P180 Athlon 64 939 "knee of the curve" advice plea

[limejuice]

Hi,

I am starting to build my 2nd computer. (1st was a P4 2.0 Ghz/ Lian Li case in 2002).

I really like the look and design of the P180 case, so I went ahead and bought that.

Also, I wanted to try an Althon 64 instead of Pentium 4 this time around.

But I am having trouble figuring out which Power Supply, Motherboard, Graphics Card to put in this thing.

Intended Use: Some cpu and memory hungry software development IDEs.
Also some image processing. I have about 80 GB of digital photos and other data that I need access to. I'm almost out of space on my current system. Uses only 2D graphics, but would like to have minimal 3D support to play occasional game.

Constraints:
* I'm not looking to overclock.
* I'm generally a "knee in the curve" aka "sweet spot" kind of guy, picking components that have the most bang for the buck. Although I do like to have a nice case ... P180
* I do like a reasonably quiet case, but I'm not striving for absolute silence.

Special Issue: The room where the computer will be located tends to have lots of dust because we keep the windows open most of the time. My old computer gets lots of dust inside the case which I have to occasionally blow out with compressed air and then vacuum up. I am going to attempt to mod the P180 case based on suggestions by Bluefront in another thread to use replacement air filters from home air cleaners (e.g hamilton beach Ture Air replacement filter #4711) to filter the air from the inlet fans.

What I have or feel certain about:
P180 case
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Venice 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor
2GB (2X 1GB) of PC3200 DDR400 RAM
2 X Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 ST3250823AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA150 Hard Drive configured in RAID 1
1 X Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 ST3250823AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA150 Hard Drive
DVD +-R/RW 8X Plextor Drive (from old computer)
CDRW Plextor Drive (from old computer)

The 250GB RAID array will hold my data (Currently 80GB and growing). The single 250GB disk will be for the system and programs. (Possibly could use a smaller disk for the system disk).

What I have no idea about:

CPU Heat Sink:

I read the P180 review and saw how the Scythe Ninja was used in one configuration. That thing is huge but seemed like a nice solution. One thing I like is that there is more room between each of the aluminum fins.
In my old PC I used a Zalmon ALCu 92mm flower what happened is that over time the fins get caked in dust esp near the center. I have to get in there an blow the dust out every once in awhile. The Scythe Ninja looks less susceptible to dust buildup.

Motherboard :
I was thinking about getting this Gigabyte mobo because it has a passive heat sink. Should be ok since I'm not going to overclock. I'm really have no clue about mobos, but it seams like all the current boards support the features (RAID, lots of USB ports) that I need, so I'm having trouble picking one.

GIGABYTE GA-K8N Ultra-9 Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

Is this good choice, or is there anything better/cheaper with passive heatsink?

Graphics Card :

Most of these socket 939 mobos advertise PCI-express?
Can I use an old PCI AGP 8X graphics card in one of these mobos? I have a ATI Radion 9200 Saphire card that I would like to reuse, since I don't care to have the latest and greatest in graphics.

Otherwise, can you recommend a good PCI-express video card with
basic 3D support on par or better than ATI Radeon 9200 Saphire?

Power Supply :

I was thinking about getting this SeaSonic 430W, but was wondering if this is overkill? Maybe good if I ever want to upgrade to an Athlon 64 X2 in future?

SeaSonic S12-430 ATX12V 430W Power Supply

Questions:

1) Is there a big speed advantage to using Windows XP 64 bit? I need to buy a new license for Windows XP Professional, but maybe I should just get Windows XP 64bit edition?


Thanks for any advice.
-Alex

[limejuice]

Following is price sheet of the above components from newegg.com except P180 which
was purchase at Fry's Electonics.

Code: Select all

$160 Antec Performance I P180 Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$267 AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Venice 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor
$129 GIGABYTE GA-K8N Ultra-9 Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard
$188 CORSAIR ValueSelect 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Unbuffered System Memory Model VS2GBKIT400C3
$100 SeaSonic S12-430 ATX12V 430W Power Supply
$348 ($116 X 3) Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 ST3250823AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA150 Hard Drive
 $49 Scythe SCNJ-1000 CPU Cooling Heatsink
$150 Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64 Edition 1 package - OEM
  $0 ATI Radeon 9200 Sapphire Atlantis Video Card PCI AGP 8X (from old system, assumming it would work)
  $0 Plextor DVD+-R/RW 8X IDE (from old system)
  $0 Plextor 52X CDRW IDE (from old system)
-----
$1391 (+tax+shipping)

The Hard Drives are the most expensive cost in the system. I may be able to use a lower capacity drive
for the system disk, but I really need the 250 GB for the data disk since I already have 80GB of data
(and growing).

[limejuice]

I also priced these components at monarchcomputer.com:

Code: Select all

$160 Antec Performance I P180 Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$272 AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Venice 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor
$124 GIGABYTE GA-K8N Ultra-9 Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard
$231 OCZ Dual-Channel 2 GB DDR (2 pcs 1GB) PC-3200 (400) (OCZ4002048PFDC-K)
 $98 Antec True Power 2 430 ATX 12V 430W Power Supply
$345 ($115 X 3) Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 ST3250823AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA150 Hard Drive
 N/A Scythe SCNJ-1000 CPU Cooling Heatsink
$155 Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64 Edition 1 package - OEM
  $0 ATI Radeon 9200 Sapphire Atlantis Video Card PCI AGP 8X (from old system, assumming it would work)
  $0 Plextor DVD+-R/RW 8X IDE (from old system)
  $0 Plextor 52X CDRW IDE (from old system)
-----
$1385 (+tax+shipping)  w/ no Scythe Ninja HeatSink

Monarch doesn't carry the CORSAIR ValueSelect RAM; The
cheapest I could find on their site is $231 OCZ Dual-
Channel kit. Also they don't carry the Ninja Scythe
Heatsink. Prices were about the same as newegg.com -- most
of the difference was the cost difference in the memory but
those are not equivalant. I like to order from Monarch
rather than NewEgg since I live in California and NewEgg
will charge me 8.25% sales tax. On a $1391 total, newegg.
com would charge me $115 of sales tax, which makes them
more expensive than Monarch for me.

[jackylman]

Otherwise, can you recommend a good PCI-express video card with basic 3D support on par or better than ATI Radeon 9200 Saphire?

A good option might be the MSI ATI Xpress200 motherboard with integrated graphics.
Or...
I've been trying to sell my old vid card because I want a completely silent system. You probably wouldn't hear this card over your 3 hard disks (unless gaming with fan at full blast).
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=22764

S12-430 sounds good, especially if you want to upgrade in the future.

I would stay away from Windows XP-64 for now, especially if doing critical work (software development).

[limejuice]

Ok,

I now see that the mobos I was looking at were based on nforce4 which supports pci-express. I'm still not sure if my old pci AGP 8X video card would work with it, but I'm guessing not.

I found that the older nforce3 based boards are more of what I am familiar with. For example, GIGABYTE GA-K8NS Ultra-939 Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce3 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard

But, I like to get the newer mobos because that is the one component I never want to upgrade. I like that the new mobos have more SATA and USB connections, and the pci-express bus is probably better for future upgradability.

I checked the performance charts at THG for video cards:
THG's VGA Charts VII: AGGP Update Summer 2005
THG's PCI Express Update Summer 2005

It looks like I can buy a cheap PCI Express Video Card for $50 which is faster than my existing ATI Radeon 9200 Sapphire card, and would meet my modest needs. The main thing is it must support DVI at 1600x1200 to drive my LCD monitor.

[limejuice]

jackylman,

The MSI ATI Xpress200 motherboard is interesting, but it is micro-ATX form factor. It looks like it has fewer USB ports (4) and IDE (2) than the other mobos I'm looking at. Also, the ATI chipset less widely used than Nvidia's nforce chipset. I'd rather stick with nforce3 or nforce4 boards full size ATX boards.

Re: windows xp x64, I have same concerns about using it, but that looks like the future, and I don't want to shell out for a windows xp license and then pay up again for windows xp x64 license. I'll have to try to find out if my development tools and photoshop will run on windows xp x64 before buying it.

[Matt]

The MSI ATI Xpress200 motherboard is interesting, but it is micro-ATX form factor. It looks like it has fewer USB ports (4) and IDE (2) than the other mobos I'm looking at. Also, the ATI chipset less widely used than Nvidia's nforce chipset. I'd rather stick with nforce3 or nforce4 boards full size ATX boards.

Check out the Asus A8V. Socket 939, AGP, passive northbridge heatsink. Looks like it will do what you want, and you can keep your 9200. It also supports ECC RAM, which I'd reccommend if you're serious about stability. The Deluxe version has built-in Wi-Fi support -- bonus.

Re: windows xp x64, I have same concerns about using it, but that looks like the future, and I don't want to shell out for a windows xp license and then pay up again for windows xp x64 license. I'll have to try to find out if my development tools and photoshop will run on windows xp x64 before buying it.

Unless you're writing Windows-only software, you might want to consider Linux. Linux software and development tools are at least as powerful as Windows counterparts, and they aren't encumbered by silly licensing. "Everybody" knows that Linux is more stable than Windows... Linux system uptimes are usually measured in years.

Whether or not you switch to Linux, you can switch to GIMP -- a free Photoshop "replacement" that is also free of silly licensing.

[limejuice]

Unless you're writing Windows-only software, you might want to consider Linux. Linux software and development tools are at least as powerful as Windows counterparts, and they aren't encumbered by silly licensing.

Whether or not you switch to Linux, you can switch to GIMP -- a free Photoshop "replacement" that is also free of silly licensing.

I would love to switch to Linux, and avoid paying Microsoft another $150, but I have so many dependencies on windows applications or hardware, I'm sure it would be a nightmare/impossible to switch to Linux.

I use OpenOffice instead of MSOffice, but I use several image editing tools like Photoshop and Compupic. And even if GIMP is a 'replacement' I doubt it is as good, and it is very hard to switch after you have years of experience with an application. I also use several financial applications which as far as I know don't have Linux equivalents. And would my Epson 3170 Scanner, Canon i960 Printer, Dell 2001FP LCD still work under Linux not too mention smaller things like CompactFlash card readers, Wireless mice, etc. ?

I'm not one of those nutballs who think all software should be "free of silly licensing." Sure, if there is some free software, e.g. OpenOffice, which meets my needs, then I'll use that in lieu of commercial equivalent, e.g. MS Office. But I don't mind paying for good commercial software if it improves my productivity. If you can get a job done in 1 hour with Photoshop or 2 hours in Gimp or whatever, I would rather be using PhotoShop. It's a question of what your time is worth.

Another example is roboform which is an awesome password manager and form filler. I paid for it because I use it every day, it works with my browser (firefox), and there is not free password/form filler which is anywhere close.

Anyway, I don't want my thread to turn into a MS vs Linux flame war. Let's get back to this computer I'm building...

[jackylman]

I think you'll like this fanless NForce4 Ultra mobo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813127212
10 USB connectors (4 on back panel + 6 via onboard connectors)

For video, you should probably be looking at Radeon X300s or Nvidia 6200s. There are many fanless models. Personally, I would stay away from HyperMemory or TurboCache models because they use your system RAM.

Memory - RAM seems a little expensive right now. I paid $180 for this 2GB dual channel kit. If you're not OC'ing, this RAM should work nicely.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820144322

As for 64-bit computing, it would probably be best to wait for Longhorn.

[limejuice]

I changed a couple things.
* I switched the power supply from SeaSonic S12-430 to CoolerMaster Real Power 450 because it was almost $40 cheaper and it has longer cables.
* I dropped the Windows XP Pro X64 for plain vanilla Windows XP Pro. I have too many software and hardware dependencies to expect X64 to run smoothly, so I'll wait on that.
* I switched from the Scythe Ninja to Zalman CNPS7700-ALCU because NewEgg didn't have Scythe Ninja in stock. I still want to get the Scythe Ninja if I can find it in stock somewhere.
* I add a PCIexpress video card Gigabyte nVIDIA GeForce 6600 Video Card which has a passive heat sink. This card gives decent 3D performance at decent price.

Here is the NewEgg wishlist I created with these components:

http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishHistor ... ID=1594245

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 $160 Antec Performance I P180 Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 
 $267 AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Venice 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor 
 $129 GIGABYTE GA-K8N Ultra-9 Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard 
  $79 Corsair Value Select (Dual Pack) 184 Pin 512MBx2 DDR PC-3200 
  $62 Cooler Master Real Power 450W Power Supply , Model "RS-450ACL-X"
 $348 ($116 X 3) Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 ST3250823AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA150 Hard Drive 
  $39 ZALMAN Aluminum + Copper CPU Cooler for Socket 775/478/754/939/940, Model "CNPS7700-ALCU"
 $142 Microsoft Windows XP Professional With Service Pack 2
 $109 Gigabyte nVIDIA GeForce 6600 Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, PCI-E, Model "GV-NX66128DP"
   $0 Plextor DVD+-R/RW 8X IDE (from old system) 
   $0 Plextor 52X CDRW IDE (from old system) 
----- 
$1335 (+tax+shipping)

The wishlist has only 1GB (2x512MB) of Corsair ValueSelect DDR400 dual channel kit. I will either get that or 2GB (2x1GB).
Note: The Antec P180 is not in the NewEgg wishlist. It went out of stock a few days ago, ETA 8/22/05 now. I bought mine for $160 at Fry's Electronics.

I'm going to do some price checking to see if I can get these components cheaper anywhere else. I think Monarch will be cheaper for most of the compoinents for me because NewEgg will charge me sales tax in CA.

I'm looking to get all the components within a couple weeks. For now I've been playing around with the P180 case I have to see how I can modify it accept a dust filter. I bought a couple of the Hamilton Beach #4711 at Target that Bluefront mentioned in another thread. Will see if it works in a P180.

[E M F]

Really, I don't see anything wrong with your setup. I went for the throat on my components (see sig!) but I agree with most of the other sentiments here.

I bought the Asus A8N-SLI Premium board because I needed three PCI slots, but wanted the flexibility of four PCI Express slots of various sorts--- I am not going to SLI... and it's still passively cooled.

I stuck with the Seasonic power supply because the cables are "long enough"; even though I used an extender or two for the sake of neatness, it wasn't necessary.

WinXP 64-bit edition has too many compatibility issues for me to accept. I dual-boot Windows and Linux on almost every machine at which I sit daily. There are some things I can do in Linux that are just painful on Windows, and vice versa.

The one thing that I'll probably regret for silence in the long run is buying the huge heat-monster of a video card... it isn't "must raise your voice" loud, but it's easily the loudest thing in my system right now.

[merovingian]

-XP Pro has a free upgrade to x64 when your ready and I agree, I wouldn't go to 64 just yet.
-You will need to move to a new PCI-E graphics card if you move to a good new mobo.
-I would overlclock the Asus A8N-SLI Premium using an venice 3200+ and a zalman 7700cu instead of the alcu. You should see a rock solid stable 2.6-2.8Ghz. I can walk you through the overclock and believe me it's easy with an asus mobo and I can give you the basic settings right off my bios. Anyway the asus has a passive NB heatsink and onboard raid5 so you can run all three drives in raid at the same time.
-If not the asus-sli then there is an MSI Neo4-F for $85 shipped which is pretty full featured and you can get the same speed as the asus on an overclocked 3000+. That should save you some cash.
Gigabyte has a passive heatsink on the 6600GT? Cool, I have a 6600GT and it really hauls ass your going to like it!
-Don't get a cheap psu cause it can damage your components and will cause you system to be unstable. Stick with the antec truepower2.0 430W.

Sound good?

[amplemind]

XP 64bit is evil, stay away for at least a year.

Maybe go with Samsung Spinpoint hard drives for nice and quiet.

GL.

[ronrem]

New Egg now has the Spinpoint samsungs,200 GB SATA-2. Samsung says a bit quiter faster than the SATA 150 drives. Similar price. HD performance is a bottleneck, so a step up to SATA costs almost nothing-and you could step down a notch on the CPU-still have more real performance. NF4 Mobos support SATA2Raid. You might check Zipzoom Fly for a Ninja.

I think it maybe was Foxconn that had an NF4 mobo that had both AGP and PCIe-you can use either-not both. Almost all NF4 Mobos are PCIe. Abit has one with a great chipset heatpipe cooler. Ecs KN1 is my fave-free wireless-6 Satas+IDE,dual giga-Lan, has chipset fan-But lots of space to replace with a passive-my favorite-their pci"extreme" slot-extra clean signal allowing a high grade sound card to shine....nice mobo at $100

[limejuice]

I have been ordering components from NewEgg and Monarch this evening after work. I made 2 more major changes to my configuration. First, I switched from the Gigabyte mobo to the DFI Lan Party UT nf4 Ultra D mobo. The reason was purely based on features. I really like the DFI BIOS vs Gigabyte BIOS. The downside is tht the DFI has a chipset fan; I will have to see how that sounds and may have to replace with a heatsink.

Second, through pure chance, monarch is having lots of sales today. They have the Athlon 64 3700+ available for $260 ($299 - $39 Coupon "1PH7-O7PZF8" ) which is cheaper than the Athlon 64 3500+ which is $267 at NewEgg. The 3700+ San Diego chip runs at 2.2 Mhz instead of 2.4 Mhz of the 3500+ but is rated faster because it has 1 MB cache instead of 512kb. This seems like a better choice because the lower Mhz should be less heat.

Code: Select all

 $160 Antec Performance I P180 Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
 $129 DFI LanParty UT nF4-D Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard
 $260 AMD Athlon 64 3700+ 1MB 90nm Rev. E San Diego (939)
  $79 Corsair Value Select (Dual Pack) 184 Pin 512MBx2 DDR PC-3200
  $62 Cooler Master Real Power 450W Power Supply , Model "RS-450ACL-X"
 $348 ($116 X 3) Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 ST3250823AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA150 Hard Drive
  $39 ZALMAN Aluminum + Copper CPU Cooler for Socket 775/478/754/939/940, Model "CNPS7700-ALCU"
 $142 Microsoft Windows XP Professional With Service Pack 2
 $109 Gigabyte nVIDIA GeForce 6600 Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, PCI-E, Model "GV-NX66128DP"
   $0 Plextor DVD+-R/RW 8X IDE (from old system)
   $0 Plextor 52X CDRW IDE (from old system)
-----
$1328 (+tax+shipping)

I've put all my orders in; Should receive components next week. Will update on how the build goes.

[limejuice]

I bought one of those air cleaner replacement filters to
experiment with. I found out is that the Hamilton Beach True Air
Filter 04711 fits over the intake vents on the front of the case
and the case door can still be closed over it!

See the picture where I place one of the 04711 filters over the
lower intake vent. If you take two of these 04711 one on top of
each other they will cover both of the intake vents, although it
will block the lowest of the four 5 1/4" bays;

Each of the 04771 filters is 145 mm x 175 mm x 20 mm (W X H X D).

The problem is that the 20 mm filter thickness is almost exactly
the depth of the gap behind the door. So, when the case door is
closed, the door is blocking the air flow into the filter.

I need a filter about 10 mm thick so that there is still enough
room for the air to flow into the filter.

If I can find a premade filter which matches these specifcations
or just make it myself, then this will prove a simple dust
filtration without doing major case modifications, as long as
you don't mind the aesthetics.

One additional thing I would need to do to make this work is to
add 2 intake fans behind the intake vent to ensure the air gets
sucked through the filterss. The P180 has a bracket for mounting
these fans, but not fans are provided with the case. The P180
only comes with the 2 rear 120mm case exhaust fans and one 120mm
x 38mm fan in the middle of the case in the ps compartment.