GTX260 System Opinions

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Nik7304
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GTX260 System Opinions

Post by Nik7304 » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:54 am

Thinking of doing a major tech refresh from current P4/6600GT system. I stuck these bits together and just wanted to get people's opinions on where I'm missing something or overdoing it:

PSU: BFG 800W
Motherboad: nForce 750i SLI
CPU: Core2Duo E8500
RAM: 4x2GB DDR2
GPU: nVidia GTX260
HD: WD Raptor 150GB
OS: Vista Home Premium

Other bits are from the old PC, Antec Sonata II case, optical drives, etc.

Want to mainly do legacy gaming (Oblivion, Combat Flight Simulator, IL2 Sturmovik, Dawn of War, Call of Duty), some new (Mass Effect, upcoming Battle of Britain sim), and some video editing of home movies. System should be good for 5-6 years.

Good? Bad? Missing the point? Any reply is much appreciated.

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Re: GTX260 System Opinions

Post by Elvellon » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:19 am

Nik7304 wrote:PSU: BFG 800W
Too high wattage, don't know about the brand. Why not any of the SPCR recommended ones that are quiet at about 300W?
Nik7304 wrote:Motherboad: nForce 750i SLI
Pointless IMO. Something on the P35/P45 chipset will do.
Nik7304 wrote: CPU: Core2Duo E8500
RAM: 4x2GB DDR2
GPU: nVidia GTX260
Good.
Nik7304 wrote: HD: WD Raptor 150GB
If it's the old raptor, pointless since modern drives are just as fast and a lot bigger. Not pointless if it's the 150GB VelociRaptor variant.
Anyway, I assume that you have another HDD or are content with 150 GB :).
Nik7304 wrote:Antec Sonata II case
Don't know. Maybe the GTX260 won't fit and/or the heat will be too much for 1 exhaust fan + PSU. Let's wait for other replies.
Nik7304 wrote:some new... System should be good for 5-6 years.
Most games nowadays are multiplatform. The GTX 260 will handle current generation games fine, but I have no idea about next generation (starting like 2011-12). Maybe you can get a quadcore (Q9xxx) and a cheaper graphics card and be ready to upgrade the latter at some point in the future. Though I don't know if 9800GTX(+) is quiet or not.
[size=67]Spring 2008 build with upgrade. Intel Core 2 Duo E8200, Scythe Ninja B w/Slipstream @ ~ 700-960 (too high), Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, 2x2 GB DDR2-800 CL5 Samsung, nVidia GeForce 9800GT 55 nm, AC Accelero S1 passive; WD Caviar GP 1st gen 500 GB, Pioneer DVR-215D; Antec P182, Antec Neo HE 430W, 2x Scythe S-Flex 800 top and back exhaust, 1x on middle HDD cage. CPU 27, 45; GPU 41, 56[/size]

Nik7304
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Post by Nik7304 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:25 am

Thanks Elvellon. Couple of questions though:

Will 300W be enough for a GTX260? Or even a 9800? Everything I read seems to say get 500+W.

I read that a higher end dual-core is usually better than a lower end quad-core, hence why the E8500 rather than a Q9xxx.

On the motherboard, I'm leaning away from an Intel chipset because of the lack of SLI support. Unless I go i7, of course, which is still in "early adopter" price mode.

I have three fans in the case, one 120mm in the front, one 80mm underneath the optical bays for extra intake, and one exhaust at the rear (plus GPU and CPU, of course).

It's quite difficult, I'm not a hardcore gamer (Crysis, Far Cry, Stalker, etc.), more old-school if anything, so do I go sort of mid range, or high end? I've had as a rule to get the previous generation but don't know if it might be worth to swing up a bit this time and get more life out of it. Six years would be good (I'll be into my forties by then (scary!) so don't know how "hip" I'll be by then). I probably get at most one or two games a year, so don't know if I should just go with a lower spec.

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Post by angelkiller » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:50 am

Nik7304 wrote:Will 300W be enough for a GTX260? Or even a 9800? Everything I read seems to say get 500+W.
A 300W PSU is cutting it close. The GTX 260 has a TDP of 180W which is over half of 300W. For a larger but still quiet PSU, look at either the Corsair VX450 or the Corsair HX520. Both are very quiet and plenty for the GTX 260.
Nik7304 wrote:I read that a higher end dual-core is usually better than a lower end quad-core, hence why the E8500 rather than a Q9xxx.
True. IMHO, I'd stick with a dual core. You can save some money by getting the E8400 instead. Overclocking it to E8500 is a walk in the park. (seriously)
Nik7304 wrote:On the motherboard, I'm leaning away from an Intel chipset because of the lack of SLI support. Unless I go i7, of course, which is still in "early adopter" price mode.
SLI and Crossfire are really only beneficial for extremely high resolutions. But more importantly, in six months to a year, I really doubt you're going to SLI your 9600GT. Your money would be better spent on getting a new single graphics card. SLI isn't really a upgrade path.

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Post by maf718 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:50 am

Hi, that system's max power draw is going to be somewhere betweeen 250-300w so a decent 500-600w power supply would be plenty.

If, as you say, you are not a hardcore gamer, I wouldn't even consider SLI. Also, what resolution do you game at? It makes quite a difference to what graphics card you can get away with. If you can get the resolution your monitor requires for current and soon to be purchased games with a mid-range card (say £100-£130), you are probably better off doing that and then changing the card after 2.5-3 years. A £120 card in 3 years time is likely to be a lot better than a £240 card today.

If you do go with the GTX 260, remember it is a very long graphics card, I would check it fits in the case before purchasing (but you are probably ok because the drive cage is sideways in the Sonata II).

As for high end dual-core vs low end quad, I also tend to favour dual-core at the present, but I know that more and more games are being released that are optimised for quads. When (and if) the time comes that a dual-core can no longer cut it for mainstream gaming, there will probably be a cheap but fast quad-core Celeron or whatever on the market.

Nik7304
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Post by Nik7304 » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:57 am

Thanks for all the input. Certainly food for thought.

My monitor only goes to 1280x1024, and as far as I'm concerned that's fully adequate. So maybe a single 9800GTX on a P45 after all, go with the Duo now and get a Quad and a GTX260 later. Need to read up on P45s vs 750/780s though.

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Post by thejamppa » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:41 am

9800 GTX is pretty long card too, you want to check if Sonata II can accept it.
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Post by FartingBob » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:45 am

Your only gaming at 1280x1024?
Then yes your GPU choice is big time overkill.
Save yourself money and get something like the HD4830. It will run any current game at your res at max settings so it'll be pretty future proof. And then if you later decide to upgrade your monitor you can get a new card if you feel its necessary.
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Post by Faster_Madman » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:06 am

PSU: Overkill

RAM: Way overkill if you have an MS OS

HD: Many newer SataII drives are nearly as fast as the older Raptor and much cheaper and bigger

OS: Underkill, get a decent OS :)
[color=grey][size=75]C2D E8400, Noctua NH-C12P, Asus P5Q-E, 2 x 1GB Kingston HyperX, Radeon 4870, WD6400AAKS & WD15EARS, Corsair HX-620W, Antec P182, Scythe S-Flex, t.c electronics konnekt 8 soundcard.[/size][/color]

Nik7304
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Post by Nik7304 » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:23 pm

Thanks again.

Right now I'm leaning towards E8400 or E8500 (£15 difference), and a 9800GTX+ (again, small difference from the 9800GT), on a P45 board (possibly a Gigabyte DS3). That way I can go quad-core and GTX260 as an upgrade path in the future and still get some extra performance. Got a bit left behind with the old CPU when they switched to the newer socket.

OS wise, is Vista HP 64-bit no good?

Nik7304
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Post by Nik7304 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:51 am

After some crunching and reading, how does this sound:

Enermax 82+ 625W
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R
C2Duo E8500
Corsair Memory 4GBKIT (2X2GB)
XFX GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1TB 7200RPM 32MB S300
Vista Home Premium 64

Total cost of that would be just under £700 (I get some company discounts).

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Post by QuietOC » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:30 am

Nik7304 wrote:Right now I'm leaning towards E8400 or E8500 (£15 difference), and a 9800GTX+ (again, small difference from the 9800GT), on a P45 board (possibly a Gigabyte DS3). That way I can go quad-core and GTX260 as an upgrade path in the future and still get some extra performance.
You do know the GTX 260 is sure to be gone soon, as next years mid range cards will likely outperform it, and it is just a defective GTX 280 after all.
Nik7304 wrote:Enermax 82+ 625W
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R
C2Duo E8500
Corsair Memory 4GBKIT (2X2GB)
XFX GeForce 9800GTX+ 512MB
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1TB 7200RPM 32MB S300
I'm in favor of 8GB, but 4GB is fine to start.

All the XFX video cards I've had have had horrible fans, but they do approve of heatsink swaps under their warranty. I guess if this card is around $100 and fairly quiet it is not a bad deal. If not a Radeon HD 4850/4870 is what I'd look at for around $150. The frugal Radeon HD 4830 is a better deal than the 9800GTX+.

Seagate?!!! What are you reading?

Nik7304
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Post by Nik7304 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:42 am

Not Seagate? Yikes... I have a 7200.8 and a 7200.7 in at the moment and they work ok. What would be better?

I'd probably look to get a Zalman cooler for the XFX, again just from experience, my Zalman's worked ok on my 6600.

The GTX 260 was more just a thought, I got stuck with AGP as I built my system just before PCI-E came out, and I didn't want to spend money on a higher end GPU which would just be throttled by my CPU anyway, so have stuck with it.

Can Vista Home Premium 64 handle 8GB? Read that 4GB should be enough unless I do heavy memory intensive stuff like Maya.

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Post by QuietOC » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:09 am

Nik7304 wrote:Not Seagate? Yikes... I have a 7200.8 and a 7200.7 in at the moment and they work ok. What would be better?
Western Digital, Samsung, and Hitachi all have quieter drives.

Right now, the 2 platter WD 640GB drives are bang-for-the-buck. The 3 platter 1TB versions are good too. The 150GB Velociraptor is great even if expensive/GB.
Nik7304 wrote:Can Vista Home Premium 64 handle 8GB? Read that 4GB should be enough unless I do heavy memory intensive stuff like Maya.
1GB is often enough, but memory is cheap. I definitely benefit from 8GB over 4GB on my work system, but that is using 32-bit OSX. Vista is much better with less memory. Sure, 8GB is overkill, but less so than the 600W PS! :)

Nik7304
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Post by Nik7304 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:54 pm

600W is overkill? Again, anything else you would recommend? :) Corsair HX520? nVidia says 450W minimum for the GTX+. Is there a good Antec?

Hard drive-wise, how's the Western Digital Caviar 1TB 5400RPM 32MB S300 or the Samsung 1TB 7200RPM 32MB S300 3.5"?

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Post by murtoz » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:38 pm

Nik7304 wrote:Got a bit left behind with the old CPU when they switched to the newer socket.
You know Intel probably won't release any more (significant) 775 socket CPU's, right? I know i7 is overpriced atm, but if upgradeability is important to you, wouldn't you be better off waiting a couple of months and getting an entry i7?

Nik7304
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Post by Nik7304 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:58 am

Murtoz: Price, mainly. My E8500 option would be just under £700, a low-end i7 (920, cheapest mobo, cheapest 6GB DDR memory), comes in at just under £1,000.

We'll have to see, I'm selling off some stuff to raise money so it depends a bit on how much I get. Also, there's a question of do I need a whizzbang system for what I do. Doing a bit of casual gaming on an i7 seems a bit like using a Ferrari to take out the rubbish.

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Post by QuietOC » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:54 am

murtoz wrote:You know Intel probably won't release any more (significant) 775 socket CPU's, right? I know i7 is overpriced atm, but if upgradeability is important to you, wouldn't you be better off waiting a couple of months and getting an entry i7?
IMHO, the current Core i7 is in the position of AMD's S940 (i.e. not a real desktop design, but a good workstation design.)
Nik7304 wrote:600W is overkill? Again, anything else you would recommend? :) Corsair HX520? nVidia says 450W minimum for the GTX+. Is there a good Antec?
Yes, maybe 120W peak for the GTX+ plus 65W TDP for the E8500 plus maybe 40W for everything else (being generous): 225W peak. Any decent 300W PS would be plenty. Nvidia recommendations are for idiots buying the crappiest PS they can find (i.e. a "450W" that can barely handle a real 225W load.)
Hard drive-wise, how's the Western Digital Caviar 1TB 5400RPM 32MB S300 or the Samsung 1TB 7200RPM 32MB S300 3.5"?
Do you want more speed or more quiet?
Quiet: WD Caviar Green or Samsung Eco Green (or Hitachi P7K500)
Speed: WD Caviar Black (or Blue) or Samsung F1/2s (or S250)

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Post by maf718 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:23 am

My take on the "best" size for a power supply is to get one that can handle double your peak load. That way it's never going to be stressed beyond 50% so shouldn't get hot and/or noisy. If your revised system is going to peak at 225W then a decent 450W is ideal, probably easier to find than a decent 300W, and allows a little headroom should you ever wish to upgrade the PC.

For hard drives I look for the best compromise between performance, quietness and price, rather than the winner in any category. At the moment I like the WD Caviar Blue 640GB (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article847-page1.html) . It's quick but not the quickest, quiet but not the quietest and cheap but not the cheapest.

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Post by QuietOC » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:58 am

maf718 wrote:My take on the "best" size for a power supply is to get one that can handle double your peak load. That way it's never going to be stressed beyond 50% so shouldn't get hot and/or noisy. If your revised system is going to peak at 225W then a decent 450W is ideal, probably easier to find than a decent 300W, and allows a little headroom should you ever wish to upgrade the PC.
Except that then you are wasting power as the PC is actually running at <100W normally and that 225W is mainly theoretical. There is no technical reason why this system couldn't idle at 60W, and really, I think that is still too much.

Disclaimer: I own a couple of cheap 300W and a single 430W PS. The "430W" has the split 12V rail thing going on (which was probably a bad idea, thanks, intel.)

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Post by maf718 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:47 pm

QuietOC wrote:
maf718 wrote:My take on the "best" size for a power supply is to get one that can handle double your peak load. That way it's never going to be stressed beyond 50% so shouldn't get hot and/or noisy. If your revised system is going to peak at 225W then a decent 450W is ideal, probably easier to find than a decent 300W, and allows a little headroom should you ever wish to upgrade the PC.
Except that then you are wasting power as the PC is actually running at <100W normally and that 225W is mainly theoretical. There is no technical reason why this system couldn't idle at 60W, and really, I think that is still too much.
Hi Quiet OC, I nearly didn't post this as I broadly agree with you in principle and didn't want to get bogged in disagreeing about the details, but I believe you are underestimating the idle power draw. The 9800GTX+ by itself draws over 50W at idle according to my information, so the proposed system might idle below 100W, just, but nowhere near 60.

I too like my system to be power efficient, as well as pretty quiet, and my aim for power supply load is around 20% idle and 50% full whack, in order to stay in the efficient zone and the quiet zone. That equates to 450W in this instance; I know a 300W supply would be enough for this system, but I prefer my approach. Even the proposed Enermax 82+ 625W would be over 80% efficient at 90W but I agree it's overkill for this system.

Edit
@Nik7304 - apologies if I've strayed off topic, your proposed system is looking pretty good. I prefer ATi graphics to nvidia, but that's just personal choice. Please do look at the 2 platter 640 GB WD drives, they are rather good. As for going Core i7 etc instead; I wouldn't consider it unless you want to wait at least 6 months before building your system, socket 775 is the realistic mainstream option atm. While it's true there are unlikely to be new processors released for this socket, the current high end quads or similar will become affordable budget options in a couple of years or so.

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Post by QuietOC » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:57 pm

maf718 wrote:...but I believe you are underestimating the idle power draw. The 9800GTX+ by itself draws over 50W at idle according to my information, so the proposed system might idle below 100W, just, but nowhere near 60.
I didn't say it would idle at 60W, just that it *could*. My 9600GSO has basically the same components as the GTX+, and its no power hog. It is possible that the CPU + motherboard won't idle <60W. My E5200 + G31 can barely get down to 50W idle without a video card.

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Post by maf718 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:42 pm

QuietOC wrote:I didn't say it would idle at 60W, just that it *could*. My 9600GSO has basically the same components as the GTX+, and its no power hog. It is possible that the CPU + motherboard won't idle <60W. My E5200 + G31 can barely get down to 50W idle without a video card.
Ok, I think I understand where you are coming from - If the graphics card was underclocked and undervolted to its theoretical minimum at idle then the system *could* idle at 60W?

Graphics card manufacturers do not employ properly such power saving techniques, even though technically they could. In the real world that system will consume ~ 90W or more at idle, 50 of which comes from the graphics card.

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Post by Nik7304 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:11 am

It's always fun to read the various opinions. :)

PSU-wise I'm leaning towards the Antec EarthPower 430W or the Corsair VX450W. They're not too overkill, I hope.

A Happy New Year to all, hopefully one which will bring me a new PC. :)

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Post by hybrid2d4x4 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:04 pm

Wow. Interesting thread...
On the PSU issue, i would tend to side with maf718 and get something in the ballpark of 450W from a quality brand (ie: not some noname crap that come with cheap cases). While I agree with QuietOC that the build you proposed will probably not use that much power (my guesses would be 200W max, and 70W-90W idle), but here's why I wouldn't get something like a 300W PSU:

-Power consumption might increase drastically when you upgrade your video card in the future. The ATI 3800 series was considered efficient, but the 4800 series pretty much doubled that power consumption, and are huge power hogs relative to the previous generation. I'm not saying that it's guaranteed to get that much worse each generation, but it potentially could. If you get a 9800GTX now, which should easily last you 3 years at the res you play at, the replacement mid-range card could push a 300W to it's limits. I'm of the opinion that parts such as a case and PSU should last you a really long time, so I'd invest in something that will definitely accommodate your needs for the duration of it's operational lifespan.
-Even with the current configuration, you'd be pushing that PSU to 66-83% of it's rated capability (depending on whose guestimate for load power you use), and at that power level, the PSU's fan would be ramped up and out of it's quiet zone.

With regards to RAM, I personally went with 8GB because it's so cheap now since DDR2 is on it's way out, and it might get more expensive in the future, just like DDR-400 chips are a lot more expensive than DDR2 now.

One last recommendation: stay the hell away from anything Zalman (in reference to using it on your vid card)!
OS: Underkill, get a decent OS
Umm... I'm not sure what alternatives there are for gaming... XP 64 is definitely a lot worse (driver and software support). And very few games are designed to run on OSX or Linux. Also, from my experience, Vista is ok. Overall, I'd even say better than XP, although I don't appreciate some of the new ways they organized things and all the bloat that it ships with by default (but vLite takes care of that issue). I'm curious to hear what you'd recommend, Faster_Madman...
[size=75][url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=436979]Gaming rig[/url]: Tt Tsunami,P5Q Pro,Q9450 w Ninja,8GB RAM,4870 1GB w S1,WD 640GB,SB X-Fi Plat,ZM-MFC2.Kama PWM in PSU,others S-FlexEs.
[url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49965]HTPC[/url]: NSK2480,GB GF9400,E5200 w/ Minja,4GB RAM,WD GP 1.5TB,Nova DVB-S. Minja PSU fan,S-FlexEs case fans.[/size]

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Post by QuietOC » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:39 pm

hybrid2d4x4 wrote:
OS: Underkill, get a decent OS
Umm... I'm not sure what alternatives there are for gaming... XP 64 is definitely a lot worse (driver and software support). And very few games are designed to run on OSX or Linux. Also, from my experience, Vista is ok. Overall, I'd even say better than XP...
IMHO, Vista Home Premium is the best current OS. I use OSX and Solaris every day at work, I've used BeOS, VMS, NeXT Step and tried flavors of Linux a few times. Sure, Vista must run a bunch of horrible legacy code, but it does so very well. My big gripe is needing to call MS regularly to reactivate, but that is true of XP too.
Nik7304 wrote:PSU-wise I'm leaning towards the Antec EarthPower 430W or the Corsair VX450W. They're not too overkill, I hope.
Those sound like solid choices. I'd choose the 120mm fan equipped Corsair and swap the the stock fan for a better one.

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Post by Nik7304 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:08 am

Been fighting with various OS:s as well throughout, from Windows 3.11 to Linux and Solaris. Did give Linux a proper go for a while, but got fed up with spending hours unzipping tarballs and gzt-files just to get the soundcard to work. It's a great OS but you start to appreciate having things which just work.

Interesting point on the Zalman. I'm using a Zalman for my 6600 at the moment, and have a Zalman AlCu7000 on the CPU. Both work pretty good. Checked around for other coolers and Arctic's Freezer 7 Pro and Accelero S1 seem to be quite highly rated. They're big though... Why should I stay away from Zalman? Any other options?

And what sort of fan does the Corsair take? I have a spare old orange Nexus 120 mm case fan but I guess it's not the same.

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Post by QuietOC » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:28 am

Nik7304 wrote:And what sort of fan does the Corsair take? I have a spare old orange Nexus 120 mm case fan but I guess it's not the same.
PSs take normal fans. The Nexus may be too slow for the fan controller in the Corsair--according to the SPCR review the fan controller in the Corsair doesn't ramp up fan speed until a very high load. The Nexus would probably not spin at all. Of course, you don't have to plug the Nexus into the Corsair's fan controller.

My cheap In Win 300W PSs swapped with Gobal Win NCB fans are almost perfect. They spin at <800 rpms at idle and ramp up linearily with load. I prefer that method to the Corsair fan controller approach.

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Post by Nik7304 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:55 am

Might swap it then with a NMB-MAT RB-12025-L (have used Panaflos before and like them and I like Dorothy Bradbury). This thread here has MikeC recommending it as well. I read another thread on here about someone replacing it and it seemed straightforward.

Design a system, make it quiet, make it cool. :) That's almost the best part of it. Never mind about having a new computer to play on, building it is as much fun as you can have with a PC.

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Post by hybrid2d4x4 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:54 pm

Nik7304 wrote: Interesting point on the Zalman. I'm using a Zalman for my 6600 at the moment, and have a Zalman AlCu7000 on the CPU. Both work pretty good. Checked around for other coolers and Arctic's Freezer 7 Pro and Accelero S1 seem to be quite highly rated. They're big though... Why should I stay away from Zalman? Any other options?
I've had hands-on experience with the 7700Cu, 7000Cu and VF-700Cu LED. The first 2 were really disappointing out of the box with the fanmate set to the minimum (not relative to anything else since at the time, these were considered some of the best, just generally speaking) - their fans weren't smooth and you can clearly hear a sort of growl/rumble sound. Neither were they quiet, as I could hear them alongside that computer's bottom-of-the-barrel PSU that was included with the $35 case which was not quiet by any stretch of the imagination, just had a different tone. They were an improvement over the stock cpu cooler, but for $65 (more than the value of the CPU+stock cooler), it was disappointing.

The vid card cooler I still use in my HTPC (sans the offending fan) on my 6600GT. That one wasn't too horrible considering it is such a small fan and you have to expect it to spin fast if it's going to cool the GPU, and the sound was mostly the whoosh of air... for the first 3 months or so. After that it started "ticking" intermittently, which got more frequent over time, and then after 6 months or so it started grinding very loudly. So now I completely took out the fan, parted the flower in half to make it fit in the HTPC and am running it ghetto-passive underclocked with all hardware accelerated video disabled (not that it made any real difference in CPU usage in the first place with MPEG2 from satellite).

If you don't mind the Zalmans, then you either fluked out with miraculous samples, or more-likely, the noise-floor is a lot higher where you live. I'm on the outskirts of the city, with no major roads for several kms in each direction, where maybe 3 vehicles pass by per hour (residential speed), so my noisefloor is probably a lot closer to Mike's chamber than the ambient noise within a major city.
[size=75][url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=436979]Gaming rig[/url]: Tt Tsunami,P5Q Pro,Q9450 w Ninja,8GB RAM,4870 1GB w S1,WD 640GB,SB X-Fi Plat,ZM-MFC2.Kama PWM in PSU,others S-FlexEs.
[url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49965]HTPC[/url]: NSK2480,GB GF9400,E5200 w/ Minja,4GB RAM,WD GP 1.5TB,Nova DVB-S. Minja PSU fan,S-FlexEs case fans.[/size]

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