Fanless HTPC from scratch - starting point?

silenceseeker · Post by **silenceseeker** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:27 am

I would like to build my own fanless HTPC from scratch (I wouldn't mind buying one, but what's available on the market is way to expensive for me).

I would like it to be on one hand as powerful as possible (to play/record video) but on the other hand as quiet as possible.

I know that I cannot totally avoid harddrive (and DVD-RW drive) noise.

But I would like to avoid the CPU fan and hopefully power supply fan. I believe that if Denon is able to create a 360W surround receiver (AVR-1601) without a single fan, then it must be possible to create a PC (that requires less than 360W) that is fanless.

My only problem is that I don't know where to start. Also, I would like to spend as little time as possible on experimentation and custom fitting. Ideally, there would be an article somewhere that would list the exact components and instructions for how to build such an HTPC.

Is there such a resource? If so, could you point me to it?

If not, how do you suggest to go about this?

Thanks!
Sam

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:40 am

crucial information like your budget and what performance you need (HD video?) are missing;without this we cannot make any useful suggestions.

silenceseeker · Post by **silenceseeker** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:09 am

jaganath wrote:crucial information like your budget and what performance you need (HD video?) are missing;without this we cannot make any useful suggestions.

Thank you for bringing this into my attention, jaganath. I would say that my budget is $1000 (or so) and I would definitely love to watch HD video.

If HD video is not possible within this budget, then could you tell me what kind of budget do I need for HD video? I would then be able to see whether I can adjust the budget or... give up HD for now.

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:45 am

I would recommend you not try to make one fanless.

Very low speed fans are inaudible, and move much more air than convection alone. If you want easy, you want fast, and you want quiet, I'd get the SPCR media PC from endpcnoise. A couple nexus fans @5V you won't be able to hear 1m away.

Also for as quiet as possible you will want a laptop 2.5" hard drive.

It is possible to make fanless computers, but they won't be able to run fast enough for HD video.

walkingjohn · Post by **walkingjohn** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:59 am

I haven't found any standard solution here for completely fanless (convection cooled). Basically, a very low-wattage system with big heatsinks (Ninja for cpu, HR-05 for chipset) will run this way if not enclosed and not in the same area as other heat sources like the power supply.

My biostar tf7025 + X2 3600+ (undervolted in rmclock) runs like this--there's just an emergency fan (mobo controlled, but never runs) and aluminum mesh in place of the mid-tower case top and sides (optical drive placement is a challenge--I made a separate compartment at the bottom so as not to block rising air). The similar 7050 would apparently do for an htpc--look for amourek's 7025 review and thread.

Main challenge, then, is setting up the case, particularly if you are concerned with aesthetics.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:51 am

I'd get the SPCR media PC from endpcnoise.

yes, that's a great setup, although maybe the OP should go for Intel CPU for more performance, for example E6750 + Mini Ninja + mATX 775 motherboard (Asrock ConRoe 1333-DVI/H? Foxconn G33M?), Noctua fans, and Corsair VX450W for PSU, HD2400 Pro for GFX? not sure what GFX card you need for HD video, VGA forum can advise.

JoeWPgh · Post by **JoeWPgh** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:20 pm

I have to agree with djkest. If you root around the forums, you'll discover that many people here rate their HDDs as louder than their fans. Aim for cool with low speed/airflow fans. You can get them to the point where it's highly unlikely you'd ever hear them in a media situation. Who knows? You may get your system to the point where you can then go back and get rid of the fans. But I suspect that once you get them to the point you can't hear them, you won't care if they're there.

Another thing to keep in mind is that horizontal HTPC cases tend to be very cramped. There's not not a lot of air in there for your components to heat easily and quickly. In general, you've got to move that air out of the case faster, because it heats faster. This usually means louder (or hotter). I don't mean this as a hard and fast rule, but in general, towers will be easier to keep both cool and quiet.

silenceseeker · Post by **silenceseeker** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:02 am

walkingjohn wrote:look for amourek's 7025 review and thread.

Are you referring to this thread, entitled "My Biostar TA690G Review: mATX Overclocking Gem"?

I noticed that no one actually recommends a fanless system. This is interesting, considering the name of this site (silent PC review). Is this because "the cost does not justify the extra silence"? Or is it because it is impossible to support HD without a fan?

I know that the hard drive makes more noise than the fan. However, I wanted to keep noise sources to bare minimum. Who knows, perhaps one day I will replace the HDD with a solid state drive which will make it really silent.

Now, for the sake of pursuing my purist goal: Is there an article out there that describes how to make a completely fanless HTPC? (playing video, not only audio). If it is possible, of course. Let us ignore costs for now.

Thanks,
Sam

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:36 am

Let us ignore costs for now.

of course, if cost is no object it's not a problem; buy an mCubed HFX Classic Heatsink Case, Silverstone ST30NF fanless PSU or mCubed HFX Mini External PSU 280W EF28, get the heatpipe kits and put it together. The heatpipes can cool CPU up to 120W, GFX up to 100W (? not sure).

Moogles · Post by **Moogles** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:49 am

silenceseeker wrote: I noticed that no one actually recommends a fanless system. This is interesting, considering the name of this site (silent PC review). Is this because "the cost does not justify the extra silence"? Or is it because it is impossible to support HD without a fan?

A fanless PC, particularly one that only sees HTPC duty is entirely possible, but you'll need a case designed for that purpose. You can't buy a regular case, put in some big CPU/northbridge/GPU coolers and a fanless PSU and expect it to work (for long). Adding 1 or 2 very slow moving sleeve bearing fans to such a setup would make it work (very well and very quietly in fact), but it wouldn't be fanless.

I know that the hard drive makes more noise than the fan. However, I wanted to keep noise sources to bare minimum. Who knows, perhaps one day I will replace the HDD with a solid state drive which will make it really silent.

A 2.5" drive in a Scythe Quiet Drive (the one for notebook drives) would be virtually inaudible. Of course, a SSD would be TRULY inaudible.

Now, for the sake of pursuing my purist goal: Is there an article out there that describes how to make a completely fanless HTPC? (playing video, not only audio). If it is possible, of course. Let us ignore costs for now.

Here's one: http://aitoribarra.com/2007/07/05/build ... -list.aspx

Aside from mCubed and their HFX line, you could also look into Hush PC and Zalman's TNN300. Thermalright has also announced a line of heatsink cases (HSC) but there hasn't been a lot of info released yet.

Personally, I'd go with Jaganath's first suggestion. It's more reliable, cheaper, more expandable, etc than any fanless setup could ever be.

walkingjohn · Post by **walkingjohn** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:24 am

silenceseeker wrote:
walkingjohn wrote:look for amourek's 7025 review and thread.
Are you referring to this thread, entitled "My Biostar TA690G Review: mATX Overclocking Gem"?

That might be an option, but this one may be better. The claims there suggest the onboard graphics with a slightly underclocked 3600+ handle HD fine. I'm not a video guy, though, so I don't know if the quality is what you'd want or not.

But I'm reasonably certain there's no article around on how to make a fanless htpc--and like others have been saying, a slow-running fan or two will be inaudible beneath the hard-drive noise and will move way more air than convection. Unless fanless (& diskless) is a project you want to pursue for its own sake, my guess is it won't be worth it for you. If you do want to pursue it, you're looking at either a heatsink case like the mCubed one, or significant DIY with no guarantee of success.

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:42 pm

The fact remains, high quality good fans aren't that loud. A nexus or Noctua at 5V is under 20 dB, which is barely measureable with expensive equipment. That is very near to silent even with your ear right next to it. Now put this inside a case and step back 2 feet, and I guarentee you will not hear it. This fan still moves about 10x as much air as natural convection.

HD video playback requires beefy hardware. Beefy hardware makes heat.

Also, keep in mind that hard drives will make noise, so you'd have to have a solid state disc and network storage to eliminate that noise. The power supply also makes noise, although if you went with a fanless pico PSU that would be nearly silent.

Lastly, even solid state electronics make noise sometimes, a whine, a squeal, whatever you want to call it.

If a fan can be silent, why insist on no fans?

silenceseeker · Post by **silenceseeker** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:18 pm

djkest wrote:If a fan can be silent, why insist on no fans?

Because the phrase "a fan that can be silent" is an oxymoron?

BTW, can someone please explain to me where is the logic in marketing a case based on 60mm fan as an HTPC case? AFAIK, the smaller the fan, the noisier it is. Thus, if one is willing to compromise on an HTPC system with a fan, shouldn't it be at least 120mm?

I am referring to the nMEDIAPC HTPC 100BA on sale by Newegg.

Thank you very much all who responded so far.

Sam

JoeWPgh · Post by **JoeWPgh** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:43 pm

The logic is that in a media environment, your noise floor is significantly higher. You've got sound happening that you would not have otherwise.
I see the logic of it, but remain unconvinced.
As for the case you cite, I saw the price and figured it to be a stock clearing. Media cases have matured since that case was introduced. It's a dinosaur. It's day has passed and retailers are getting something for it while they still can.
Expect to see more such clearances. Dual 60 fans are simply not acceptable.

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:47 pm

silenceseeker --

The funny thing is that some fanless devices are much noisier than comparative devices that are audibly, obviously fan cooled. Case in point: I have a fanless PSU in the lab that measures well under 20 dBA/1m, yet the noise it makes is instantly audible and annoying, and the audibility gets worse the longer you're exposed to it. It's a 800~1000Hz pure tone caused by resonating capcitors or transformers. In contrast, many 20~22 dBA/1m 120mm fan PSUs are initially audible, yet become inaudible within a couple of minutes.

Silent does not mean fanless. Silence, from a human perception point of view, occurs when you don't hear it. The fact is, I work around computers that have fans, that make noise, yet most of the time, I don't hear them. Why? Because the noise they make is unobtrusive, and thus fades very quickly into the background.

The main benefit of a fan is far cheaper and much better cooling. Period. There's simply no contest in cooling between a good forced air design and one that relies only on convection. Amazingly, a component that's audible without a fan (because of hum, buzz and other low level but audible / inconstant tonalities) can actually be made to sound quieter with the addition of a smooth quiet fan that adds a bit of masking pink noise.

Please read this piece: What is a "Silent" Computer?

btw, I agree with you that the nMedia case is not good. Not because it sports a 60mm fan, per se, but because I've examined it closely first hand and found it to be flimsy, with poor airflow design. They submitted a sample which we ended up uninterested in reviewing. Too many negatives.

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:45 pm

Why do people think that HD video requires beefy hardware? Yes, 5 years ago when it first came out it took beefy hardware, but now a Sempron at 1.6Ghz and an AMD 690 motherboard can handle most HD just fine. The only exception is HD-DVD and BluRay, and you can still handle those with the simple addition of a ATI HD2400pro. If you build a computer that stutters on HD playback, it is likely the drivers, your playback software, or your decoders that are not configured properly, and throwing new, faster hardware at it only lightens your wallet.

Once again, like everyone else, I'll stress that you should not build a fanless HTPC unless you are looking for a major project. Fanned does not mean audible.

lung · Post by **lung** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:55 pm

I'm personally all for completely fanless systems. Though I agree it is a headache. I spent a lot of time and money trying to figure it out.

What I will tell you is that the only easy off the shelf solution that wont cost to much or require hard to find parts that 'just works' is the via c7 fanless systems. You can put them in a mini-itx case that has a fanless psu and power brick then put in a laptop drive and you have a fanless system with out any of the hassle. They also have acceleration for video, at least in windows.

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:05 pm

The Via systems won't handle HD video. It would be dumb to build a HTPC that can't play HD video now.