Building a QUIET HTPC

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:00 am

I'm in new territory here, I've built tons of PCs, but never a media centre and never a quiet PC. I've bought bigger and somewhat quieter fans before, but more for better cooling than to keep the noise down, so I need some serious help

I've speccing out a machine along the following lines:

AMD X2 Processor (probably 3800+)
1GB RAM
on-board video (probably nForce4 board for that reason)
some seperate soundcard
two+ tuner cards
two 500GB hard drives (I really intend to use this thing

)
350W PSU

Thing is, I really don't know where to start with the silent thing. If I can make the entire thing fanless, then great, but I'm not sure if that's practical with this setup. Also, I'd like a cube case that fits in nicely with the lounge rather than a tower, but again, is that practical?

The system spec I have, or will nail down as I go, but when it comes to making it quiet, or getting a quiet, small, good looking case, I'm adrift at sea

Help!

EDIT: Oh and of course it needs a DVD drive. Is there much of a difference in noise between brands, or even between slot and tray?

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:36 am

If I can make the entire thing fanless

I don't think that will be possible with your specs. I'm guessing that the X2 3800+ will definitely need a CPU fan, no chance of going passive with dual cores.

Also, I'd like a cube case that fits in nicely with the lounge rather than a tower, but again, is that practical?

To cool the X2 quietly you'll probably need a big heatsink, so that rules out cube-style cases.

Let's see, if you're going for the X2 you'll need a socket 939 mobo, so how about the Gigabyte nForce4 S939 SATA, RAID 8CH micro-ATX board? You can fit that in a mini tower case. Or how about the Asustek A8N-SLI Premium nForce 4? That's a very popular board on SPCR.

With 2 500GB hard drives you might have trouble:

A ) finding somewhere to put them in a media case, which are not known for their ample proportions,

B ) keeping them quiet without cooking them.

In terms of cases, what about the Thermalrock Mystic HTPC case?

Thermalrock HTPC Case

It accomodates ATX and micro-ATX boards.

Oh and of course it needs a DVD drive. Is there much of a difference in noise between brands, or even between slot and tray?

Not really. However I have my DVD drive on foam (not hard-mounted to the chassis), cut down the amount of noise it was producing by 50%.

Darxus · Post by **Darxus** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:53 pm

The nforce4 chip does not include onboard video (I don't know if there are motherboards that include a seperate chip that works with the nforce4 that you're thinking of).

I agree fanless isn't a good idea with that cpu, and it seems like if you do enough research you should be able to pull it off with just a couple fans which are quiet enough that you won't ever hear them.

I just ordered a x2 3800+ system with a ninja heatsink that I'm planning to run fanless, although tightly ducted to one of the exhaust fans.

Elixer · Post by **Elixer** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:28 pm

I see no point in getting an X2 for a media center PC. The second core is almost worthless and to reduce noise you'll want to reduce heat. Go for a venice core at the very most. Personally I would go for a sempron socket 754 system with 512MB of ram because extra ram and L2 cache make almost no difference in encoding/decoding video (I suggest you do some research to confirm this). Granted this changes if you plan to do more with the system but with two tuner cards this system seems really geared toward HTPC.

Going fanless is pointless as two 500GB hard drives will be much louder than the fan needed to keep your system cool. Alternatively you could network share the 500GB drives from another room over gigabit lan, or even 100MB lan as it provides enough bandwidth to stream divx, xvid, etc. files.

For DVD drives there is a large difference between brands. Do some forum searching, I'm sure you'll get an idea.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:02 pm

A media centre PC will likely be doing several tasks at once, and while most apps aren't built for multiple cores/processors, Windows is, and thus dual core capabilities, at a very small cost increase, is worth it. As this is my first media centre I don't know how many of the functions I will end up using on a regular basis, nor how much or little I will extend the system, thus I am anxious to avoid crippling it at the off.

sundevil_1997 · Post by **sundevil_1997** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:13 pm

Here are some ways to keep DVD's quiet....

1) Rip the DVD to the hard drive and play it from there. That's what I do, but mainly because I haven't bothered to get a DVD drive for my HTPC.

2) Buy a plextor drive. They (appearantly) come with tools that actually let you set the drive speed. Other brands might also, but I know plextor does it. A simple 1X DVD drive won't make any noise...it's just when the 16X drives spin up to "spin-cycle" that they're horrifically noisy.

Or so I guess.

Aleksi · Post by **Aleksi** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:31 pm

If you want a HTPC case that allows the use of powerful components and still giving you the possibility to keep it quiet (good ventilation in other words), I would personally go for the Silverstone LC17 (depending though on if that's too big for your taste). It has it's own intake for a bottom sucking PSU, dual 80mm exhaust fans along with a side intake for the CPU and possibility for 92mm intake (HDD) fans.

I seriously recommend against HTPC cases with single/dual 60mm exhausts if possible. Too little airflow and too much noise. OK, if you would have a low power setup then you could get away with just using a 120mm PSU as the only exhaust and maintain low noise levels.

It all depends on how small you want the case to be. But from a silencing point of view, small fans aren't the best possible option.

justblair · Post by **justblair** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:49 pm

Not sure what advice I can give, but hopefully my experiance of building a quiet HTPC will be usefull.

My Specs...

Hardware
Processor.........Athlon 2100 palamino, Running at 1122Mhz (1733Mhz std), Undervolted to 1.4v
CPU Cooler.......Thermaltake Typhoon
Memory...........512Mb DDR running at 160Mhz
Memory cooler..Thermaltake
Mobo...............Abit NF7, custom modded with passive heatsinks on everything.
PSU.................Silverstone 300w passive PSU
Storage1..........120gb Seagate in Silentdrive enclosure
Storage2..........Freecom Classic 160GB Network Drive (in other room)
Optical.............DVD/CD-R drive
Graphics/TV......Ati AIW9600pro

Software
Windows MCE2005
Speedfan
NVidia encoder/decoder
LCD Smartie

I have this in a custom made case which has the rear 1/3rd of the top and sides meshed.

This is enough to run MCE at normal speeds with very little slow downs. The graphics card is dowing the processing for media running on the machine. Providing I dont do anything at the same time I can record, playback TV simultaniously without problems.

Speedfan is set to turn on the Loon fan on the typhoon if the temperature goes over 60c on the processor, It has not yet done so in the 24hours that I have been running this setup undderclocked. I have yet to play with the Mhz further so I can probably eek a bit more without the fan switching on.

Temps under load are reaching

CPU 59.5c
HD 57c
NB 40c

I plan to attach a heatsink to the silentdrive enclosure to cool that HD down, its within tolernce according to seagate, but not to my liking yet. Reckon I can bring it down to comfortable levels.

Bearing in mind that the 2100 pally is a 75w processor at stock Mhz/Volts I think I have done well to run it passive. I think it proves though that for HTPC use the X2 you are looking at is a bit overkill. I would go for the Sempron and spend the extra bucks on a hardware encoder card. That would reduce the CPU load and hence the heat produced.

Incidently my system now is quieter than my TV is when its on mute. Even my speakers hum louder than the noise produced by the PC.

Going to add a second TV card real soon, I suppose that will test the CPU a bit more.

Good luck with your build what ever you decide.

sundevil_1997 · Post by **sundevil_1997** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:05 pm

justblair wrote:Bearing in mind that the 2100 pally is a 75w processor at stock Mhz/Volts I think I have done well to run it passive. I think it proves though that for HTPC use the X2 you are looking at is a bit overkill. I would go for the Sempron and spend the extra bucks on a hardware encoder card. That would reduce the CPU load and hence the heat produced. .

Up until recently, I would have agreed. However, I just last week ordered an Athlon 64 3200 and the parts to go with it because I was attempting to add HD capability to my HTPC. Prior to that, I was using an P4 1.8 GHz which did just fine for standard definition TV...but trying to playback HD video, the processor was maxed out at 95% or higher the whole time....and a LOT of skipped frames. That system had a GeForce 6600 card in it too, and using the NVidia Codec.

As was mentioned above too, if you plan on doing any postprocessing of video (ffdshow) to squeeze some more definition out of your standard DVD, it will also require a lot of GHz's.

justblair · Post by **justblair** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:28 pm

Up until recently, I would have agreed. However, I just last week ordered an Athlon 64 3200 and the parts to go with it because I was attempting to add HD capability to my HTPC. Prior to that, I was using an P4 1.8 GHz which did just fine for standard definition TV...but trying to playback HD video, the processor was maxed out at 95% or higher the whole time....and a LOT of skipped frames. That system had a GeForce 6600 card in it too, and using the NVidia Codec.

I would still think that something around 3ghz is still more realistic, My system is probably at the edge of whats possible.

Are you using Dxva to run your media content? I found that enabling this feature on the graphics card sliced the CPU usage down dramatically. I could not have run the setup undervolted before doing this.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:51 pm

The thing is, I cannot say for sure that this machine will only do one thing at a time, after all the whole point of MCE 2005 is extenders, something I am quite likely to make use of later on. Therefore I may need that power boost. The 3800+ is the lowest X2.

I might switch to the reccomended 250GB drives if none of the 500s are anywhere near quiet.

Unfortunately ripping to HDD isn't realistic considering the number of TV series box sets I have.

I'd be prepared to got for a mini tower+ case if it's necessary for cooling, which it likely will be. As I recall, aren't non-metallic cases supposed to be quieter? But trying to get a nice looking plasic case? Yuck.

Something with a single 120mm fan would surely be best? Is it possible to get passive 350W PSUs?

For viewing movies/TV are their any advantages to stand alone graphics cards Vs. on-board graphics?

Bob_the_lost · Post by **Bob_the_lost** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:28 pm

Don't get a dual core CPU. The x2 is wonderful for multitasking true, but when you say multitasking we're talking playing BF2 while transcoding a DVD. (I've got one but i'm special, my mummy said so)

That is completely different to the sort of multitasking you'll be doing with the HTPC, for gawd's sakes i've got an old XP 2500 Barton that serves as my HTPC (and for years now my main workhorse PC) and it's got CPU to spare.

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:38 pm

I think you're looking for a board based on the GeForce 6150

The MSI seems to be the best
Link[/url]

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:26 pm

I think I'm falling in line with a bog standard AMD64.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:40 am

As I recall, aren't non-metallic cases supposed to be quieter?

Yes. The problem with metal cases is that they act as a sort of "echo box" for the noise produced by the computer, and some even amplify the noise. However, Antec's P180 and P150 show that it is possible to make a quiet metal case. I would go for whatever case you like the look of and then work on silencing it (if necessary). Just about any case can be made silent with enough acoustic damping foam.

Is it possible to get passive 350W PSUs?

Yes: you have a choice of the FSP Zen, Silverstone ST30NF, Antec Phantom 350, the Thermaltake Fanless Purepower 350, and a couple of others which are a bit harder to find (ie Silentmaxx, Yesico, E-power Lion).

CX23882-19 · Post by **CX23882-19** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:22 am

You don't need a particularly powerful CPU for a HTPC. I have an MCE2005 system with a 1GHz PIII processor and it's fine. CPU usage viewing live TV is ~30-40% because the graphics card does most of the work.

The only things you need to be careful of are:
- DX9-class graphics card for VMR9 support.
- Hardware-encoding TV card such as Hauppauge PVR-150 or ATI Theatre 550 Pro

If you need HD then obviously the CPU requirements will be higher. Using a Radeon 9800 Pro and Athlon XP 2500+ I could play back WMV-HD with 80-85% CPU usage (for 1080 clips). That really was borderline, although with a card which can support HD-decode such as X800XL the CPU usage dropped dramatically.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:56 am

It appears I know squat about the way the graphics card relates to an HTPC. Any online references for this?

CX23882-19 · Post by **CX23882-19** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:19 pm

For MCE 2005 any of these are fine:
- Radeon 9600 or later
- GeForce FX or later

But Radeon 9100 IGP is not really suitable, and some people have reported problems with the GeForce 6100 IGP too. I don't know the validity of these problems though - the 6100 should work (on paper at least).

One thing to bear in mind with MCE2005. Microsoft chose to use DX-Exclusive mode for full screen (why? who knows), which means that you are effectively running the card in 3D mode. My X800XL gets very hot running MCE2005 fullscreen and so has to speed up its fans.

So you may be better off getting a Radeon 9600 than a more modern card (and if you're going to go the ATI route the MPEG2 acceleration/deinterlacing didn't change until the latest generation X1xxx cards) for quietness when running MCE.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:23 pm

Are their no fanless solutions for the newer cards then? I know Zalman used to make some.

justblair · Post by **justblair** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:27 pm

You can get a good fanless Ati 9600 these days that are pretty good for running HTPC. As I mentioned before I am using the AIW version which is fanless. Switch on the DXva and the processor hardly breaks a sweat.

Today I Just upgraded the Tuner to a V-Tech DVB unit (SD) and the processor sits at 30% usage when watching TV. My CPU temps just went down 4c at max

I think definately that you should aim to have as much as the media processing done with hardware solutions if you are trying to get silence. The more processor cycles you can save the better for heat production and the quieter the case.

I'd go for the following

Athlon64 processor speed unimportant,
Mobo.. Not so important, optical out is good if your plugging into a decent Amp/dolby decoder
2x HD TV card with decoder chips. (Watch out some of them use the processor to decode which makes for slower channel changes and more CPU cycles used) Nova-T range advertises on some models as software decoded.
Ati 9600pro or higher (Got to have directx hardware support)
Possibly a hardware encoder as well if you are ripping DVD's.

As for hardware
If its just for HTPC use that should leave you with a major league capable machine.

Looking for good resouces for this kind of stuff myself, I haven't really found just the one. What I have been doing is searching the MCE forums. The Australian foruum is good as is XPMCE

xpmediacentre.com.au
http://www.xpmce.com/forum/

On the Aussie forum watch out on their tech advice on TV tuners though, They have no digital support for digital tuners within MCE so have to do some stuff that we dont have to worry about to get theirs working. On the other hand the advice on the XPMCE forums and others was that the Vstream tuner I am using is impossible to get working on MCE. It most ceertainly does and is very good too.

But I found that really I had to learn all I have from a mixture of AV/MCE forums and manufacturers sites. And of course this site here is the very best when it comes to silencing advice. I dont think that any of the other HTPC forums come close. I guess there are a few jet engines sitting around living rooms through ignorance.

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:00 pm

Sempron 3000 has a sweet mix of power and low price,and runs very cool,easily can be done with a passive HS. Buy a basic case,a power saw some nice wood,stain and varnish. Make them walls thicker,sound blocking and make it look good too.

Semprons run on socket 754. 754 boards tend to not have a lot of bells and whistles but there's good stuff too. Look at the ECS K8M800-M2,about $50 at New Egg-and check the reviews there. It is a Mini-Atx,about 9 1/2 " square. There are no mobo fans on it. If you read through the mobo reviews for 754 mobos,it seems there's often several that hint at frequent problems,including DOA boards, boards that don't play nice with hardware,have coil whine....there are 4 pages of reviews on THIS mobo and it's all happy campers.

The ATI Theatre 550 chip is considered the deluxe TV tuner card. It is fanless. you use it with a regular basic AGP card like a 9200 series Radeon.,which also can be fanless. "Deluxe" Vid cards are only superior in rendering for games,have little advantage otherwise and typically are toasty bastards with tiny LOUD fans. I just bought an M-Audio Revolution 5.1 soundcard. For music quality it is superb and under $80.

That Mobo has 3 pci slots. Your tuner card and soundcard will use 2. The Mobo HAS onboard video,it may be adequate to use that with the tuner card,but a seperate AGP unit won't suck off the system RAM. With USB 2.0,a mobo doesn't really need lots of PCI slots.

Coolmax's CR 450 is a nice PSU with a giant 140mm fan that runs at a gentle 1000 rpm. In a typical setup,that fat fan is just inches from the CPU,so you stick a big Ninja or NSC 2005,or Aerocool 1000 on the cpu,fanless and that PSU fan can give all the needed airflow.

HDD's....Samsung and Seagate are the quietness leaders. How they are mounted or encased is a BIG factor. I recall hearing NEC had a fairly quiet DVD burner. You can get software to slow,idle,any DVD for playback.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:20 am

I eagerly await the SPCR guide to building an HTPC

Sempron, reduced cache, isn't that going to hurt? Sorry, the Celeron has put an unrational fear of reduced cache in me.

I believe the general concensus around here is for some Seagate 250GB drive, yes?

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:58 am

I believe the general concensus around here is for some Seagate 250GB drive, yes?

Bear in mind that Seagate drives do not come with AAM (Automatic Acoustic Management). You may be better off with a Samsung Spinpoint 250GB.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:37 am

I'm not familiar with the term... maybe I got the wrong end of the stick. Damn this is complicated, if only I'd tried to silence a case before

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:31 am

AAM softens seeks.

stupid · Post by **stupid** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:30 am

I personally would get a socket 939 Athlon 64. The S754 is near the end of it's life; Q2 2006 IIRC. The S939 will take over S754 as the value side of the Athlon series when socket M2 debutes in Q2 2006. By going with S939 you will guarantee yourself an upgrade path for another 2 years, including a dual core CPU if you choose.

Getting a Sempron 64 right with a S754 motherboard may save you a little money now, but if you intend on upgrading within 2 years, then I really don't see the point. Additionally, if you decide you want a value dual core CPU, then you'll have to buy a new S939 or SM2 motherboard.

If you do go for a S754 CPU then remember that it has a single channel memory controller which works best with 1 stick of RAM. The S939 has a dual channel memory controller which works best with 2 sticks of RAM.

Buying into socket 939 may cost you more upfront, but will save you money in the long run if you plan on upgrading.

Edit: The important thing to remember though is that cost is always a consideration. So if buying the S939 Athlon 64 will blow your budget, then there is nothing wrong with S754.

The smaller cache will affect performance, but will save money. A Sempron 64 3400+ would be roughly the equivalent to the Athlon 64 3200+ (in general).

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:00 pm

Money is not a concern. I know that saving pennies now costs you pounds later and I would be looking to go the 939 route.

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:42 pm

I advocated a 754,the new Venice 3000,or a Sempy 3000 or 3100 mainly because these babies are the low TDP,cool runners,with power as well as a nice price tag. An ECS K8M 800-M2 mobo and a Sempy 3000 adds up to around $140 at newegg,so in 2007,you wanna upgrade...just do it. In reality,a media box is not going to be playing Doom 3 for money while working in Autocad. You won't be doing a 4 disc SATA raid array or 4 gb RAM,or overclocks. What's sweet is getting the fans down to a real minimum and running it,or them very slow and quiet. Got money,fine,get a good soundcard. Stick a fat Ninja on that 754 Venice and put a big fan PSU next to it and that could be all the airflow needed...a good thing

Bob_the_lost · Post by **Bob_the_lost** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:55 pm

Quitch wrote:Money is not a concern. I know that saving pennies now costs you pounds later and I would be looking to go the 939 route.

Yes and no, 939 is on it's way out, assume that your HTPC will last 2 years, at that stage 939 will be phased out and you'll be faced with buying an old technology as it phases out, or buying a new motherboard with new features and all the jazz associated.

I don't tend to upgrade CPUs without upgrading the mobo as well. So it may be a false economy to go 939. Or it might be prudent buying, that way you could get an X2 later on.

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:01 pm

...as to issues of multitasking,future tech,down the road if you need as "Power" machine with 2007 or 2008 technology,build it,put it the bedroom,let the kids watch a DVD on the HTPC while you crunch numbers,whatever,undisturbed. If this machine can't handle something,then it's probably a bit heavy for a silent all purpose rig anyhow. Bear in mind that any variant of an A64 3000 is actually overkill for 3/4 of the software now available. If it is quiet and does the job,what makes it obsolete? As far as cutting edge,heck,ALL the current stuff will be obsolete,like my socket A XP athlon....which actually works quite well.