A Protools rig. Advice needed.

tha_lode · Post by **tha_lode** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:52 am

Hi.

I´m considering building a PC with the following specs:

ASUS P5WD2 Premium (i955X chipset) (LGA775 socket)
Kingston HyperX 2048MB 800MHz DDR2 (2x1024MB)
Intel Pentium D 830 (3.0GHz) (Smithfield)
Matrox P 750 triplehead

All crammed into an Antec P-180.

I also need a some discs. A couple of fairly fast SATA discs.

The computer is for a Protools Le rig with a Digi002 connected.

Do you guys have any opinions about cooling, discs and PSU?
Does Pentium D generate a lot of heat?

I won´t have the computer in the room I´m working in, so noise isn´t critical. Still; it can´t be too noisy either.

Any input appreciated.

Frode, Norway.

edit: "typo"

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:36 am

Audio is my main interest in computers and I consider a VSRY quiet system especially important. Audio is not that CPU intensive. It is pretty demanding of HDD performance as large files are being used and procssed.

I'd forget Intels,though I guess a mobile Pentium could be okay. The regular Prescotts etc put of FAR more heat than a good A64. A Venice 3200 or maybe a 3500 would be plenty of CPU,with 1gb of RAM. It can be run passive with a Ninja.

MSI and ECS on their better 939 boards have PCI slots dedicated for high end soundcards. It's important to have low electronic noise and interferance,and these makers took extra care to see that a slot had a cleaner signal. Otherwise...you get the trial and error method. I'd likely go with a couple of 200gb SATA2 Samsung Spinpoint HDDs,which are the quietest while having quick performance.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:32 am

The regular Prescotts etc put of FAR more heat than a good A64. A Venice 3200 or maybe a 3500 would be plenty of CPU,with 1gb of RAM. It can be run passive with a Ninja.

When you say it can be run passive, do you mean "with no CPU fan attached to the heatsink, only on airflow provided by case fans" or really passive, as in no fans in the case at all?

omega_1 · Post by **omega_1** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:21 am

jaganath wrote:
The regular Prescotts etc put of FAR more heat than a good A64. A Venice 3200 or maybe a 3500 would be plenty of CPU,with 1gb of RAM. It can be run passive with a Ninja.

When you say it can be run passive, do you mean "with no CPU fan attached to the heatsink, only on airflow provided by case fans" or really passive, as in no fans in the case at all?

you need atleast a case fan to provide some kind of airflow...you can run a completly passive system, unless your room temperature is like 10c...or if you buy one of the zalman cases that are over 1000$ and have heatpipes all over...

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:47 am

AMD processors perform far better than Intel, when it comes to Pro Tools. There are quite a few threads in the DUC (Digidesign User Conference) on the subject. They tested how many channels they could record and now many plugins they could use simultaneously. AMD beat Intel every time.

AMD processors also run cooler and quieter, so they are more suited to a recording system. I have a Pro Tools Mbox system, myself, and even a lowly Athlon 64 3200+ was way more power than I ever needed with Pro Tools.. I would recommend a cheap Socket 939 AMD CPU and a motherboard with passive northbridge/southbridge cooling (one of Asus' boards, preferably.) For the heatsink, you can't go wrong with the Scythe Ninja and no fan. For the PSU, I would recommend the Seasonic S-12 330. 330 watts is plenty of power for what you need and Seasonic PSU's are legendary for their low noise and high quality.

Asus recently released their ASUS A8N-VM CSM, which hosts the new Nvidia integrated graphics chipset (6150) that actually doesn't suck! This board would probably be ideal for Pro Tools because it has integrated video (DVI and VGA), LAN, Sound (which you probably won't use because you'll be using Pro Tools Audio), Firewire, passive northbridge cooling, and Q-Fan. If memory serves, the Digi002 runs off firewire. This motherboard and no add-in cards and you've got all you need for a quiet and powerful Pro Tools rig.

*EDIT* I recommend Samsung hard drives over any other brand because they are incredibly quiet and today's IDE or SATA drives have enough bandwidth that you will run out of record channels before you run out of hard drive bandwidth, provided you have a dedicated hard drive for the OS and a dedicated drive for recording audio. My Pro Tools software will let me record up to 24 tracks, simultaneously, and one Samsung hard drive has no problem doing that.

My audio recording/gaming system consists of an Antec P150 case, Seasonic S12 PSU, Asus A8N32-SLI (overkill, but I use it for gaming, too), Athlon 64 3800+ X2 (also overkill for Pro Tools), 1 GB RAM, 150 GB Western Digital Raptor for OS (surprisingly quiet, when suspended), Samsung drive in firewire enclosure for audio recording, Scythe Ninja with no fan, 120mm Nexus Real Quiet exhaust fan (hooked up to CPU fan header and thermally controlled by Speedfan), Geforce 6800GT with Zalman ZF700 at 4.25V, 92mm Nexus Real Quiet Fan at 5V for additional hard drive cooling. This system has 4 fans, total, but all of them are extremely undervolted or temperature controlled and kept incredibly quiet.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:35 am

you can't run a completely passive system, unless your room temperature is like 10c...or if you buy one of the zalman cases that are over 1000$ and have heatpipes all over...

I run a completely passive system, my room temp is more like 20C and I certainly wouldn't waste $1000 on one of the Zalman TNN cases. An undervolted mobile CPU and a modified PSU help a lot.

omega_1 · Post by **omega_1** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:19 am

jaganath wrote:
you can't run a completely passive system, unless your room temperature is like 10c...or if you buy one of the zalman cases that are over 1000$ and have heatpipes all over...
I run a completely passive system, my room temp is more like 20C and I certainly wouldn't waste $1000 on one of the Zalman TNN cases. An undervolted mobile CPU and a modified PSU help a lot.

so your telling me you have absolutely NO fans in your rig ? no fans on your psu/case/gfx/nb/cpu ? just so you know i wasnt recomending the zalman...rofl...that would be crazy...lol

Tumlehund · Post by **Tumlehund** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:25 am

I'd definately go for a dual core socket 939, e.g. 3800+ X2. Don't go for the Intel, it uses too much power and therefore generates too much heat. Hence it's harder to keep silent.

It seems plugins befit greatly from dual core:
http://www.digidesign.com/compato/xp/002rack/

I think the Asus A8N32-SLI would be a great choice. Even though you won't be using SLI, you can always use the 2nd 16x slot for other cards than a graphics card. The A8N32-SLI's 8 phase design will provide a very stable environment and will be perfect for Protools.

For a heatsink use the Ninja - it's amazing!

The Seasonic S12 is a great PSU - you cannot go wrong here. If you're not going to use more the 2 SATA power connectors and no SLI, the go for the 330W or 430W.

For hard drives, I'd use one for system/programs and one for data/recording. Western Digital, Hitachi and Seagate are all great.

spolitta · Post by **spolitta** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:04 am

ronrem wrote:Audio is my main interest in computers and I consider a VSRY quiet system especially important. Audio is not that CPU intensive. It is pretty demanding of HDD performance as large files are being used and procssed.

I'd forget Intels,though I guess a mobile Pentium could be okay. The regular Prescotts etc put of FAR more heat than a good A64. A Venice 3200 or maybe a 3500 would be plenty of CPU,with 1gb of RAM. It can be run passive with a Ninja.

MSI and ECS on their better 939 boards have PCI slots dedicated for high end soundcards. It's important to have low electronic noise and interferance,and these makers took extra care to see that a slot had a cleaner signal. Otherwise...you get the trial and error method. I'd likely go with a couple of 200gb SATA2 Samsung Spinpoint HDDs,which are the quietest while having quick performance.

yes audio is your MAIN interest but you hardly know anything about it. You have given him enough false information. I'm actually very suspired on how much confident you have when you talk about audio.

Anyways back to the topic, it been discussed more than thousands of times on cubase forum that AMD cpus are more suited for a DAW setup. Since you are not going for PT HD setup then you want a dual core setup as fast as you can afford. if you are not over clocking then you might want to go for AMD 4800+, if you are on budget then 4400+ or Opteron 175. Also you want 2GB dual channel fast ram, it might not be enough for you but you can always upgrade to 4Gb if needed. For motherboard you can go for Asus A8N Premium since its NB passive ready. you can go for a X300 video card so it wont generate lots of heat. Case wise both P180 and P150 are good for you. If you have plans to have more than 3 hard drives then go for P180 for sure. Seasonic 430W should be the first PSU on your list and for heatsink no question Ninja is the best hands down.

I'm actually posting my DAW in the gallery soon, you could take a look to get some ideas. good luck.

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:14 am

jaganath wrote:
The regular Prescotts etc put of FAR more heat than a good A64. A Venice 3200 or maybe a 3500 would be plenty of CPU,with 1gb of RAM. It can be run passive with a Ninja.

When you say it can be run passive, do you mean "with no CPU fan attached to the heatsink, only on airflow provided by case fans" or really passive, as in no fans in the case at all?

If I say PASSIVE SYSTEM I mean all passive,no fans,but that's a special niche for now,not too cost effective. A PSU with a 120 or 140 mm fan near a big "passive" heatsink may give enough cooling,but a slow speed 120 should give some margin of error.

I've used Soundforge,Audition,Wavelab,have done hundreds of flac>Wave converts or the reverse...all on a pretty old + slow system. I grant a Venice 3200,1 GB RAM may be a few secs slow compared to a 4400 X2 with 2gb,but the slower chip will produce less heat,and so you can make the system quieter. Any question about that? Whether doing audio restoration,remastering,mixing or whatever,a key is HEARING the material. You don't want the gear adding background noise. You DO want the best Near Field Monitors you can buy or build. Can you afford them AND a good power amp and a 4400 X2? Fine. My point is the REAL on the job difference,for this situation,does not justify going that far. A 3800 X2...maybe. I can tell you that Pro Tools,Wavelab,Audition,tend to like a lot of monitor area. The Matrox vid card shines in giving detail and handling several screens. It is kind of pricey.

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:29 am

cmcquisition seems to have a good idea on what works with Pro Tools,I don't think I'd go with onboard video mainly because it draws off system RAM,usually right when you need the RAM most. You can go with a basic,passive dual monitor Radeon or GeForce,probably won't cost much.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:06 am

ronrem wrote:cmcquisition seems to have a good idea on what works with Pro Tools,I don't think I'd go with onboard video mainly because it draws off system RAM,usually right when you need the RAM most. You can go with a basic,passive dual monitor Radeon or GeForce,probably won't cost much.

For what it's worth, today's onboard video solutions use a predetermined amount of RAM that you can set in the BIOS. It doesn't go up or down. They just always use 64 MB (for example.)

That said, a real cheap Nvidia card will do just as well. You don't need high-end graphics for Pro Tools, you just need a card with stable drivers that can span across multiple monitors (most Pro Tools systems use dual monitors, one for the edit windows and one for the mix window).

Cams · Post by **Cams** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:03 am

Some good, if conflicting advice so far. FWIW, one of my system's uses is for recording digital audio, but it's mainly just two channels of acoustic guitar into Audition and adding some EQ and effects.

See system 1 listed in my sig file for details of what's in it. Bear in mind that it's a year old now and things move quickly. I'd go dual core now for sure, and I just added a Ninja to my family computer (system 2) which I can run fanless and get no higher than 43ºC after a few hours of folding. The Zalman CNPS ALCU with fan that was in the system before the Ninja used to hit 70ºC and above after just a few minutes of load.

I also recommend that you budget for good near-field monitors, and dual monitors is a must. I use powered Wharfedale monitors and they're good value for money. You might also consider an external ADC and preamps to take some load off your soundcard.

I shall watch this thread with interest.
Cams

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:49 am

While you may not need any more size,this week I saw a case,I-Star Nitro AX, roviewed ay OC Modding.com and modthebox.com. This is potentially a big step up from a p180 at about the same price. It's a heavier gauge steel for the case,like an Antec has rubber drive mounts,has removable mobo tray,takes 120mm fans,has ample room (full tower) for a lot of drives and silencing. Has a well thought out duct. It has a very impressive front door,a negative for the Antecs,in that the Nitro's is Aluminum,and the upper bay has a secondary hinge so your main DVD/CD burner can open with the main door close. Further,the main door swings open...and then can be slid back along the side and outof the way. That's how it should be. Nothing on this is flimsy. Check it out. Easily could be modded for silence.

tha_lode · Post by **tha_lode** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:54 am

Thanks for all the replys.

The case looked cool, but it´ll be standing in the hall so noise isn´t really that important. Also you can´t get it in Norway and importing it is a bit too much hassle.

I have a decent pair of Genelecs so monitoring isn´t on my shopping list now.

Gfx wise I´m going for Matrox Parhelia APVe since I get dualhead plus video out.

I see alot of people talking about AMD and none about Intel, so it seems the way to go. Also everyone talks about Asus. Why is that?

tha_lode · Post by **tha_lode** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:12 am

What about this cofig?

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+
Antec Performance P180
Asus A8N-E
2x Kingston ValueRAM PC3200 1024MB
Matrox Parhelia APVe
2x Samsung SpinPoint P120 250 GB S-ATA

I chose the Athlon 4400+ because that is the lowest that offer 2mb L2 cache.
Kind of pricey tho.

Does anyone make motherboards with the same functions and chipset, but with an AGP port instead?

That way I could put in a Matrox P750 instead and save some dough and still get everything I need.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:48 am

tha_lode wrote:What about this cofig?

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+
Antec Performance P180
Asus A8N-E
2x Kingston ValueRAM PC3200 1024MB
Matrox Parhelia APVe
2x Samsung SpinPoint P120 250 GB S-ATA

I chose the Athlon 4400+ because that is the lowest that offer 2mb L2 cache.
Kind of pricey tho.

Does anyone make motherboards with the same functions and chipset, but with an AGP port instead?

That way I could put in a Matrox P750 instead and save some dough and still get everything I need.

That looks pretty good, but I think the CPU and memory choices are probably overkill. The only way I can see you using that much CPU or RAM is if you run a LOT of third-party RTAS plugins (20+ Focusrite D3's or something.) You don't NEED 2 MB CPU cache. I think the cheapest dual core AMD CPU will be more than plenty and the only time you will see any advantage over a single core CPU is when you're running a lot of RTAS plugins. The Pro Tools software, itself, is a single-threaded application. It doesn't benefit from dual CPU's. Those RTAS plugins, however, each run their own thread, so it is this multitasking that can benefit from dual cores.

In regards to your question about Asus, the reason there are so many recommendations, here, is because Asus has a very good reputation for stability, performance, and quiet operation. Their Q-Fan technology, which varies CPU fan speed by temperature is very popular, with some of us, though Speedfan (a software tool) can do much the same, with many motherboards, including Asus, and offers more fine-tune control.

PCI-Express is a better long-term choice than AGP, because it is easier on the CPU and memory systems, while offering much higher performance (which you probably won't be utilizing with just 2D Pro Tools apps.)

As for video cards, most of Nvidia's video cards offer dual monitor output and a TV output (often with high definition option). Those Matrox cards cost $200-300 and they are just overkill for Pro Tools. I think you would be better off with a cheap Nvidia card with dual monitor and TV output. Do you plan on using tradition CRT monitors or LCD? If LCD, then dual DVI would be preferable. You can get dual DVI and TV output from Nvidia for less than $140. If you don't need DVI, then dual monitor output and TV out is less than $100.

My recommendation, earlier, for the Asus Nvidia 6150-based motherboard still stands (if you don't need dual DVI). That board has passive northbridge cooling, excellent performance (it is basically an Nforce 4 motherboard with integrated graphics.) It has one DVI, one VGA, and an optional (you have to buy it from Asus) TV output.

spolitta · Post by **spolitta** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:30 am

tha_lode wrote: Also everyone talks about Asus. Why is that?

Asus has a good reputation of making good quality boards in the past and also currently they have some very solid boards such as the A8N premium which is one of the a few NF4 passively cooled boards. I've owned many good boards such as Abit and gigabyte but Asus was one of those boards for me that once I bought and installed it I could totally forget about it because it just works.

kamina · Post by **kamina** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:32 am

I would definatly verify how the protools soundcard works togeather with the nforce4 motherboard. There are alot of problems with pci-express motherboards and pci-soundcards. On the Amd front the only motherboard chipsets which work well that I have heard of is the nforce4 pro (used in dual processor rigs), and with Intel the 945 / 955 chipsets.

The problem is smaller with dualcore cpu's, as the other core seems to be taking the extra overhead created. Still, even there the performance is worse then it is when using an agp-motherboard.

Could be this problem does not affect protools with their proprietery hardware, but it does affect just about all other pci-soundcards. I would say it's still worth looking into, as alot of people have been very disapointed.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:55 am

kamina wrote:I would definatly verify how the protools soundcard works togeather with the nforce4 motherboard. There are alot of problems with pci-express motherboards and pci-soundcards. On the Amd front the only motherboard chipsets which work well that I have heard of is the nforce4 pro (used in dual processor rigs), and with Intel the 945 / 955 chipsets.

The problem is smaller with dualcore cpu's, as the other core seems to be taking the extra overhead created. Still, even there the performance is worse then it is when using an agp-motherboard.

Could be this problem does not affect protools with their proprietery hardware, but it does affect just about all other pci-soundcards. I would say it's still worth looking into, as alot of people have been very disapointed.

His Pro Tools system doesn't have a PCI soundcard. It is an external unit that hooks up with firewire. The only possible issue that I can see is a compatibility issue with the firewire chipset, but this is pretty rare, these days, and easily rectified with a PCI firewire card, if necessary.

kamina · Post by **kamina** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:45 pm

Ah, my bad... I believe Texas Instruments firewire chips have traditionally worked best with most firewire soundcards, atleast this is the case with M-Audio. I would also make sure the firewire ends up directly in the pci-express buss, but I guess that would be the case in all new motherboards.

tha_lode · Post by **tha_lode** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:07 am

Kamina and cmquistion:
Compability is a major issue when were talking about digidesign-products. Their apps are extremely picky about the computer they are running on.

Most of the components i´ve picked are part of a system that a guy called Allen Hallada at the Digi-forum has put together. Alot of people have bought it and all are happy with it.

Chech it out.
http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php? ... t=1#360675

So, yeah, PCI or PCI-express isn´t that important for me, but compability is a big issue here. I´ve never spent more time reading forums about hardware and crosschecking than I have for this computer.

I have a Adaptec 4300 for connecting to the "soundcard" (Digi002). I think it has Texas Instruments Chipset, but anyway I know it works.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:15 am

tha_lode wrote:Kamina and cmquistion:
Compability is a major issue when were talking about digidesign-products. Their apps are extremely picky about the computer they are running on.

Most of the components i´ve picked are part of a system that a guy called Allen Hallada at the Digi-forum has put together. Alot of people have bought it and all are happy with it.

Chech it out.
http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php? ... t=1#360675

So, yeah, PCI or PCI-express isn´t that important for me, but compability is a big issue here. I´ve never spent more time reading forums about hardware and crosschecking than I have for this computer.

I have a Adaptec 4300 for connecting to the "soundcard" (Digi002). I think it has Texas Instruments Chipset, but anyway I know it works.

That's kinda funny. I know Allen, from my old days when I was more active at the DUC. He is a really good guy and no one knows more about Pro Tools performance on PC's. You're doing the right thing by spending extra time now, to avoid problems, later. I think that there are no issues with the firewire chipset on Nforce 4 motherboards, with Pro Tools. If you do have problems, however, the solution is as simple as putting your PCI firewire controller in a PCI slot. The advantage of using the onboard firewire is that it is probably on a PCI-Express bus, which means that it connects to CPU and memory resources directly, instead of being on a shared bus, like the PCI bus. This can mean increased performance, depending on your application. For Pro Tools, the bandwidth may be low enough that it doesn't make a difference, but it might.

Keep in mind that Allen's "Allenstein Machine" is the dream machine for Pro Tools, when you have no budget limit. You don't really need an $800 processor or a 256 MB video card. Also keep in mind that Allen isn't a silent PC nut like the folks around here, so some of the parts that he recommends are not what SPCR folks would consider "quiet" components.

tha_lode · Post by **tha_lode** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:23 am

The videocard is deifinetly overkill, but it is the only card I can find that does the job. (It is 128 mb)
The price will be about 13.000 NOK (around 2200 USD), which is ok.

I run a lot of plugins which draw alot of power, and I´m interested in getting into impulseresponse reverbs.

kamina · Post by **kamina** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:10 pm

cmcquistion wrote: I think that there are no issues with the firewire chipset on Nforce 4 motherboards, with Pro Tools. If you do have problems, however, the solution is as simple as putting your PCI firewire controller in a PCI slot. The advantage of using the onboard firewire is that it is probably on a PCI-Express bus, which means that it connects to CPU and memory resources directly, instead of being on a shared bus, like the PCI bus. This can mean increased performance, depending on your application. For Pro Tools, the bandwidth may be low enough that it doesn't make a difference, but it might.

I would consider this to be a very important point. Alot of nf4 boards have Texas Instruments firewire chips (my a8n32 does atleast).

I would also try to get a passive videocard, northbridge, and a better case (then what he is recomending). I have a 3800+ on my computer and it's fast. Sure the 4800+ is faster if you can afford it, but it's not even 1 1/2 times faster while it costs 3x more.

When you are building a rig for a specific purpose, it's still best to listen to the people who know best though. In this case the components which can cause compatibility problems are mainly the motherboard, firewire and videocard.

tha_lode · Post by **tha_lode** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:56 am

So, about PSU & cooling.

Anybody have opinions?

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:10 am

Seasonic S12 power supplies are the best for low noise and clean power, in my opinion. They are very high quality, so their "low" wattage PSU's (330 watt) are better than many 500-550 watt PSU's I've used. I have yet to build a computer that could not run completely stable off a S12-330. Of course, higher wattage S12's are available. Check out the recommended PSU's list, here at SPCR. Mike has some really good information, there, complete with real system testing, to show how much power you really need. (The Seasonic S12 series are the offspring of the Super Silencer and Super Tornado series.)

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html

For case fans, you can't beat the Nexus Real Quiet fans. They are a little pricey, but incredibly quiet.