Uncommon first build questions

Finleyville · Post by **Finleyville** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:53 am

Hello all! There seems to be some very knowledgable and helpful members here. I hope some of you can lead me in the right direction. I have searched this site as well as others to try to come up with a starting place. Thanks in advance!

I am looking to build and replace a simple and cheap mid-ATX sized system for my wife: SUB $500. It will be primarily used for internet 75%, some word processing 15%, and light gaming 10%. Upgradable is somewhat important. (Our current PC is +5 yrs.) AMD chipped (AM2 socket?) and on board video/audio is fine for now. I will be recycling two DVD drives, LCD monitor, possibly the PSU (Seasonic SS-330HB), as well as a HDD with OEM WinXP installed.

The only thing stopping me from a "barebones" system is that it needs to be very quiet. The machine sits 6 feet from our TV. We usually leave the PC on all day so most noise needs to be squelched. Simplicity dictates liquid cooling is out.

Most "quiet PC" sites offer great systems. It's just they offer more system and cost more than we need.

This is what I was thinking:

case: TBD < $125
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Orleans 2.0GHz Socket AM2 $85
MoBo:Open Box: ASUS M2NPV-VM Socket AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 6150 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - OEM $85
Memory: Crucial TBD 1-2GB

Thanks again for all the help!

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:09 am

Simplicity dictates liquid cooling is out.

It's overkill for your components as well. For case I would choose Antec Solo/NSK 3300/NSK 4400, all <$125. What's the PSU? IIRC OEM XP doesn't like being transferred to new machines. If it needs to be very very quiet you might consider an aftermarket CPU cooler and PSU, but maybe not. Good choice of CPU and mobo, the M2NPV-VM is a steal at $45.

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:10 am

Recycling stuff allows you to save money, which is nice. It always frustrated me how half of my projected budget-builds went to stuff like DVD drives and cases.

That said, I would suggest a NSK 3300. It's $85 at newegg and comes with a PSU already. It's been reviewed fairly favourably here, and would be reasonably quiet for the non-obsessed silencers.

I know that you already have a PSU, but it may not be the quietest of the bunch (what brand is it?), and the quality 300 W unit in the NSK 3300 will have no problems running an A64 with integrated graphics -- it probably won't spin up much either.

Another thing to look at might be the hard drive. What brand and model do you have right now? I would recommend mounting it in the damped slot at the bottom of the NSK 3300; it will cost you a PCI slot but you're not using them anyway.

Also of note, I'm not sure that an already-installed OEM XP will boot on a new motherboard. For memory, 1 GB should suffice for internets, office and light gaming; you can update to 2 GB later on if you feel the need.

BTW, that's an awesome price on that motherboard.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:12 am

LOL, great minds think alike!

(yes, I know, fools seldom differ)

pyogenes · Post by **pyogenes** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:16 am

I would add a better CPU heatsink to your shopping list if your budget allows. A good heatsink paired with a quiet fan is far superior to stock heatsinks in both cooling and noise.

ryboto · Post by **ryboto** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:21 am

if you don't mind the cheaper psu, the Asus TM-210 is a small, cheap case with a nice looking face plate that hides your drives. I built a system using the white version of the case for my lab, and I've no complaints. It's not the higest quality case I've ever dealt with, but for the price, it's a bargain.

Finleyville · Post by **Finleyville** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:51 am

jaganath wrote:What's the PSU? IIRC OEM XP doesn't like being transferred to new machines. Good choice of CPU and mobo, the M2NPV-VM is a steal at $45.

My PSU is a Seasonic SS-330HB. I believe that it is an above average PSU.

My only concern with the Mobo is that it is an open box. Does anyone have any experience with OB PC parts? The NIB price is double that listed above.

My Windows HDD is an old POS! I do have a backup Barracuda 80GB ST380011A I could use if I need to buy

another Windows OS.

If I can get away with only a case/Mobo/CPU/memory then I can upgrade the CPU cooler. I am hoping I can recycle the OS.

BTW, I couldn't decypher if that Mobo has at least one serial port. I need just one.

Thanks for the help people! Keep the suggestions coming!

Mike_P · Post by **Mike_P** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:59 am

I would shy away from the NSK3300, its got a sfx power supply that will cost more to replace in the future (if so required).

the NSK4400 is a little bigger, cheaper, and has a standard ATX PSU.

I compeletely agree w/ a previous poster about replacing the CPU HSF. A XP-90 w/ a neus 92mm will be plenty quiet.

dont forget to add a 120mm nexus for exhaust, the Tri-Cool can't compare to it in noise levels.

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:07 am

The PSU is great. It's about as quiet as they get, and will be more than sufficient for your system. Based on that, I would change my recommendation to a case that doesn't come with a PSU... Buying something like the Antec Solo gets you a great case with built-in drive suspension. It's kind of pricy, though, you might want to look around elsewhere.

The motherboard doesn't have a serial port on its backplane. Normally, you'd probably get a PCI plate with a serial port that would plug into somewhere on the motherboard. However, you do not get accessories like this with an open box item.

The Seagate is a nice drive, better than their newest drives, though not quite as good the old Barracuda IVs. I think you will find it quiet enough, especially with Solo's closed front.

You can try to pick and choose a heatsink from the recommended list. Keep in mind that the biggest of 'em were designed to deal with hot Prescott CPUs, which were pumping out more than two times more heat than your CPU will.

Yes, buying Windows is a b*tch, isn't it? You can try seeing if you can get a discounted or free version from your university or employer (if applicable). Other than that, I could suggest trying SUSE 10.1, Ubuntu, or a similar newbie-friendly Linux, but that rules out your games...

vg30et · Post by **vg30et** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:50 am

Finleyville wrote:My only concern with the Mobo is that it is an open box. Does anyone have any experience with OB PC parts? The NIB price is double that listed above.

I've bought several newegg open box video cards and all have worked right out of the box. 2 of them are still working fine in my machines 2+ years later. Both were missing cables, VGA to DVI adapters and the instruction booklet + software. I've been very happy with the m2npv-vm motherboard I purchased from Newegg for my HTPC - but I went with a new one as they didn't have an open box offering at the time.

Btw, the m2npv-vm is picky about RAM - make sure the Crucial is compatible with it. Have you considered a nsk2400 case? It's ~$100 with a power supply included and will give you the option of converting the PC into a HTPC if you so desire.

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:01 am

qviri wrote: Yes, buying Windows is a b*tch, isn't it? You can try seeing if you can get a discounted or free version from your university or employer (if applicable). Other than that, I could suggest trying SUSE 10.1, Ubuntu, or a similar newbie-friendly Linux, but that rules out your games...

An OEM Windows can't be transferred to a new system (which as far as MS is concerned is equivalent to a new motherboard), but I gather you are allowed to replace a "faulty" motherboard and reactivate using the original copy. It will probably take a phone call to explain the situation, but they AFAIK they'll always give you a new activation code without any problems.

Whether the original mobo was indeed faulty is something only you can know... I suppose you could drag the tip of a screwdriver across the traces, then it would be faulty and your conscience would be clear...

Finleyville · Post by **Finleyville** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:35 am

nick705 wrote:I suppose you could drag the tip of a screwdriver across the traces, then it would be faulty and your conscience would be clear...

I hate how a conscience gets in the way.

Would there be any harm in building a PC off of the older 939 socket size? I am sure I can save a bunch of money.

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:33 am

Finleyville wrote:Would there be any harm in building a PC off of the older 939 socket size? I am sure I can save a bunch of money.

If you were able to find a combo deal, perhaps. Unfortunately, DDR memory isn't a whole lot cheaper than DDR2, and you're sacrificing upgradeability. Plus, AM2 chips are great undervolters.

Here's what I'd do:

Mobo: The one you picked out $45
PSU: The one you have
Case: Antec SLK3000B ~$70 shipped
RAM: Patriot Signature 1GB stick $100 shipped ($10 MIR @ newegg if you want it)
CPU: The one you picked out ~$90 shipped
HD: If 80GB is enough, use the 'Cuda

You're probably going to have to reinstall Windows, but if you've only validated once, you'll be able to just validate again without calling. Even if you've validated more than once on your current system, all you have to do is call the MS number and explain that you're upgrading. I just did this the other week, and the person on the other end of the phone cut me off half way through my explanation (probably because they couldn't speak English very well and didn't understand half of it anyway). The important thing is that they'll ask you how many systems you're running it on. Obviously, the correct answer is 1.

Meato · Post by **Meato** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:48 pm

Here is a budget AM2 build I've been working on. Its focus is on inexpensive parts for the time being with the possibility of upgrade down the line. I'll take into account what you are reusing (I think I caught what you posted).

Case: Antec NSK4400 ~$70
Mobo: Biostar Tforce 550 ~$80
Memory: Patriot 2x 512mb kit DDR2 800 ~$147
CPU: AMD Athlon64 3200+ ~$90
Video: Asus EN7300GT Silent ~$89
Optional CPU HS: Zalman 9500 AM2 ~$49

Approximate cost with retail HS: $476
Approximate cost with Zalman HS: $525

The NSK4400 includes a relatively quiet PSU or you can replace it with the one you already have. It can accomadate more parts than the NSK3300, room to expand, and its slighty cheaper. The Biostar has the 500series nvidia chip, however no onboard video, which in my opinion is a non issue, see later comments. The Athlon64 3200+ is a wonderful budget chip. Plenty of power for internet, with some headroom for gaming. Quality Patriot memory. If it were my build, I would include the Zalman 9500. Much quieter than stock heatsink. Much cooler running chip. Also, if you decide to upgrade to dual core in the future, you'll already have the cooling for it.

Onto the video card. Onboard video is absolutely junk for everything but word processing. There are flash animations, vidoes, and other goodies while browsing the net that look blurry even with nVidia integrated gfx. Onboard video takes resources from you motherboard that could be better used elsewhere. The chips on the board themselves tend to run hotter using onboard video. As far as gaming, nVidia nforce 4series integrated wasn't enough to run Diablo2 (how old is that game!) at acceptable frame rates / eye candy / clarity. The mobo has PCI-E for upgrade potential when Dx10 cards come out, or you choose to play a more gfx intensive game/application. The ASUS 7300GT is a passively cooled card with plenty of resources to run resolutions up to 2048x1536. It features 8 pixel pipes and 256mb of GDDR2 128bit memory. Its the best sub$100 passively cooled vid card on the market, in my opinion of course.

Hope that helps. Be sure to give us updates!

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:47 pm

Meato wrote:Case: Antec NSK4400 ~$70

If I had the space for it, I'd go with an SLK3000B. I have an NSK4400 and the panels are thin and don't hold sound in real well. Plus, the SLK3000B is only $60 shipped from zipzoomfly.com and doesn't leave the OP with an extra PSU.

Patriot 2x 512mb kit[/url] DDR2 800 ~$147

That's too expensive and AFAIAA single-core Athlons only officialy support up to DDR2-667 anyway. Even if they did support DDR2-800, it would be overkill here.

There are flash animations, vidoes, and other goodies while browsing the net that look blurry even with nVidia integrated gfx.

Really? Have you actually seen the DVI output from a GeForce 6150 or are you basing this on other integrated video chips with D-Sub out? For example, the integrated ATI Rage chip on my old HP was very clear while the S3 Savage on my friend's computer was pretty blurry.

The chips on the board themselves tend to run hotter using onboard video.

Hmmm, I've never heard of that. Which chips run hotter and do you know why?

Finleyville · Post by **Finleyville** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:56 pm

I think I am talking myself in the 939 chipset. Here is the why:

That open box Mobo is no longer available at $45. It is now $85.

I realized that the next time I will probably upgrade that a newer chipset will be already out by then.

Since I am looking for a Mobo w/ onboard video I have narrowed it down to these two choices:

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Orleans 2.0GHz Socket AM2 $85
MoBo:ASUS M2NPV-VM Socket AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 6150 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - OEM $85
Total: $170

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Venice 1.8GHz 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor $55
MoBo: ASUS A8N-VM CSM Socket 939 NVIDIA GeForce 6150 Micro ATX $77
Total: $132

I thought that I needed the AM2 chipset until I realized that the 939 still has a lot of support. (for now) I guess I just need some reassurance that I am not making a huge mistake by choosing the 939.

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:08 pm

It's not a "huge" mistake by any means. It just really limits your options to upgrade your CPU down the road if you so desire. I'm sure used S939 X2's will be available cheaply in a few years (hopefully, more apps will be multithreaded then) but they're going to draw a little more power.

But I should note that the above price comparison isn't really fair. You should compare apples to apples, so an AM2 3000 is $74 shipped from zipzoomfly.com. So now it's a $27 difference (and maybe a little more after mem prices). Either platform would be quiet and powerful enough, it just depends on whether the CPU upgradeability is worth that much to you.
Also, you should note that the Venice won't go below 1.1V while an AM2 Athlon will (my 3500 runs at 0.9V at 1.0 GHz at idle).

Truth be told, based on your description of usage, I would just grab an AM2 Sempron 3400 ($68) and be done with it. I don't think you'll miss the cache and you can probably get away with the stock cooler if you use CrystalCPUID to undervolt and Speedfan or Asus' fan control to slow down the fan. I doubt you'll hear it over other components. I have to really listen to hear my stock cooler w/fan @ 50% over a suspended WD 2500KS and an Antec Tri-Cool on Low. I could probably run it slower, but I see no point. BTW, core temps are under 30C at idle.

Meato · Post by **Meato** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:09 pm

jackylman wrote: Really? Have you actually seen the DVI output from a GeForce 6150 or are you basing this on other integrated video chips with D-Sub out? For example, the integrated ATI Rage chip on my old HP was very clear while the S3 Savage on my friend's computer was pretty blurry.

I wouldn't know about DVI output. I've only used the integrated gfx with VGA output, as none of my monitors have DVI input.

jackylman wrote: Hmmm, I've never heard of that. Which chips run hotter and do you know why?

Its stated on this site and other hardware sites about the 6100 and 6150 integrated video causing stability issues with systems. I did a quick look thru at some reviews of boards with this chipset on newegg and most boards have more than one complaint about the gfx chip overheating and crashing the system.

If you insist on using the onboard graphics, make sure there is a sizeable heatsink on the chip itself and enough case airflow to move the air off it. Also, make sure there is a PCI-E slot available, for when you get fed up with the crap gfx and decide to pony up a few bills to get a decent video card. Meh, personal choice, but I wouldn't ever use integrated gfx if I intended to run even the most basic gaming.

Heck, when I built a $250 machine for my father, I dropped $25 on a PCI-E Geforce FX5500 even tho it was a nVidia6100 mobo. This was during a sale at a local PC Club. The card was $49 up front with a $25 MIR from PC Club.

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:59 pm

Meato wrote:Heck, when I built a $250 machine for my father, I dropped $25 on a PCI-E Geforce FX5500 even tho it was a nVidia6100 mobo. This was during a sale at a local PC Club. The card was $49 up front with a $25 MIR from PC Club.

Did you ever actually see the Geforce 6100 output and find it unsatisfactory or did you just use the FX5500 from the beginning because you were already biased against onboard graphics?

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:17 am

Onboard video is absolutely junk for everything but word processing. There are flash animations, vidoes, and other goodies while browsing the net that look blurry even with nVidia integrated gfx

This may have been true of older chipsets, but the Nvidia GF6100 and 6150 are pretty good in my experience; flash animations and streaming video plays fine on my Biostar Tforce6100-754.

Its stated on this site and other hardware sites about the 6100 and 6150 integrated video causing stability issues with systems.

I never had any stability issues either, but hey, it all comes down to personal preferences; I don't game, so I can't say how the 6100 and 6150 perform in that respect; probably pretty poorly compared to discrete GFX cards.

Finleyville · Post by **Finleyville** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:58 pm

O.K. Now I am really confused.

I found this AM2 Mobo instead. It also has onboard video and doesn't sound picky with memory choices. Anyone have any experience with the ATI chipset?

ECS RS485M-M (V1.0) Socket AM2 ATI Radeon XPRESS 1100 Micro ATX $60

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:10 pm

Finleyville wrote:Anyone have any experience with the ATI chipset?

More than a few SPCR members have built HTPC's with DFI and MSI boards based off this chipset. One potential drawback I see to the board is the SB460 southbridge's slow USB. If you use USB for large file transfers, look elsewhere. The other drawback is the 2 memory slots, forcing you to use a 1GB stick and sacrifice the small performance gain of dual-channel memory if you ever want to upgrade to 2GB RAM in the future.

Otherwise, the board looks fine. So if this board is a go for you, I would build the system like so:

Case: SLK3000B ~$53 shipped from directron.com (I got one yesterday

)
Mobo: $60 shipped from newegg
RAM: Patriot 1GB $100 shipped from newegg (plus a $10 Mail-In-Rebate)
Alternative: A-Data 2 x 512 MB if you're sure you won't upgrade to 2 GB
CPU: Sempron 3400 $68 shipped from newegg
---------------
Total $281 (+$10 MIR)

From there, you can build the system and monitor temps and noise. Like I said, the stock cooler should be fine if you use Speedfan to slow it down. I'd recommend removing the stock thermal paste from it with rubbing alcohol and using Arctic Silver 5 because I find it makes a nice difference in temps. You probably won't need a dedicated exhaust fan, but if you do, replace the Tri-Cool with a Yate Loon.

Sorry if that was a bit long.

Good luck.

Finleyville · Post by **Finleyville** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:35 pm

jackylman wrote:Sorry if that was a bit long. Good luck.

No, no. I appreciate everyone's help in this matter! I think I will probably pick up that ECS mobo with the Sempron CPU.

I am going to have to research that mobo a little better to choose the correct memory. I am sure that 1 GB will be plenty for my wife's needs.