Soundcard - alternatives to Creative

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Tumlehund
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Soundcard - alternatives to Creative

Post by Tumlehund » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Sorry if this post is in the wrong place, but I couldn't find a better place.

So, I was initially set on the X-Fi, but I'm having second thoughts. First of all it's expensive! Also it's compatibility problems (not sure of the details, however). And then I just started thinking if there are alternatives out there?

I know Terratec makes soundcards, but are they comparable to Creatives X-Fi? The Terratec Aureon 7.1 Space is kind of old and lacks EAX, but what about the Aureon 7.1 Universe?

Any thoughts on this?

vertigo
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Post by vertigo » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:16 pm

What do you want the sound card to do?

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Post by Rusty075 » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:22 pm

There are plenty of alternative, but it depends on what you're looking for in a soundcard. What's the primary use? Gaming? Hi-fi audio? (stereo or surround?) Sound editing? Narrowing down the priorites will help narrow the options.

For gaming the Creatives are hard to beat, although the X-Fi's really don't bring much to the table that you can't get in their $30 cards. Creative's in the same spot that ink-jet printer manufacturer's are in: even their cheapest product does what 99% of the buyers need it to, so they have to invent new features to get people to buy.

If high quality audio is the goal, then their are $30 soundcards that will blow away anything Creative makes.

(edit: darn vertigo and his snappy one-line responses!)

Tumlehund
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Post by Tumlehund » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:31 pm

Sorry, let me elaborate...

I already have a Pro sound "card" (actually a rack) for recording music (vocals, guitars, bass etc.) and editing, it's connected via firewire.

However, I would like a soundcard primarily used for listening to music (ripped from my CDs and converted to FLAC/APE) and gaming.

Now, the A8N32 does include onboard sound AFAIK, but isn't it crap compared to a "real" sound card?

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Post by snowman59 » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:13 pm

tumlehund...in regards to you last post: I'm not the most into music editing and recording but I can verify that most onboard sound sucks. I've had 3 mobos that I've used the onboard sound on and it doesn't compare even to an old creative SB sound card. I used an older computer with a SB audigy 2ZS for simple music editing and recording (nothing near professional) and then playback on both computer speakers and then on almost-studio monitors and also on concert speakers and at that level the onboard audio just stinks it up. The card audio is just so much cleaner and crisper.

In regards to using it to listen to music it all depends on what the speaker source is. If you're just connected to old computer speakers it probably won't make a difference but on a studio monitor it would probably make a really big difference.

~best of luck to you

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Post by Sizzle » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:45 pm

Terratec has a new card that does DDL. I believe it's based on the C-media solution like the X-mystique gold, but it's cheaper.

Chaintech has a via Envy based card that is dirt cheap. For a card with better DAC's that is Envy based look at the AudioTrak Prodigy 7.1 LT.

I use the Intel HD audio on from my Intel 945P mobo, it's a sigmatel chipset (seems most of the manufacturers who use Intel HD audio use a realtek chip). It does DDL way better than my X Mystique did, the drivers for that were terrible.

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Post by Irianta » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:04 pm

Tumlehund wrote:I already have a Pro sound "card" (actually a rack) for recording music (vocals, guitars, bass etc.) and editing, it's connected via firewire.

However, I would like a soundcard primarily used for listening to music (ripped from my CDs and converted to FLAC/APE) and gaming.
Pardon my ignorance, but would a "pro" card not be the best for listening to lossless-compressed music to begin with? It may not be the best for gaming, but that's what those $25 Sound Blaster Live! 24-bit cards are for :)

Tumlehund
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Post by Tumlehund » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:48 am

Thanks for all the info, guys.

I guess a cheap card will do for gaming and a bit of music listening every now and then. I'll take a look at the cards Sizzle mentioned. I believe the Terratec card doing DDL is the Aureon 7.1 Universe? I'll also take a look at Chaintech and Audiotrak.

Irianta, you're absolute correct, it's just that it's kind of a monster, and it's no good for gaming. I guess you cannot have it all in 1 card...

Also I think snowman59's got a point in that it depends on the speakers (or headphones). I currently use a 4 years old Cambridge SoundWorks 2.1 system and Icemat headphones for gaming an occasional music listening (I use my AKG headphones and studio monitors for my ProTools sound card). I guess it would be a good idea to look for a different setup. I wonder if computer speakers (e.g. from Logitech) are even worth considering to get "good" sound? Or should I just forget about that and go for "real" speakers? In that case I would need an amplifier as well, right?

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Just another option

Post by sgent » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:12 am

M-Audio makes the Revolution 5.1 based on the Envy chip with very good DACs for about $60 (do a froogle search). Its supposed to have a very stable driverset, and will do EAX for gameplay -- but its software EAX, not hardware. The 7.1 version is $20 more. They also have the 2496 card which doesn't have surround, but has very good mixing ADC/DACs for about $100.

The Chaintech Envy solution is only about $20, but provides leaps and bounds better audio than the Audiology.

Both of the above are known to co-exist nicely well with Creative cards in the same computer.

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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:50 am

anandtech.com did a review of x-fi and said that besides the artificial "crystalizer' option for 'cleaning up' mp3's that some moron made at a crap level of quality, it has no benefit to a system.

on board chips tax the cpu during a game so much, its actually not worth upgrading the computer for gaming unless you do this first. creative audigy zs 2 card OEM does the same exact off-loading of processor during a game as the x-fi does, even the fatality one. eventually this wont be the case, supposedly. However, creative beats down any card for offloading cpu power, that's its goal and it does it for like 65 dollars shipped.

the other options mentioned are better for audio editing. i have a box that attaches to my compy that cost me 350 dollars on sale and is worth it, that does analog to digital really well for live performances with 1-4 tracks going in. (it can do lke 64 tracks digitally, but it REALLY does 1-4 tracks from live musicians well, something you definitely dont need :D )

Tumlehund
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Post by Tumlehund » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:00 am

Since the card will be used for gaming (and occasional music listening), I guess the card should support EAX? I don't know what the difference between the different EAX version are - there are 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0, correct?

I looked at the M-Audio cards and they are primarily used for recording/editing audio. Since I already own a solution superior to the M-Audio, I guess that's not the route I'm taking.

So, I guess the choices are quite limited. I can only see the X-Fi or the Terratec Aureon 7.1 Universe. The latter doesn't support EAX 3.0, so I don't know if that will make an impact? I'm not sure if there are other differences. Maybe you guys can help?

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Post by Rusty075 » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:49 am

Tumlehund wrote:] I wonder if computer speakers (e.g. from Logitech) are even worth considering to get "good" sound? Or should I just forget about that and go for "real" speakers? In that case I would need an amplifier as well, right?
If you have any interest in "real" sound, which it sounds like you do, skip the powered computer speakers for stereo audio. For gaming, sure, a set of Logi's 5.1's work fine, but for audio you'll be disappointed. For what you'd have to spend to get decent "computer" speakers (e.g. Klipsch), you could have spent less and gotten "real" speakers for stereo listening.

Here's my advice, based on the actual audio-htpc that I'm currently running:

1. Card: Any of the cards running the EnvyHT or HT-S chipset. If you're using it just for playback, look at the Chaintech A710. It loses some of the inputs and output options of the M-Audio et al, cards, but it's $23!!!! That's what I run on my audio rig, and configured for kernal streaming its very impressive.
2. "Real" speakers. Too much personal opinion here, so I won't even try to make a recommendation. My speakers are probably (no, definitely) the weak link of my system, but I also only spent $100 on them, so I got what I paid for. (Sony 8" 3-ways, which are actually darn good for the price..but if I had more $$$.... :wink: )
3. Amplifier: Sonic Impact T-Amp. I cannot express in words how amazing this little thing is. Well, read the review. If Jeff Day is that excited about a $30 amp, well, you can imagine how good it must be. Don't be fooled by the 15watt rating, or the price tag - with sensitive enough speakers the sound is very impressive.

With my rig I'm running a $23 sound card, a $30 amp, and an htpc built from spare parts, and it outperforms audio kits costly huge multiples more money.

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Post by vertigo » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:01 am

If you want a card with a good (not 24bit) DAC on the cheap, look to the Hercules Fortissimo III. I bought one on ebay for under £10. The review says it is inferior to the Live/Audigy in games. I don't care much about 3D placement in games, etc, so I it suited me fine.

I don't know much about good 'gaming' cards.

Well, Rusty's suggestion looks very good, I'm going to read about those cards. No doubt there are good 24-bit cards available.

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Post by vertigo » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:54 pm

I don't want to say much here, but that Hercules card doesn't have ASIO support. Until today I didn't think ASIO was something that non-24-bit-spdif-users need worry about.

Suffice it to say I know how misleading hearing tests can be, and how biased perception is. I am surprised to find that it seems to make a difference. I don't trust myself entirely so I will continue to experiment, but I would buy a card with native ASIO-support, even for analog use. This is surely old news, take it as you will.

Edit: No, I think it makes no difference whatsoever. When William Tell starts sounding better you know you've been had. Forget what I said, I maintain it remains a specialist tool, concerned with latency.

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Post by markjia » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:06 pm

The choices largely depends on your budget...

Optimally, you shouldn't use the DAC on the sound card. No matter how expensive the sound card is, it will not be able to do a good job of D/A while inside the computer due to the high degree of EMI (electromagnetic interference).

To avoid this, output the sound from the computer digitally, and convert it to analog using a seperate DAC. This takes a lot of the onus off the sound card so it is not as important to get an expensive one. You have to avoid sound cards that as only able to output at 48kHz though. Most music is in 44.1 kHz and what ends up happening is the sound card upsamples it to 48kHz but does a bad job and sounds poor.

Using a seperate DAC will probably cost a more though. You can get a decent DAC for $100-200. You can save some money on the sound card though, even a $30 one will be sufficient.

This solution is not well suited for gaming, but the sound quality for music will be far superiour.

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Post by Tumlehund » Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:58 am

Thanks for all the help! You definately gave a lot of options to consider!

As I said before, it's not possible to get it all in one card, so... I'm thinking that since I already got a decent sound card (rack), I should probably focus on getting a card for gaming. Now, the X-Fi is quite expensive, I think, and the XtremeMusic doesn't quite cut it. The next in line is the Platinium, but I'm not sure I like having the connectors in the breakout box on the front (cables should stay on the back).

So, I'm looking at the Audigy 2 ZS which is only $91. Compared to the X-Fi XtremeMusic at $111 and the X-Fi Platinium at $185, wouldn't you agree the Audigy 2 ZS would be the better choice?

I'm not exactly sure what features I get in the X-Fi lineup compared to the Audigy 2 ZS?

Considering amplifier/speakers, I guess for gaming and occasional music listening, the Logitech 5500 or 5450 would be great? Of course they are both surround, but I'm not sure if that's the only difference compared to my current Soundworks Digital 2.1?

Another alternative, I guess, is follow Rusty's advice and buy an amplifier and "real" speakers. The Sonic Impact T-Amp sounds really great, but it's not avaible here AFAIK. However I'm looking at an investment around $1000 and compared to the $350 Logitech set, I'm not sure if it'll be 3 times as good?

The Fortissimo II looks great, but I don't think it will be able to compete with my external sound card and for gaming it doesn't bring EAX to the table.

markjia, concerning DAC, I'm OK using the digital out on the sound card, right? Currently I use the one on my motherboard which is connected to my Soundworks 2.1 system.

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Post by vertigo » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:01 am

If you want the best EAX effects and such, surely the Audigy 2 will be the best buy. The X-Fi looks expensive, but more importantly, power hungry. In a silent and cool running PC, who wants a sound chip with 50 million transistors?

I bought that Hercules card specifically because it had good analog performance. I am running a stereo amp and just wanted good quality analog sound cheaply (for music). It will never match these later cards in games.

I think the Audigy 2 is the one to get for gaming purposes.

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Post by spiffy102 » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:02 am

Tumlehund wrote: I should probably focus on getting a card for gaming. Now, the X-Fi is quite expensive, I think, and the XtremeMusic doesn't quite cut it. The next in line is the Platinium, but I'm not sure I like having the connectors in the breakout box on the front (cables should stay on the back).

So, I'm looking at the Audigy 2 ZS which is only $91. Compared to the X-Fi XtremeMusic at $111 and the X-Fi Platinium at $185, wouldn't you agree the Audigy 2 ZS would be the better choice?
You are so right. The XtremeMusic will not allow you to use digital out and a mic in. Unbelievable.

Yet the more expensive models require that stupid break-out box which to me - is well, stupid. I don't buy a beautiful P180 just to put that ugly thing in there, and have to run cables, and potentially leave the door open. Sorry - but to me that is just plain ridiculous. So I don't know what to buy either. :(

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Post by Tumlehund » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:38 am

spiffy102 wrote:You are so right. The XtremeMusic will not allow you to use digital out and a mic in. Unbelievable.
Heh... That that sucks! Looking at the Audigy 2 ZS there are more connectors, both for internal CD-ROM drives and mini jacks on the rear.
spiffy102 wrote:Yet the more expensive models require that stupid break-out box which to me - is well, stupid. I don't buy a beautiful P180 just to put that ugly thing in there, and have to run cables, and potentially leave the door open. Sorry - but to me that is just plain ridiculous. So I don't know what to buy either. :(
I feel exactly the same. I'm also getting a P180, so I don't want to have headphone and digital out cables going out from the front. I guess the P180 has mic and line out (or is phones) plus on the front, but I don't think they can be wired to neither the Audigy nor the X-Fi?

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Post by wjdashwood » Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:26 am

Here's my thoughts. I have a Terratec Aureon 7.1 Space and have that wired straight in to my Samson Servo 170 amp (complete overkill and noisier than my PC but sounds solid) which drives a pair of Tannoy Reveal near field monitors. So it's a decent rig which I bought when I was doing Music Tech at college and subsequently university. These days I just listen to my FLAC/OGG collection all day while web designing (gave up the music career). The Terratec is a great card which replaced my Terratec DMX 6Fire (sold it while it was worth something as I wasn't getting use out of all those inputs).

The drivers are fantastic, quality is certainly not disappointing although I haven't compared it to many other cards. Not sure what features it has for gaming but it does have toslink (optical) digital I/O and very low jitter so my recommendation would be to get a card like this, buy a reasonable A/V receiver/amp (check HiFI forums for recommendations) and demo some speakers in your budget. I personally would rather spend £200 on a pair of speakers rather than a set of surrounds but it depends what you're going to use them for. Use the receiver to decode the digital output of the sound card and avoid the problems of interference on the audio signal. You could have the set up I have for £300 new but as I say that amp is an overkill and the speakers are bottom of the change professional monitors so some cheaper speakers would do the job fine.

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Sound Card

Post by TheAtomicKid » Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:52 am

After looking over your current solution, I'd say you definitely have the music end of things handled, unless I miss my guess. Is the rack no good for playback?

Gaming... Hmm. I'm currently using an m-audio revolution 7.1 myself, and it's pretty decent for gaming sound, though some games recognize the EAX, and others dont, for some reason.. it's an interesting solution... the manual recommends you always use software acceleration, etc. That said, I like it. Before this, I was using one of the original audigy's, and .. meh.. it was 'ok'. Honestly, I'm just not impressed with Creatives efforts in the driver dept. Lack of updates, bloat, etc... bleah. But for gaming, I admit, they can't be beaten...(anymore).

Point to note.. the new X-Fi's support a new version of EAX, so eventually you'll see more and more games putting out content that... perhaps doesnt 'need' it, but would sound better, etc.

(I replaced my audigy with the revo 7.1 due to a combination of lack of driver updates, and... I'm pretty sure my card is damaged... I had a power surge quite a while back, lost a small pile of equipment over a period of 2 years, that I attribute to it... it came THROUGH my ups somehow)

I'd been pondering an X-Fi myself, mostly for the 128 voice capability, more than anything.. no idea if the 'x-ram' models will end up giving any real performance advantage in games, as stuff gets developed, or not... If I were to get one right now, it would probably be an extreme music variant... no need for the internal/external box, really.. and I've heard it can degrade sound quality... guess it would depend on implementation.

ok.. recap.

happy with my revo 7.1 for a combination of music playback and gaming... the gaming end COULD be better, but.. it's decent. as another poster noted, the envy 24 chips are very decent.. and m-audio makes nice stuff. The drivers are easy to install, and there does not appear to be a ton of extra stuff thrown in that you dont need.

if you NEED a high end gaming card.. I'd spend a little extra, get the x-fi you want/can afford, just for the extended voice capability, and the latest EAX compatibility... that's the ONLY reason I'm pondering one currently.

At this point, I wouldnt 'settle' for an audigy2 zs, unless you could save a significant amount of cash vs an acceptable x-fi offering... or if the a2zs bundle including something you couldnt otherwise get. They're decent cards, but... big brother is on the market now.

TAK

(nothing really equals the creative cards for gaming, currently... they sued their only competition into oblivion sometime back)

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point to note...

Post by TheAtomicKid » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:02 am

sitting here looking at the creative website... I don't know which OS you're running, but they're claiming the X-Fi's need WinXP Service pack 2... I have no idea if they'll function on, say, Windows 2000 or not.. (which is what I use)... I have good luck most of the time with drivers, but.. it's entirely possible that the card really is restricted to XP only, at least for now.

TAK

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Post by Tumlehund » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:51 am

"tak" means "thanks" in Danish :-)

Hmmm... I must say that this thread really gave me something to think about! Not only did I think about what sound card I should get (if any?!), but I started thinking about my whole sound setup.

Since I got a pretty good external sound "card", I should definately take advantage of this! So, I'm thinking that for music listening, I should use my Digidesign and for gaming, I should get an Audigy 2 ZS or an X-Fi Platinium (since I need to be able to plugin BOTH headphones AND mic). However, if it's possible to wire the X-Fi to the front of the P180, the XtremeMusic will do.

Now, for music listening I would probably need to replace my Soundworks Digital 2.1 setup. I'm quite sure I can do better...! So, I've been looking at the Sonic Impact T-Amp (there should be a new version), but it's not available in Denmark :cry: I would also need some speakers, obvously. So, the question if the Sonic Impact T-Amp can be ordered anywhere in Europe (maybe the UK?) and then I would need some good (and preferably small) speakers to go a long. Hmm... Any ideas?

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Post by mathias » Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:39 pm

spiffy102 wrote:I don't buy a beautiful P180 just to put that ugly thing in there, and have to run cables, and potentially leave the door open.
That gives me an idea! A case with a 5 inch bay at the back for this purpose, or for whatever other reason someone might want to burry away a bay device behind their PC. Or even a 3 inch bay, if that's what would fit well.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not at all suggesting case manufacturers should have to bend over backwards to accomadate these kinds of things, but I do think beying a new revised P180 would be all-around preferable to buying a new sandblaster.

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Post by spiffy102 » Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:12 pm

I've decided I could go with the XtremeMusic...

If I should ever need a mic input for game talk or voip or whatever... Then I could use the on-board audio for it... Stupid creative labs... :(

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Post by Tumlehund » Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:21 pm

spiffy102 wrote:I've decided I could go with the XtremeMusic...
Just curious: What made you choose the X-Fi over the Audigy 2 ZS (it's got more connectors than the X-Fi)?

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Post by spiffy102 » Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:22 pm

Tumlehund wrote:
spiffy102 wrote:I've decided I could go with the XtremeMusic...
Just curious: What made you choose the X-Fi over the Audigy 2 ZS (it's got more connectors than the X-Fi)?
The sound quality difference. Reviews rave about X-Fi.

Now I am NOT an audiophile by any means - but if X-Fi can do what I want - and it is only a little more expensive... Hey.. Why not?

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Post by markjia » Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:43 pm

The onboard digital output it most likely quite poor. I think that even Creative's sound cards are likely better in comparison.

Your best bet would be to use something from Terratec or M-Audio.

Sadly, I don't know if there is any card that excels for both gaming and music...You could get seperate cards...

The benefit of using a seperate DAC is that the upgrades can be incremental you can use the DAC with the gaming board now, and add an additional card dedicated for music later if you wish to further improve the sound.

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tak means...

Post by TheAtomicKid » Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:19 pm

*laughs*

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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:23 pm

the sound quality on the x-fi for people who use audio equipment has been kinda on par with the 70 dollar 2 zs audigy. There's really no reason to buy it at the moment. and yes, the digital to analog conversion is best done with something like an M-box that hooks up externally. i dont like m-box as its a waste of money for less features (it's like buying a dell or something like that) but to have that discussion, that would be useless here.


the x-fi's crystalizer massive distorts the sound of a file. it just gives that gimicky pop and tingly sound to crappily reproduced mp3's like britney spears at 96k.

i dont think anything though could help that actually, even if it was in cd-audio format.

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