Provisional shopping list, q about fan for Ninja, etc

[Jennifer]

Hello all

Following on from an earlier thread in the motherboards section,
here: viewtopic.php?t=39508
... I now have a provisional list of bits.

Criteria for the machine, briefly:

1. Preferably inaudible to me - daytime I have traffic noise, but if I get up early it's very peaceful here so I'll notice the finer points. An exception: optical & floppy drives will get so little use, I don't really care if they make noise while active.

2. Main uses will be internet, databases (nothing enormous) and word processing, primarily on Linux but with a few legacy Win98 things. Shan't be doing anything that requires especially fast graphics, though I may occasionally use Dragon Naturally Speaking to convert audio to text, which does use quite a bit of processing power.

3. Financial cost of the bits isn't a huge factor as it'll be spread over many many hours of use.

4. All other things being equal, less wattage is good simply for reasons of global greenness.

Provisional list:

Motherboard --- ASrock ALiveNF6G-DVI
CPU --- AMD AM2 Athlon 64 3600+ Dual Core 2.0GHz
Memory --- Corsair VS2GBKIT533D2, 2x1GB
Case --- Antec Solo P150 Tower Case
Power supply --- Antec NeoHE 430 Watt Quiet Power Supply (comes with P150)
2 hard drives --- Samsung 80GB 2.5" HM080HI SATA
Optical drive --- NEC 18x DVD±RW/RAM Silver SATA
Floppy drive --- something basic
CPU Cooler --- Scythe Ninja Plus Rev.B CPU Cooler SCNJ-1100P
Case insulation --- Acoustipack Deluxe V2
Extra fan --- Nexus 120 in place of TriCool 120 case fan
Fan gasket --- Acousti Black Anti-vibration 120mm Fan Gasket
Fan controller --- Zalman Fanmate 2 Variable Fan Speed Controller (maybe)
Modem --- something basic (only for backup if the network goes down and I need to get email)
Serial port --- see question 2 below

For some of those bits, I've gone through some kind of fairly systematic process of research, asked around and compared recommended products with what's available from UK sellers. For others, I've just blatantly copied it off someone else's design to save the time of research (e.g. the Nexus fan and Acoustipack insulation, from one of Mike Chin's designs for EndPCNoise also using the P150, linked to from this site). So I'm not under the illusion that this is some kind of scientifically established perfection, just a list which sounds reasonably plausible to me so far :-)

(Incidentally, having 2 hard drives isn't for RAID, it's just because I like to have programs on one drive and data on another. This means it's easy to back up just the data, and if-&-when I do fill the data drive up, it's relatively quick and simple to replace it with a bigger one.)

Questions I already have:

1. The main one is about the CPU and the Ninja and whether it needs a fan. Could do with some help in thinking this through...

On www.quietpc.com, it advises:
"We recommend using this cooler fanless if your CPU is a Pentium 4 Northwood (any speed), or an Athlon 64 3500+ or lower. If you intend to use the cooler with a socket 775 processor or a CPU faster than an Athlon 64 3500+ then we recommend you install the supplied 120mm fan. The Ninja-PLUS is supplied with two retaining clips and a 120mm fan for use with a high-end CPU, like Intel’s and AMD’s new dual core processors."
(quoted from http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/produc ... /ninjaplus)

I've not totally got my head round all the various Athlon processors there are, but this is the one I'm looking at, chosen basically because it's the lowest-number dual-core one I could see for sale currently:
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=565178
(bit confused by their listing because the box in the picture says X2 and the text description doesn't - but the mfr number ADA3600CUBOX appears to be for an X2... and the text does say dual core...(?) - would appreciate a heads-up if you think this looks inconsistent/wrong)

On the face of it, it seems as though anything called 3600+ must count as higher than a 3500+. I'm not taking for granted that the heat stats will be exactly comparable from range to range (don't dual core sometimes run cooler than equivalent single core? or am I making that up?) But either way, as 3600 isn't much higher than 3500, maybe it's close enough that I'd get away with it?

One question is what effect Cool 'n' Quiet would have. Does the software for that work on Linux?

On the other hand, supposing that I did install a fan next to the heat sink, there's the question of dynamic control over the fan speed. If the fan only kicked in when strictly necessary, then I suspect it probably would be off 99% of the time if not all the time, due to a combination of low processing power required and lowish temperature in the room. (In the height of summer, the room here might get up to 30 degrees Celsius occasionally, but mostly not.) On my current machine, there seems to be at least one fan which starts up when things get hot enough and not otherwise - but I haven't researched that area and I don't know what's standard and what's have-to-go-and-get-it. (I.i.r.c. the Zalman Fanmate is a static thing once set, or am I wrong?)

Then, also, if I'm installing a fan anyway, might I just as well go for the Scythe Infinity, which is cheaper but i.i.r.c. doesn't claim to run fanless?

Bit tangled up here in the many variables, as you can see! Thoughts?

2. Not a quietness question, but a general computer-building one. Description of ASRock board includes the phrase "1 x COM Port header". Am I right in thinking that
a) COM port is a synonym for serial port?
b) header means a bit to which I could attach some kind of cable, with a connector on the end which is then inset to the external case?

i.e. does this give me a serial port (of which I need one, to connect my Psion for backups etc.), or would I have to get one some other way (e.g. on a PCI card)?

3. Monitors. Don't know if LCD ones make any noise, do they?

Many thanks in advance for expertise / comments / anecdotes / opinions :-)

Jennifer

[jaganath]

either way, as 3600 isn't much higher than 3500, maybe it's close enough that I'd get away with it?

TDP of X2 3600 is 65W, similar to P4 Northwood, you'll be fine.

One question is what effect Cool 'n' Quiet would have. Does the software for that work on Linux?

AFAIAA, no. However your motherboard supports undervolting the CPU, so you can do that instead.

I.i.r.c. the Zalman Fanmate is a static thing once set

correct.

Then, also, if I'm installing a fan anyway, might I just as well go for the Scythe Infinity, which is cheaper but i.i.r.c. doesn't claim to run fanless?

Ninja is better for low airflow, which you need to stay quiet.

never used a COM port, sorry.

Some LCD monitors do make noise (buzzing/whine), trial and error basically. Avoid Iiyama (in my experience).

[Gojira-X]

I would also consider the Tt Big Typhoon as it has received favourable reviews in SPCR, plus it cools the motherboard components as well.

COM Port = Serial port
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COM_port

If the motherboard does not include a serial port in the backplate, there will be a cable that allows one end to plug into the COM header and the other into a PCI bracket. Be careful as some lower end boards will not include this part.

It is however a cheap part to get costing a couple of pounds.

[qviri]

2. Not a quietness question, but a general computer-building one. Description of ASRock board includes the phrase "1 x COM Port header". Am I right in thinking that
a) COM port is a synonym for serial port?
b) header means a bit to which I could attach some kind of cable, with a connector on the end which is then inset to the external case?

i.e. does this give me a serial port (of which I need one, to connect my Psion for backups etc.), or would I have to get one some other way (e.g. on a PCI card)?

a) yes b) yes
the final question: unless explicitly stated, the cable itself will generally not be included. This is especially true since Asrock is a budget board. You will have to get the cable separately. It's on a PCI bracket, but does not physically mount in a PCI slot. (It does, however, effectively block that slot.)


About the CPU. That Scan page is a mess. It simultaneously states that the CPU clock is 2.0 GHz (in product name at the top of the page) and 1.9 GHz (in "technical specifications"). It also says that the CPU has a Windsor core. The product number - ADO3600CUBOX - indicates a 2.0 GHz X2 3600+, which I think is a 90nm Windsor core, so that would check out. I guess you should go by the product number here...

Scan doesn't seem to have it, but you may want to try looking for a ADO3600DDBOX - this is a 65 nm Brisbane core 3600+, and should run cooler.

Either way, that CPU is capable of being cooled by a Ninja with the case fan nearby.

[Poodle]

Jennifer, isn't that board is a uATX? Then do you really need a ATX case?


Also, You should get these instead of the gasket: http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/ultra ... mounts.asp


And get a Samsung DVD-RW instead of NEC. They cost a bit more but make less noise.


Finally the new 3,5 hard drives are really quiet and will be faster and cheaper than any 2,5, as the hard drive is the biggest bottleneck... I know that it's a bit of tradition here using lappie drives but there is actually no need for it in a desktop anymore. Go for the new drives from WD or Samsung. I would save the money and maybe get a SSD in the future.

[Greg F.]

I am running an Abit KN9 (nice board, by the way), Brisbane 3600x2 with the Scythe Ninja passive. Core is at 21 degrees C. and ambient temp in the room is 21C. Honest. Amazing. Confirmed bySisoft Sandra and AMD CnQ. Core is at 1.1 v. when cut back by CnQ, otherwise 1.35v.
I thought if you set cpu voltage to "user defined" the CnQ wasn't supposed to work?
120 Yate Loon out the back, Nexus 80 in the front (I think I need this for the passive video card), passive 7600GS. The only things I hear are the FPS 60GLN 300watt PS and the hard drive. And this is in an el cheapo Ultra Wizard case, a mistake of mine. I will get a Solo.
The Scythe is really easy to install. A caveman could do it.
The Brisbane 3600+ is $59 with free shipping today at NewEgg. At these low temps I should overclock this processor.
When I do the following simultaneously the core temps go up to 25C: have ten tabs open on Foxfire, listen to netstream with MAudio Revolution, rip disc to hard drive and convert to FLAC. When DBPower amp is compressing to FLAC the cpu maxes out.
I don't see anything wrong with your choices at all. I don't need 2Gs of memory, but memory has become pretty cheap right now.
Go for it.

[jaganath]

The Brisbane 3600+ is $59 with free shipping today at NewEgg

you lucky lucky US people (green with envy ) more like $100 in UK

[Poodle]

After second thought you might need the "longer" soft mounts for the fans as they are Nexus (YL), that have pipes between the bolt holes which makes the short ones hard to fit properly. This can be sorted though quite "easy" using som tool like a knife or Dremel. But it's best to use the long ones like Cooltek (and others?) make, seen to the left in the box: http://pc-cooling.de/Low-Noise+PC/Acces ... t.html#top

[qviri]

One question is what effect Cool 'n' Quiet would have. Does the software for that work on Linux?

AFAIAA, no. However your motherboard supports undervolting the CPU, so you can do that instead.

Cool 'n' Quiet does work on Linux, but you will probably have to configure it. Gooling "cnq linux" or variations seems to bring up a healthy number of hits; exact procedure will probably depend on your distribution.

Jennifer, isn't that board is a uATX? Then do you really need a ATX case?

And what is the alternative? The Antec NSK 3300 has cabling issues, the NSK 3400 seems to be a bit better (if you can buy it) bit still will be a bit cramped. The Silverstone TJ-08 is expensive even without a PSU. IMHO going for a smaller case is going to make the build more difficult and isn't worth it unless you really need the space.

[HolyBastard]

2. Not a quietness question, but a general computer-building one. Description of ASRock board includes the phrase "1 x COM Port header". Am I right in thinking that
a) COM port is a synonym for serial port?
b) header means a bit to which I could attach some kind of cable, with a connector on the end which is then inset to the external case?

i.e. does this give me a serial port (of which I need one, to connect my Psion for backups etc.), or would I have to get one some other way (e.g. on a PCI card)?

Looking at the ASRock ALiveNF6G-DVI Specifications you can see in the list of accessories that it includes 1 x COM port bracket. So you do not need to buy anything else. You will have to connect it somewhere on the motherboard (usually found in the manual) to have a serial port available though

[Jennifer]

Thanks people! this is all very useful.

Will reply more properly later (probably with more questions :-) ).

[Jennifer]

re qviri's comments on CPUs:

have sent scan an email-type message to say could they fix their page. meanwhile that item has gone out of stock for now anyway.

The Brisbane 3600+ dual-core (code ADO3600DDBOX) does sound like a better idea on the face of it. I hadn't twigged that there were all these different varieties. How can you tell it runs cooler? - is that from reviews or something that an expert eye can detect from the different specs?

However, on a practical level, I can't find any UK supplier - not even one with a poor reputation - who has both the ASRock board and the 3600+ Brisbane CPU. I was hoping to find someone to sell me the board, CPU and memory all together, so as to guard against the possibility of that annoying situation where two different suppliers are arguing over whose fault it is that the system doesn't work.

To get all three from the same place I would have to choose a different chip (either the one I'd listed first or another one from Scan - who seem to be the only people who have both the ASRock board and a decent reputation for how they handle problems/returns).

If I risk having two different suppliers, then I could get the board and memory from Scan and the chip from www.stuff-uk.net. I must admit I'm tempted to do that now, but is that being a bit reckless in case of problems? what do you all think? I suppose if I did get an initial not-working-ness which seemed to be down to malfunctioning hardware, I could resort to buying another chip from Scan and then sending the whole lot back to them if that didn't sort it.

Also, supposing I went for a slightly higher-speed chip from Scan, would I still be safe to run the Ninja without its fan? Where would you all reckon to put the cutoff for that?

Other stuff...

Thanks HolyBastard for spotting that COM bracket in the board accessory specs. I must have seen that at some stage, but not registered what it meant. And thanks to the others for clarifying. I don't know why I didn't find that wikipedia page! Definitely did look on wikipedia for "com port". Oh well.

Poodle, I don't know if I can get those longer soft mounts for the fans. Couldn't find them on quietpc.co.uk. Might have to stick with my original plan there. And re Antec case, it's roughly what qviri said - I do have room for a tower case under my desk and there was no reason why not. I'll probably fit an old Iomega Zip drive as well as my "shopping list" so I was wary of going for a smaller size.

Thanks for other info & encouragement too :-)

[taidi]

Hi Jennifer,

There's a pretty clear picture of the box contents for the ALiveNF6G-DVI here

http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/ ... ges/04.JPG

and it does include a serial port backplate,cable and connector for the header on the motherboard.

I too have chosen this board to use for my upgrade next month so have a keen interest in your project. The manual is available on line if you want to read it before you buy

http://download.asrock.com/manual/qig/ALiveNF6G-DVI.pdf

I found two versions of the AM2 3600+ dual core cpu available in the UK at the moment, - ADO3600DDBOX which has the new Brisbane 65nm core and ADO3600CUBOX which is the Energy Efficient version of the older Windsor 90nm core. Both are currently the same price at Ebuyer.

The 65nm Brisbane core does seem to run a little cooler than the 90nm EE core at idle but a little warmer with a full sustained load.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... ne_10.html

[taidi]

Jennifer

You can get the board, cpu and memory all from Ebuyer. I'll be using the Crucial 512x2 1GB kit CT2KIT6464AA667 which is on Crucial's recommended list for this board.

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/home/index.html

Edit - just noticed you want the Corsair value 2gb kit which is also available from Ebuyer

http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/63623/rb/27458511668

or they have some cheapo Micron stuff (£60), certified by Crucial for this board

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/search/? ... 12864AA667

[taidi]

Finally the new 3,5 hard drives are really quiet and will be faster and cheaper than any 2,5, as the hard drive is the biggest bottleneck... I know that it's a bit of tradition here using lappie drives but there is actually no need for it in a desktop anymore. Go for the new drives from WD or Samsung. I would save the money and maybe get a SSD in the future.

Interesting point, and in fact many user reviews confirm that the new Samsung 3.5 drives are pretty quiet. Personally I'm still persuaded to my original choice of a Scorpio 120GB notebook drive for my new system because 3.5 drives still contribute significantly more heat to the system, however quiet they are.

If we're looking at passive cpu cooling the heat contribution of other components needs to be kept as low as possible which is where a notebook drive scores significantly.

Just my 2 cents worth but I appreciate the tip about the Samsung DVDRW drives.

[Jennifer]

taidi wrote:

You can get the board, cpu and memory all from Ebuyer.

Aah, missed that. Thanks...

but... I think I stopped looking at them after reading this page:
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Ebuyer_UK

which I must admit has thoroughly put me off them, seeing as the point of aiming to get the things all from the same place would purely be in case some of it didn't work, and that scenario seems to be their weakness...

[fri2219]

Cool 'n' Quiet does work on Linux, but you will probably have to configure it. Gooling "cnq linux" or variations seems to bring up a healthy number of hits; exact procedure will probably depend on your distribution.

Other spcr posters have done a much better job (than myself) of explaining things:
viewtopic.php?t=21189&sid=d6b6ef7d4d047 ... f884c39051
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article231-page1.html


There are several userspace solutions on for manipulating cnq in Linux, which include, but are not limited to:
rpm and deb: cpufreq (powernow-k8 cpufreq driver)
Gentoo: cpudyn

Almost every distro I've seen has some interface for it, but cnq has to be supported in your motherboard's BIOS. AMD compiles lists of which ones work. If it isn't supported, you'll have to fall back to ACPI.

Kernel support is already built-in if you're using a 2.6.x version.

If you're using 2.4 kernel source for a custom kernel, you can get the source for the kernel module here:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/Tec ... 06,00.html

Argh, url= isn't working. I need more coffee.

[taidi]

but... I think I stopped looking at them after reading this page:
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Ebuyer_UK

Did you notice the last adverse comment was almost a year ago ?

I can only say that my experience with Ebuyer over the last couple of years has been very good. They relocated last year, put in new IT systems and increased their CS staff, but I've no wish to sway your decision

[jojo4u]

For CnQ to work in Linux you don't even need a userspace deamon. Undervolting will not work, though.
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_ma ... cy_Scaling

Fan control will work if lm_sensors can change the pwm settings.

[jaganath]

Undervolting will not work, though.

that's OK, the motherboards I intend to use have undervolting in BIOS.

Fan control will work if lm_sensors can change the pwm settings.

can anyone give me a quick guide how to install lm_sensors in Ubuntu? I'm a total Linux noob.

[Max Slowik]

I wouldn't recommend getting an nVidia chipset over an AMD one, since AMD has better graphics and overall performance (like 10% faster across the board) with their 690-series.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813128043

No DVI, but you've got COM covered.

For that matter, I've got an AM2 rig (X2 6000+Scythe Mine) running right next to a C2D (E6600+stock cooler) computer, and the C2D computer runs cooler/quieter. Are you locked into AMD? The E6300 processors are really freakin' cheap, and Intel chipsets play nice with *nix and often have a lot of legacy support.

[Max Slowik]

By the way, I totally know you're across the pond and that Newegg isn't you're first choice of resellers, but I just wanted to show off the link.

[pelago]

I've got that motherboard (from within UK) and it definitely does come with the com port bracket. To use lm-sensors in Ubuntu you need to get the package, run sensors-detect from a command prompt, say Yes to everything. You can then use something like GkrellM or the Gnome Sensors Applet to view the temperatures/speeds. I'm not sure how you do automatic things like adjusting the fan speed based on temp - personally I just fix the fan speed with a Fan Mate 2.

By the way, although they may not sell everything you want, I recommend dabs.com as a very good UK supplier. They are particularly good at accepting returns under the 7-day Distance Selling Regulations, and as they have a web-based returns process you don't have to argue with a call centre. They'll even accept returns for items that you have opened and tested, despite their small print saying that they won't. With some items sold in non-resealable blister pack, this is very handy.

[Jennifer]

Hello all

So I ordered the stuff (except the Nexus fan which wasn't coming from the same supplier - I will start off with the original case fan for now) and the last bits arrived today!

Mostly the list is what I said in the post at the top of this thread, but I did find a 3600+ Brisbane CPU, and also ended up with a slightly different CD drive, just due to what was in stock.

Initial impression of the Antec case is: ooh, what a lovely design. Even just the way you open the side of it is so nicely designed compared to my old bog-standard one. I keep thinking it looks like a tiny fridge! (er, not that I think fridges are all that great looking normally or anything) Surprisingly heavy too, as is the Acoustifoam - the finished box is obviously going to weigh a lot.

Thanks again for the advice (even what I didn't take).

Will come back here and report later... wish me luck...

Jennifer

edit: just started a new thread for my latest question, about heat sinks and CPU warranties...