upgrading PC, need suggestions ...

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:48 am

I'm upgrading my pc with probably a Antec Sonata case, and the following (everything completely stock).

AMD 64 3000+ 939 socket
ASUS A8N-E motherboard
3x Samsung PC3200 512mb ram
Radeon X600XT video card
LG somethin or other DVD writer (I'm not concerned about the noise of my optical drives)

what I already have (migrating from the old PC)
1x maxtor 120gb 7200 rpm hd
1x maxtor 60gb 5400 rpm hd (I know that both of these are loud mofos)
Liteon CD writer of some kind (again, not concerned about the noise of this)
Echo Layla 3g sound card

I rarely have issues with HD access noise since I don't game and my PC is used strictly for design (the HD is rarely accessed). Same thing with the optical drives. Just looking for some other alternatives to keep it quiet, and a reasonable temp at the same time.

any tips?

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:10 am

Not much comment regarding the noise aspect, but why 3 sticks of DRAM? You'll need 2 or 4 sticks for dual channel. Not even sure if 3 sticks is supported - check the online manual for the motherboard.

Not familiar with the X600XT - since you don't game, perhaps another passively cooled card (like the nVidia 6600)?

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:26 am

LOL, thanks ... I feel like an idiot ... I'm not sure actually ... I'll probably end up just plugging 2 in at the start and upgrading with an additional stick in a month or so ...

ps. Is there any different fans that I should consider purchasing?

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:34 pm

The Sonata (I have one) needs to have a front fan for HDD cooling. Any of the more quiet 120mm fans should do. The orange Nexus is the current favorite, though expensive ($15 + shipping).

What CPU cooler are you planning to use?

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:53 pm

I was thinking about the arctic cooler 64 silencer for the CPU?

Mar. · Post by **Mar.** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:04 pm

lenny wrote:The Sonata (I have one) needs to have a front fan for HDD cooling. Any of the more quiet 120mm fans should do. The orange Nexus is the current favorite, though expensive ($15 + shipping).

What CPU cooler are you planning to use?

Screw the Nexus, get the low-speed Yate Loon.... same fan, half the price.

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:10 am

What about the fan on the mobo?

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:45 am

ki_cz wrote:What about the fan on the mobo?

There's a very long thread on replacing the NB fan. I'm not familiar with your MB, but your main problem is getting it to clear the graphics card.

A few motherboards (Asus A8N-SLI Premium, Abit AN8, some Gigabtye, and a few others) don't have NB fan.

The AC 64 seems to be a decent cooler from the SPCR review.

I'm not too thrilled with the drive sleds on my Sonata. I replaced the grommets with EAR grommets, then with grommets and bolts from my P180. I tried Sorbothane as well, which worked well for silence, but I needed it in another machine. The sideways sled is great for looks, not so good for cooling, and an inconvenience when dealing with PATA cables (SATA should be more convenient). There are some threads on pretty creative ways of suspending drives in the Sonata if you feel the need to go that route later on.

The Sonata has major airflow issues. There's a couple of threads on modding the Sonata for better airflow if you feel like taking that route.

My Sonata is now my "remote storage drive". I use WOL to power it up when I need to access it, use Remote Desktop to control it, Windows networking to access the drives, and the command line program "shutdown" to power it off when I'm done.

How's the power supply? I recall reading about a PSU which always runs at 100% if the RPM monitoring cable is plugged into the MB due to a flaw. Not sure if your Sonata has that model (mine was a Rev 1 Sonata bought many moons ago, with the Truepower 380S, and I haven't paid much attention to the newer versions).

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:47 am

Here's my latest idea because I might be able to get a good deal on a Sonata 1:

- mod the front bezel
- take out stock fan/psu
- replace with enermax noisetaker psu (trying to keep the power consumption down so that it doesn't ramp up too high)
- 2 yate loon 120mm fans (keep at 5v)
- for the 3000+ 64 venice core use the arctic cooling silencer 64 ultra TC
- for my radeon x600xt use the arctic cooling vga ati silencer (that is compatible with the card)
- keep the stock fan on the mobo and see how it goes ...
- suspend the HDDs, or use the EAR kit that I got in the mail ...

any suggestions for improvement?

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:34 pm

Well, I've finally decided and ordered a lot of the parts, so here's pretty much what I've settled on in terms of quiet parts, any additional recommendations would still be appreciated:

- antec sonata II (going to keep stock psu until I can afford a new one)
- 2 nexus 120mm (hopefully running @ 5v)
- zalman zm80d VGA silent cooler
- zalman 7000B heatsink/fan (I'm hoping this won't be too big for all the other parts, I really don't know)
- zalman chipset cooler ZMNB47J to replace the stock fan

non-cooling/quiet components:

- AMD 3000+ 64 venice core
- ASUS a8n-e motherboard
- 4x 512mb samsung pc3200 ram
- 1x 5400 rpm 60gb hd, 1x 7200 rpm 120gb hd
- 1x LG GSA-4163B 16x +/- DVD writer
- 1x crappy liteon CD writer
- sapphire radeon x600xt 128mb pci-e vid card

I think that 2 120mm fans will be necessary with both the VGA cooler and the NB heatsink. One at the back, and the second angled upwards behind the hard drives? Hopefully it works out.

thanks for all the help everybody ... seriously ...

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:12 am

dfrost wrote:ki_cz,

That looks like a nice system.

I'd be surprised if you had any fit problems with the 7000B. In this photo you can see that the 7000B barely extends beyond the CPU retention frame. While your MB is different, the RAM would have to seriously crowd the frame to cause interference.

An alternative to the Zalman ZM80D on your VGA would be an Aerocool VM-101 - cheaper, less weight and easier to attach, but it does occupy some space above the VGA, as you can see in this photo (other views elsewhere in that gallery). I've been extremely pleased with it.

m0002a has a great, inexpensive method for improving HDD isolation in the Sonata HDD sleds described in this thread.

Plan on replacing the Zalman fan with something else, preferably attached with some isolation. I used a Mad Dog 92mm Whisperfan from CompUSA (sleeve bearing model for $9), which is made by the same manufacturer as the Nexus 92mm (Dynatron?) and looks identical. It sits on the same high density foam from Home Depot that m0002a uses in his HDD isolation, and is attached to the Zalman frame with Stretch Magic elastic cord (an SPCR favorite). Fan speed went down about 500 rpm, noise went down a bunch, and load temperatures only went up 2-3C.

Should be very easy to trim any spines of the NB47J heatsink that interfere with the ZM80D.

Have fun and let us know how you like the results.

Wow, thanks for the reply, definitely gives me some more stuff to think about.

A few things:

- I have managed to confirm that the ram will fit with the 7000B cpu heatsink/fan, thank God!

- looking at the aerocool VGA cooler, I'm not sure if on my a8n-e that would actually fit with the zalman 7000B. I unfortunately have been unable to find any pics of this as well (I can usually do a search and find a pic of the setup I'm looking for to see if it works). Looking at my mobo I can't really tell either, and unfortunately, nowhere near me sells the aerocool cooler so I can't take a look and see, I'll have to do some more google searching I guess. It seems like the ZM80D would be a better fit.

- thanks for the link to the HDD isolation idea, looks like an easy inexpensive way for sure, without butchering the case!

- I presume that you're talking about replacing the zalman 7000B fan? I'm not even sure if I was going to have the fan on the ZM80D running as I hope to have some decent airflow, and really don't do any 3d intensive gaming (this is strictly a music, photoshop/3ds max machine all of which aren't too hard on the vid card). That seems like a pretty difficult mod if you're talking about the fan on the 7000B and I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable doing that sort of thing, is there any resources regarding this kind of switch?

thanks for the great reply, I can't wait to get this thing put together!

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:13 am

Maybe I should just go with the VF700 cooler, it seems as though it fits with the NB cooler with no problems.

dfrost · Post by **dfrost** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:03 am

That seems like a pretty difficult mod if you're talking about the fan on the 7000B and I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable doing that sort of thing, is there any resources regarding this kind of switch?

Search on "Zalman fan swap" in the CPU Cooling Forum. You'll get many pertinent hits, including this one.

It's pretty easy to remove the fan from the heatsink assy - just requires a Phillips head screwdriver. Installation of a different fan depends on how you want to attach it. Some just use double-sided foam tape. Mine required drilling two small holes in the Zalman fan bracket.

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:15 pm

I'm going to go with the thermaltake g0003 vga solution in the end, it definitely seems to give more space etc ...

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:27 pm

Ok, well, here's my near, finalized build that I've decided on:

amd 3000+ 64 venice
abit ax8 mobo (really wanted passive cooling)
xp-90 cooler w/ 92mm nexus fan
2x nexus case fans
sapphire x600xt 128 meg card w/ thermaltake cl-g0003 cooler
4x 512meg ddr400 pc3200 ram
echo layla 3g pci sound card
1x 60 gig 5400/1x 120 gig 7200 both maxtor
liteon cd burner
lg dvd burner
floppy drive

Now I've narrowed down the final and possible most important part of the whole setup to 2 things:

1 - stock sonata II with stock PSU
2 - sonata slk3000b with a PSU. I was thinking either the enermax noisetaker 420 watt PSU (problem because it has a 24 pin mobo connector and the ax8 is 20 pin, is there any way around that?), the truepower II 430W or I might go for the seasonic s12 380W, would that be enough to power this rig?

If I get the s12, it will be about $15 more than option 1, but the noisetaker would keep it about even ...

if anybody can help ... thanks!

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:01 pm

Get one of those combo floppy/media drives so you can read things like smart media, etc. Just don't go with Mitsumi, from my experience they have compatibility issues.

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:16 pm

Shadowknight wrote:Get one of those combo floppy/media drives so you can read things like smart media, etc. Just don't go with Mitsumi, from my experience they have compatibility issues.

I'll do upgrades like that down the road, this thing has cost me more than I wanted already. I'll definitely look into something like that later, just want to get the PSU/Case sorted out now so I can finally put it together.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:17 pm

ki_cz wrote:(problem because it has a 24 pin mobo connector and the ax8 is 20 pin, is there any way around that?)

Three possibilities:

1. If there is enough space at the side of the ATX connector on the motherboard, plug it in, leaving the 4 new pins unconnected.

2. Buy a 24 to 20 pin adapter (or even 20 pin extension - see [1]). Doesn't the PSU come with one?

3. Get a pin removal tool and do your own PSU surgery.

380W should be plenty of power.

Regarding the AX8, there's some talk about K8T890 not being compatible with the X2, if that's important to you. Not sure how true it is. Asus don't list X2 support for A8V-E, but Abit does.

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:12 am

lenny wrote:
ki_cz wrote:(problem because it has a 24 pin mobo connector and the ax8 is 20 pin, is there any way around that?)
Three possibilities:

1. If there is enough space at the side of the ATX connector on the motherboard, plug it in, leaving the 4 new pins unconnected.

2. Buy a 24 to 20 pin adapter (or even 20 pin extension - see [1]). Doesn't the PSU come with one?

3. Get a pin removal tool and do your own PSU surgery.

380W should be plenty of power.

Regarding the AX8, there's some talk about K8T890 not being compatible with the X2, if that's important to you. Not sure how true it is. Asus don't list X2 support for A8V-E, but Abit does.

Hi Lenny, at the moment, x2 support is not important to me, I might regret that decision down the line, but for now, I'm choosing this board.

So would you recommend the seasonic s12 + slk3000b solution then?

cmh · Post by **cmh** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:20 am

You might want to consider the 430W S12. The issue isn't the total capacity of the PSU...it's the current carried on the 12V rail. You want at least 24A combined, and the S12 380 just makes it at 25 (10+15). The 430W model carries 29A (14 + 15). Check out the instability complaints on the abit forums. I had most of the symptoms people talk about there (I originally had an S12-330), and upgrading to the S12-430 seems to have fixed them.

Hope this helps.
Chris

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:40 pm

Will I be able to run the nexus fans (2x 120mm and 1x92mm on the cpu heatsink) at 5v without a controller? Like, if I wanted to run them permanently at 5v, is that possible without a controller?

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:35 pm

If you're powering them off the molex, getting 5V to the fan is easy. Get a molex pin removal tool, and swap the yellow and red wire on the fan, and if you intend to use the female molex pass-through to power other components, swap that set of pins too.

The intention here is so that you won't accidentally feed 12V to a connector on a device expecting 5V.

An easier alternative, if you have enough molex from the PSU, is just to snip off the female molex on the fan.

Personally I really like my S12-430. I think it is superior to the Antec offerings in terms of efficiency, PFC and noise. I find the ATX cables a little short (esp. the ATX12V) but that's because I have it in a P180. In my Centurion 5 there's plenty of length to spare.

ookke · Post by **ookke** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:46 pm

I'm running a 24-pin psu on an abit ax8, without any big problems. It gets very close to a jumper, but not too close i hope

I had some difficulties getting the psu to work at first, but i think it was more my lack of experience than compatibility problems.

PS. Great mobo anyways, i like the passive nb cooler and the display & leds on the bottom

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:26 am

Think I'll actually go with the sunbeam rheobus in the end ... seems like a great controller and it's cheap. Looks nice too. But apparently is sucks a lot of juice ... this is getting crazy ... I just want a cheap 0-12V fan controller, that I don't build myself, that doesn't take up a tonne of power ... and the slk3000B door will be able to close ...

ugh ...

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:00 pm

lenny wrote:If you're powering them off the molex, getting 5V to the fan is easy. Get a molex pin removal tool, and swap the yellow and red wire on the fan, and if you intend to use the female molex pass-through to power other components, swap that set of pins too.

The intention here is so that you won't accidentally feed 12V to a connector on a device expecting 5V.

An easier alternative, if you have enough molex from the PSU, is just to snip off the female molex on the fan.

Personally I really like my S12-430. I think it is superior to the Antec offerings in terms of efficiency, PFC and noise. I find the ATX cables a little short (esp. the ATX12V) but that's because I have it in a P180. In my Centurion 5 there's plenty of length to spare.

I must be an idiot, I seriously didn't get that at all. I'm going to run a sunbeam rheobus fan controller for my 2 case fans, but would like to undervolt the 92mm CPU fan to 7v w/o a controller (I'd hate to kill it). Is there any picture tutorials that show how to do this in any way, I just really don't want to kill any components.

dfrost · Post by **dfrost** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:10 pm

ki_cz,

The tutorial you need is located at:

http://www.dslwebserver.com/

It's well-written and illustrated. Unfortunately, there's no direct link to the article, but look in "Step-By-Step" for an article titled "How to make a 5 volt and 7 volt wiring adapter out of a Molex Y adapter" under Hardware. The article is dated July 19, 2001.

Or search the site articles for "simple wiring adapter" which appears in the first sentence. That's how I was able to get there quickly.

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:59 pm

Thanks dfrost, I found that article eventually on this site, I should have done some more searching before I posted that I didn't know what I was doing. I think I'll end up setting the cpu fan at 7v, and having the other 2 case fans controlled by the controller. I just really don't want to screw anything up, especially since this new computer is getting way out of the price range I wanted to spend in the first place.

ki_cz · Post by **ki_cz** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:23 pm

Here's what I finally went with, I can't thank you guys enough, I'll update you once it's all put together:

- antec slk3000b case
- seasonic s12 430w power supply
- sapphire radeon 128mb x600xt
- thermaltake cl-g0003 passive vga cooler
- abit ax8 mobo
- amd 3000+ 64 venice core
- thermalright xp-90 cpu heatsink w/ 92mm nexus fan @ 7v
- 2x nexus 120mm case fans to replace stock ones
- sunbeam rheobus fan controller
- 1x 120gb maxtor 7200/1x 60gb maxtor 5400
- lg dvd burner
- 4x 512mb pc3200 ddr400 ram
- echo layla 3g soundcard

dfrost · Post by **dfrost** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:07 pm

ki_cz,

I'd recommend that you let the Abit FanEQ control your CPU fan. It will vary the fan voltage from 8V to 12V, which will result in that Nexus fan usually running inaudibly, but it will ramp up automatically when you're doing a high load task. You can set the temperatures for the low and high end in BIOS or uGuru (if that board has it). For example, I've set mine to start ramping up at 40C and peak at 50C. Since my CPU spends most of the time at 35-40C, the fan rarely ramps up. But I appreciate that it does so without my intervention, especially since there are five different users here. (I like MBM5 very much better then uGuru, so don't use the latter.)

Sometimes those tasks are not want you'd think. I was downloading an update for Turbo Tax and was surprised to see pretty high fan speeds and temps. Turned out the download was driving the system about like CPUBurn at near 100% usage! If I'd been running under just manual control, I doubt I'd have noticed the high temps until an alarm was tripped.

I've got a Zalman Fanmate 2 turned up full inline with the Papst fan , which drops the effective voltage to about 7-11v, but the FanEQ still works. (So my F/2GL fan speed is effectively the same as an F/2GLL for you Papst "fan"-ciers.) If the Fanmate is turned down from full, then the FanEQ doesn't alter speed.