Seeking Core 2 Duo/Antec Solo Cooling Advice!

[tcn]

Hi all,

I've been having a discussion over at the Tom's Hardware Guide Forums and I was directed here to get some more specific advice. I was wondering if somebody could advise me?

I built the following system a few weeks ago:

Antec Solo Case
Antec NeoHE 500W PSU
Gigabyte 965P-DS4 (rev 1.0)
Core 2 Duo E6600
Corsair TWIN2x2048-6400 (DDR2-800, 2x1GB, CAS5)
MSI GeForce 7900GTO 512MB
2 Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB drives running in RAID-0 configuration
Hauppauge WinTV Nova-T PCI
Philips 190CW 19 inch Widescreen LCD 5ms

It's been running fine, but I got the Antec Solo case because I wanted it to be really quiet, and starting to get greedy about this I asked over at THG about whether it might be worth getting a replacement CPU fan for the original Core 2 Duo one, purely to reduce the noise level further. The discussion goes on for a couple of pages, but one issue that arose is a general consensus that my temperatures are a little too high (though not imminently dangerous), and that much of this is to do with a lack of active air intake on the Solo case as it stands.

As it stands, the CPU idles at about 40-45 (though Intel TAT, reporting separate temperatures for each core, says a bit higher) and under maximum TAT stress load, it tops off at about 65ish, occasionally a degree or two more. The "system" temperature (which believe refers to the internal case temperature) is always around 40, regardless of load of any component. GPU "idles" at about 42 and reaches about 62 under load (I believe this one is ok, and I'm not really prepared to change the GPU fan anyway). I know of no way that I can monitor the HDD temperatures since they're behind the RAID controller.

My questions are:

-Are my temperatures high enough to warrant concern, given that I want the system to last a reasonable while?
-Should I install intake fans on the Solo case (if so, one or two?), given that I want to keep the noise level at a minimum? If so, would this be sufficient to keep the CPU temperatures at an acceptable level, or is a new CPU heatsink/fan also desirable.
-Would replacing the CPU fan give me a significant drop in noise? (i.e. would it be worth the cost?)

I would also appreciate advice on any specific product recommendations for my system, given that:
a) I would really like to spend as little as possible. This computer has cost me a fortune and I now have little money left to spend!
b) I must be able to get hold of the product easily in the UK: some products I've read about don't seem to exist here.
c) I would really like to avoid having to remove my motherboard from the case if at all possible!

Thanks very much in advance for any advice that anybody can offer.

[angelkiller]

That's a pretty sweet rig!

No your temps are fine. It'll last.
Maybe 1 Nexus fan would help.

Would replacing the CPU fan give me a significant drop in noise?

Uhhhh.... YES!!!! DEFINITELY, replace the stock cooler.

Look at this and this. They both are on the budget side of quiet.

And you have a 7900GTO!! *drool* where did you find it??

[autoboy]

I disagree. 65C is on the high side. It is not a huge deal but not something I would feel comfortable with day in and day out. I prefer to keep my cpus under 60C.

A couple of obvious questions, my appologies if they have already been addressed at Toms

Is the cpu cooler correctly attached? Have you tried reseating it, do you have cpu grease, do you have too much cpu grease?

Do you have bios fan control enabled? what are your fan rpms? At load, at idle?

From first hand experience of many people here, adding an intake fan to a Solo did not help much if at all with temps

[AndeeG]

I have a similar rig (SOLO, e6600 w/ stock HSF, p5b-e) and seem to have lower temps than you. I keep the tricool exhaust on low and use Q-Fan to control the CPU fan, which runs at about 850rpm while idling/basic stuff like firefox + itunes.

My temps differ significantly between monitoring program, but TAT says I run at around 37 during basic stuff and after a couple minutes of 100% load hit 55 (with the fan running at around 1750rpm)

If you provided some fan rpms for each temperature, that would probably help a great deal in determining if this is really a problem or not.

On a side note, I'm also looking for recommendations for a budget-ish HSF, though you don't have to consider the UK limitation for me.

[tcn]

That's a pretty sweet rig!

Thanks! Not the kind of thing I can afford to do very often, this was the "big thing" for my 21st birthday - relatives and friends helped raise the cash to let me do it. This is why it has to last, since I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to do anything similar again!!

No your temps are fine. It'll last.
Maybe 1 Nexus fan would help.

Would replacing the CPU fan give me a significant drop in noise?

Uhhhh.... YES!!!! DEFINITELY, replace the stock cooler.

Look at this and this. They both are on the budget side of quiet.

Thanks for the suggestions - seems you definitely have a strong opinion! Has anybody heard of a "sone" before by the way? (the Arctic Cooler specs say "Noise Level: 1.2 sone"). According to the Wikipedia article I just read, it would seem to imply that the AC model is quite loud, but I could be interpreting it wrong.

And you have a 7900GTO!! *drool* where did you find it??

Hehe! Got it from Dabs.com. Was my good luck that they'd just got a new batch in stock when I was choosing components for this machine. Got myself what's moreorless a GTX for £75 less! Needless to say, the last of their stock ran out a couple of days after I received mine.

I disagree. 65C is on the high side. It is not a huge deal but not something I would feel comfortable with day in and day out. I prefer to keep my cpus under 60C.

A couple of obvious questions, my appologies if they have already been addressed at Toms

Is the cpu cooler correctly attached? Have you tried reseating it, do you have cpu grease, do you have too much cpu grease?

Do you have bios fan control enabled? what are your fan rpms? At load, at idle?

From first hand experience of many people here, adding an intake fan to a Solo did not help much if at all with temps

Yeah, I've been thinking the same way as you about the temperatures. It doesn't bother me massively for now, but I'm not sure I want to stay at these kinds of temperatures for too long. To answer your questions:

I'm reasonably sure that the CPU cooler is correctly attached: all four of the push-in things clicked into place as they're supposed to. I haven't tried reseating it yet. When I seated it the first time around, I didn't apply thermal grease because the cooler came with "thermal interface material" pre-applied (quite strange looking, though). I have in my possession a tube of thermal grease, but it's only generic unbranded stuff that's probably about 8-10 years old (I've been into playing with computer hardware since quite a young age...)

I have the fans controlled through the BIOS, yes, on the "Auto" setting. I've tried the alternative settings ("Intel QST", "Legacy" and "Disabled"), but "Auto" turned out to be the best (temperature rose slightly, fan didn't step up enough under load and FAR too noisy, respectively to the three alternative settings). According to Gigabyte's "EasyTune" software, my fanspeed at the moment is about 1350RPM. Gigabyte's software is the only program that doesn't report garbage to me - "SpeedFan" tells me that it's going at 8000ishRPM at load! It also tells me rubbish like my 12V rail being at 0.7V, VCore1 at 1.14V with VCore2 at 1.9V, -12V at -16.97V, etc etc etc. Under a sustained TAT maximum load of a couple of minutes, the fan RPM (according to Gigabyte) tops off at about 2100RPM. Interestingly enough, the only time that the Gigabyte software doesn't have a flashing ! next to the indicator is when it's over 2000, but I put this down to Gigabyte's software being out-of-date and not used to varying fan-speeds, rather than anything I should be concerned about.

I have a similar rig (SOLO, e6600 w/ stock HSF, p5b-e) and seem to have lower temps than you. I keep the tricool exhaust on low and use Q-Fan to control the CPU fan, which runs at about 850rpm while idling/basic stuff like firefox + itunes.

My temps differ significantly between monitoring program, but TAT says I run at around 37 during basic stuff and after a couple minutes of 100% load hit 55 (with the fan running at around 1750rpm)

This concerns me: you have lower temperatures AND lower RPMs, so something would seem to be not right with mine. Did you use the pre-applied thermal interface stuff with your heatsink, or did you apply thermal paste of some description? I too have the Tricool on low.

Interestingly, my northbridge and southbridge temperatures are actually lower than the "system" temperature (southbridge significantly so). Can't remember the exact figures (can only get them from BIOS), but I'm guessing that it's thanks to the "Silent-Pipe" cooling solution on my motherboard which passes air from the CPU cooler around the board. You can see it on this picture (just!):



Bear in mind that this also constrains what CPU fans I can have since it rather limits the space around the CPU.

Thanks for the suggestions so far, people. Keep them coming...

[tcn]

Ok I've been looking at the CPU fans you suggested, angelkiller. I'm liking the price on the Arctic Cooling one, but I have three concerns:

1) Any idea how much cooler it runs than the stock cooler? They have the Pentium 4 cooler for comparison on the AC website, but I don't know how that compares to the Core 2 Duo one. (same for noise-levels I suppose...)
2) It appears to mount with the fan sideways. I believe this might affect the cooling of the chipset because of the intake on the cooling pipes around the CPU. Thoughts?
3) Any idea where I can find out if it'll fit on my board/in my case?

I can't find anything out about the Zalman since their website is broken at the moment... However, the page you directed me to doesn't suggest that it's suitable for socket 775...

Thanks!

[ultrachrome]

Ok I've been looking at the CPU fans you suggested, angelkiller. I'm liking the price on the Arctic Cooling one, but I have three concerns:

1) Any idea how much cooler it runs than the stock cooler? They have the Pentium 4 cooler for comparison on the AC website, but I don't know how that compares to the Core 2 Duo one. (same for noise-levels I suppose...)
2) It appears to mount with the fan sideways. I believe this might affect the cooling of the chipset because of the intake on the cooling pipes around the CPU. Thoughts?
3) Any idea where I can find out if it'll fit on my board/in my case?

I can't find anything out about the Zalman since their website is broken at the moment... However, the page you directed me to doesn't suggest that it's suitable for socket 775...

Thanks!

It should be a significant improvement. The chipset will be fine. Yes it will fit.

I've never used the TIM that comes on a heatsink. I dont' know how well the grease ages but you can get a small tube of the stuff from Radio Shack or a local computer store for a few bucks.

You should really clean up those cables. They can negatively effect cooling. Bundle them up and keep them out of the airflow path.

[angelkiller]

I disagree. 65C is on the high side.

Maybe my definition of "hot" is a little off. After all, I have a dual core netburst running at 3.4GHz. (Can hit 70C easy.) I have reconsidered, and I now agree with autoboy, you temps are on the high side. I also would agree with reseating the heatsink.

1) Look at this SPCR Review. The page I linked shows the temps, but read the whole review.

2) I don't understand what you mean by "with the fan sideways", but the Freezer's fan blows to the exhaust fan. The Freezer's bottom fins are angled down so some of the airflow, is directed at the chipset/vrm heatsinks.

3) Look at my post in this thread. The pictures show a Freezer 64 (the amd version) in a NSK3300. It barely fit there, so it will definitely fit a Solo.

If I didn't answer all you questions, just tell me.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

You should really clean up those cables. They can negatively effect cooling. Bundle them up and keep them out of the airflow path.

Absolutely! The Solo has excellent ways to make them almost invisible, or at least out of the air flow:

Use the hooks on the backside of the HD frame, and use the space behind the mobo plate, and use cablegami...

[tcn]

I agree about the cables: the folks at THG shamed me into sorting them out soon, though there are actually more in there than since that photo was taken! I'm not convinced that it'll make a huge difference, since there's no active air intake, but every little helps. It's not one of my strong-points, but I'll see what I can do!

Regarding the chipset thing and the sideways thing, let me explain better what I mean. The AC fan seems to mount with the fan perpendicular to the board with the airflow coming out the opposite side. If you go here and look at the enlarged view of my board, you can see the cooling system around the CPU. In order to work, it would seem to rely on an even dispersion of air around the CPU into those bronze-coloured pipes. Hence I'm concerned that the air flow into this system will not be adequate with a fan of this design (whereas the Intel stock one disperses air equally around the CPU).

Regarding fitting it in, fitting it on the motherboard would be a concern as well as whether it'll fit in the Solo (i.e. if the existing cooling system will be in the way).

Thanks for the link to the review, Angelkiller, but it's just put me off the fan in question with the comment, "for anyone interested in low noise, none of the above heatsink configurations are worthwhile. They are all just too loud."

[angelkiller]

you can see the cooling system around the CPU.

Ah, I understand now. To me, the heatsinks are enough, splash airflow isn't necessary. But since this concerns you look into the SI-128. The fan blows downward to help cool the VRM sinks.

As for installation, look at this. I know it's a AM2 mobo, but look at how tall the heatsinks are! The SI-128 Still fits. You could always rotate it 90 degrees so the heatpipes stick out where the heatsink isn't.

for anyone interested in low noise, none of the above heatsink configurations are worthwhile. They are all just too loud.

This comment was made referring to the "AT HIGH SPEED / NOISE" chart. At full speed, of course it's not quiet.

But look at how cool the P4 runs when the fan is on full speed. Now imagine how much cooler a C2D would run with the fan at full speed. Now clock the fan down to 70%. Now it's quiet, and your C2D still idles at a really nice temperature.

OK, I'll admit it. The Freezer 7 was not designed to be a silent cooler. But it can be made quiet.

[tcn]

Well the reason that I'm concerned about the air intake on those pipes is that they're specifically designed to take advantage of air from the CPU cooler.

Yeah, I take your point about running the cooler at a lower RPM, but if I'm spending money on a new cooler, I'd really prefer to spend the money on one that's designed to be quiet.

I'll keep looking. In the meantime, other suggestions are very welcome!

[AndeeG]

Well the reason that I'm concerned about the air intake on those pipes is that they're specifically designed to take advantage of air from the CPU cooler.

Yeah, I take your point about running the cooler at a lower RPM, but if I'm spending money on a new cooler, I'd really prefer to spend the money on one that's designed to be quiet.

I'll keep looking. In the meantime, other suggestions are very welcome!

As angelkiller said, the bottom fins on the arctic freezer 7 pro direct air towards your motherboard. I would guess this would be enough for the small heatsink.

To your previous question, I used the standard pre-applied thermal paste with my stock HSF. However, my wiring, whole not too great, is much less obstructive than yours. You definitely need to clean that up.

[autoboy]

There are a few other heatsinks that provide VRM cooling that work ok. I can't name them all so I won't try but I'm sure you could search around for them here. The SI-128 is not the best because the fins are too close. Look for heatsinks with widely spaced fins. They work better with low airflow. Aerocase has one called the Xfire. I like frozen cpu because they organize better than newegg and have all the good heatsinks. I still buy from newegg.

http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g40/c14 ... Page1.html

Before you spend any money pick up some thermal grease and remount that heatsink. The brand matters only a degree or 2 so just pick whatever up. Arctic Silver is a favorite. You could have bad contact with the cpu. You could also have a cpu that is not flat, or a cooler that is not flat on the bottom. This can affect temps significantly.

You might just have a board that reports the temp too high. This happens pretty often. I had one board that always read 75C at idle. It would go to 90C at load and the computer was totally stable. The heatsink was only warm to the touch.

[angelkiller]

You can get Arctic Silver 5 Here. (Geez, shipping will rape you! Product= $6 Shipping= $5)

I don't know much about how fin spacing affects cooling, but I know it does! I like the look of the XFire.... Until they took the fan off. There aren't many fins. And of course, most of Zalman's products will fit your situation nicely.

[tcn]

OK, well I think I'll try clearing up the wiring and see if that helps. Then I'll reseat the existing cooler, if it's still no better, with the standard paste I have. I can't imagine that the fact it's old will make much difference - I used it to seat a Mobile Pentium 4 in my Dell Inspiron laptop and it ran cooler than the previous Celeron for it. These days it can reach 75 or so under a large load but then the Inspiron 1150 has issues with cooling, so I think I might just need to clear out the vents a bit (also the Mobile Pentium 4 will run up to 100C until it shuts down). Anyway, I'm getting off the point here...

If I do replace the CPU cooler, I'm thinking that the Zalman 7 series might be appropriate in terms of cost/performance. However, Zalman's website seems to still be broken (I can't get any sense out of the product pages - can anybody else?), so I'm struggling to find out about them. Could anybody tell me whether installation involves removing the motherboard?

You can get Arctic Silver 5 Here. (Geez, shipping will rape you! Product= $6 Shipping= $5)

Well I can't get it from there. NewEgg ship only within the USA and Puerto Rico. Quite annoying how much cheaper you Americans get things. The same product from Dabs.com (where I usually get things) is £6.08 (about $12) with £3.24 delivery (about $6)!

[DaveLessnau]

Here's a link to a good thread detailing how to clean up your cables:

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview ... TARTPAGE=1

[tcn]

Thanks.

This is beginning to remind me of having to make all the wires tidy for school electronics projects!

[angelkiller]

Well I can't get it from there. Razz NewEgg ship only within the USA and Puerto Rico. Smile Quite annoying how much cheaper you Americans get things. The same product from Dabs.com (where I usually get things) is £6.08 (about $12) with £3.24 delivery (about $6)!

Oh! I forgot you were in the UK! My bad. But GEEZ!! I thought US prices were a ripoff! $12 for AS5!

Anyways, the Zalman website doesn't work for me either, but I did get to see an installation video on their homepage, that shows a backplate being installed. So I do think you're gonna hafta remove your mobo.

[tcn]

Well I've just spent an hour improving the cable layout inside. I didn't go to town with cable-ties and spiral-wrap (though I did have some to hand), and it's no work of art, but I'm sure you'll agree that it's massively better than what it was:



I haven't had an opportunity to properly test it out yet, but WOW, what a difference. After bootup, the Gigabyte tool reported that both the system and CPU temperatures were 7-8C cooler than before (System 32, was 40, CPU 35, was 42). The GPU is also running 7C cooler (35C, was 42C).

Additionally, the CPU fan is now running slower (around 800RPM) which makes an undetectable noise difference at idle, but might make a big difference at load. Unfortunately, I can't do a full 100% load test at the moment as the machine is recording a TV program (and doing a TAT load will make the recording stuttery), but I'll keep you posted.

[NeilBlanchard]

Eeeeegsellent! [/Mr. Burns voice]

[merlin]

And you have a 7900GTO!! *drool* where did you find it??

I do love my 7900GTO....but since the 8800 came out, the 7900GTO is kinda obsolete for new users. It is a lovely $400-450 card masquerading for $250, but now there's $299 8800GTX 320MB's which will perform better and I believe use the same cooler.(not to mention DirectX 10 support) No reason to pursue the 7900GTO route anymore unless they can be found for $200. The only "downside" is the GTO actually has more ram.

[Shhh,Peaceful]

I've got the E6600 on an Asus P5N E-SLI with 1gig ram and BFG GeForce 7600GT OC in the Antec P150 case with NeoHE 430W PSU. One WD 320g SATA drive and one DVD burner.

With the Tri-powered fan set to 'medium' and the stock Intel CPU cooler without the Qfan turned on, my idle temps are about 34ºC - CPU and 32ºC for the MB.

If I set the tri-powered fan to 'low' my temps go up buy about 3-4ºC

If I turn the Q-fan on my temps go up about 5-8ºC

[angelkiller]

With the Tri-powered fan set to 'medium' and the stock Intel CPU cooler without the Qfan turned on

Don't you find that kinda loud?

[tcn]

I do love my 7900GTO....but since the 8800 came out, the 7900GTO is kinda obsolete for new users. It is a lovely $400-450 card masquerading for $250, but now there's $299 8800GTX 320MB's which will perform better and I believe use the same cooler.(not to mention DirectX 10 support) No reason to pursue the 7900GTO route anymore unless they can be found for $200. The only "downside" is the GTO actually has more ram.

Well I can see what you're saying. However, when I got my GTO, the 320MB model of the 8800GTS had not been released and the others were too pricey for me. Even if the 320MB GTS had been available, though, I would have been reluctant to get it since I was looking for a 512MB card (at least one game I own requires that for all the textures on the most advanced settings).

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions and help here. I've now tested the temperatures with TAT and it now peaks at around 55C - talk about an improvement! Additionally, it is now a helluva lot quieter as the fan RPM maxes at about 1500RPM instead of the previous 2000RPM. Consequently, I've decided to hold off from buying anything for now (possibly something I'll do after I move house), as I'm now a lot happier with my temperatures and noise-level (not bad for spending no money, hey?) Indeed, I think that (when at "idle" at least) my HDDs are now possibly the bigger noisemaker in the system.

[tcn]

Ok, well I'm going to open this back up for discussion again. The reason is that after a few hours, the case temperature happily builds up to 40C again. The CPU individual core temperatures is now well in the comfort zone under large load, but the case temperature can still reach 60Cish.

Anyway, the obvious solution would seem to be a 92mm intake fan. I'd very much like a Nexus or a Fander (having read the SPCR article), but I can't get Fander at all and the only place I've found Nexus wants to charge me £12 for it (plus P+P, while they're selling the 80mm and 120mm fans for under £5)...

Suggestions?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Scythe DF 92mm 1600RPM (or 2000RPM) is a very quiet fan.

[ultrachrome]

Ok, well I'm going to open this back up for discussion again. The reason is that after a few hours, the case temperature happily builds up to 40C again. The CPU individual core temperatures is now well in the comfort zone under large load, but the case temperature can still reach 60Cish.

Anyway, the obvious solution would seem to be a 92mm intake fan. I'd very much like a Nexus or a Fander (having read the SPCR article), but I can't get Fander at all and the only place I've found Nexus wants to charge me £12 for it (plus P+P, while they're selling the 80mm and 120mm fans for under £5)...

Suggestions?

My guess is that because your stock heatsink sends hot air in every direction, the rear fan is probably exhausting a considerable amount of cool air while some of the CPU heated air continues to swirl around the case.

Installing a Ninja, HR01, or similarly large tower heatsink that you can enclose in a duct with the rear fan would help ensure that any air heated by the CPU goes straight out the back. Another benefit would be that with the duct you would not need a fan on the heatsink removing a source of noise.

Not to dissuade you from trying the front fan first as that would be less expensive.

[tcn]

Hello,

Scythe DF 92mm 1600RPM (or 2000RPM) is a very quiet fan.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I seem only able to find the 120mm Scythe fans in the UK.

My guess is that because your stock heatsink sends hot air in every direction, the rear fan is probably exhausting a considerable amount of cool air while some of the CPU heated air continues to swirl around the case.

Installing a Ninja, HR01, or similarly large tower heatsink that you can enclose in a duct with the rear fan would help ensure that any air heated by the CPU goes straight out the back. Another benefit would be that with the duct you would not need a fan on the heatsink removing a source of noise.

Not to dissuade you from trying the front fan first as that would be less expensive.

I'm prepared at this stage to bet that an intake fan will sort everything out. The temperatures are great for the first hour or so, after which the temperature inside just builds up. With a decent airflow passing through I reckon the system temperature will be low and everything else will stay cool as it does just after switch-on.

Any opinions on the Xilence 92mm fan?

[tcn]

Well I found that EndPCNoise ships internationally and was able to offer me two Nexus fans for a total of about £16 with the delivery factored in (something of an improvement on £12 for one fan!), so I went ahead and ordered. I guess it'll be around a week until I get them, but I'll update when they arrive.