Computer stolen; I'm building again, critiques please?

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:04 pm

I spent two months researching, ordering, building, tweaking, ordering, and building more until I had a great machine. Skip forward a few months and a couple of crack-happy burglars now have that machine. (Side note: my roommate and I caught them after shooting up their car and chasing them, but my stuff was already gone... they had burglarized us 3 times already... long story).

So, I've read as much as I can comprehend on SPCR, and I have come up with a system backbone. Please critique it. If the insurance money comes through then I'm going to want to go much higher end rather than lower, as long as I stay away from water cooling and a non-mid tower case.

I want this thing to be great and greatly silent, even if that means a few more bucks.

BASICS:
Athlon64X2 4800+
ASUS A8 32 SLI Deluxe 939 mobo
Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000KS HDD
2GB RAM (prob OCZ)
DVD-writer and a DVD-ROM
Antec P180b enclosure
Seasonic S12-330 PS
56K modem with caller ID

MULTIMEDIA:
23" Anodized Aluminum Apple Cinema HD LCD
ATI All In Wonder X1800 XL / 256MB GDDR3 PCI-Express
Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum PCI Sound Card

COOLERS:
Scythe Ninja CPU cooler + 120 Nexus fan
Smart Drive HDD Enclosure
Zalman ZM-NB47J for the Northbridge chipset on the mobo

PERIPHS:
Nice 5.1 speaker system (possibly Bose)
Bluetooth dongle
HP4800 ScanJet
Bluetooth keyboard/mouse (if I can find an ergonomic one)

+++++++++

Please let loose with critiques. You won't hurt my feelings

Some questions I have right off the bat are:
*What is this Crossfire technology on vid cards and do I need to look for it?
*My vid card is PCIX, but should I get an SLI one? I really don't even know what that means.
*What about insulating foam for the sides of the cases?
*If water cooling is THAT worth it, I would consider it.

badbadtz560 · Post by **badbadtz560** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:23 pm

you might want a vf900 or vf700 on that grahpics card.. I think it'll be really loud w/o an aftermarket heatsink.

w/ ati's crossfire, you can have one pci-express and the second one would need to be a crossfire. Basically, they work together to boost graphics processing performance... since it's basically dual processors for graphics. I'm only 80% sure though, so someone plz correct me if i'm wrong. You can read all about it on ati's website, but I dont' think you need to worry about crossfire when u have such a nice card as it is.

You could consider the p150 as another option... and if youwant to save money, antec has B-stock(refurbished). Silentpcreview rated the antec neo430watt pretty highly for sound performance... and the p150 is an awesome case that happens to come w/ that PSU.

disphenoidal · Post by **disphenoidal** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:39 pm

Or maybe consider an nvidia card, like a 7800 series? I think they run cooler than comparable ati ones. SLI and Crossfire are nvidia and ati's respective ways of using 2 graphics cards. If you ask me, they both serve to double the power consumption and cost for marginal performance improvement. Especially if you have a good card already, as badbadtz mentioned. He's right about an aftermarket heatsink too, you'll probably want one on any powerful card. PCI-E refers to the actual slots used by the graphics card.

Supposedly the Seasonic S12-380 is slightly quieter than the 330.

Also, have you thought about socket AM2 or intel core 2? They might have more upgrading potential than 939.

badbadtz560 · Post by **badbadtz560** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:57 pm

I forgot to mention that the p150 already comes w/ some kind of side panel absorption.

I dont' think water cooling is worth it at all.

I definately agree w/ trying out core2duo (conroe) or an athlon64 x2. If you're only going to do gaming or one intensive app at a time, I dont' think they'll help right now; however, they say taht future games and apps will be able to utilize the dual core processing so that it can make a difference.

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:42 pm

Great responses. Thanks.

*I forgot to mention the heatsink for the vidcard. Definitely a must. Video Card... add: Zalman VF900 to cool the vidcard.

*Crossfire's out. I'm getting a single nice card.

*Power Supply... substitute: S12-380 for the S12-330

*Mobo... now this is why I read SPCR. I'm definitely going with the AM2 with an X2 CPU on it. Thank y'all for helping me avoid getting another 939. Sweet.

As for the case, money's not a huge issue there, and I like the looks of the P180b over the 150. Is it going to be louder? What if I add more dampening materials?

Revised Setup... please continue to critique it. Y'all are a great help.

BASICS:
-AMD Athlon 64X2 4600+ 2.40GHz Socket AM2
-Asus M2N32-SLI Deluxe Wireless Edition NVIDIA Socket AM2
-Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000KS HDD
-2GB DDR2 RAM (prob OCZ)
-DVD-writer and a DVD-ROM
-Antec P180b enclosure
-Seasonic S12-380 PS
-56K modem with caller ID

MULTIMEDIA:
-23" Anodized Aluminum Apple Cinema HD LCD
-ATI All In Wonder X1800 XL / 256MB GDDR3 PCI-Express
-Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum PCI Sound Card

COOLERS:
-Scythe Ninja CPU cooler + 120 Nexus fan
-Smart Drive HDD Enclosure
-Zalman ZM-NB47J for the Northbridge chipset on the mobo
-Zalman VF900 to cool the VGA

PERIPHS:
-Nice 5.1 speaker system (possibly Bose)
-Bluetooth dongle
-HP4800 ScanJet
-Bluetooth keyboard/mouse (if I can find an ergonomic one)

RPost · Post by **RPost** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:24 pm

Since you've decided not to go with two video cards this point is slightly irrelevant, but you should pay close attention to what mobo you're getting. One that is labelled 'sli' can't run crossfire and vice versa.

In regard to video cards, since you're getting the VF900 I would consider an x1900xt 256mb over the x1800xl. They're comparable in price (in Australia anyway) and I'm pretty sure the x19 would flatten the x18. Although you might want to keep the 380w if you do this.
Also, if you want the card for hi-res gaming you'll need 512mb of graphics ram (over one or two cards).

jaQa · Post by **jaQa** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:20 am

Hi,

23" Anodized Aluminum Apple Cinema HD LCD

that's a huge LCD with high native resolution, investing in a better video card and a seperate TV Card would make sense.

Zalman ZM-NB47J for the Northbridge chipset on the mobo

You probably don't need that, just choose a motherboard with passive heatsinks and you're fine.

Bluetooth keyboard/mouse (if I can find an ergonomic one)

If you play 3D FPS games (shooters) don't do that, i got a wireless mouse once and never ever again - the lag makes it almost impossible to play multiplayer FPS games decently.
I like Logitech mice - expect the wireless one i was never disappointed with them. But technically there's isn't much difference, those X000 DPI mice are just marketing hype. I play fast shooters with a older Logitech 800 DPI mouse, even this is more precision than one ever needs.
I steer the mouse only with my fingertips (most precision), that's why i prefer smaller (un)ergonomic mice (for left and right handers). But that's all personal preference.

Seasonic 380W is a good choice, own it myself, it's a reliabe, quality power supply - and real 380W is enough if you don't go with 2 video cards.

Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum

That's much $ for a sound card, are you going to produce music on your PC? For normal gaming/multimedia use I don't think it's worth it.

-56K modem with caller ID

You build yourself such a machine and still use a 56K modem?

Christian

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:26 am

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000KS HDD

I've been out of the loop, but I'm a fan of the raptor. I imagine it's still faster.

Seasonic S12-330 PS

This is the PSU I use. With as much stuff as you have, does anyone else think he should look at the next lvl up? I just know fancy Graphics cards use a lot of power. Most people don't need >330, but you've got a high end system.

logitech has good mice. I used the first lazer mouse they released a while back in a system I built - it was great and I imagine they've gotten better. Is bluetooth better somehow?

I'm out of the loop, but a year ago that's what I would have recommended.

Keep the modem for those annoying times your highspeed ISP is down and you need internet access.

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:00 am

Thanks again for the great responses. I've made a few more changes based on what y'all have said.

*RPost - the X1900 it is. Thanks for guiding me on that. ATI has a sale too.
*jaQa - I think my vidcard is fine as I ran it on the stolen machine with the 23", and I kind of like the ASUS mobo unless you have a specific other rec. I hate wireless mice too, but I thought bluetooth might eliminate the lag. And, yes, I want that sound card.
*Trip - Based on SPCR's latest reviews, I think I'm going to go Caviar, but you still might be right. Mike himself recommended that low of a wattage (you know how he is about low wattages).

Revised System:

BASICS:
-AMD Athlon 64X2 4600+ 2.40GHz Socket AM2
-Asus M2N32-SLI Deluxe Wireless Edition NVIDIA Socket AM2
-Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000KS HDD
-2GB DDR2 RAM (prob OCZ)
-DVD-writer and a DVD-ROM
-Antec P180b enclosure
-Seasonic S12-380 PS
-56K modem with caller ID

MULTIMEDIA:
-23" Anodized Aluminum Apple Cinema HD LCD
-ATI All-in-Wonder X1900 256MB PCI ExpressÂ®
-Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum PCI Sound Card

COOLERS:
-Scythe Ninja CPU cooler + 120 Nexus fan
-Smart Drive HDD Enclosure
-Zalman ZM-NB47J for the Northbridge chipset on the mobo
-Zalman VF900 to cool the VGA

PERIPHS:
-Nice 5.1 speaker system (possibly Bose)
-Bluetooth dongle
-HP4800 ScanJet
-Bluetooth keyboard/mouse (if I can find an ergonomic one)

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:29 am

In regard to video cards, since you're getting the VF900 I would consider an x1900xt 256mb over the x1800xl.

Keep in mind that the X1900XT puts out roughly twice as much heat as the X1800XL under load, 100W+. You may be able to cool that quietly with a VF900, I don't know. Someone in the VGA forum will be able to help with that.

jb_ · Post by **jb_** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:32 am

Surprised nobody's mentioned these:

- A cable lock for the computer

- A Kensington lock for the Apple display

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:25 am

@jaganath - thanks for the heads up. i'll post that in the vga forum.

@jb_ - definitely! how could i forget that. fortunately, my display will be mounted on an ergotron wall arm eliminating the need for a cable.

Question:

1. Do I need any more fans in this case to keep it sufficiently cool? Obviously I do not want to add more fans, but if I really NEED them, then I'll put them on.

If I do need additional fans, what do y'all recommend?

2. Also, I might put this PC inside a piece of furniture, and I'd probably like to put a fan outside the case but inside the furniture to keep that compartment in the furniture cool. What type of fan do y'all recommend for that and how do you recommend I power it?

3. Please continue to critique my setup as well. Y'all are very helpful.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:57 pm

Rusty075 built a nice pc in a desk. I'll see if i can find it.

found it

Your PSU should exhaust air and one other case fan should exhaust air.

You'll also want a fan blowing on your HDD; I have the same case as you. I want to say the case comes with a fan, but I took mine out and replaced it.

2 undervolted fans are quieter than 1 full volted fan, but you've got to have a place to put them. Also, usually if you just take the 1 fan and undervolt it nearly as low as it can go, that will be plenty of air.

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:59 pm

Do y'all recommend replacing the stock P180 case fan? If so, with what(s)?

Do I need to add another fan inside the case just to blow on the HDD?

What about a fan that is just going to mount inside my desk but outside the case?

Critique the rest of the system as much as you like. I love it.

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:59 pm

Antec Tri-Cools are decently quiet when set on low, and might be fine if the computer is inside furniture. But, if you want something quieter, get a Nexus fans (somewhat expensive) or a Yate Loon/Papst fan and undervolt to 5-7V (cheaper but more complicated solution). Those will be quieter than the Tri-Cools that come with the case. Since your PSU already has a fan, I don't think you need one in the lower drive bay.

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:57 pm

The Antec 180 cooling system is listed as follows:

Cooling System:
- 1 rear (standard) 120mm TriCoolâ„¢ Fan with 3-speed switch control
- 1 top (standard) 120mm TriCoolâ„¢ Fan
- 1 lower chamber (standard) 120mm TriCoolâ„¢ Fan
- 1 front (optional) 120mm fan
- 1 middle (optional) 120mm fan to cool graphics cards

A) Should I replace the 3 standard TriCools with Nexus120s?
B) Should I opt in for the front and middle 120s? If so, should I just not get the Antecs and get the Nexus versions?

This will only be $100 more max, so I don't mind doing it if it's going to help. But, 5 120mm fans running seems like that's bound to add up.

What do y'all think?

(Add anything else you like as well.)

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:03 pm

I replaced all three TriCools with Nexus fans, and then undervolted them.

The TriCools on low were pretty loud (I'd guess around 25 dB), especially the 38mm one in the lower chamber, which was loud by itself, but made louder by resonance in the lower chamber.

But I'm curious about one thing: if it's someone else's dime, why not get a C2D?

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:40 pm

@cmthomson: OK, then I'm going to order three Nexus 120s to replace the Antec fans. The Antec site says the lower chamber has a 120mm fan.

Why did you have a 38mm fan?

Also, do you think I need front and/or middle optional fans?

Big question here: how do I undervolt a fan?

C2D: I like Athlon. Why should I get a C2D?

Also, do you like your Condor VGA cooler? I had the Zalman on my last (stolen) computer, and it seemed nice, but I"m open to suggestions. Does your Condor not hit your Scythe Ninja?

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:16 pm

In the old P180, the two top TriCools were 120x25mm and the bottom (PS) was 120x38mm. I vaguely recall that later models used 120x25 for all three, so this may not be an issue for you.

No, I don't think you'll need intake fans. I use four fans because I separate the CPU, MB, video and PS/HD airstreams with ducts and baffles so I can run the fans at extremely low speeds. I have one fan in the bottom of the P180 cooling the hard disks and the power supply, one strapped to the CPU heat sink (a Ninja) ducted out the back, one in the top case hole cooling the DRAM and VRM, and one lodged in the middle with some ducting cooling the video and TV cards and south bridge.

Undervolting: well there are three main ways. Most common is a controller such as the fanmate. Second option is inline resistors such as AcoustiFan. Third and becoming more common is taking advantage of fan voltage control built into more recent motherboards.

I have an ASUS P5W DH which has five fan headers, all controllable from software (I use SpeedFan, others use the BIOS). Other motherboards in this class have similar capability.

Core 2 Duo is faster than Athlon at similar power consumption. Intel has leapfrogged AMD with this family. Of course it's pricey and hard to get, which is why I mentioned "someone else's dime". If you do a lot of A/V transcoding, C2D runs circles around Athlon.

I'm quite happy with the Condor. It's huge of course, and I got the reverse wing model so it wouldn't bump into the Ninja (the two of them take up pretty much all of the case). With just the faintest of breezes blowing past each of them (Nexus at < 600 RPM) the CPU stays below 70 at load, and the GPU stays under 110 (which is high, but except when testing with ATITool, I never load it that heavily).

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:10 pm

@cmthomson - thanks to you, i just spent about 3 hours "rebuilding" my system... but i think this is it. and, again, huge save steering me to C2D over AMD. i liked AMD, but they never called anymore anyway.

So here's the new system. Depending on insurance, I'll go with the C2DExtreme or the C2D E6700. I'll post the highest end here just for the heck of it.

HIGHEST END SYSTEM:
Intel D975XBXLKR Intel Socket 775 ATX Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Extreme X6800 2.93GHz
ATI X1900 XTX 512MB PCIe Video Card

Sound Card
Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum

HDD
Western Digital / Caviar SE 16 / 320GB

DVDs
AOpen DUW1616L PRO
AOpen /52x32x52x CD-RW/16x DVD-ROM

Enclosures
Antec P180b Case
SmartDrive HDD Enclosure

Coolers
SCNJ-1000-PLUS
4 Nexus 120mm fans
Zalman ZF900CU
Zalman ZM-NB47J (if necessary)

Display
Apple 23" Cinema HD Display

Dampening
Acoustipack Deluxe

Power
Seasonic S12-430

Modem
FM56-PX Modem with CallerID

Peripherals
HP 4890 ScanJet
MS Natural Ergo Keyboard 4000
Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 THX

SLIGHTLY LOWER:
Replace above mobo+CPU+vid with:

Gigabyte 945GM-S2 Intel Socket 775 MicroATX Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo E6700 2.67GHz
ATI Radeon X1900 XT

What do y'all think?

Just for y'all's curiousity, I'm looking at 4099.65 for the high end (this includes the Apple 23" LCD) or 3239.64 for the step down (still with the display). The step down system without the display, keyboard, speakers, and scanner is 1904.72 (high end = 2764.93).

RPost · Post by **RPost** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:18 pm

Damn man... That high end system is vicious.
The x1900xtx is soon to be replaced by the x1950xtx though, which runs a bit cooler and a bit faster, it'll be worth checking the prices where you're at because ati are offering a pretty good deal (compared to what they were charging for the x1900xtx).

There also may be a better motherboard choice. Have a look at this article if you haven't already http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=4

And, finally, an e6600 is probably a better deal than the e6700 on the lower system. With a good board you can get a stable and high overclock with the 6600 and its a lot cheaper.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:52 pm

Since your PSU already has a fan, I don't think you need one in the lower drive bay.

His PSU uses a 120mm fan. I put my HDD in one of the top slots not the bottom, but I needed a fan up there. My HDD would hit 43' C without a fan. Any tiny bit of air will cool your HDD a good bit.

Gigabyte 945GM-S2 Intel Socket 775 MicroATX Motherboard

Gigabyte isn't so hot in the past. I like Intel and DFI boards. Asus used to be really good, but I suspect DFI is better now. Your Motherboard is the foundation of your system; You want something solid and stable.

Why the switch to Intel over AMD btw?

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:17 am

@Rpost: I'll look at the latest ATI card when it comes time to buy.

On the mobo, the problem is that I'm probably going to buy from TigerDirect, and the mobo/CPU combos decrease the price by 100s of dollars. It's hard to ignore that. QUESTION: What mobos should I lean toward and which ones should I lean away from? (I know very little about mobos.)

For the CPU, why not just E6700 and overclock it too? Also, I have never overclocked. Is it dangerous/difficult? I know alot about computers and could probably handle it, but I can't have this computer burning up on me. Insurance only pays once.

@Trip: I haven't seen this case in person yet. Do I need another Nexus120 to cool the HDD by itself or is four fans sufficient? (1 on the CPU and 3 to replace the stock P180 120s)

Another mobo critique... I'll look into it.

Intel v. AMD? Well, I read a bunch of articles, and it appears that C2D is blowing AMD out of the water, and I care more about speed than brand loyalty. This computer is not my girlfriend... it's my ho.

RPost · Post by **RPost** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:57 am

silentsouth wrote:QUESTION: What mobos should I lean toward and which ones should I lean away from? (I know very little about mobos.)

It depends which hardware you're looking to run, and what you intend to do with it. Then there's ease of use and reliability to consider. If you want an easy and reliable Core2 overclock then checkout the Gigabyte DQ6 and the Asus P5W DH Deluxe. Both of these are considered reliable and more stable for overclocks than the 'Badaxe' (d975xbx). They're also feature packed (the Asus comes with a remote among other things), support for fanspeed control is one of the more important ones for the silent pc.
If you want my recommendation, wait until my P5W arrives, I'll tell you then.

silentsouth wrote:For the CPU, why not just E6700 and overclock it too? Also, I have never overclocked. Is it dangerous/difficult? I know alot about computers and could probably handle it, but I can't have this computer burning up on me. Insurance only pays once.

There was some talk that the e6600 overclocks better than than the e6700, but if you're not doing an agressive OC, and you're willing to spend the money, I'd say go for it. The x6800 would be an overclocking machine, if you even felt the need to overclock it. It's not diffcult to do a basic overclock, and on the motherboards listed above, and with the Ninja-plus, you should be able to get a very stable 40% at least. The benefits are great for very little risk. Find some tutorials to follow, there should be plenty.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:14 am

RPost wrote:
silentsouth wrote:QUESTION: What mobos should I lean toward and which ones should I lean away from? (I know very little about mobos.)
It depends which hardware you're looking to run, and what you intend to do with it. Then there's ease of use and reliability to consider. If you want an easy and reliable Core2 overclock then checkout the Gigabyte DQ6 and the Asus P5W DH Deluxe. Both of these are considered reliable and more stable for overclocks than the 'Badaxe' (d975xbx). They're also feature packed (the Asus comes with a remote among other things), support for fanspeed control is one of the more important ones for the silent pc.
If you want my recommendation, wait until my P5W arrives, I'll tell you then.

I can tell you now, since I've used both boards.

I was very disappointed with the DQ6. The 965P north bridge doesn't let you control the DRAM timings, and the BIOS only allows you to apply voltage increases above stock to the various parts, rather than using absolute voltages. [Also the 965P doesn't support Crossfire if you care about that.] I ended up selling the board.

The P5W DH by contrast uses the 975X north bridge, and allows full control over all voltages and speeds in addition to having a bunch of other features. [It also has Crossfire if you care about that.] It does have some idiosyncracies: the NB is overclocked by default (controlled by Hyper Path 3), the heat sinks need attention to function effectively, and the temperature sensor support is a bit funky.

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:23 am

It looks like a pretty good system. I'd only get 3 Nexus fans though. With one on the CPU, one for the front intake (to cool the HDDs), and one for exhaust, I think that's enough. I doubt you'll need two fans (top and rear) to cool the system.

I also prefer ASUS boards (P5W) over Intel for overclocking and performance, but Intel's should still be solid and reliable.

Also, are those AOpen drives quiet? I haven't heard much about those. I know NEC, BenQ, and some ASUS drives are considered 'quiet'.

Also, you forgot to list the RAM in the new setup. The ones you listed in the original post is fine, just make sure you don't forget to order it or include it in your expected price.

silentsouth · Post by **silentsouth** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:20 am

Great... great... great.

Thanks for all the help.

I'm going to look into the Asus P5WDH Deluxe... I need that remote.

@stromgald: thanks for reminding me about the RAM... and jacking my price up another $170 (ha).

Quiet DVD drives? That just seems strange to me. I mean, if they're spinning, they're spinning. Surely there's not that big of a difference. I'll pick one y'all recommend if it matters (DVDr and a separate DVD-ROM/CDRW).

More on mobos:

What about the Asus P5N32-SLI SE Deluxe?

nici · Post by **nici** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:17 pm

Well there's no such thing as "silent ODD", but the quality of the noise can be very different between different models. I like my Samsung because it automatically runs very slow when inserting an audio cd, and it doesnt spin up the moment i enter "my computer". NEC(3250) and LG(4163) run full speed with audio CDs, nero drive speed doesn't work and they spin up if i so much as look the my computer icon..

Samsung also has some affordable SATA drives, about 50-60â‚¬ here compared to 40-50â‚¬ for PATA. Plextor drives are 100â‚¬+ for sata.

Never owned one, but as i have understood it Pioneer are the most quiet, with better damping in the retail models.That's a very big IIRC. They are expensive and hard to get though.