Absolutely inexplicable crashes with my PC.

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Mariner
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:25 am

Absolutely inexplicable crashes with my PC.

Post by Mariner » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:26 am

Here's the deal. I've had my homebuilt system for some years now but, throughout most of its life I have suffered a hugely irritating problem which leads to a hard crash every few weeks or so and which requires me to actually open the case to reach a resolution. :?

The problem shows itself as the hard disc access light locks on and the PC crashes (more recently sometimes with a "Delayed write failed" message) requiring a hard power down. After a hard power down, the system will sometimes reboot and work for a short time before the crash occurs once again but usually, it will not reboot at all as the PC powers on with the HD access light permanently on but with no disc access apparently occurring.

Now, the solution to get the system to reboot is pretty simple, if rather awkward. If I disconnect the PC, open up the case, unlug the SATA and power cables to the disc, plug them back in again and power on, voila, the system reboots OK and works without problems for a few weeks until the next identical crash occurs! This is particularly awkward, however, as my system is connected to my TV and I need to just about put my back out to be able to disconnect the keyboard/power/monitor etc cables from the back of the case!

When this problem first started showing itself (probably not until a few months after I had originally built the system), I presumed it was due to a problem with the hard disc. However, after replacing this, the PC continued with its intermittent crashes so I surmised the problem must be either the motherboard or the PSU. In due course, I replaced the motherboard (and upgraded the CPU and memory) only to find that the crashing problem continued unabated which led me to believe that the culprit must be the PSU.

However, I recently changed the PSU to use a PicoPSU and all was fine for a few weeks until last night when, you guessed it, the PC crashed in exactly the same manner as before.

As you might imagine, I'm now pulling my hair out as I've exhausted every possible avenue I can think of. Can anybody think of any possible reason for this problem and why it could continue occurring despite the fact that the hard disc, motherboard and PSU have now all been replaced!?! Every meaningful bit of hardware has changed since the problem first reared its ugly head and the only thing my ever-changing system has in common is casing itself and the Windows XP MCE 2005 installation which is fully up-to-date as are all the other system drivers. The problem has occurred using two separate TVs (a Toshiba and a Samsung) as monitors. I'm hardly an amateur, incidentally, as I've built probably 15 or so PCs over the years so I do usually know what I'm doing.

What puzzles me most is the fact that unplugging then reconnecting the hard disc will allow the system to reboot and function correctly again for a few weeks, when simply unplugging the power cable will not usually allow the system to reboot. I can't imagine that this would indicate any kind of a software problem but I also can't imagine what the hardware problem might be!

Here's the basics of my system, (not that I can see this should make any difference!) :

Low-profile Silverstone LC-19 case. Originally with an inbuilt 19V DC-DC 120W converter, now using a 12V PicoPSU (150W).
Originally, an ASRock motherboard (using an NVidia chipset) with an AMD Sempron, subsequently upgraded to an ASUS 780G motherboard with an Athlon 64 X2. Corsair XMS memory upgraded from 1GB to 2GB and running at stock speed.
The system connects to the PC input of my Samsung TV.
Originally a 120GB 2.5" Fujitsu disc (suspended), now a 500GB WD GreenPower 3.5", hard-mounted (incidentally, yes, I've tried out different SATA cables on both hard discs which have been used over the years).

Any ideas about the reasons for this problem and possible solutions would be gratefully received!

nyonya
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Post by nyonya » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:35 am

Really guessing here, but maybe static electricity is building up in your case somewhere? I assume you're using a three-prong power cord - maybe make sure that the ground in your wall is actually functional?

I have no idea though. I've never heard of a problem like that.

Tzeb
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Post by Tzeb » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:01 pm

Get a new SATA cable for the hdd.
Edit : New as in not aonther one you have there "used over the years". Try a brand new one.

jhhoffma
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Post by jhhoffma » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:52 pm

Have you turned off delayed writes in the Device Manager?

Also check the event viewer to see if anything in particular is generating errors at the time of failure.

Mariner
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Post by Mariner » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:15 pm

Thanks for the quick feedback.

I've checked the system and there doesn't appear to be any problem within the case itself. Ground in the wall socket is OK or, at least, the electrician who came to do some work at my house the other month said all was fine when I asked him to check that socket!

I've actually used 2 different SATA cables which came included new with the two motherboards plus one from work but the eventual result is the same so I'm pretty sure they aren't the culprits.

Most interestingly, as suggested, I've checked the Event Viewer and it appears that the cause of these system errors appears to be called, "nv". I'm guessing this must somehow relate to the NVidia chipset in my old ASRock motherboard. If so, this is extremely irksome because I don't have any NVidia hardware in my system whatsoever any longer and I did my best to remove all traces of their drivers when I moved to my newer motherboard with the ATI/AMD chipset!

If this is indeed the culprit, I can only imagine that the original NVidia drivers used when I built the system and installed Windows were somehow buggy. Perhaps, for some reason, these were never updated correctly leading to the continued problems encountered both before and after I replaced the NVidia hardware?

The first thing for me to do is have a look for a 'driver cleaner' to make sure I've got rid of all the NVidia crud. If that doesn't solve the problem, I suppose I'll have to nuke the Windows installation and waste a load of time reinstalling all my software. Oh joy.

If anyone else has ideas about any other possible causes of the problem I will, of course, be happy to hear them.

Wibla
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Post by Wibla » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:29 pm

Do a fresh install on a spare partition or disk and see if that solves it? that way you can test if it solves the problem before nuking your current installation :)

mgarl10024
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Post by mgarl10024 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:38 am

Hi Mariner,

Without meaning to offend at all - (as you say you are experienced and have built more PC than I have!) - is the motherboard fitted correctly so as not to be shorting on the case somewhere?

I'll accept that if it were shorting, it shouldn't take a few weeks to show up, but it really is an odd problem!

MG

ascl
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Post by ascl » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:56 am

Having it occur only once every few weeks definitely makes it hard to identify. So, just to confirm, you have replaced the motherboard, the PSU and the HDD?

When you replaced the HDD did you clone the original OS or do a fresh install? It seems the common thread is software, however it would be unusual for a corrupted OS (or drivers) to cause what you are describing.

What *else* is connected to your SATA bus? Perhaps some other device is causing a conflict?

Found a list of possible causes and solutions for you to try:
http://www.gibni.com/windows-delayed-wr ... led-solved

Mariner
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Post by Mariner » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:24 am

Hello again all. I can confirm that nothing on the motherboard is shorting out - I've double-checked everything with both motherboards and have re-installed each a couple of times to be certain yet the problem has continued.

If I remember correctly, I probably just cloned the OS when changing the hard disc so the original installation may well be the cause of the problem.

The fact that the hard disc needed to be physically unplugged then reconnected led me to believe that it must obviously be a hardware error so I didn't even consider the chance of a software problem until now. Now I've replaced every single piece of hardware which might have been at fault for the error, my view on this possibility has changed!

My system is a very low-profile one with just one SATA hard disc connected plus a laptop DVD writer connected by IDE so nothing should be causing any conflicts in the system.

I think I'll try the driver-cleaner approach and, if this doesn't work will look into a clean installation. In fact, even if the problem continues, I may just live with it until Windows 7 is released and do a clean installation of that. About time I moved on from WinXP, I feel.

psiu
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Post by psiu » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:35 am

Mariner wrote:Hello again all. I can confirm that nothing on the motherboard is shorting out - I've double-checked everything with both motherboards and have re-installed each a couple of times to be certain yet the problem has continued.

If I remember correctly, I probably just cloned the OS when changing the hard disc so the original installation may well be the cause of the problem.

The fact that the hard disc needed to be physically unplugged then reconnected led me to believe that it must obviously be a hardware error so I didn't even consider the chance of a software problem until now. Now I've replaced every single piece of hardware which might have been at fault for the error, my view on this possibility has changed!

My system is a very low-profile one with just one SATA hard disc connected plus a laptop DVD writer connected by IDE so nothing should be causing any conflicts in the system.

I think I'll try the driver-cleaner approach and, if this doesn't work will look into a clean installation. In fact, even if the problem continues, I may just live with it until Windows 7 is released and do a clean installation of that. About time I moved on from WinXP, I feel.
Good luck. I had a horrible time trying to figure out what the problem was on a system that had been stable for 2+ years. After changing everything eventually broke down and bought all new hardware (went from 939 to AM2) and is all better. Wasted over a year fighting with it. 3 CPUs, 2 motherboard, loads of ram, different drives, different psus, different cases...who knows what it was.

edit: I have a similar experience level and know how to troubleshoot/isolate etc. It's usually pretty hopeless by the time someone at a tech level like most of the people on this board posts for help.

Maybe get a bucket of chicken and do a sacrifice over the grill in the backyard.

K.Murx
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Post by K.Murx » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:47 am

After one of the crashes, when it does not reboot, you could try to boot from a Linux Rescue-CD/USB-Drive. I can't provide you with a complete testing procedure off the top of my head, but something along lshw [check for SATA controller], lshal [check for HDD manufacturer name], hdparm -iC /dev/sda [check for current state of drive], try to mount, if mount -> fsck, if !mount -> err... should give you a rough idea of what is going on.

Mariner
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Post by Mariner » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:04 am

Incidentally, after doing a full clear-out of all NVidia drivers I realised that my brain had obviously stopped working altogether. When upgrading the other month, I did originally intend to buy a motherboard with an ATI/AMG 780G chipset but my mind at the last minute and actually bought one with the NVidia GeForce 8200 chipset. So I have had an NVidia chipset all along! :oops:

I can only blame the stress caused by this problem for my embarrassing lapse. :)

My only hope that now I've removed then re-installed all the NVidia drivers, perhaps that will resolve the problem? Yeah, right. :roll:

Greg F.
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Post by Greg F. » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:12 pm

I can sympathize as I had something very similar and it went on for about a year. Three PS, three sets of memory, power cables, etc. etc. It would turn on and off randomly.
It turned out that the plug from the switch on the front of the case to the motherboard was apparently not making a good contact. When I shorted the motherboard prongs with screwdriver it would always start. I bent one of the prongs a little bit and haven't had a problem in about half a year now. Knock on wood.
Not saying this is your problem at all, just that it can sure be exasperating to find some of these things.

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