Two OS's in one box, or two boxes (for DAW)?

amyhughes · Post by **amyhughes** » Tue May 13, 2008 1:12 pm

I can't decide if I want to build one machine with two operating systems (two copies of WinXP) or build two separate machines. Here's the situation...

I've never been able to get low-latency audio working on any machine I've built. Part of the current problem may be my motherboard (Gigabyte P35 boards have audio latency problems, but mine is minor), part may be all the devices I have connected, and part may be all the crapware that Adobe, Microsoft and Apple leave running. Conventional wisdom is that it's better to have a digital audio workstation built just for audio and not install anything else on it. Time to follow this advice.

Plan one:

Built a new machine just for audio. I'd move my audio card to it and use on-board audio in the old machine.

Plan two:

Replace my motherboard and continue using it for everything, including audio, but run audio apps from a separate copy of Windows on a separate hard drive (I have a second, legal copy). To use it as a music workstation I'd re-boot, enter BIOS and change the boot priority to the audio hard drive. To do work and play games I'd switch to the original drive.

Plan one has the advantage of having the greatest chance of success. Plan two has the advantage of saving space and money, both of which are tight here.

I'm going to have to use a KVM switch, anyway, since I have a third machine in the room, and I already own one, so yet another machine does not complicate things much. It just takes up precious space. Having to switch OS's by rebooting isn't a big hardship, either, since I tend to work on music in long, infrequent sessions.

I have an Antec P182 coming that will allow me to load up lots of suspended *and* enclosed drives. If I went with option 2 I'd suspend two drives in aluminum cooling cases in the upper bay with the optical drive, and suspend a third in the space under that bay (with the cage that's there removed). I'd install the drives I'm going to use for backup in the lower PSU chamber, but would leave them disconnected most of the time. I'm sure there's someplace else in that case for a fourth, enclosed drive. That's two OS drives, two data drives, and backup drives.

If I went with plan one the 182 would contain the audio workstation, with the need for one fewer drives.

Plan 2, a combined audio/general purpose computer with 2 OS's, would contain:

Antec P182
Abit P35 board (probably not the Pro)
4G RAM
E8400 with Ninja
Enermax MODU82+ 425W
WD GP 500G drive (general purpose system drive)
WD 160G drive (audio system drive)
WD 160G drive (audio data drive)
WD 640G drive (audio data drive)
two other, normally disconnected drives
Gigabyte 8600GT, fanless
M-Audio Audiophile 24/96
Samsung DVD writer
Any of Nexus and Scythe 120mm fans
WinXP Pro, full version

Thanks to the spcr drawings I'd only have to buy the 640G drive, Abit motherboard and three drive cooler cases. I might spring for a graphics card upgrade, probably a 9600GT with Accelero.

Plan two would contain:

General purpose machine -

Antec Sonata
Sparkle 250W 80+ PSU
Gigabyte P35 motherboard
E8400 with Ninja
4G RAM
WD GP 500G drive
Gigabyte 8600GT, fanless
Samsung DVD writer
WinXP Pro, full version

Audio workstation -

Antec P182
Enermax MODU82+ 425W
Abit P35 board (probably not the Pro)
4G RAM
E6750, modest OC, with TRUE
WD 160G drive (audio system drive)
WD 160G drive (audio data drive)
WD 640G drive (audio data drive)
two other, normally disconnected drives
ATI HD2400Pro (or maybe 3450?)
M-Audio Audiophile 24/96
Samsung DVD writer
WinXP Home, OEM version

To build the second machine I'd have to buy the motherboard, TRUE, RAM, DVD, 640G drive, three drive cooler cases, and video card. I'd buy a quad-core processor some time in the future.

Any thoughts on either strategy? Any problems I haven't
anticipated? I'm leaning toward the one-system solution.

Licaon · Post by **Licaon** » Tue May 13, 2008 1:27 pm

more machines using http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ and not KVMs

Lliam · Post by **Lliam** » Tue May 13, 2008 1:53 pm

I've got a dual boot audio DAW running Sonar on XP32bit.

I have the Sonar DAW on a separate 80gb samsung HDD and a 320gb audio drive. This is a clean XP install with all the windows cr4p removed.

On a third drive is XP with a virus scanner, EAC, foobar2000 etc.

Three drives is part of my plan to go triple boot with Kubuntu 8.04 at some point

(There are one or two things on Windows I can't dump yet)

I have a separate server holding all my flac files with slimserver and Samba running. EAC is broken on ubuntu 8.04 and I haven't got the time to fix it

Dual boot is the way to go (imho)- much better on the hardware count, plus you have a good card for audio playback.

Oh there definitely is an issue with P35 gigabyte boards with low latency audio
People have had some success with older bios versions.

I haven't run into huge problems with my E8400/P35 DS3 v2.1/2gb Geil/M-audio delta 66 so far.

Have fun

amyhughes · Post by **amyhughes** » Tue May 13, 2008 2:35 pm

Licaon wrote:more machines using http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ and not KVMs

The second and third machine will not have their own monitors. The unmentioned fourth machine (a Mac Mini) uses a 27" LCD TV. The two or three PCs need to share a monitor.

amyhughes · Post by **amyhughes** » Tue May 13, 2008 2:43 pm

Lliam wrote:Three drives is part of my plan to go triple boot with Kubuntu 8.04 at some point

I have Windows and Ubuntu on one disk already. So I'd have three operating systems on two disks.

Oh there definitely is an issue with P35 gigabyte boards with low latency audio
People have had some success with older bios versions.

My system looks exactly like the first graph in that thread. It's not as bad as some people have it, so I'm not prepared to say it's causing my problems, but it's worth replacing the motherboard to see if that helps.

I haven't run into huge problems with my E8400/P35 DS3 v2.1/2gb Geil/M-audio delta 66 so far.

My E8400/P35 DS3 v2.1/4gb G.Skill/M-audio audiophile 24/96 does about 30ms latency. Same as my previous P4 system, and same as my G4 Mac Mini running a USB interface. At my skill level I don't need 4ms, but something 15-ish would be delightful compared to where I've been.

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Tue May 13, 2008 5:55 pm

Plan 2, a combined audio/general purpose computer with 2 OS's, would contain:

Antec P182
Abit P35 board (probably not the Pro)
4G RAM
E8400 with Ninja
Enermax MODU82+ 425W
WD GP 500G drive (general purpose system drive)
WD 160G drive (audio system drive)
WD 160G drive (audio data drive)
WD 640G drive (audio data drive)
two other, normally disconnected drives
Gigabyte 8600GT, fanless
M-Audio Audiophile 24/96
Samsung DVD writer
Any of Nexus and Scythe 120mm fans
WinXP Pro, full version

this machine is similar in ways to my rig, although mine isn't as powerful. I was actually talking to the chief engineer today about my computer, my future with recording, and what is and isn't true about DAW's. I can imagine half the world arguing this with me, but a fast expensive machine will edit no better than a budget build. your budget should be on the soundcard, graphics and RAM, not processor or optical drives.

I've used a Dell XPS 710 in school to do editing, and it barely hits 5% load while recording with Adobe Audition 2. It's a quad core machine with 4GB of RAM and an 8800GTS 512MB graphics card. Here at home I run Adobe Audition 3 on a Pentium D 940 with 3GB of RAM. The main difference between the XPS and my machine is that I have an Audiophile 24/96, at my school, there's a Creative X-Fi. To the "untrained" ear, you may not notice the difference, but record something at 24/96, then play it back on generic onboard audio. The difference will be massive.

I've never been able to get low-latency audio working on any machine I've built. Part of the current problem may be my motherboard (Gigabyte P35 boards have audio latency problems, but mine is minor), part may be all the devices I have connected, and part may be all the crapware that Adobe, Microsoft and Apple leave running. Conventional wisdom is that it's better to have a digital audio workstation built just for audio and not install anything else on it.

I don't agree with that entirely. Adobe doesn't bloat up a system at all, in fact I run Audition 2 on a Dual Pentium III Xeon computer, and the only lag is in graphics, which I can disable. Not keeping a clean registry, or a defragmented drive will do a lot more to a computer than software can. you can easily pull a single OS build that's a DAW, but you need to be proper in how you organize, defragment, and clean your computers registry.

Audio doesn't have large requirements, its not batch rendering like videos. It's all plugins, its nearly all in the drive space, the RAM and your ears.

croddie · Post by **croddie** » Thu May 15, 2008 9:47 pm

I don't see the necessity of all this.
I would consult forums for other pro audio companies e.g. EMU, RME to see the latency their cards give with current drivers.

As long as your non-audio applications are not running they won't cause any problems.
Have a fast computer, set it up correctly (lots of advice at KVR forum, not sure how much of it is old wives tales) with the right allocations to different drives and you should be fine.

doodah · Post by **doodah** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:39 am

You wouldn't really need to run two separate copies of Windows. Instead, create a new user and only run your music software. Remember to disablef your internet connection so you can turn off anti-virus and firewall apps. You can always turn them on if you have to connect to update your DAW software.

I agree with searching the DAW forums. You might check into using ASIO drivers, they're supposedly better with latency. I saw it mentioned on the Sonar forums over at Cakewalk. I haven't messed with latency much, yet, since I haven't needed to use a lot of tracks or plug-ins.

Good luck.

ame · Post by **ame** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:42 am

Quote:
Oh there definitely is an issue with P35 gigabyte boards with low latency audio
People have had some success with older bios versions.

My system looks exactly like the first graph in that thread. It's not as bad as some people have it, so I'm not prepared to say it's causing my problems, but it's worth replacing the motherboard to see if that helps.

there has been a long discution on the Digidesign Protools forum specifically about Gigabyte P35 motheboeard with regards to audio latencey.
As a previous owner of GA P35 DS3P I was having lots of that going on until I swaped to Asus.
Recenlty people have been getting latest bios fixes (f4) to work in most cases (some recieved a beta BIOS directly from Gigabyte)

A good prooven tester is the DPC latency checker:

http://www.thesycon.de/eng/free_download.shtml

download and run, If you are getting anything other than flat green line there are issues with audio streaming. Gigabyte mobos typically got a stair step patern with latencys of up to 1 MILIsecond and much more with other hardware installed. For the referance really good latency would be up to 50 MICRO seconds.
here is the link to the actual thread:

http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php? ... =7&fpart=8

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Fri May 16, 2008 6:00 am

the Audio Latency is problem if you will use intgrated sound system in Gigabyte boards. However is it still present if you have discrete soundcard?

ame · Post by **ame** » Fri May 16, 2008 6:27 am

thejamppa,

I see you have a P35 Gigabyte mobo on your gaming rig.
It would be helpful if you download the DPC latency checker:

http://www.thesycon.de/eng/free_download.shtml

and then eithr report back with the numbers or post a screenshot.

FYI anything in the yello or red is really really bad, if your in the green but its anything but very flat and low you are still bad.

In my exeriance this small util has become a must for testing DAWs, HTPCs or any preformance system for that matter.

here is a direct link
http://www.thesycon.de/dpclat/dpclat.exe

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Fri May 16, 2008 7:59 am

Minumum is 3 and maximum was 1031, test interval 971.Yeah, what I do not know is what DPC latency actually does. All I know it should not be like this. But since I do not do else but game my P35 rig I doubt I have anything to worry about DPC...

However I use Soundblaster live 24-bit sound card and not the mainboard's own soundcard. The reason is simple: As much peoples use intgrated soundcards, I have had more problems with them so I use all my builds separate soundcard as it has become a habbit of mine.

amyhughes · Post by **amyhughes** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

thejamppa wrote:the Audio Latency is problem if you will use intgrated sound system in Gigabyte boards. However is it still present if you have discrete soundcard?

The only people who are likely to notice will all be using sound cards, PCI or external. I don't think there is ASIO support for on-board audio. You won't have trouble with games.

amyhughes · Post by **amyhughes** » Fri May 16, 2008 1:22 pm

croddie wrote:As long as your non-audio applications are not running they won't cause any problems.

Well, that's the problem. If you've installed Creative Suite and iTunes, there are apps running even when you aren't using those products. Just about everything these days wants to leave a task running, install in your system tray, take over file type handling, etc. Software makers treat your machine like a toy. If you're having trouble (like audio latency issues) it's wise to reduce the number of variables you have to investigate by denying access to all this crapware.

Apparently, my machine patiently waits for me to plug in an iphone. I don't own an iphone.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:36 pm

I've not installed creative suit nor iTunes. I usually install drivers only and not extra's. Less exessive stuff, more reliable my computer works. However this is good thing to know. Let's hope Gigabyte can solve this issue, even though its not a great matter to me.

I chose my motherboard, as GA-P35-DS3L had gotten so many good reviews around web, newegg and in here aswell. So far it works beautifully but my use is very limit so its short commings may not never be an issue in my use.

So far in few hard gaming sessions with Soundblaster there have been no issues of stability nor audio problems any kind. Only problem I had recently was that painkiller did not liked dual cores. But that's software problem and handy freeware solved my problems.

I probably install F.E.A.R. and Far Cry soon to torture my machine bit newer and more demanding games than Painkiller or Red Faction is. But so far my Gigabyte P35 has worked wonderfully, even it appareantly had DPC latency issue. Let's hope Gigabyte get's realeased soon Bios that will erase it.

P.S. Sorry for partially hijacking your thread amuhughes.

ame · Post by **ame** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:57 pm

Minumum is 3 and maximum was 1031, test interval 971.Yeah, what I do not know is what DPC latency actually does. All I know it should not be like this. But since I do not do else but game my P35 rig I doubt I have anything to worry about DPC...

However I use Soundblaster live 24-bit sound card and not the mainboard's own soundcard. The reason is simple: As much peoples use intgrated soundcards, I have had more problems with them so I use all my builds separate soundcard as it has become a habbit of mine.

Thanks for taking the time to do the test. This probably will not be somthing you have even noticed. You seem to have the same problem as with other Gigabyte P35 users. There is however a BIOS fix for this issue.

Games use directX driver that seems to be less demanding in terms of latency. ASIO and other drivers used by DAWs need to stream and process multiple audio files and record/playback with lowest amout of delay possible. typical ASIO in to out latency is 10-11ms, this valu can be controled within certain DAWs by setting a sample buffer size.

Using the DPC tester, systems that show latency spikes over 500 microseconds are typically not able to reach the very low latencys required for recording and monitoring properly.
A properly configures DAW would show 200 microseconds or less.