Is microATX suitable for a multimedia PC?

[Daravon]

I am considering building This MicroATX motheroboard into a multimedia/HTPC with these parts (minus the ATX applicable ones)http://www.newegg.com/product/product.a ... 6815116620.
The goal is a multimedia home PC with mild HTPC capabilities. No/light gaming.

My question is if this is a wise idea or if I should stick with ATX. I want microATX for fashion and space reasons, but I don't know if it's possible to build a quiet setup with a 3700+under the hood, and SPCR apparently is short on microATX enclosure reviews.

[garmpe]

micro is totally fine for HTPC. I'd reccomend looking around the SPCR site for comments on the ASUS mobo. I'd recommend checking out the DFI RS482 before you buy anything. It has on-board graphics if you choose to use it (I will be) but also has a PCI-E slot if you want a higher end graphics solution.

I haven't found decent micro case so far but I don't want one so I haven't looked too hard. From what I've seen the new antec one should be pretty good, I just don't like the psu it comes with (too many cables laying around unused for my setup). That said, it should offer some awesome cooling capabilities.

Garmpe

[stupid]

Using a m-ATX doesn't have any affect on noise. Actually that's not true because all boards based on the GeForce 6100/6150 are passively cooled. That's a good thing. The only real shortcoming with any m-ATX MB is the fact that there are only two PCI slots. Also be aware that if you decide to add in a powerful graphics card one of the PCI slot may be blocked because some powerful graphics card may have larger than normal heatsink fans. A m-ATX is a viable HTPC since I have one myself. Currently, the Geforce 6100/6150 is the most powerful integrated GPU solution, but there are motherboards based on the ATI Radeon XPRESS 200 that you may want to consider.

Get this Athlon 64 3700+ it runs with only 1.35v instead of 1.4v. The reason why is because AMD recently refined their 90nm process where less electron leakage occurs, this results in better efficiency and slightly less heat. It's only $3 more than the "older" 3700+, a bargain considering lower heat output.

Now the real brain teaser is which m-ATX case to get? I have the Antec Aria it's a good case, but airflow is one of it's shortcomings. A new version of the case has been released since I just read a post here at SPCR. There is now a grill on top of the case to help evacuate hot air. So that takes care of one problem. The other shortcoming has to do with the placement of the PSU, it will most likely overhang the CPU so that will limit you to a heatsink fan of about 75mm tall. The 3rd shortcoming is the fact that the 300w PSU is proprietary so if it dies you need to get a replacement from Antec.

Another HTPC case you may want to consider is the SILVERSTONE SST-SG01-B; it the case for my potential HPTC upgrade. The good is that it can take any standard size ATX PSU. The bad things are 1) it's expensive, 2) it does not come with a PSU.

Do those two case look too much like a PC? How about the SILVERSTONE LASCALA SST-LC11B-M? It looks more like an audio component box or a DVD player. The bad thing it is very expensive.

Okay, if you want to spend less than $100 on a case that comes with a standard size and replaceable PSU how about the ASPIRE X-QPACK-NW-BK/420? The bad thing about is that the plastic carry handle is a bit flimsy can flexes too much, and some people stated that case itself is a bit "creeky" until all the PC components has been installed.

Just remember that while a case can help reduce noise, it is more important you select quiet components. Namely the heatsink fan combo, and hard drives. Hard drives are a bit easier, the Samsung Spinpoints are generally known to be the quietest hard drives you can get, short of going for 2.5" notebook hard drives. The heatsink fan combo is rather difficult since the case itself limits you to the size of the biggest heatsink you can get, while the motherboard can limit you to the heatsink fan that is compatible with the motherboard.

In general many poster will say that the Scythe Ninja is the best HSF to get, the problem is that it is 5.9" or 150mm tall. Unfortunately from the list of HSF reviewed here at SPCR, none of them are 75mm or shorter including a fan. I am sticking my neck out on this recommendation, but the ARCTIC COOLING ACS64U 90mm is a possible solution, but it is 75mm so it is equal to the my guess that the clearance between the CPU and the bottom of the PSU is 75mm. Coming in at a shorter 72mm, and yet again sticking my neck out, is the MASSCOOL 5F521B1M3CG 80mm.

Whatever HSF you decide to buy, don't forget to consider the FAN MATE 2 Fan Controller to lower the speed of the fan, thus reducing noise.

[Felger Carbon]

If you are looking for a uATX case with outstanding cooling, I heartily recommend this one. Has a 120mm exhaust fan and a 120mm input fan in a true uATX case (~14.5" high, ~16.3" deep).

I have two in use and a third for a planned future build. If you want good cooling and quiet, the 120mm fans are extremely important. 90mm fans on the usual uATX case cannot cool quietly.

[Daravon]

Thanks for the good info on the processor!

Considering that case, with a nice fullsize (right? Do I need a special PSU) SPCR-recommended PSU. How much power do I need?

I'm not sure which of these MOBO (or other) to go with, the DFI has more features with S/PDIF out and Svideo out, but does the ASUS have better graphics?

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.a ... 6813131570
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.a ... 6813136007

This is my wish list. The HDD is for a different PC, I have a Seasonic.
https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wi ... rsion[img]

[stupid]

Thanks for the good info on the processor!

Considering that case, with a nice fullsize (right? Do I need a special PSU) SPCR-recommended PSU. How much power do I need?

I'm not sure which of these MOBO (or other) to go with, the DFI has more features with S/PDIF out and Svideo out, but does the ASUS have better graphics?

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.a ... 6813131570
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.a ... 6813136007

This is my wish list. The HDD is for a different PC, I have a Seasonic.
https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wi ... rsion[img]

Ummm... Not sure what you mean by "that case." As for a PSU something around 300w is more than enough.

While the Asus will have a more powerful integrated GPU, the DFI's integrated CPU is probably more suited for video since it is ATI. S-Video is a very nice connection to have, my HTPC is connected to my PC via S-Video. The nVidia 6150 (Asus) will be more appropriate for "lite" gaming.

The DFI seems to be a nice board the PCI-e x1 slot in between PCI and PCI-e x16 slot is good just in case you want to drop in a powerful video card in the future. The only problem with DFI is that their motherboards don't really get along with Seasonic S12 PSU which is almost the defacto standard here at SPCR.

[stupid]

Based on your current wishlist (as of this post) the case you are thinking about doesn't specify if it uses a m-ATX PSU, or a standard ATX PSU. The Hauppauge you selected is the MCE version, that means you need Windows Media Center in order for the card to work. So Windows XP Home/Pro will not work. Just something you need to be aware of.

[Daravon]

The Hauppauge you selected is the MCE version

To the best of my knowledge, it will indeed work with XP Home/Pro.

the DFI's integrated CPU is probably more suited for video since it is ATI. S-Video is a very nice connection to have....
The DFI seems to be a nice board the PCI-e x1 slot in between PCI and PCI-e x16 slot is good just in case you want to drop in a powerful video card in the future.

You are selling me on the DFI...thanks so much for the advice, I love it when people help me spend money

[MikeC]

A really good micro-atx case is just about to be released. Look for info on the Antec Fusion and its cheaper plastic-faced twin, the NSK2400, in this thread: http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=28128. I have word from Antec that the NSK2400 will be in our lab within a week.

I took many cooling and silencing ideas from the P180, and with Antec's design team, improved them, and applied them to a horizontal style case. The Fusion / NSK2400 is the result. I think it may be a better implementation of directed airflow cooling design than the P180. The only thing I am not completely sure about is whether it will come with a PSU or not, and which one. If the PSU is a new model, I'll have to pray that it doesn't go through the pains of the NeoHE.

Here's a brief walkthrough by someone at CES a couple months ago when Antec first showed these cases.
http://www.futurelooks.com//?m=show&id=243&page=1

[Felger Carbon]

Based on your current wishlist (as of this post) the case you are thinking about doesn't specify if it uses a m-ATX PSU, or a standard ATX PSU.

The ECE3505 takes a standard ATX PSU.

I'm about to get hit from all sides, but SPCR seems full of posts about expensive PSUs not working. I use a dirt-simple 300W PSU that comes with a 120mm fan and sells (at Newegg) for ~$26. I rip out the fan, throw it away, and substitute a good fan with the power lead pulled out of the PSU so that I can control the RPM @1000. Power Man is the PSU brand name IIRC. The good fan I use is either the Global Win NCB, sold by Coolerguys, or the Cooler-Master SUF, sold by lots of people including SVC.

[notareal]

I am considering building This MicroATX motheroboard into a multimedia/HTPC with these parts (minus the ATX applicable ones)http://www.newegg.com/product/product.a ... 6815116620.
The goal is a multimedia home PC with mild HTPC capabilities. No/light gaming.

My question is if this is a wise idea or if I should stick with ATX. I want microATX for fashion and space reasons, but I don't know if it's possible to build a quiet setup with a 3700+under the hood, and SPCR apparently is short on microATX enclosure reviews.

Take a look on MSI K8NGM2-FID, it's a great stable µATX board. Running it with nForce raid, no data corruption. It maight not be the best overcloking boad, but it is reported that Venice 3500+/San Diego 3700+ (multiplier x11) can also run at its max speed 2750MHz in this board.

[stupid]

Take a look on MSI K8NGM2-FID, it's a great stable µATX board.

It seems to have become a bit rare lately in the US. Newegg.com doesn't even list it as an out of stock item. ZipZoomFly lists that MB as out of stock, but with a hefty $110 price tag.

I think it is one of the better GeForce 6150 boards since there doesn't seem to as many issues as Asus' version. If I remember correctly it also has quite a few different TV-Out connection options.

[MikeC]

Based on your current wishlist (as of this post) the case you are thinking about doesn't specify if it uses a m-ATX PSU, or a standard ATX PSU.

The ECE3505 takes a standard ATX PSU.

I'm about to get hit from all sides, but SPCR seems full of posts about expensive PSUs not working. I use a dirt-simple 300W PSU that comes with a 120mm fan and sells (at Newegg) for ~$26. I rip out the fan, throw it away, and substitute a good fan with the power lead pulled out of the PSU so that I can control the RPM @1000. Power Man is the PSU brand name IIRC. The good fan I use is either the Global Win NCB, sold by Coolerguys, or the Cooler-Master SUF, sold by lots of people including SVC.

This is a throwaway off-topic aside, and I really shouldn't encourage such posts by responding, but....

Similar posts can be found in any website forum where users are pushing the envelope with the latest and greatest... which lots of SPCRs do. Part of the reason why "high end" PSUs are more afflicted is that they are the ones trying to be compliant with ATX12V v2.2. The Intel defined spec is actually turning out to be full of problems, and the PSUs that most faithfully adhere to the latest spec seem to encounter the most widespread problems. We can only hope that a v3.0 spec straightens things out, but the bottom line is that the PSU spec (and real power demand, too, actually) has changed way too often in the last 2 years, and all the hardware makers are struggling with the innumerable compatibility issues.

One very frequent issue seems to be motherboards that have a deliberate delay in powering up the processor for a split second at the start of the boot -- this apparently is done to retain compatibility with older less powerful PSUs, but with newer ones, it causes a too-low 12V line current state, causing the PSU not to start. So I have been told by more than one PSU maker. Min. load is a big problem, they say.

The simple solution is to add loading resistors within the PSU to guarantee the min load. Done simply, this will cost a couple percent in efficiency, maybe an additional 10-15W power draw all the time. (I believe this is the approach taken with the Antec Smart Power 2 series, which explains its relatively lower efficiency compared to the NeoHE from the same make.) The more sophisticated PSUs are apparently going to current-sensitive loading that only applies the resistance when the current is too low.

Finally, your elcheapo PSU may be cheap and work fine for you, but you can be assured it has poor efficiency (no more than 70% at any load, and probably much lower at typical idle loads), poor voltage regulation, no peak headroom, and is not manufactured to comply with green standards (which are now in effect in the EU). You votes with your money.

[QuietOC]

... Part of the reason why "high end" PSUs are more afflicted is that they are the ones trying to be compliant with ATX12V v2.2. The Intel defined spec is actually turning out to be full of problems, and the PSUs that most faithfully adhere to the latest spec seem to encounter the most widespread problems. We can only hope that a v3.0 spec straightens things out, but the bottom line is that the PSU spec (and real power demand, too, actually) has changed way too often in the last 2 years, and all the hardware makers are struggling with the innumerable compatibility issues.

Intel has often been the source of problematic "standards"--the whole RAMBUS push comes to mind. It is funny that the maker of the Netburst is suddenly interested in energy efficiency too.

Why do we need Intel spec'ed power supplies anyway?

I am not even sure how valid the "high efficiency" ratings are as most power supplies are NOT being run much at the load levels they reach these efficiencies anyway.

[MikeC]

Why do we need Intel spec'ed power supplies anyway?

er.... how about because they still sell ~80% of the CPUs used in the world?

I am not even sure how valid the "high efficiency" ratings are as most power supplies are NOT being run much at the load levels they reach these efficiencies anyway.

The ATX12V spec does define efficiency at various loads -- including low loads -- so raising these requirements are useful, they have helped to push up the average efficiency of PSUs. This is a good thing all around, imo.

[QuietOC]

Why do we need Intel spec'ed power supplies anyway?

er.... how about because they still sell ~80% of the CPUs used in the world?

Even granting that, which is hardly the case for the retail cpu market, last time I checked exactly zero of those Intel CPU's hook directly to an ATX/BTX power supply. Intel should spec household power outlets too, and transmission lines too while they are at it.

Intel power supply specs might make sense for those who use Intel manufactured motherboards, and maybe even for motherboard makers who use Intel chipsets and follow their motherboard designs.

[MikeC]

Even granting that, which is hardly the case for the retail cpu market, last time I checked exactly zero of those Intel CPU's hook directly to an ATX/BTX power supply. Intel should spec household power outlets too, and transmission lines too while they are at it.

Intel power supply specs might make sense for those who use Intel manufactured motherboards, and maybe even for motherboard makers who use Intel chipsets and follow their motherboard designs.

I think you're missing my point. Most component makers want to reach as broad a potential market as possible; it's a numbers game. By complying with the ATX12V spec, they insure the broadest market acceptance.

Look at it in reverse. Supposing the PSU does not comply with ATX12V. Then what does it comply with? Maybe EPS 12V -- also Intel defined, but not that relevant for PCs. There is no AMD defined spec. OK, so how about a big sticker that shouts "Universal Compatibility with All Modern CPUs & Motherboards" -- but the problem is, there's no such thing, and who is going to believe this without some kind of assurance of compliance with some higher spec?

I'm the one who said the Intel-defined ATX12V spec is flawed and needs yet another complete overhaul, and maybe all the players (both mobo makers and PSU makers) reined in to toe the new line. It's likely that if the spec was written by a consortium of interested parties including AMD, VIA, Sun and whoever else, the end result might be better, more universal (and maybe more expensive). But there's no way you can do without some kind of widely accepted PSU spec; the marketplace would become splintered and fragmented in a way no PC company would like to see.

Given the complexity of the current PC marketplace -- ranging from minimalist Pentium M / Turion 64 systems that barely need 70W max to dual vidcard gaming monsters that really draw >400W on the 12V line -- it's more important than ever for the DIY PC enthusiast to match your PSU to your system needs and don't assume easy PnP for PSUs.

[stupid]

Intel power supply specs might make sense for those who use Intel manufactured motherboards, and maybe even for motherboard makers who use Intel chipsets and follow their motherboard designs.

So what's your point? Standardization is evil and everyone should be require to have an electrical engineering degree so that they can look at an almost infinite amount of specificiations to put a PC together?

[QuietOC]

So what's your point? Standardization is evil and everyone should be require to have an electrical engineering degree so that they can look at an almost infinite amount of specificiations to put a PC together?

No, just that there might be no benefit in looking to Intel for product endorsement/standards, and while I do have an EE BS, its not really relevant (or needed).

I generally use readily available information on the Web to make informed computer component purchase decisions.

FWIW: I even seem to remember AMD power supply approval (sticker) being useful back before Netburst (I even splurged on the fastest CPU at the time which was a Thunderbird 1400 which cost me $115 or so.)

[QuietOC]

Back on topic:

I am considering building This MicroATX motheroboard into a multimedia/HTPC with these parts...

That motherboard wasn't the model of stability for me. That said, when it was working it worked well enough. The best thing I can say about was that it had a good resale value. It may have been fixed since I owned it, but I think there are better motherboards out there.

My question is if this is a wise idea or if I should stick with ATX. I want microATX for fashion and space reasons, but I don't know if it's possible to build a quiet setup with a 3700+under the hood, and SPCR apparently is short on microATX enclosure reviews.

Yes, you can do what you want with micro ATX. It might be slightly harder than using a full size case.

[Daravon]

https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wi ... ro+version

For money savings I decided to back back down to 1GB of ram after reading a few articles that 2GB is overkill unless you are a hardcore gamer. I hope I don't regret it; I WILL be using onboard video which hogs system resources....

I also hope I don't regret going cheap on the PSU, but that one has some pretty good reviews.

[QuietOC]

Hard drive: I would get the 16MB cache SATA WD3200KS for $10 more.

Edit: Opps! I see that you said this drive was for another system.