AM2 X2 based HTPC for Standard Definition material ?

[ziphnor]

Hi,

I promised my parents to construct an HTPC for them to watch SD DVB-S and DVB-T(they wont get HD for a *loooong* while, because they only have the smallest satellite package, and just like me they are not buying HD-DVD/BR due to DRM concerns)

Silence is very important, while power consumption is also a factor(but not desperatly so). Being able to run MediaPortal (MCE like app) without stutter is of critical concern, so there needs to be some performance headroom, i might want to try to add some ffdshow filtering etc, and MP can in general be a bit of a resource hog.

I was originally contemplating a Conroe based solution, but the choice of motherboards with a decent IGP is pretty much non-existant(the Nvidia 6150 on the other hand can handle all the nice stuff as long as its SD). I dont trust the X3000 due Intel bad reputation with IGPs. Judging from the tests ive seen it seems that an onboard video card has significantly less power consumption so it would be nice to take advantage of this, since HD is not a concern.

This lead me to (tentatively) decide on an AMD X2 based system. The EE X2's are way too expensive, so i was hoping to just undervolt a standard X2.

My suggested setup is this:
CPU: AM2 Athlon X2 4200+ (costs the same as the E6300 here)
RAM: 2x512MB DDR2-800
Motherboard: M2NPV-VM (http://www.asus.com/products4.aspx?l1=3 ... odelmenu=1)
- Has firewire, no chipset fans and DVI-D output.
HD: Western Digital 3200KS, 320GB
Case: Antec NSK2400
CPU cooler: <undecided>
Other(tuners):
FloppyDTV DVB-S (Firewire)
Hauppage Nova-T-500MCE (PCI)

I would like to hear any kind of feedback on this system, but have these questiosn:
1. Suggestion on a heatsink for the CPU? I currently use a Sonic Tower, with a 92mm '9db' case fan in my own HTPC, but such as large HS doesnt fit in the NSK2400 i believe.
2. Any idea on power consumption/undervoltability of the 4200+? Would it be better to just OC and 3800+? The 4600+ could probably fit within the budget(its about +33% over the 4200, and the 4200 is +33% over the 3800+) because the mobo is very cheap, but i was thinking it might be easier to just OC if necessary, i hate paying more for the same, even when using someone elses money
3. Are there any better (and cheap) 6150 based mobos with the same features?
An alternative could be MSI K9NGM2-FID (cost +20%) which has 7.1 audio, but my parents arent planning on surround sound. Its far more important to have some Firewire connectors.
The Abit NF-M2 nView also sounds nice, but i cant find it in denmark.
4. Im still taking arguments for/against a Conroe approach

[justblair]

It seems a bit high specced for standard resoltuions. I run MCE on a 2100xp underclocked and undervolted to 1166mhz. This is pretty much as fast as I need. Though I am going to swap in an underclocked 3000xp eventually, thats cause the samurize status display that I am running through a psone screen is demanding quite a bit of processing power.

Is it going to be doing other stuff you have not mentioned yet?

[ziphnor]

My Athlon64 3000+ HTPC(full speed at 1.1V) sometimes runs into issues when archiving to Xvid while watching video, or recording multiple streams.

I think MCE is a bit less demanding than MP, and i want to err on the safe side. Besides the X2 cpus are very cheap, so there is hardly anything to save by using a smaller CPU, but maybe an 3800+ would be plenty.

I appreciate your feedback, it at least helps convince me that the specs arent way too low

[vitaminc]

Agreed that Intel's HTPC mobo offerings aren't really competitive at the moment given the ~$100 USD price range.

Your system isn't an overkill for HTPC because I just recently tried vista on A64 3200+ AM2, and its chewing up my CPU cycles even when I am not really doing anything.

1. Thermalright XP-120 should fit alright. It's low profile and can be used for passive cooling.
2. You should
3. Biostar 6100 overclocks better, but it has a NB fan, so that's extra $20 for your passive cooler.
4. Conroe system will be worth it. Get a cheap motherboard and add a low end discrete graphics card that can offload mpeg2 decoding.

[Rusty075]

I built an htpc box for someone that used the M2NPV-VM, a single core 3500, and the Hauppauge 500MCE tuner card. Even with the stock igp it will playback 1080p just fine.

I would consider upping your ram from 1 gig to 2 though....it's cheap, and multitasking a couple of recordings and playback in MCE can use a lot of ram.

On this particular board the CPU is perfectly happy running at 1.1v, so I don't know if I would even worry about trying to get an EE chip. Of course, YMMV.

This may sound sacreligious, but I just used the stock cooler. After undervolting, and enabling CnQ and Q-fan, its really very quiet. (below the level of the HDD+ Antec PSU in the NSK2400 that it's housed in) You might want to build it first with the stock cooler and see if an upgrade is even worthwhile.

[ziphnor]

1. Thermalright XP-120 should fit alright. It's low profile and can be used for passive cooling.

Sounds good.

2. You should

Eh?

3. Biostar 6100 overclocks better, but it has a NB fan, so that's extra $20 for your passive cooler.

The 6100 IGP lacks some important video processeing features and is therefore not an option:
http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_support.html

4. Conroe system will be worth it. Get a cheap motherboard and add a low end discrete graphics card that can offload mpeg2 decoding.

But what motherboard? I need micro-ATX for the Antec case, and all the microATX Conroe boards i can find also have a silly GMA 950 onboard. Adding a discrete graphics card to that seems like a waste in regards to power consumption. Anyway, even the cheapest microATX Conroe board costs the same as the 6150 board, and if you add the cost of the seperate video card(even a cheap one) i could upgrade to an 4600+ instead for the same price. And the discrete video wouldnt add anything (they need anyway) that the 6150 hasnt already got.

[ziphnor]

I built an htpc box for someone that used the M2NPV-VM, a single core 3500, and the Hauppauge 500MCE tuner card. Even with the stock igp it will playback 1080p just fine.

It should play 1080p with PureVideo, the 6150 does support HD, its just lacking some advanced features.

I would consider upping your ram from 1 gig to 2 though....it's cheap, and multitasking a couple of recordings and playback in MCE can use a lot of ram.

Thats a good suggestion, will do.

On this particular board the CPU is perfectly happy running at 1.1v, so I don't know if I would even worry about trying to get an EE chip. Of course, YMMV.

Sounds good.

This may sound sacreligious, but I just used the stock cooler. After undervolting, and enabling CnQ and Q-fan, its really very quiet. (below the level of the HDD+ Antec PSU in the NSK2400 that it's housed in) You might want to build it first with the stock cooler and see if an upgrade is even worthwhile.

Depending on the price of the boxed version i might try that, i was planning to change the PSU fan though.

[vitaminc]

My mistakes on the Biostar. But there's only a couple of 6150 IGP out there. Agree that SDTV should be fine on there. But you should probably get 1GB more RAM because IGP shares the system memory with CPU, so it could be somewhat slower with only 1GB.

I personally will go for Conroe E6300, stand alone purevideo or avivo graphics, because I do some simple 3D games. :p

[ziphnor]

I personally will go for Conroe E6300, stand alone purevideo or avivo graphics, because I do some simple 3D games. :p

For my personal HTPC upgrade i will also go with Conroe or Merom, either with an 7600GT with HDMI or some future IGP that can do HD properly. However, right now, and given that only SD is relevant for a long while, the above seems more appropiate.

[autoboy]

I would go for the X2 3800+ over the other higher power chips. It will undervolt better and you will not miss the speed. Is there really any reason your parents need to convert the files to Xvid? Even the slowest single core can handle all your needs except for the conversion. Do your parents have an antenna on thier roof? Most old people do if they have lived there for 20 years or so. They could get hd channels for free.

BTW, i know you are looking for integrated graphics, but i just got a 7300LE and it has been working great on SD and HD content. The only thing it lacks over a 7600gt is inverse telecine on HD content. It is a good stopgap solution until new HDCP cards come out that don't use so much power. If you went Conroe, which i don't recomend yet, this would be a good card for them.

[vitaminc]

I personally will go for Conroe E6300, stand alone purevideo or avivo graphics, because I do some simple 3D games. :p

For my personal HTPC upgrade i will also go with Conroe or Merom, either with an 7600GT with HDMI or some future IGP that can do HD properly. However, right now, and given that only SD is relevant for a long while, the above seems more appropiate.

well that's true, unless HDDVD/BRDVD drives come dowm to within $200 range, I probably won't make the switch yet. But I got some 1080p movie in my HDD, and the picture quality is clearly visible better than DVD. :p

BTW, sleep mode > undervolt, except for your file server.

[mb2]

meh, can't u schedule it to archive stuff to Xvid at 3am or something? as a bonus u get less seek noise while you're there too.
assuming that, then a sempron 2600+ would be a good idea. u say the X2s are cheap but have u seen the price of these? anyway, u can undervolt to 0.something and be far cooler than any X2, whilst still having plenty of spare CPU cycles. since it has a dedicated purpose that won't change until the hardware is relatively obselete i don't see any point in going for anything more expensive.

... and add a low end discrete graphics card that can offload mpeg2 decoding.

since when have modern CPUs had a problem with SD mpeg2 decoding? whats the point?, and what features specifically are u looking for that the 6150 has over the 6100?

[ziphnor]

assuming that, then a sempron 2600+ would be a good idea. u say the X2s are cheap but have u seen the price of these? anyway, u can undervolt to 0.something and be far cooler than any X2, whilst still having plenty of spare CPU cycles.

No, i definetly want a dual-core system, i dont want any 'hiccups'. On my current system (A64 3000+) the video stutters if MediaPortal updates the EPG for example. In general DirectShow playback is very sensitive to other tasks in MP(because DS doesnt really give any thread priority control) and so the extra core will be necessary.

since when have modern CPUs had a problem with SD mpeg2 decoding?

They can handle the decoding, its when you add the tasks of high quality scaling and deinterlacing and various other tricks that you start using alot of CPU power. And if you also want to add ffdshow post processing you might have a problem. Best to offload as much as possible to the GPU.

what features specifically are u looking for that the 6150 has over the 6100?

See http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_support.html.
Its things like better hw scaling, better deinterlacing, bad edit correction and inverse telecine.

[ziphnor]

BTW, sleep mode > undervolt, except for your file server.

Naturally, but sleep mode + undervolt is even better MediaPortal can be set to automatically enter S3 standby after a few minutes of inactivity. However, undervolting the CPU when running at full speed gets you alot of savings.

[ziphnor]

Some of you was talking about RAM being cheap. As far as i can tell 1GB 800Mhz DDRII has a cost just short of an X2 3800+ CPU. It is 800Mhz DDR2 that is needed right?

Amusingly one of the cheapest one available are the OCZ Enchanced Latency, Platinium Edition

[vitaminc]

Some of you was talking about RAM being cheap. As far as i can tell 1GB 800Mhz DDRII has a cost just short of an X2 3800+ CPU. It is 800Mhz DDR2 that is needed right?

Amusingly one of the cheapest one available are the OCZ Enchanced Latency, Platinium Edition

?

1GB DDR2 800 costs around $120, X2 3800+ costs around $150-160. 2GB DDR2 800 costs around $220.

If you don't need to overclock (or even if you overclock), DDR2 667 is better than 800.

[ziphnor]

Well here in Denmark an 3800 is DKK 1100, while the cheapest 1GB DDR2 800Mhz is roughly DKK 1000. (1€ = 7.5DKK, 1$ = 6DKK).

I dont think overclocking is going to be relevant, but why is 667Mhz memory a better choice?

[simbloke]

The Abit NF-M2 nView also sounds nice, but i cant find it in denmark.
4. Im still taking arguments for/against a Conroe approach

According to abit UK the NF-M2 will be in from Asia in a week or so and at retailers by the end of the month. I suspect that it will be the same across Europe.

Sim

[ziphnor]

I went with the Asus mobo and some DDR2-667 memory. I downgraded the memory because i read that 667->800Mhz gives at most 3% increase in performance, and the price difference was quite large.

I read that the Asus mobo used to have some problems, but when i check later comments everybody seem pretty positive. The Abit might be better, but my parents were getting impatient.

When i get all the parts and get up and running i will post here about how it went, power consumption/noise/etc.

Im going to start with the box cooler, but i would like to hear suggestions for a good heatsink, preferably one that could run pseudo-fanless, ie no fan but assisted by a large very slow running case fan.