retired avionics tech, I'm not daunted by having to rewire some power, but I'd rather not if I can avoid it.
If they're too short, wouldn't it be easier to just buy some extension cables instead of fooling with the PSU wiring like that?

Easier? Perhaps. But every "loose" connection you add in an electrical line decreases power efficiency, and increases the chance of a disconnect or intermittent behavior down the line. I would always rather rebuild a wire bundle than insert bullet connections to extend reach, especially on power supply lines. It isn't exactly brain surgery.

Post by **MikeC** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:29 pm

Freelancer77 --

But why not start off with PSU whose cables you KNOW will reach? We used Seasonic S12 and Super Silencers, as well as the Antec fanless units w/o problems on several motherboards for our testing.

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:54 pm

amplemind wrote:Also, what are the differences in between the ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe and just the A8N-SLI?

The A8N-SLI Deluxe version has two gigabit Ethernet controllers (instead of one) and two RAID controllers (instead of one), one of which supports RAID-5.

You should also consider the A8N-E which is the same as the A8N-SLI except that it obviously has no SLI support (for 2 video cards) and lacks the single firewire (IEEE1394) port. For the difference in price you could almost buy an OEM Audigy2 ZS sound card with built-in firewire (IEEE1394) support. Or if you don’t care about firewire, put the money into a faster CPU.

There is the new A8N-SLI Premium edition, which has a passive heatpipe cooling for the NF4 chipset. But not cheap.

My suspicion is (based primarily on anecdotal comments on this forum, but without any proof) is that the non-SLI NF4 chips on the A8N-E run cooler than the ones with SLI support (and the other added features).

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:09 pm

MikeC wrote:But why not start off with PSU whose cables you KNOW will reach? We used Seasonic S12 and Super Silencers, as well as the Antec fanless units w/o problems on several motherboards for our testing.

I don't know for a fact, but I believe the Asus A8N-E and SLI boards may have a tight reach for the 4-prong 12V motherboard connecter with a bottom mounted PSU like in the P180. I believe someone else commented that the S12 cable will reach the connector, but it has to be strung on top of the PCI cards to reach without an extension. Obviously, not all motherboards place the 12V connector in that position.

amplemind · Post by **amplemind** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:20 pm

Well freelancer77, I'm building this comp to go to college with, and I don't have a job, so no real holding out for an extra 75 bucks (parent's credit card though).

Anyways, is there a real noticeable difference in between the two kinds of memory? If so, I may consider it.

amplemind · Post by **amplemind** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:35 pm

To clear up a bit for others, is there a real difference between "high-performance" memory such as Corsair TWINX1024-3200XL, and the ValueSelect that I listed in my future system specs?

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:27 pm

amplemind wrote:To clear up a bit for others, is there a real difference between "high-performance" memory such as Corsair TWINX1024-3200XL, and the ValueSelect that I listed in my future system specs?

High performance memory usually can operate with faster timings and less latency. The timings and latency are different than the rated speed of the memory (400 MHz for PC 3200 memory), even though they actually do affect the speed of your computer.

The memory timings are set in your bios, either by default, or manually according to what the memory manufacturer specifies. Even in cases where the recommended timings are the same (if the default is used), the high performance memory will withstand over-clocking much better.

For many advanced desktop PC users, 1 GHz of slow memory is better than 512 MB of fast memory. The threshold levels may differ depending on what applications you run on your PC.

Freelancer77 · Post by **Freelancer77** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:10 pm

amplemind wrote:Well freelancer77, I'm building this comp to go to college with, and I don't have a job, so no real holding out for an extra 75 bucks (parent's credit card though).

Anyways, is there a real noticeable difference in between the two kinds of memory? If so, I may consider it.

To clear up a bit for others, is there a real difference between "high-performance" memory such as Corsair TWINX1024-3200XL, and the ValueSelect that I listed in my future system specs?

Here's why I suggested it. You are building a machine with fairly stout performance specs, so an assumption was that you were after all-around strength. Under the circumstances, you take what you can get away with, I suppose, and Corsair VS is still very stable and adequate memory.

To answer the other question, yes, memory that can run at lower latency settings improves performance in a very measurable way. As a quick tutorial, the latency numbers refer to either clock cycles or edge transitions of clock cycles (as in, low to high, or high to low, instead of a full cycle from low to high and back). Memory is physically and logically laid out in grids of rows and columns. RAS latency is row access, CAS is column access. If each memory location access requires 4 edge transitions for one event, and 2.5 full cycles for the other, just to open up the in-or-outbound circuitry to that address, but another memory requires 2 edge transitions and 2 cycles for the same memory access, its a large percentage quicker, and with memory intensive activities it adds up to big gains.

In the past, better performing memory cost more than twice as much as "vanilla" sticks. At the current introduction price for Corsairs XL sticks, I'll always recommend it for an appropriate system.

m0002a wrote that 1GB of slower memory can be better than 512MB of fast for some systems. That's true depending on the applications being run, and how well other things such as swap file are set up, and how fast your HD access is, etc. Better yet is 1GB of fast memory. Unless you run 3dsMax or other high end graphics production progs, more than 1GB doesn't provide real increases on most Windows systems for now.

At Zipzoomfly.com this minute:
Corsair TWINX1024-3200XL (2-2-2-5) -- $180.00
Corsair VS1GB400C3 (3-5-5-9) -- $85.90 <==Home page special right now.

On a budget, that Value Select 1GB kit is great especially on this sale, and will not disappoint. If you want a screaming fragger, there's never been a better price on high-grade FAST memory than the XL.

Disclaimer: Not in any way connected to Zipzoomfly.com (Except for the bones I send their way from time to time for parts.)

Good luck in school.

Freelancer77 · Post by **Freelancer77** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:15 pm

MikeC wrote:Freelancer77 --

But why not start off with PSU whose cables you KNOW will reach? We used Seasonic S12 and Super Silencers, as well as the Antec fanless units w/o problems on several motherboards for our testing.

Thanks MikeC, that's the anwer I've been looking for. I have asked in several threads hoping to hear. I've ordered an S12-500.

Just curious, was an A8N SLI part of those tests? The 4-pin ATX connector is about as distant from the PSU bay as it can get on that MOBO, and the only worry that I've had about the whole business.

While I have your attention, Mike, does the VGA duct fit with any of the heavyweight HSFs in a P180 with an A8N SLI? By the looks and measurements available to me, it doesn't seem so, so I ordered an Arctic Cooling Freezer 64. I know it'll be quiet, and I'm no OC'er, so I suspect it will do the job. But I wonder if the Ninja would manage to squeeze in there and still employ that duct.

Either way it might end up facing my Dremel tool, but I'm not in a hurry to hack up any parts of this new case.

Mar. · Post by **Mar.** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:45 pm

If you plan on messing with your clock speeds though, "value" RAM, even Corsair's, doesn't take well to an overclocked FSB. You'll be able to squeeze out about 10 MHz extra, but no more.

Of course, 10 MHz on your CPU side, when you factor in the multiplier, can be a pretty large jump.

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:07 pm

While I have your attention, Mike, does the VGA duct fit with any of the heavyweight HSFs in a P180 with an A8N SLI?

Yes, it should fit. The top of the VGA duct only extends maybe 1.5" past the center of the VGA card, which on most boards, does not get up that close to the CPU socket. Besides, you may or many not want to use the VGA duct, it all depends on your system details.

Ackelind · Post by **Ackelind** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:32 am

I'd say that high performance RAM is not really worth the money.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview ... erthread=y

Here is a test, where they mess with timings, dividers and such, and you can get good performance without expensive RAM.

You have to set your ram for really tight timings, and then run it by dividers, so even that you are overclocking your FSB to well over 250MHz, you could run your memory at even below 200MHz without taking a huge performance hit.

A64 prioritize tight timings before high FSB. Could be because of the already high bandwidth of the onboard memory controller? Anyway, read the thread at anandtech's forum for more info.

fisher999 · Post by **fisher999** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:36 am

lenny wrote:
amplemind wrote:Have you seen the P180? I mean wow, it looks amazing. 10x better than any other case I've ever seen, much more my style.
Well, congratulations, you just answered your own question

I have a P180. It does look really nice.

I have a Winchester as well. If I'm buying a new CPU today, I'd get the Venice core, however. It's only a little more expensive, has an improved memory controller...

The cages are not confusing. They're pretty straightforward to use...

If your PSU cables are not long enough, get extension cables. They're a few dollars more...

Mister OP (I can't see you name as I type this), I just received my P180 the other day. I can tell you just from playing around with it that it is truly revolutionary and it is completely intuitive. The drive cages are the most logical and easy to use cages I've ever seen. During a 30 minute or more session I was pulling out this, unscrewing that, thumping this, all with my hand and no tools. This case is going to be so interesting to work with. My only concern is the "power supply power cable length issue" and I have a thread started here to ask about that problem which is not getting much attention; probably because I am a newbie here (I've been with AT since 1999). Anyway, I think you will love the P180 if you should decide to go that direction.

Our components choices are very similar. I have already purchased an Asus A8N-SLI (non deluxe) and an AMD A64 "Venice" 3200+, Corsair 1 GB CMX1024-3200-C2PT PC 3200 RAM, Samsung SpinPoint 160GB SATA hard drive (not fast, but cool and quiet), NEC ND-3540 DVD burner, and will place my order for the MSI 6600GT just after I finish this post. I will be adding a Hauppauge 1042 Win TV150 PVR-MCE Tuner card when they come back in stock as I will be using my already-purchased/unused copy of WinXP MCE2005 with remote control as the O/S.

BTW, I haven't gotten far enough into the thread to see if anyone has answered your "what is the difference between Non-deluxe and deluxe A8N-SLI" but I can tell you that the MAIN differences are that the Deluxe includes an additional 4 SATA-150 connections and an extra SATA RAID controller for RAID 0/1/0 + 1/5 AND an additional Gigabit ethernet controller for a total of two. Both version have the same 8 channel onboard audio chip (Realtek ALC 850) and same number of 2 PCI-E X16, 2 PCI-E X1 and 3 Legacy 32 bit PCI slots. Other than that they are almost identical.

The "Venice" core in addition to it's 90nm fab, also has the improved memory contoller, which among other things, allows one to use up to 4 double-sided PC3200 DIMMs at 400MHZ (while with the previous cores, 4 double-sided DIMMs would default to 333MHz). The Venice does not allow running 4 double-sided PC3200 DIMMs at 1T though, only 2T is possible under that circumstance; maybe AMD will address that issue with a future core. The venice also has an improved SS (Strained Silicon) die process which allows for lower required voltage, lower energy consumption and less heat. Venice also includes support for Intel's SSE3 instruction set.

Since I didn't get to reading all the way through this post I bet your questions have been answered by now but I hope I was of SOME help.

Take care,

Greg

fisher999 · Post by **fisher999** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:10 am

Ackelind wrote:I'd say that high performance RAM is not really worth the money.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview ... erthread=y

Here is a test, where they mess with timings, dividers and such, and you can get good performance without expensive RAM...A64 prioritize tight timings before high FSB. Could be because of the already high bandwidth of the onboard memory controller? Anyway, read the thread at anandtech's forum for more info.

That is my understanding too; that higher performance RAM's benefits are not as easily seen with the A64's because of their excellent memory controllers. I decided to go with the higher performance Corsair anyway even though most people told me that Corsair Valueselect should be fine.

fisher999 · Post by **fisher999** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:15 am

Freelancer77 wrote:
MikeC wrote:Freelancer77 --

But why not start off with PSU whose cables you KNOW will reach? We used Seasonic S12 and Super Silencers, as well as the Antec fanless units w/o problems on several motherboards for our testing.
Thanks MikeC, that's the anwer I've been looking for. I have asked in several threads hoping to hear. I've ordered an S12-500.

Just curious, was an A8N SLI part of those tests? The 4-pin ATX connector is about as distant from the PSU bay as it can get on that MOBO, and the only worry that I've had about the whole business.

That question is the reason I became a member of this forum and started a thread on the topic. I have the Asus A8N-SLI and the Antec P180 and want to use a Seasonic S12-430 or preferrably the S12-500 and I also need to know if the power connector cable and the 4 pin ATX connector are going to make the "reach" from the lower chamber to the upper chamber motherboard connectors.

Will you please send me a private message if you get a satisfactory answer to this question ??? Thanks Freelancer77.

Greg

P180 or Sonata/Sonata II

P180 or Sonata/Sonata II

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