A Horror Story

Got a shopping cart of parts that you want opinions on? Get advice from members on your planned or existing system (or upgrade).

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

Post Reply
wainwra
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:24 am
Location: Starnberg, Germany

A Horror Story

Post by wainwra » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:36 am

My wife told me to buy my computer from a store.

"Too noisy", I said. "You can never get what you want" and "I can do better".

That's how the nightmare began. But lest you think this is another "no system will ever be quiet enough for you" story, or even a "how much time is this eating up" rant, let me put you straight. It's much worse than that.

I researched silent computing, discovered SPCR, started my planning and well generally obsessed a lot. As one does. I determined my requirements, chose an appropriate budget, and started selecting components.

As is to be expected, a number of components weren't quite available yet, so I had an annoying period (about two months) of ordering individual bits and pieces from all over, and waiting for everything to arrive.

Eventually it all did. Not in time for Christmas, and certainly not to my original budget, but I finally received the last item (an ATX 4pin extension cable) and was ready to start building my dream machine.

In common with (I'm sure) a large number of people I ran into a number of snags:
  • I didnt have a previous desktop system, so had no spare parts to swap bits out with
  • I hadn't had to mount a heatsink before, and was amazed with how hard it was (I have a Scythe Ninja, which the regulars around here say is relatively easy to fit)
  • I had not bought a floppy drive, which made BIOS updates and driver loading harder than it should have been
  • I hadn't bought an IDE drive, plumping instead for RAIDed SATA drives... which needed drivers loading
  • My motherboard was new enough to need BIOS updates in order to support my hardware platform
None of these things was insuperable though, and I cracked each one. I was making steady progress and had even started to plan on some cable maintenance, when all of a sudden, the machine refused to boot.

Had I changed anything? Of course I had - when you're building a new system, you make some change each time you turn it off and on again, but I swear I'd done nothing more than plug in the USB and firewire connectors into the motherboard in this particular yoyo.

But the machine wouldn't turn on. It wouldn't even POST. The fans whirred, but that was it. Unplugging stuff and retrying didn't help.

At this stage I had a problem, not having any spare parts to swap things with. When planning to build the machine myself, I'd asked myself what could be the worst that could happen. If a part proved faulty, I'd send it back, right?

But what part had failed in my machine? The CPU? Maybe I'd not mounted the heatsink properly, or let an air bubble get into the thermal paste? When I'd gone into BIOS, the CPU temperature had seemed fine and stable, but maybe I hadn't checked for long enough? How about the motherboard? Could I have damaged it? I have no carpets in the office, but I'm told that static can strike anywhere. Could the power supply have sent damaging currents/voltages through the motherboard? I didn't know.

So I ate humble pie, and called up a local computer dealer, and asked him to help. "Sure" he said (jawohl, actually) and took the bits away from me. That was a Friday. On the Saturday he called to say that he didn't like the look of that heatsink, so he'd removed it to fit "a much better one". In doing so he said he'd not found evidence of much thermal paste on the cpu. I'd just put enough on to cover the middle and most of one side; he said I needed enough to completely cover the heat spreader.

Well, a few of the things he said jarred somewhat with advice from SPCR, but I told myself he was the expert and started writing the experience off as a learning exercise. We discussed prices for new components, and he said he'd bring the machine round on Monday.

On Tuesday when I called up, I was told that the machine had died again. (Taking with it the brand new CPU that he'd bought in order to sell me...) Same symptoms that I'd had. He returned all the bits that day, understandably grumpy, and suggested I try returning the motherboard and the power supply to the original vendors.

I was expecting the PSU vendor to point a finger at the motherboard, and vice versa, so it was some time before I got up the energy to send things back. When I did, I was pleasantly surprised. Seasonic sent me a replacement power supply, and the motherboard dealer tested the board, pronounced it healthy and returned it to me, at no cost.

So last month I got up the courage to try again. I bought a new CPU - this time from the same place as sold me the motherboard - and a floppy drive, and both arrived super-fast. I started assembling everything again.

Boy was I careful. I took each step one at a time, adding one component each time. I'd got the right drivers and updated BIOS, had RAIDed the drivers and installed Windows on them, had installed all the motherboard drivers and even all the updates for Windows and Norton Security. All was going so well. I even started mentioning my computer to my friends again. It was so fast... and quiet!!

The machine was on for the best part of four days before it happened again. After one particular yoyo (to attach the game port, com port and USB ports to the motherboard connectors), the machine failed to turn on. I'd be running ASUS' Probe utility constantly, and can confidently say that the MB temp never got above 52 and the CPU temp never over 45, and yet on power-on I'd get no beep, no POST, just the little green light on the motherboard and the fans whirring.

Now I'm right back at square one again, except that I've spent €600 on CPUs which I'll never recover. Worse, there's nothing to suggest that the root problem isn't still there. How much confidence should I have that if I bought another CPU for the machine, that one would work?

My wife is only human. And who can really blame her for her "I told you so"? And "now are you finally going to get a proper computer from the store?"

The real horror is... maybe she's right.

JazzJackRabbit
Posts: 1386
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:53 pm

Post by JazzJackRabbit » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:45 am

I know I shouldn't be doing this, but lol... BTW did you pay for both burned CPUs? Shouldn't the local dealer pay for the second one since it was him that burned it, not you?

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:50 am

If I were you I would be mighty pissed of at your local computer company.

What kind of "computer technician" says that he doesnt like the look of that ninja. He's got to be some sort of twat.

Are the CPU's that you bought "retail" or OEM CPU's, and what type.???

Also could you tell us your case type, and what kind of wiring is used from the front panel to the motherboard, are the 8 individual connectors for the US or 1 block.???


Andy

ont
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 10:11 am

Post by ont » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:08 am

It might be your RAM that is the faulty part. I've build and troubleshoot lots of computers and your description seems to fit. The really annoying part is that for no apparent reason, it sometimes works and sometimes does not. Just yesterday I repaired my gf computer which suddenly failed to boot. Fans whiring, disks spinning, light shining but no beep, no POST, no picture on the monitor. I swapped parts in and out for a while until I thought of the RAM (yes that stupid bar tricked me many times :evil: ). All I had to do was to move the RAM to another slot in the machine and it magically worked. I remember that this happened to me on several machines and I think it is worth a try. Back in the days, when RAM still was quite expensive, I often had to try 3-5 different sticks of RAM until I found one that worked with the computer, even though they were the exact same model!

So my advice is, you try to put the RAM into another slot, (or take one stick out if you have two sticks) and try every possible configuration testing all the available slots on the machine, and if nothing works, send that stick in for a replacement. Faulty RAM is the only thing I know of, that can make the mainboard behave like you descriped (no beep,...). At every other fautly component the mb should beep for many times at startup (you'll easily distinguish the sound from the normal beep at boot).
You can even try to run the thing without any RAM installed. If your MB starts beeping away you can almost be certain it is your faulty RAM.

hope that helps you a little, greetings

edit: just saw you are from germany, you can PM in german if you need further advice!

lm
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:14 am
Location: Finland

Post by lm » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:34 am

Two times your machine died when you installed USB wires, and I suppose you mean those that connect to mobo and the front of the case.

Maybe they are faulty or you just connected them wrong both times?

timberwolf
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:34 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Post by timberwolf » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:09 am

Could you try the following test?

(You may wish to unplug the power cables that feed power to the hard drives before performing the following steps - and being a newbie I'm a little embarassed to remind you to unplug at the A/C mains plug before opening up your PC).

Test
-----
Attempt to power on the PC, the fans will spin for maybe a second or two and then it dies?

After it dies, wait a second or two then try to power on again, you might have to try this 6 to 10 times (maybe more). Did you manage to get the PC powered on for longer?

BTW I am curious have you had it confirmed that the AMD processors are broken?

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:20 am

hey "lm" you understood what I was getting at. The next question would be, could it be a short circuit in the front panel wiring.

Wainwra may be wiring it up correctly, but it might be wrong on the case.

I destroyed someones memory stick when I wired up someoned computer wrong, it could be that thats nuked you board(s).

Chances are that your CPU's are OK, just the mobo thats fried (I dont trust ASUS one little bit), I have never seen a fried mobo destroy any other components unless the PSU was to blame, which often take out the mobo, and sometimes everything else.

And get that Ninja back.


Andy

hapveg
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:40 pm

Post by hapveg » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:45 am

You mentioned you needed an extension cable, I assume you have a P180, my last 2 cases (P180 and Arctic Cooling) haven't had a basic bleeper, which I find a bit annoying. It's a very useful diagnostic tool. Modern bios's will verbally describe the error using the onboard soundcard, if you have it set that way in the bios.

Try plugging your speakers into the onboard sound port.

As mentioned above: memory, mine is a bit temperamental as well. Try only using 1 card at a time.

As for your PC powering on for a second and shutting down, mine does the same, only when I'm using 4 x SATA hdds, and only then when I'm using the 4 SATA power pins from my PSU. At first I thought a drive was faulty, or maybe a power connector, but after testing I found that it didn't matter which drive I connected, if all 4 SATA drives were connected the system would shutdown after a second.

The solution didn't make much sense, but it's worked fine for a few weeks, using 4 pin to SATA adapters. I dunno why, I'd think it'd put the same drain on the PSU, but for whatever reason my system is 100% stable using them.

You haven't posted your specs, but I'm using a semi-fanless Nestiq 620W PSU, incase it's important.

Finally, for spare parts you could buy a dirt cheap old PC from ebay, try to avoid Dell / Compaq since they tend to use non-standard components. A PCI graphics card from the last millennium worked with my PC when I killed two video cards a few months ago.

Raygers
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:17 pm
Location: Chatham, Ontario, Canada

Re: A Horror Story

Post by Raygers » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:14 pm

wainwra wrote:
Had I changed anything? Of course I had - when you're building a new system, you make some change each time you turn it off and on again, but I swear I'd done nothing more than plug in the USB and firewire connectors into the motherboard in this particular yoyo.


The machine was on for the best part of four days before it happened again. After one particular yoyo (to attach the game port, com port and USB ports to the motherboard connectors), the machine failed to turn on.
The act of connecting seems to be a common thread with this. If memory serves me correct there is a warning about crossing the firewire and USB ports on the Asus boards, the connectors are very similar. Yep, just found it,
Never connect a USB cable to the IEEE 1394 connectors. Doing so will damage the motherboard,
Is it possible that you did this ?

Ray

Post Reply