SPCR

Edit: System built; go to post #25 or so to see results

Components used:
Athlon 3500+, MSI K9NU(ULI M1697), WD 2500KS, Antec NSK4400, Radeon X300

CPU: Sempron 3000+ $60.00 shipped from zipzoomfly.com
I'm pretty sure about this one. I think I'll just be running C'n'Q, so this should be okay, no?

AFAIAA the 2800 and 3000 AM2 Semprons don't have CnQ.

The g-force is too hot for what?



This would get my vote:

The AsRock AM2NF4g

and a seagate 7200.9 160 gig drive.

I recently built a system like this and have had great luck -

The NSK works great in an A/V cabinet but consumes a lot of surface area when used on the average desk. I would find it overwhelming.

Yes, I think an NSK3300 would be much "cuter".

mr pink wrote:The g-force is too hot for what?

This would get my vote: The AsRock AM2NF4g and a seagate 7200.9 160 gig drive.

The NF4 chip in my current system is too hot for passive cooling. Isn't the GeForce 6100 about the same thing with integrated graphics? Wouldn't that run even hotter?

As for the HD, that was one of the drives I was thinking about. The others were various WD's (I am kind of scared of Samsung because of the questionable reliability reports from members of this site.)

jaganath wrote:AFAIAA the 2800 and 3000 AM2 Semprons don't have CnQ.

Yeah, it is only 1.6 GHz. After doing a little more research, it seems to depend more on the clock speed than model number (i.e. the S754 Sempron 3000 has c'n'q, but the AM2 3000 doesn't).

Thanks for the tip, m8. I guess I'll go with a 3200 then.


As for the NSK2400 naysayers, I'm not sitting this on top of a desk, but rather on a shelf that pulls out. Right now, we have a mini tower and we had to remove the second shelf and jam the printer on the bottom sideways. It's kind of hard to explain, but trust me when I say that wide and deep are okay, but height is not.

Shelf mount sounds fine. Wasn't sure if you were going to set it on top of the desk or not.

nvidia 6100 and 6150 are not the nf4 chipset. They run quite cool and can do it easily passive. These are good chipsets. I recomend the Biostar tforce boards. The ati chipsets are good too. The via integrated graphics do not support windows vista but are otherwise fine.

jackylman wrote:The reason I'm going with AM2 is that I'd rather invest in DDR2 and a CPU socket that has a chance of being upgradeable to K8L 65nm in case it's ever needed in the future.

The "socket" is upgradeable to a K8L? On an AM2 mobo you're gonna buy now? You're kidding, right?

Felger Carbon wrote:

jackylman wrote:The reason I'm going with AM2 is that I'd rather invest in DDR2 and a CPU socket that has a chance of being upgradeable to K8L 65nm in case it's ever needed in the future.

The "socket" is upgradeable to a K8L? On an AM2 mobo you're gonna buy now? You're kidding, right?

That was my understanding. AM3 chips will be backwards compatible with AM2 boards. I could've sworn I read that somewhere.

Felger Carbon wrote:

jackylman wrote:The reason I'm going with AM2 is that I'd rather invest in DDR2 and a CPU socket that has a chance of being upgradeable to K8L 65nm in case it's ever needed in the future.

The "socket" is upgradeable to a K8L? On an AM2 mobo you're gonna buy now? You're kidding, right?

I could probably dig up 50 or more links for you to read but I'll just quote wiki on this one...

Wikipedia wrote:AMD has announced that Socket AM3 processors will be able to run on Socket AM2 motherboards, but not vice-versa (ie: a Socket AM2 chip cannot run on a Socket AM3 motherboard). This is because AM3 processors will have a new memory controller supporting both DDR2 and DDR3 RAM on them, allowing backwards compatibility with AM2 motherboards, but since AM2 processors lack the new memory controller, they will not work on AM3 motherboards.

jackylman wrote: The reason I'm going with AM2 is that I'd rather invest in DDR2 and a CPU socket that has a chance of being upgradeable to K8L 65nm in case it's ever needed in the future.

Well, just having a compatible socket won't help you. You need a compatible motherboard, something that's impossible to figure out right now. AMD says that it will work, but that doesn't mean that all the mobo manufacturers have done everything right so that the upcoming AM3 CPU's will work with all of the current AM2 mobos. IIRC, there were some 939 mobos that didn't work with the X2's when they showed up, even though it was the same socket, and it was not just a BIOS issue in the worst cases.

But if you really want to give it a chance I'd say go for AMD's new partner: ATI. Perhaps one of these would be a good choice?

And yes, ATI runs cooler than nVidia. Maybe the nVidia northbridge can be cooled passively even though it runs hot, but there's also a separate southbridge chip on the 6100 boards which also runs hot, but doesn't always have a heatsink. It's not easy to mount a heatsink on them either, since they're often placed close to the expansion slots (check post 3).

Thanks dhanson and Mats.

The MSI K9AGM looks awesome, but it's not for sale right now in the U.S.

Ok, so I broke down and went with a GeForce 6100 AM2. I hope it runs as cool as some of you have said.

CPU: Sempron 3200 $67 shipped
HD: WD1600JS 160GB SATA2 $61 shipped
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-M51GM-S2G GeForce 6100/430 $84 shipped
RAM: G.SKILL 1GB DDR2 667 $82 shipped
Case: Antec NSK2400 $90 shipped
DVD: NEC 4570 $39 shipped

- I guess that's not bad for $383, anyone see anything I should change?

- I'm not ordering the parts until after Labor Day, so maybe the MSI K9AGM will pop up by then.

You may have thought of this already but I was advised to buy my RAM as a matched pair rather than a single stick for my AM2 build - Apparently this will improve performance.

Oh and thanks for bringing up the matter of CnQ on Semprons - I would have got a 3000 were it not for this thread!

pixel_pimp wrote:Oh and thanks for bringing up the matter of CnQ on Semprons - I would have got a 3000 were it not for this thread!

You can thank jaganath. I agree that it is confusing when the S754 3000+ supports C'n'Q, but the AM2 version doesn't. Apparently, AMD thought they could attach higher model numbers to equivalently clocked/cached AM2 models over their S754 counterparts. I guess that's marketing for you...

As for the memory, I was trying to leave room for expansion to 4GB, but I can't imagine a scenario where that would be necessary, even if I keep this machine around for 5 years (I don't plan on upgrading to Vista unless software compatibility forces me to). So I'll go with a 2x512 kit and take advantage of dual-channel. For about $8 more, I can get an A-Data kit (which is on Gigabyte's approved list). Perhaps when DDR2 is a bit cheaper, I'll make the move to 2GB.

Well, good luck with your build and thanks for the memory tip which made me reconsider my plan.

I still haven't seen any reason to get dual channel RAM for either C2 or A64F, can someone give me a link to some useful reading? I know what memory bandwidth is, but higher memory bandwidth doesn't equal better performance (except in memory benchmarks).

If I'd build a system today I'd only consider 1 GB memory sticks, either one or two. 2 x 512 MB is a step backwards IMO. Dual channel is a good thing, but it's not worth buying 2 x 512 MB and later on getting 2 x 1024 MB instead, that's just a waste of money. I'd rather be "bandwidth crippled" in a couple of months and then getting another stick.

Mats wrote:it's not worth buying 2 x 512 MB and later on getting 2 x 1024 MB instead, that's just a waste of money. I'd rather be "bandwidth crippled" in a couple of months and then getting another stick.

Only the case if you are limited to 2 slots surely? Otherwise you could just buy another 2 x 512.

I don't pretend to understand the mechanics but perhaps someone can expand on the matter. I just saw it as a matter of 'if I can get a boost, however small, for no extra cost then there's no reason not to'.

Mats wrote:Dual channel is a good thing, but it's not worth buying 2 x 512 MB and later on getting 2 x 1024 MB instead, that's just a waste of money.

RAM happens to be expensive right now because of the back to school season (at least DDR2). Getting 1GB now and 2GB later when it's cheaper might actually make sense. I can use the stuff together and have 3 GB, right? Or I can just get another GB.

Can you envision a scenario when I might need more than 2GB of RAM for an office machine or even if I eventually use it for an HTPC? Like I said, I might upgrade to dual-core once 65nm K8L comes out, but I plan to stay with Windows XP.

jackylman wrote:Can you envision a scenario when I might need more than 2GB of RAM for an office machine or even if I eventually use it for an HTPC? Like I said, I might upgrade to dual-core once 65nm K8L comes out, but I plan to stay with Windows XP.

Even 2 GB seems overkill for those tasks but it's always nice to have headroom, I guess.

Hi, if you’re not really on a tight budget how about the Athlon 62 3200? It's only $15 (83 vs 68 ) on newegg at the moment for which you get 2GHz/512KB cache vs 1.8GHz/128KB cache and definite support for Cool n Quiet. Guess it may be hotter but I found a s939 A64 3200 could be cooled by the retail cooler (simple aluminum thing) with it's 70mm fan running ~1600rpm (12v ~ 2800rpm), overclocked 2.4GHz (from 2GHz) and folding (for SPCR) all night. Temp was ~50°C, don't see why the AM2 version shouldn't be as good or better.
For the RAM most boards have 4 slots and best filled in pairs as can run dual channel that improves performance. A few % (<10) in general use but in case of integrated graphics significantly more as the graphics needs to use the memory band-width as well as the CPU. Never found any figures (ask me in week and I'll have tested for myself ) but I suspect that 50% in certain case would be possible.
You certainly could buy 2x256 / 2x512 to start with and add more later although the memory timings can need to be eased up to support 4 dimms. Although this applies more to overclockers / tweakers who push everything to the limit, probably fine for most people though.
Hope this helps, Seb

Thanks SebRad. I had thought of that but I was trying to cheap out on the processor and also keep it as cool as possible. The extra cache woulds draw some more power and won't be necessary for the tasks my mom does. I can always use CrystalCPUID to make up the clock difference (and then some) when under load.

Truth be told, I'm a little pissed at AMD for not having C'n'Q support on low-end Semprons and having the 1.1V lock on newer processors. I think I'm going to spec out a C2D E6300 system based on the new AsRock 945G mATX board. I'll end up spending $100 more now, but I probably won't have to upgrade for several years and my mom can have dual-core creamy smoothness now.

Truth be told, I'm a little pissed at AMD for not having C'n'Q support on low-end Semprons and having the 1.1V lock on newer processors.

Non-CnQ S754 low-end Semprons do not have the 1.1V lock (see QuietOC's posts), whereas CnQ E6-stepping Semprons do; so the lack of CnQ is actually a blessing in disguise. It's not clear if the same applies for AM2.

I'm going to spec out a C2D E6300 system based on the new AsRock 945G mATX board. I'll end up spending $100 more now, but I probably won't have to upgrade for several years and my mom can have dual-core creamy smoothness now.

AM2 is equally capable of offering "dual-core creamy smoothness" and a smooth upgrade path; if you're going to blow your budget at least do it for the right reasons.

I guess I'll stick with AM2. Looking at the price list for AM2 processors, the Semprons don't have as much bang for the buck compared to the Athlons. So, I'll go with the Athlon 3500+ for $90 and a Tforce6100 (unless the MSI K9AGM appears at vendors in the next two days).

Thanks for the help, folks. I'll keep you posted.

Remember that there are situations when C'n'Q is not really important. One situation could be with a Sempron. If you pick the chepest (slowest) one without C'n'Q I don't think you'll really miss it. Here's one example, showing what the power saving function does with a low power CPU. I know it's a rare dual core CPU, but I think that a 1.6 GHz single core Sempron should be lower than that. Here's another review, a Sempron 3000+, 1.8 GHz, revision E3 and rated for 62 W. With C'n'Q disabled it idles at 9.3 W.
Many SPCR forum members would never buy a Sempron without C'n'Q, and I used to be one of them.

Mobo: MSI K9NU Neo (ULIM1697 chipset, compact ATX) All the features I want and then some. The chipset is passively cooled with a small heatsink, but it is apparently okay unless you raise the chipset voltage and/or OC. If it gets too hot, I'll get a Zalman NB cooler.

Case: Antec NSK4400, Going with a mini-tower now because the 2400 is too big. The MSI K9NU is a small ATX board, so hopefully mounting won't be too frustrating.

CPU: Athlon 3500+ Orleans, yep

Video card: Radeon X300SE, already own, passively cooled, buying new video card w/DVI and Avivo for current system

CD/DVD: NEC 3550A or 4570 (haven't decided yet)

Memory: A 1GB DDR2-667 stick, may add another later if it ever proves insufficient

HD: WD1600JS, will suspend or soft mount on foam

I think this is it. I'll order the parts later today unless anyone has any objections. I'm going to try the Tri-Cool and AMD stock cooler/fan first and see how loud it is. I may get a Yate Loon or two and aftermarket cooler if necessary.

Ok, so I built the system. I haven't had time to run it through a full series of tests, but I'd like to give my initial impressions.

I'll start with the NSK4400. It wasn't bad to work in at all, especially for a minitower. The PSU (SU-380) is very quiet and the cables are of adequate length, even for the K9NU's 24-pin power which is right above the PCI-e slot. Unfortunately, the panels are flimsy and prone to vibration since they're not screwed on. The latches on the top panel kept bending and I couldn't get it on right without bending them back. The Tri-Cool is okay at 'Low', but should probably be replaced with a better fan. Overall, I wouldn't recommend this case unless a minitower is needed and the hard disk is suspended. The SLK 3000B is a more solid and modular case if you have the space.

MSI K9NU Neo-V (ULI M1697 chipset)- This board worked perfectly for me because it was a cheap, no frills, feature-laden mobo. The chipset is passively cooled with a fairly small heatsink. It gets pretty warm, but not finger-scorching like the NF4. Booted on first try with GeIL RAM (You can use 1.8V RAM for this board) and I updated to the latest BIOS. This board has a nice SmartFan control with up to 5 degree tolerance and control for 2-8 fan steppings. It also allows CPU voltages from 1.2V to 1.4V and RAM voltage from 1.8V to 2.05V. (Edit: Forgot to mention that the board has two fan headers which support SpeedFan.)

Athlon 3500+ Orleans - No, it's not dual-core, but I don't see the need to go dual-core for everyday computing. Since this was a budget build and it didn't demand complete silence, I just used the stock cooler/fan but replaced the thermal paste with AS5. Last night, I played with CrystalCPUID and CPU-Z and got this baby down to 0.9V @ 1GHz and 1.275V @ 2.2GHZ. At idle with the SmartFan at 25%, the CPU temp hovers between 28C and 31C. At stock voltage and clock speed, the temp rises to 45C. C'n'Q idle puts it at about 35C. If anyone's interested, I'll do Prime95 testing to see the lowest voltage it can use to maintain full speed.

WD 2500KS (Caviar SE16) Mfd. Aug '06 - Very quiet at idle with a smooth noise profile. The seeking sound is fairly quiet, but it sounds like paper ripping. I'd actually prefer it to be sharper, like my old 800JB. I didn't hear any high-pitched whine that some complain of on WD's. Vibration is horrible, even with rubber grommets, so I suspended it with elastic and that did the trick. I definitely recommend this drive as long as it's decoupled from the chassis.

I hope this was helpful. If anyone is interested in more information, please let me know.

If anyone's interested, I'll do Prime95 testing to see the lowest voltage it can use to maintain full speed.

Please do, maybe if you clock it down to 2GHz it can run on 1.1V? Experience with other AM2 chips indicates this is possible.

2 hours of Prime95 testing at 1.1V and 2GHZ reveals no errors. CPU-Z showed the voltage fluctuating between 1.088V and 1.128V

During the test, I set the fan to run at 50% and the CPU fluctuated between 35-37C.

Any other tests I should do?