Advice for a Semi-High-End HTPC build. Lots of homework done

darkmachine · Post by **darkmachine** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:35 am

Finally after several months of research (and more study than I've cumulatively put into my degree), I've got the parts list for my semi-high-end HTPC. Itâ€™s important that this system is as quiet as I can make it (ambient noise in the TV room is surprisingly low) and use as little power as possible during idle (such unique goals huh?). I never intend to game on it. Straight to the good stuff:

CASE: Antec NSK2480

CPU: Core 2 Duo E6600

MOBO: Intel DG33TL

RAM: Corsair Value Select 2x1Gb 667 (PC5300)

GPU: Hightech ATI Radeon X1650Pro 256Mb iSilence

PSU: Seasonic S12 430W

HEATSINK: Thermalright XP-120, LGA775RM Adapter

FANS: 2x Nexus Realsilent 120mm, 1x 90mm

STORAGE: Western Digital Scorpio 2.5" 80Gb SATA (WD800BEVS)
2x Samsung Spinpoint 500Gb Sata HD501LJ

MEDIA: Pioneer DVR-212D

TUNER: Kworld PE310 Dual Hybrid

REMOTE: Xp Media Centre Remote

Already have Logitech diNovo Edge and Harmony 785

Points of interest

Case: Love the minimalist look. The 2400 has started to disappear and the 2480 is only $10 more, plus the firewire port may be handy some day.

CPU: I'm just an Intel guy, never used AMD. Was going to use the E6420, but the E6600 is about $60 more for 300mhz higher clockspeed and (practically) the same idle power usage. I did also consider the E6750 (which is cheaper and faster again) but with a higher FSB and lower multiplier, it canâ€™t idle nearly as low as the 6600 or 6420.

Mobo: Hard to find a mATX motherboard which will allow a dual slot GPU and leave space for the PCIe (although I'll still lose 1). The Dolby Certification is unique (saves on a sound card and good audio is a must) and the optical-out built into the backplate is nice. It has plenty of Sata ports and appears to have enough space around the RAM slots for the XP-120 (slot 0 must be filled). Also has 3 fan headers (although 2 of them are 3 pin, so i may need some Zalman Fanmates for noise control, but Iâ€™ll try BIOS first).

Ram: According to the Intel website, the DG33TL supports 667 and 800 DDR2 only (restrictive huh?), and i hear that Intel boards are fussy with ram brands, so Corsair seems a safe choice. RAM is cheap and 2GB is a Vista sweet spot.

GPU: Had many issues here as Iâ€™m living off a CRT for the next few months, yet I only want to replace the GPU (if I really have to) when we get a 1080p Plasma at some later stage. Nvidia is out of the picture due to overscan and driver issues, leaving a select few passive ATI cards. The X1650Pro seems to have enough kick to keep Vista Media Centre running smoothly and I should be able to duct the heatsink onto the 90mm Nexus to expel its heat from the case if need be. Fairly cheap at $130 too.

PSU: The Seasonic S12 430 has the lowest noise at low loads I could find (19db according to SPCR review if memory serves), lower than the 330W model. I'm probably being a little fussy as I've read that the stock NSK2480 one isn't bad, but every little bit counts.

Heatsink: I extensively researched this, and save for the promising Mini Ninja, the XP-120 has consistently good feedback, and I'll either strap a 120mm fan to the top, or duct one of the case fans to it, I'll have to experiment. I also considered the Silverstone NT01, but results seem to have been varying. I may have to 'prune' back the Northbridge heatsink on the mobo to make it fit.

Fans: Nexus fans are the workhorse of a quiet machine and so the choice here is fairly straight forward. Some fans have superseded it, but it's easily available (Australia doesn't really get Loons) and sample variance sounds reasonably reliable.

Storage: When budget allows I'll build a media server to hold everything, but for now the Spinpoints have got great forum feedback (for their size) and sample variance sounds good. The Scorpio also sounds like the quietest drive for the OS (and will remain the OS drive even after the Samsungs are eventually vacated to a media server). The Scorpio will have to be suspended in a 5.25" bay as there are only 2 3.5" slots and the 5.25 bay will get very little ventilation i suspect.

Media: Not much to say except Quietdrive has got good feedback from forum members, itâ€™s Sata (so the big ribbon can be avoided) and its 'unbranded' and looks visually appealing.

Tuner: Yet another area of difficulty. For dual digital tuners it seems that PCIe is the way to go for faster channel changes and better reliability. The DigitalNow Dual digital would be a good choice but several xpmediacentre readers report it disappearing from device manager. I have yet to see anyone with problems with the PE310.

Remote: Just getting this for the IR codes and receiver so I can run the harmony.

My apologies for the non-silence related information, I figure it helps explain why I chose certain components.

Any opinions, criticisms, corrections?

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:44 am

well I find your experience with video cards odd... every ATI card I've ever tried to connect to a TV has been simply HELL. whereas with nvidia I've never had any problems.

I would suggest a 8600 or 8500, or if you have to go with ATI, a x2600 or x2400.

and as for the cooler definitely use the Minja, I have a SI-120 (similar to the XP), and a friend is using the Minja (in the same case as me) and it simply performs much better in a low airflow environment.

Edit: for CPU I'd consider the e4400, as it is even cooler and less power sucking.

Another Edit: sorry, I'll have to take back my CPU-heatsink advice. although the minja is most likely better than the XP, it won't fit on that particular motherboard, I'm pretty sure. Cause the NB-heatsink is too tall.

Max Slowik · Post by **Max Slowik** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:08 pm

That's a bad GPU and CPU decision.

First and foremost, ATI makes better Vista drivers. They probably make the best Vista drivers I've ever used, and I've used a lot of drivers.

Second: ATI has better SD and HD acceleration...when it comes to the HD-series video cards. An X1000 card has passable video acceleration, but only SD hardware (no HD) and is overpriced.

In my HTPC I have an HD 2600 Pro, passive, which cost me $90. It's passive and a huge step up from the X1650 XT that it's replaced.

I also have an AMD X2 3800, and even that is overkill, except sometimes I like the speed at which it does encoding/transcoding. If you're not going to use the PC for anything but home-theater duties, just buy the cheapest processor that fits your socket. I'd still go dual-core, just because, why not?

Also, don't bother with the 2.5" drive, because Media Center doesn't like running on multiple partitions. It's just easier to stripe a few big drives into an array.

darkmachine · Post by **darkmachine** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:25 pm

Klankymen:
Yeah I initially was going to use the Gigabyte 8500GT and was very keen on it, but a short browse around www.xpmediacente.com.au revealed the many horror stories surrounding nVidia drivers and Vista, mainly for custom resolutions and refresh rates (ie. for CRT TVs like I have to use for the moment).

Max:
Thanks mate, good advice, I hadn't found that board, and it's almost the same price and supports HD. I'm still considering using the E6600 though, as I believe that helps keep the VMC menus (and thumbnails) snappy and smooth, or so I hear.

Also, don't bother with the 2.5" drive, because Media Center doesn't like running on multiple partitions. It's just easier to stripe a few big drives into an array.

I don't quite understand what you mean. I intend to use the 2.5" as C: and put all OS related material on that, and just point the watched folders to the two Spinpoints (most likely with static content on one, music, photos etc and TV recordings on the other). Does VMC have issues with watched folders not residing on the OS drive?

mimwdv · Post by **mimwdv** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:07 am

Sounds like it's going to be a nice system! To make it quiet I'd choose components that will generate as little heat as possible - which means fewer fans and also lower power consumption.

I'd stick with the 2.5" drives all the way rather than 3.5" - much quieter and less power hungry, and they also generate much less heat (and can cope in a hotter environment). There's a small performance hit, but nothing you'd notice in daily use.

Look at speedfan (free software) to control those fans - easier than Zalman fanmates. You could run the fans passive and get them to ramp up automatically only if the system heats up enough to warrant it.

As to the CPU I doubt you'll need a high end one for HTPC purposes - and you'll have to get rid of the heat it generates. My old Sempron 3100+ and Nvidia 6600 can play 1080i HDTV to my 1080P screen without a problem. The CPU is maxed out so it's pretty close, but it's not dropping frames. I'd look for a cool-running low-to-mid-range processor - esp if you've got a GPU that'll do most of the work (which the 6600 won't). New dual core AMDs run cooler (and for less $$$) so that'd be my first choice.

Not sure about that 1650, but I'd have a look at Xbitlabs and see what runs cool and low-powered while still having enough grunt for HD (given your constraints). Depending on how long till you buy your 1080p plasma (and the quality of your current TV) you want a cheap card running at lower resolution now as a temporary measure, and buy a better one when you get the plasma rather than get one now that will do it all. It might not end up being much more expensive given that prices are continually dropping, and HDTV/HDMI/HDCP are only just coming in.

I've got the S12 430 in my e6400 machine, and it's almost totally silent, but it still annoys me enough (less than 2ft from my head when watching TV) that I'm going to swap it out for a PicoPSU shortly.

You mention the Dolby, good audio and optical out. I could be wrong, but if you're using optical out to an amp, does the sound card quality make much difference? I thought it was just passing the digital signal across to the amp, which then did all the processing. If so, it might make your choice of boards easier.

darkmachine · Post by **darkmachine** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:42 am

I would like to stick to 2.5" drives, but they just don't have the capacity to hold much at the moment. If (read when) I build a media server the only drive will be a 2.5" and that will be fine.

Based on this advice I have revised my CPU to an E4500 which has the same TDP as the E4400, but runs at 2.2GHz.

Ive also looked more into the video card and the Asus Radeon HD 2400PRO seems a good option, as its fairly cheap and does TV out, and theoretically supports (and offloads) HD content, but again it sounds a little shaky at the moment.
The good thing is a small passive heatsink usually spells a cool card.
I didn't find a 2600 based card that looked like it would fit in the NSK2400 as they all seem to have wild heatpipes over the top.

mimwdv · Post by **mimwdv** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:12 am

Yeah, I guess availability of drives depends on how much you're planning to store vs $$$ to spend. I run a 250GB 3.5" and a 120GB 2.5" drive, and an external 300GB 3.5" for backup and photo storage (only runs once a week when I'm actually backing up, will be replaced soon) and it's plenty - but I don't have much music and transcode TV to Xvid for anything I plan to keep more than a few days, and burn stuff to DVD as soon as possible. Movies I author straight away, TV gets Xvid-ed, when I gather a DVD full I burn it.

I've just found it makes such a huge difference to noise/heat/power usage in my systems (even with the 3.5 drives suspended) that I've sworn off 3.5" ones. Do you have any feeling about how many GB you'll be adding to your collection each month? At any one time I've got about 200GB in my system in various stages of processing/storage, but if I go away for any period of time I'll be in trouble - I need to keep processing to keep up with it all, LOL.

The good news is that 2.5" drives are getting MUCH bigger and cheaper REALLY fast at the moment

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:57 am

darkmachine wrote:I didn't find a 2600 based card that looked like it would fit in the NSK2400 as they all seem to have wild heatpipes over the top.

Good news for you, this one seems to fit, according to this post.

I think the e4500 is a good decision, considering the idle draws of the e4300 and e4400 being 4 and 5 Watts respectively, it probably will be in th e 6~7Watt range idle.

EDIT: I'm assuming you're in the states, so here's a newegg link

darkmachine · Post by **darkmachine** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:09 am

Thanks Klanky,

though it looks like that card barely fits into the case (seeing as Mikey had to modify his case to fit almost the same heatsink). I think I should be safe with a 2400 as they all look like they would produce a lot less heat and I won't have any issues fitting it in.

Edit: After looking at the Mobo a little more closely, something tells me no GPU with a substantial heat sink on the back will fit:

Link to a bigger perspective picture:
http://www.intel.com/products/motherboa ... 3tl_lg.jpg

There's got to be less than a centimeter between the super tall Northbridge HS and the PCIe slot, so any passive 2600 is a no go.

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:27 am

True. and for the same reason the mini-ninja won't fit, unless the NB-heatsink is less than 3.8cm tall (which it doesn't look).

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:10 am

Don't do the 2400pro. Stick with the passive 2600pro. Gigabyte has one available at newegg, though I ordered mine awhile ago and it still has not shipped. I was an early adopter of the 2400pro and I can say with certainty that you will be better off with a 2600pro than nearly any other card, besides the 8600GT of which I don't know as much. Sounds like you put together a nice machine. I'm glad you listened to us about the processor. So many on other forums overbuild their HTPCs to the point of it getting rediculous. I run single core CPUs in all my HTPCs because they are cooler and I don't have speed problems even with HD-DVD now.

To the guy who's 3100+ is maxed with HD content, I think you might have something wrong with your software because my Sempron 2600+ doesn't even use 50% cpu on 1080i. You should check your codecs with Graphedit and make sure hardware acceleration is on. Not only are you not getting acceleration, but you are missing out on the excelent hardware deinterlacing. Also, turn on 3:2 pulldown in the catalyst driver.

darkmachine · Post by **darkmachine** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:40 am

What issues were you having with the 2400Pro autoboy? This card seems perfectly adequate for a media center, so I assume you had usage issues?

I admit the gigabyte is tempting, but with that heatsink one would think it produces a lot more heat than the 2400 so I wonder whether it's worthwhile (although at least it fits).

...I can say with certainty that you will be better off with a 2600pro than nearly any other card...

...I ordered mine awhile ago and it still has not shipped

Specifically in what way are you referring to? I certainly don't undermine your opinion, but I'm a little curious how you can be so sure if you haven't got it yet and had a chance to try it out? I'm just trying to figure out whether it's worth the extra money, that's all.

After some further digging into the C2D E4xxx range I'm very confident that the E4500 is a good choice, so good advice on that, cheers

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:59 pm

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I have a 2400pro. I was a first adopter and was very active on the avsforum chat for this card. It turns out that the 2400pro is not powerful enough to do mpeg2 decoding with all the eye candy, and the drivers from ATI disable mpeg2 acceleration completely. There is a workaround: add DXVA_NOHDDECODE = 0 into the registry that enables mpeg2 acceleration, but it cannot do adaptive deinterlacing and it defaults to bob and weave. The 2400pro also has registry values that limit the UVD to specific h254 and vc-1 content and you have to zero those values to get it to work. Ultimately, I got mine to work with these hacks, but I ordered the gigabyte 2600pro and it just arrived yesterday.

The 2600pro has mpeg2 acceleration enabled, and is not limited for the UVD on h264 and VC-1 like the 2400pro. It scores 100% on the HD HQV tests and performs quite well. I installed mine yesterday and I can get it to play well with Media Player and cyberlink player, but it gives me problems with SageTV. I think these are SageTV related problems so you should be fine with a 2600pro. Yes, the 2600pro puts out more heat, but not that much more that it should make a significant barrier to buy. You can try the 2400pro if you are into registry hacks, but I recomend the 2600pro if you want an AMD card. If you want Nvidia the 8600GT is the pick but I can't comment on stability. Right now there are no good XP drivers out for it so that might make a difference to you.

darkmachine · Post by **darkmachine** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:47 pm

Ah gotcha. I wonder why they produce such a limited card seeing as it's aimed squarely at users like you and I?

I intend to use Vista Media Centre so acceleration incompatibility shouldn't be much of an issue, but I'm using a CRT for the moment, which rules out anything nVidia.

Thanks for the feedback, hope your new card has less issues

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:50 pm

Just spent 3 hours working on this 2600pro and I finally got it working in Sage. It worked great in Media Player Classic. I finally got it working by setting the deinterlacing to adaptive and bypassing the better motion adaptive and vector adaptive deinterlacing. Picture looks fine now but...this is exactly the same as what I had with my 2400pro. I was hoping the faster card could handle vector adaptive in sagetv with FSE and VMR9 enabled.

Well, I guess I'll have to keep trying. I hope they release some new drivers. Folks seem to have better luck in Vista with this card so you should fare better.

plympton · Post by **plympton** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:21 pm

Max Slowik wrote:That's a bad GPU and CPU decision.

Also, don't bother with the 2.5" drive, because Media Center doesn't like running on multiple partitions. It's just easier to stripe a few big drives into an array.

Not sure this is good advice - I've got XP MCE running off a cheap 40GB 5400 RPM 2.5" drive (boot), and all the recordings are on a 500GB 3.5" drive (Samsung 501LJ).

The setup is great - when the boot was on the 3.5" drive, it was always tick-tick-ticking - drove me NUTS! Something about temporary files being written to it. Anyway, with the 2 seperate drives, all is well - I can back up the Boot drive easily, and if it ever fails just pop in a new drive and off you go.

-Dan