Internet/Office/HD-Movie computer with low power consumption

[herbertmaier]

HI everybody!

I have been an admirer of your site and used some of the recommendations to build a gaming pc that is quiet enough

The thing with gaming pcs is, the power consumption is ridiculous for doing everyday tasks, which is why I like to invest SOME money right there.
I did some research and found a few recommendations, but am not sure if the parts I chose are going to be sufficient for what I need and how much cooling I will actually need for this setup.

Assigned tasks running on Linux Fedora:
- Internet browsing + Emails
- word processing, spreadsheets
- some light picture processing
- some file sharing for local network
- watching (HD) movies

As I am new to this low range, low power silent computing, please let me know what you think about the following configuration:

Mainboard+CPU: http://computershopper.com/components/r ... e350ia-e45
RAM: prob a single 4GB DDR3 1333 stick, is there any significant difference in power consumption?
HD: 80GB 2.5" some Hitachi one, I am not going to buy a new one right now, with the currently ridiculous prices
Case + cooling: well I am not sure, I saw these two here: http://www.silentpcreview.com/silverstone-gd05 and http://www.silentpcreview.com/article591-page1.html but I am not sure how well that would be a fit for what I am trying to achieve.
I am totally lost on how much cooling I'll need for the CPU and motherboard and would very much appreciate your input!
Did I forget anything?

[Nicias]

Two years ago, I would have told you to avoid AMD/ATI graphics for linux, but now there isn't a good low-power option. Intel and AMD have largely shouldered nVidia out of the integrated graphics market. There are some CULV ION2 boards with last generation pentiums, but nothing really competitive.

I don't use Fedora (Gentoo so far) but I'd check over at your distribution's forums or mailing lists about compatibility.

[HFat]

Hi!

am not sure if the parts I chose are going to be sufficient for what I need and how much cooling I will actually need for this setup.

It's not clear based on how imprecisely you specified your needs. Yes, you can do these tasks with an E-350 (provided your OS has decent drivers, something you need to verify!). But it's a weak CPU, like a dual-core Atom with somewhat better single-threaded performance. It could be fine depending on what exactly you do and also on how patient you are.

If you settle for an E-350, the amount of cooling needed would be minimal because it's low-power gear.
People have used this CPU without any fans (you'd need a board and a case designed for that purpose) so the fan which comes with the board you selected ought to be sufficient in many cases. Its noise might be a problem however (or not).

HD: 80GB 2.5" some Hitachi one, I am not going to buy a new one right now, with the currently ridiculous prices

Lots of people could sell you one for cheap. Also consider an SSD.

Case + cooling: ... I am not sure how well that would be a fit for what I am trying to achieve.

Well, you didn't say what you wanted to achieve.
If you're OK with a large case, any case would do. If you want to keep power consumption low, you'll have to pay attention to the power supply's efficiency however. The ones which typically come with cases are very inefficient.
Some small open cases like some Morex models come with decent power supplies and would allow you to build a nice low-power PC quickly without worrying about fans and power supplies.

[Abula]

I dont see much point into going with an AMD E-350, intel CPU are more capable and the new built in iGPUs (HD 3000/2000/1000) are more than enough for watching 1080p movies, this is what i would go, for an Internet/office/HDmovie PC,

CPU: Intel Celeron G530 Sandy Bridge 2.4GHz $51 or Intel Pentium G840 Sandy Bridge 2.8GHz $84
MOBO: Intel BOXDH61DLB3 $89 or Intel BOXDH67CFB3 $125 (if you want HDMI, PCIe 16x and SATA III)
Memory: G.SKILL ECO Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Desktop Memory Model F3-10666CL9D-4GBECO $28 (the G530 can only use 1066 memory so cross check this)
CASE: LIAN LI PC-Q11B Black Aluminum Mini-ITX Tower Computer Case $80
PSU: PWR-PICOPSU-90-XLP $33 + 60w (12v/5A) AC-DC Power Adapter with Power Cord $15
SSD: Crucial M4 CT064M4SSD2 2.5" 64GB $110 or SAMSUNG 830 Series MZ-7PC064D/AM 2.5" 64GB $120

The above should idle below 15W and load below 50W (check my sig for similar build and also check this thread). Try the stock intel CPU heatsink first see how you like it in terms of noice, if you dont like it, the Q11 will allow you install any heatsink even above 170mm (this is with the picoPSU), and the frontal case fan is so close that you might be able to run it fanless. If you dont like the frontal fan, exchange it for Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilentPro PK-1 140mm x 25mm Ultra Quiet Fan - 700 RPM - 9 dBA.

[herbertmaier]

Thank you very much for your replies and input!

I don't use Fedora (Gentoo so far) but I'd check over at your distribution's forums or mailing lists about compatibility.

I found some information on using Fusion with Fedora and there were some recommended packages... can't remember which one right now, but it's supposed to work nicely when watching HD movies, which is probably the most computing intensive task I'll use the machine for if I am not mistaken.

It's not clear based on how imprecisely you specified your needs.

I am not sure how I should clarify what I am planning to do with the computer.

People have used this CPU without any fans (you'd need a board and a case designed for that purpose) so the fan which comes with the board you selected ought to be sufficient in many cases. Its noise might be a problem however (or not).

The MSI board is supposed to have good built-in undervolting facilities. Would the two cases I mentioned above allow for a fanless operation? I would prefer to use a small case if possible.

Lots of people could sell you one for cheap. Also consider an SSD.

Where can you get cheap hard disks these days? I am from Germany which is close enough to switzerland , so if you know a supplier I'd be interested to know!

Well, you didn't say what you wanted to achieve.
If you're OK with a large case, any case would do. If you want to keep power consumption low, you'll have to pay attention to the power supply's efficiency however. The ones which typically come with cases are very inefficient.
Some small open cases like some Morex models come with decent power supplies and would allow you to build a nice low-power PC quickly without worrying about fans and power supplies

Sorry for not being clear enough. My main concern is the power draw of my gaming/3D processing computer, so I'd like to have a low power low noise everyday machine.
Could you please point me to those morex cases you were talking about?!

The above should idle below 15W and load below 50W

I'll have a close look at your setup, thanks very much for the input. The only thing putting me off is the relatively high power consumption. I read an article that measured a fanless SSD setup for the MSI motherboard with values ranging from 14.5W idle to 19W under full load. That's what really caught my eye, but I am not sure how well the article's readings compare to the thread you posted, as neither mention the meter used...

Gee, this is going to harder than I thought... Thanks for your help so far!

[MikeC]

Abula's recommendations look pretty solid, tho as usual there are too many similar alternatives to make any one set of components perfect or mandatory. I do agree that for HD video, you want and need a fair bit of CPU power -- more than an E-350 can provide. It's not that it can't play HD; it's more a question of how well it will do with HD files that were not optimally compressed or ripped, etc.... which of course assumes you're not only watching movies on bluray, but downloads as well. Anyway, more CPU power makes HD videos run more smoothly more of the time. 4gb ram is the min I'd use.

I'm running a 4-core Phenom II (95W TDP) w/8gb ram, 2 HDDs. Still idles no higher than ~40W AC, never above 60W AC.

[HFat]

I am not sure how I should clarify what I am planning to do with the computer.

Then I think it's more prudent to avoid the E350 and go with a G530. The E350 is perfect for some uses if you know what you're doing. If you don't, the G530 is much nicer and can be upgraded if need be so it's more likely to satisfy in the long run.

Where can you get cheap hard disks these days?

Same as ever: from acquaintances or on the used market. Low capacities and non-standard (like 12mm laptop drives) can be found cheaply with a little patience. I have laptop drives up to 160G I could sell for instance but others are bound to have larger ones.

Sorry for not being clear enough. My main concern is the power draw of my gaming/3D processing computer, so I'd like to have a low power low noise everyday machine.

I understood that.
What I don't know is what you want with regard to price, size and noise. If you're not picky, it won't be hard at all to build your computer.

Could you please point me to those morex cases you were talking about?!

Here's the nicest (and most expensive) model: http://www.mini-tft.de/xtc-neu/product_ ... -92-x.html

The only thing putting me off is the relatively high power consumption.

The things which would put me off are the price, the work needed and the somewhat unreliabile PSU.
The idle power consumption of the build should actually be quite low. The load consumption would be higher but you get value for it. You can also keep it down by underclocking the CPU (which would also make cooling easier).
Load power consumption is not the most relevant metric for your usage. If you really wanted low load power consumption for some reason, you should pick a 32nm Atom instead. I don't believe your 19W figure by the way (the CPU running at 100% and full load are different things).

[bryanchicken]

HFat - have you had a bad experience with the PicoPSU then? I've had 3 and never had a blip out of any of them.

Regarding the power consumption: if both the G530 and the Fusion idle at the same value then the difference in total power consumption will be negligable. The G530 might use more under load but it will also finish the task much quicker and return to idle sooner.

[HFat]

HFat - have you had a bad experience with the PicoPSU then? I've had 3 and never had a blip out of any of them.

No but search the board for people who had issues. Even if they were total duds (they aren't), you could get lucky 3 times in a row. All PSUs have issues of course but pico issues seem more common and the design is somewhat questionable. You are also subject to the efficiency of the brick which adds to the parts selection problem.
I would use a pico without hesitation for a personal PC. But for people who build computers professionally or who are a bit lost when it comes to diagnosing problems, hacks aren't such a good idea. If it's the only solution to get what you want without breaking the budget, you've got to take your chances of course.

[Abula]

I'll have a close look at your setup, thanks very much for the input. The only thing putting me off is the relatively high power consumption. I read an article that measured a fanless SSD setup for the MSI motherboard with values ranging from 14.5W idle to 19W under full load. That's what really caught my eye, but I am not sure how well the article's readings compare to the thread you posted, as neither mention the meter used...

The review you read seem accurate or at least similar to my finding when i had atom 510, the cpu will idle similar but load a lot lower, but this is also because it cant do much in a period of time. Im just going to try to complement what bryanchiken already pointed out.

Regarding the power consumption: if both the G530 and the Fusion idle at the same value then the difference in total power consumption will be negligable. The G530 might use more under load but it will also finish the task much quicker and return to idle sooner.

Check SPCR Intel Core i3-2100T & Core i5-2400S Low Power CPUs, while there is not a direct comparation between the G530 and the E350, something similar will happen, if you see the top graph the AMD CPU have better performace per $$, but once you enter performance per watt intel literary doubles. Intels CPU are much more capable, specially a E350 that will be a very low end cpu even comparing to Celeron G530 which is the lowest Sandy bridge cpu atm. The G530 it will consume more on load, but it will also finish the task a lot faster returning to idle much faster, sort of speak, they use the energy better, being more efficient. The G530 will be less at load in any given task, while the E350 will maintain much more at load.

For more information, check AVS Celeron G530 SNB Quick Review, and if you can the hole thread, a lot of info there about Sandy Bridge CPUs, oriented to HTPC and video playback. Most of the Sandy Bridge dual cores are going to idle very similar, and with in similar cpus they will also have similar loads, check Pentium G850/G840/G620 vs. Core i3-2100T. I think overall the G530 or similar like G620/G840 will be your best bet.

Remember a key part of going low on consumption will be the mobo, stay with intel on the mobo and the picoPSU, i tried to select the newest low consumption psu and brick, i dont think you will need much more, but there are other options you might want to look for, like HFAT suggestion, Morex Black T-3500 60W Mini-ITX Case $88.

[HFat]

if you see the top graph the AMD CPU have better performace per $$, but once you enter performance per watt intel literary doubles.

It's a detail but the E350 CPU is going to be more efficient than regular AMDs. The platform on the other hand is not going to be efficient.
Efficency is not the platform's selling point. The low load power consumption is interesting in its own right because it allows fanless cooling without huge heatsink or heatpipes.

there are other options you might want to look for, like HFAT suggestion, Morex Black T-3500 60W Mini-ITX Case $88.

A clarification: I initially suggested something like that for an E350. It's a good case for fanless boards. But for a Sandy Bridge, it's probably not ideal (it depends on your requirements). There are cheaper cases which come with this type of power supply.

[Mr Spocko]

Maybe it's just me but an internet/office HD movie pc well really you don't need a whole lot of firepower to do that.
So I see no problems with the AMD E-350 in this context of "intended use"

You don't buy that kind of processor for power users video/photo/rendering so unless the OP has another requirement that will easily do the above and use very little power doing so.

[MikeC]

Maybe it's just me but an internet/office HD movie pc well really you don't need a whole lot of firepower to do that.
So I see no problems with the AMD E-350 in this context of "intended use"

Have you actually tried using a low power CPU for a HTPC day in/out w/ downloaded movie HD files? I did, and I would not repeat it. If the source material encoding is pristine, maybe, but in lots of cases it is not. With a lower power dual core Athlon (2.8 GHz, iirc), my HTPC experience was so-so. Moved up to 4-core Phenom II -- way better. Upgrade to 8GB ram. Better still. It's not that the lower spec systems could not do HD, it's that they could not do it consistently w/o glitches, and navigating extensive lists of media is also much smoother w/ higher spec hardware.

[herbertmaier]

Hi guys,

Gee, this is a lot of new information to digest
I am glad though, you are all pitching in trying to help me! I didn't expect this much activity, so thanks again!

@Mike:

I'm running a 4-core Phenom II (95W TDP) w/8gb ram, 2 HDDs. Still idles no higher than ~40W AC, never above 60W AC.

You also mentioned that a low power system you used didn't perform well enough for a pleasant HD experience. Can you recall what setup you used?
If I understand correctly, from what I will be doing the HD video really is the major bottleneck as far as computing power is concerned?!

As this machine will probably run for very long hours, I'd like to keep idle power draw to a minimum and 40W compared to <20 is quite a difference. But of course it doesn't make any sense if it can't handle the video playback. If it doesn't require fans, that is an added bonus of course

@HFat:
Thanks again for your suggestions. When I said, I am not sure how to clarify what I want, I was not sure what kind of detail would be needed.

What I don't know is what you want with regard to price, size and noise. If you're not picky, it won't be hard at all to build your computer.

Well, I like that last sentence! I'll start with the easiest:
Size: It doesn't have to be super small like this one: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1069-page2.html, but I would not want another Antec P183 "monster". I am not sure what size would be most beneficial or rather allow for a quiet machine without being a ridiculously expensive investment.
Noise: Right now, I am using an old laptop for everyday tasks, like writing this. I am not a big fan, no pun intended, of the noisy fans of most, especially old laptops and this one draws too much power anyway as it has a dedicated gpu. If the setup could be fanless, I'd be willing to invest a little more.
Price: I think this is the hardest one. I think my statements above are all I can really say about this. I definitely don't want a huge case, so if that'll cost me more, I am willing to pay for that. As for the noise factor, I really don't know how much of and investment a low(er) noise machine would be.
I am still not sure, if the G530 or Fusion would be the right choice. For most of the day, I'll be using the machine for office work which both of them should handle fine, the Intel one is more expensive but will be faster but also probably draw more power?

Load power consumption is not the most relevant metric for your usage. If you really wanted low load power consumption for some reason, you should pick a 32nm Atom instead. I don't believe your 19W figure by the way (the CPU running at 100% and full load are different things).

I double checked the article and it stated 12.4W idling and 17.8W under full load, after doing some undervolting. That being said, I have of course no way to verify those numbers myself just yet
So what should I be looking at rather than load power consumption?

@Abula+bryanchicken:
Thanks for pointing this out and linking the articles. As most of the time I actually won't be watching movies but work on this machine, I am not sure how to interpret those results for this.
To clarify this: 60% of the time the machine is on, it'll be office/internet/music and file server for 2 other machines. 10% watching (HD) movies and 30% idling and acquiring the latest tv shows in english I don't know who is responsible for the horrible translations of tv shows, but with some shows it is unbearable!

Well, I hope I am still making sense to a certain extend and am very thankful you are guiding me through this decision process!
I hope I was able to clarify things a little more and hope you will continue to help me!

[HFat]

If I understand correctly, from what I will be doing the HD video really is the major bottleneck as far as computing power is concerned?!

It depends on the details.
Everyone has baseless opinions. But if you want to know, you'll need to start with quantitative information and specifics like what codec, what resolution and so on for the videos. For the office types of tasks, you need to know the operations you want to do, how fast you want them to complete and the amount of data involved. This stuff gets tedious real fast.
If you have experience with different types of CPU, you can sort of guess what you'd need to get the result you desire. If not, any quick purchase is going to be a bit of a gamble. Maybe you'd be fine with a E350 but you're more likely to be satisfied with a G530.

As this machine will probably run for very long hours, I'd like to keep idle power draw to a minimum and 40W compared to <20 is quite a difference. But of course it doesn't make any sense if it can't handle the video playback.

Mike's setup is inefficient compared to what you can buy today. You can have a very powerful computer with <20W idle power consumption, by replacing the G530 with an i5-2400 for instance.

If the setup could be fanless, I'd be willing to invest a little more.
Price: I think this is the hardest one. I think my statements above are all I can really say about this. I definitely don't want a huge case, so if that'll cost me more, I am willing to pay for that. As for the noise factor, I really don't know how much of and investment a low(er) noise machine would be.

Here's the deal if you want fanless: with a CPU like the E350, it's easy and pretty cheap to go fanless if you're OK with high temperatures.
With a more powerful CPU, fanless is totally doable but more expensive. So I think you should first decide if the cost would be too high for you.
What do you think about that: http://www.silentpcreview.com/HDPLEX_H3.SODD
There's a cheaper way to go fanless but it's going to be trickier if you want reasonable temperatures is a case that's not huge and I haven't seen a successful build report so far. Plus, you'd have to limit the power of your CPU more than with an expensive case.

So what should I be looking at rather than load power consumption?

If you want to save electricity, mainly idle power consumption because, based on what you said, I figure your CPU will idle 90-95% of the time.
Load power consumption also matters for cooling of course but there are ways to cool fairly powerful CPU without any noise and very powerful CPU with very little noise.

[Mr Spocko]

Maybe it's just me but an internet/office HD movie pc well really you don't need a whole lot of firepower to do that.
So I see no problems with the AMD E-350 in this context of "intended use"

Have you actually tried using a low power CPU for a HTPC day in/out w/ downloaded movie HD files? I did, and I would not repeat it. If the source material encoding is pristine, maybe, but in lots of cases it is not. With a lower power dual core Athlon (2.8 GHz, iirc), my HTPC experience was so-so. Moved up to 4-core Phenom II -- way better. Upgrade to 8GB ram. Better still. It's not that the lower spec systems could not do HD, it's that they could not do it consistently w/o glitches, and navigating extensive lists of media is also much smoother w/ higher spec hardware.

I've not had any complaints from the Zotac's I've put out there to people I know ala E-350 based ones.
Of course HD video will stretch the CPU a lot more than even a modest dual core desktop, but depending on what format you are playing, just as in a desktop with a fairly recent ish graphics card (even a budget one) offloads more work to the GPU for playback.

I'd certainly be fairly happy with the performance of such a machine, esp in the context of the E-350 v most of the Atom processors.
But then I'm not a serious video dude some folks are maybe more fussy..I'm just passing on my take

The people using these are just as the OP's requirement mostly web, email, office type work and a bit of video. For more serious performance obviously you'd want more. Even then I see no problems with very good HD video playback even with a fairly ordinary dual core Athlon II again the GPU ofloads quite a lot of that work (I use 6450's for basic machines) Even on my old now departed Athlon 64x2 4200 which was not capable of playing full HD video back smoothly (720 was ok), adding a new GPU nipped that problem in the bud fairly well.

Regarding web use same again that used to chew up CPU cycles on the 4200 (esp flash intensive sites) modern GPU big improvement there too
Memory wise I'm not seeing any problems with the 4Gb machines I've put out (my standard spec now for a super budget one running Win 7)

I'm loaded up with 16Gb of ram but I've never seen a time where I hit 8 let alone more be lucky to hit 4Gb with Win 7 64bit. If you're running lots of virtual machines maybe, for most normal users 4Gb is fine for a budget machine and 8Gb for more meaty users. Over that minimal improvements to performance.

Last super ultra budget machine I did (ie broke person no cash) was a Sempron 145 unlocked to dual core with 2Gb of ram on an ASrock N68C-S UCC just running onboard GPU and they were pretty happy with that and Win 7 for office, web and some video too.
Maybe I'm not in the loop for video but that's the feedback I got from them

[MikeC]

herbertmaier --

Yes, it sounds like the other tasks will be relatively unchallenging compared to HD video. Keep in mind I am referring mostly to 720p and 1080p mkv 1-3 hr movie/video files downloaded via torrents. The quality of the encoding varies. HD video playback with a big 1080p TV with a HT sound system is the primary role of this PC -- occasional web surfing, torrent downloads & file transfers, and being an audio streaming source are the other functions.

I was suggesting that the E350 system won't really cut it. but Abula's suggested Pentium G840 system would probably work fine.

The earlier machine was an Athlon x2 2.4 or 2.8 Ghz w/ 4gb ram on an AMD785 chipset board w/ integrated graphics. This would sometime stumble on some video playback. Stuttering, bad audio sync, etc. But straight from bluray, it generally worked fine, unless you did lots of fast forward/reverse, which also made it hiccup. (Note: On a dualcore Atom system, it was worse, even with a Broadcom hardware decoder that provides video/audio hardware acceleration and support for H.264 and VC-1 video decoding.)

The next machine was a Phenom II X4 running 3.2 Ghz, 8gb ram on a 790 chipset, again integrated graphics. That was a Rolls, never choked on any file, any operation. 99.8% free of glitches.

Currently, I've downgraded temporarily. Athlon II x2 265 (3.6Ghz), same 8GB RAM. Back to 785, integrated graphics. Not as trouble free as previous. Probably will go back to previous setup or similar soon.

That 15W vs <40W comparison, btw... the first number is a guess by Abula on the system he proposed. I think it is optimistic, especially if he is referring to AC power. My guess -- it'll be more like 20W AC or more at idle; AC is really what matters in the end. The <40W I refer to is AC power, and I measure it right at the wall socket.

An aside -- why do you seek low power consumption? To be green or save money? If the latter, a 20W savings will be pennies even over a very long period. If the former, the key question is how the electricity is generated in your area. If it's mostly coal, for sure, everything you can do to reduce demand is a good thing. But in BC where 88% of electricity is from hydro dams or in Quebec where it's 98% hydro, there's not much point striving to save a meager 20W.

[Abula]

That 15W vs <40W comparison, btw... the first number is a guess by Abula on the system he proposed. I think it is optimistic, especially if he is referring to AC power. My guess -- it'll be more like 20W AC or more at idle; AC is really what matters in the end. The <40W I refer to is AC power, and I measure it right at the wall socket.

Well its a guess, but i have my minimi build idling at 14W (check sig link on middle of the thread) and a tramall DH61DL vs. DH61AG power test ... and G620 vs G620T build that also manage a 12W idle on picoPSU, my guess is one fan setup and a little more efficient picoPSU, im using 150W EDAC brick with a 150XT, while im suggesting the new 90XLP with Level V efficient 60W brick, it can be drop down to 11-10W (with minimal perif. attached)... again just a guess on my part as neither of the two build reach that low, but i think its possible being a little optimistic. On load i do reach close to 50W on prime 95 and tramall is reaching 42W, but this is prime95, i dont think many apps will push that much aside from encoding, the G530 is more similar to the G620 so im incline more to say his load will be more in line with tramalls 42W than my 50W, probably the G840 will be in between both.

[HFat]

For the record, in my opinion Abula's guess is a lot better than Mike's.
First, Abula has personal experience and has done research. Second, Germans (who have 220V) had already been getting 15W on Intel desktops with the previous generation. And Sandy Bridge is more efficient.
You could end up with 20W with an inefficent brick so I'm not saying 15W is a guarantee by any means. But it's definitely possible with a little research.

Also, the G530 should consume less than the G620.

[MikeC]

Germans (who have 220V) had already been getting 15W on Intel desktops with the previous generation. And Sandy Bridge is more efficient.

Well, that's true, PSUs typically improve efficiency 2-4% at 220VAC vs 110VAC. My AC is 120V.

[merlyn]

I've just built a media centre in a fusion black which is very similar to the nsk2400 you mentioned. They're great cases, loads of room and great airflow. Sack the tri-cools of course.

[herbertmaier]

@HFat:

I have to admit, the pricing for the case you suggested is a "little" more than I was hoping for, but then it is very small. In my first post I mentioned a few cases that were larger but nothing huge and the morex case you mentiones was bigger as well and had a much more appealing price!

There's a cheaper way to go fanless but it's going to be trickier if you want reasonable temperatures is a case that's not huge and I haven't seen a successful build report so far. Plus, you'd have to limit the power of your CPU more than with an expensive case.

How huge would that be?

You said, it might be a good idea to look at how other CPUs fared for me. My current laptop has a Intel Core 2 Duo T8300 @ 2.40GHz, the GPU is an nvidia can't recall which one right now. The speed of the system is more than sufficient for my daily routine, it is actually well-equipped enough for gaming and 3D rendering, BUT - there's always a but - I have been exchanging components as parts started to fail all over. i have been lugging it around the world in the past few years and it will probably fall apart pretty soon anyway
Anyway, based on that system at least regarding office/internet usage, how would that compare to the fusion/Intel option?

@Mr Spocko:
Thanks, that is good to know there's some real world people using Fusion happily


@MikeC:
Thanks for your input!

Yes, it sounds like the other tasks will be relatively unchallenging compared to HD video. Keep in mind I am referring mostly to 720p and 1080p mkv 1-3 hr movie/video files downloaded via torrents. The quality of the encoding varies. HD video playback with a big 1080p TV with a HT sound system is the primary role of this PC -- occasional web surfing, torrent downloads & file transfers, and being an audio streaming source are the other functions.

Some of the video is HD mkv, so the Fusion will probably struggle with that?

An aside -- why do you seek low power consumption? To be green or save money? If the latter, a 20W savings will be pennies even over a very long period. If the former, the key question is how the electricity is generated in your area. If it's mostly coal, for sure, everything you can do to reduce demand is a good thing. But in BC where 88% of electricity is from hydro dams or in Quebec where it's 98% hydro, there's not much point striving to save a meager 20W.

Well, all of the above really. Electricity is not as cheap in germany as in Canada, unfortunately. If I run a 20W machine 12h/day every day it'll cost me about 20Euros, a 40W will double that of course and the computer is going to be running longer hours than that, so it's not pennies, although I am aware the saving are probably not going to be worth it as setting up the system might be more cost intensive. I do like the idea of doing something for our environment, which is why I want to turn off my high performance machine unless gaming or rendering. Our electricity is not very green, they put up all these wind-power generators, but forgot that they can't really get the energy where it's supposed to go and they burn/rot/whatnot food to produce energy - outrageous but that's politics for you... renewable energy my *** /rant off
There is of course the other main motivator, i like to tinker with computers. and I might not be a pro, but it's good fun, as I guess most of you guys will agree

@Abula+HFat:
I am a little confused now, what are the advantages of the G530 vs i5-2400? is it only that the i5 will idle lower?

Thanks again everybody for contributing so much to my quest
I haven't been a forum guy, as I had some bad experiences on a lot of sites, not personally but it was unbearable...
Anyway, I am glad I gave it a shot again - you guys are awesome!

[MikeC]

Some of the video is HD mkv, so the Fusion will probably struggle with that?

Not if it's cleanly encoded. With the troublesome HD video files, it's often software-related. My last round of stuttering with a set of TV series files I downloaded was actually solved with a slightly newer video codec for my favorite media player. But more powerful hardware just seems to "work better" even with amateur-encoded video files. But if you're not going to use it as a primary HD video machine, perhaps this is not that big a deal. [/quote]

An aside -- why do you seek low power consumption? To be green or save money?

Well, all of the above really. Electricity is not as cheap in germany as in Canada, unfortunately. If I run a 20W machine 12h/day every day it'll cost me about 20Euros, a 40W will double that of course and the computer is going to be running longer hours than that, so it's not pennies, although I am aware the saving are probably not going to be worth it as setting up the system might be more cost intensive. I do like the idea of doing something for our environment, which is why I want to turn off my high performance machine unless gaming or rendering. Our electricity is not very green, they put up all these wind-power generators, but forgot that they can't really get the energy where it's supposed to go and they burn/rot/whatnot food to produce energy - outrageous but that's politics for you... renewable energy my *** /rant off

Right. 20Euros is a lot! We pay 7 cents per kwh in BC. That 20W/12hr-day/yr would end up costing around $6 for the year.

[Abula]

I am a little confused now, what are the advantages of the G530 vs i5-2400? is it only that the i5 will idle lower?

All the dual core sandy bridge will idle similar, all downclock to the same clocks 1600mhz, but a quad will idle a little higher due that it has 2 more cores, but between let say an i3 2100 and G530, both should idle very similar (aside from more cache, hyperthreading making some small difference), but on load they will be different as you can see in my previous post, my i3 2100T loads at 50W, and tramalls G620 loads at 42W, i think hfat is right, the G530 probably will load a little less... maybe 40W (its just a guess). Now an i5 2400 should load much higher... maybe in the 90s (its only my guess, on my Micromi build i cant says as it has a dedicated gpu), but its much more capable cpu as its quad core. I would go for the highest dual core you can get inside your budget, starting from G530 $50, to G840 $75 to i3 2100 $115 or the new i3 2130 $145, all should idle very similar, just the load will be higher... but also they will be much faster in doing their tasks and returning to idle, again whatever fits you budget should be fine of the above cpus, keys will be to get picoPSU and intel mobo, else you wont end up with an efficient setup, meaning your consumption will be more than it could be.

The good thing about the G530 is that its cheap, i would probably go with this first, test it and see if its good enough for all your required tasks, if you feel you need more or you start doing more stuff that requieres a better cpu, just get a i3 or i5. the rest of the config should be fine as it is, just swapping cpus will make the computer much more capable. Now if you budget allows for i3 then thats also good choice, i personally think its better for the future, but it also cost more than double.

[HFat]

I have to admit, the pricing for the case you suggested is a "little" more than I was hoping for

Which is why you should put *quantitative* requirements forward when you want advice, not just vague adjectives.

The impression I get from what you're saying about the size being important is that you should either:
-build a cheap and fanless Fusion or Atom PC
-build a more powerful PC with a G530 (or similar) which has fans
There's a lot of information on this site about how to make a PC with fans very quiet. Abula's orginal suggestion used a largish case but take a look at Antec's small cases for examples of what you can do with fans (some of them such as the ISK300-65 have been reviewed on this site). The smaller cases tend to be a bit louder though.

My current laptop has a Intel Core 2 Duo T8300 @ 2.40GHz

Different CPUs are faster and slower at different things but I think it's fair to say that CPU sits between the E-350 and the G530. It's probably closer to the G530 but there's a significant difference between all three.
The E-350 packs a decent GPU but the CPU is weak.

Some of the video is HD mkv, so the Fusion will probably struggle with that?

Sorry, but mkv has no bearing on what hardware it takes to decode a file.
Like I said, getting this stuff right is tedious.

the computer is going to be running longer hours than that

You know you can put computers on standby, right? They wake up almost instantly (you need time to spin up the drive and stuff but it's much faster than booting).

I do like the idea of doing something for our environment

In that case you should prefer second-hand hardware. Unless the computer is extremely inefficient, it's the manufacturing that causes most of the damage.

I am a little confused now, what are the advantages of the G530 vs i5-2400? is it only that the i5 will idle lower?

Sorry if that confused you. I don't think you should consider an i5-2400. I only mentionned it to illustrate the point that idle power consumption was only weakly related to how powerful the CPU is. As Abula mentionned, it's not really a drop-in replacement unless you design your PC to accept much hotter CPUs.

keys will be to get picoPSU and intel mobo, else you wont end up with an efficient setup

Nitpick but MSI mobos are nice as well, there are other efficient PSUs and if you pick a pico you need to be careful about the brick selection or you may also end up with a relatively inefficient setup.
The PSU and bricks which come with Antec or Morex low-power cases for instance aren't the best but they're pretty good.

Now if you budget allows for i3 then thats also good choice, i personally think its better for the future, but it also cost more than double.

Second-hand compatible i3s will also be cheaper in the future...

[MikeC]

An Aside:

I have to admit, the pricing for the case you suggested is a "little" more than I was hoping for

Which is why you should put *quantitative* requirements forward when you want advice, not just vague adjectives.

HFat, that's totally unfair! herbertmaier is only answering the question you posed him in the first place!

So I think you should first decide if the cost would be too high for you.
What do you think about that: http://www.silentpcreview.com/HDPLEX_H3.SODD

HFat, why you don't realize that comments like this are nothing but insults? It's an expression of opinion that only belittles the person you address without at all furthering communication -- unless you just want to tell the other that he's inadequate to even ask questions. While your technical, tightly defined advice may be often accurate, comments like this make them double-edged and much less valuable.

When I go to experts for advice, I don't need them to tell me they know more than me on the topic. That's a given, otherwise, I would not be asking them. The overly-general or wrongly-slanted questions of a neophyte become more focused as useful information exchange between him and those he consults progresses -- until a level of understanding satisfactory to the neophyte is reached, thus ending the exchange.

"Quantitative requirements" -- like what codec, what resolution and so on for the videos as you mentioned in an earlier post -- are often nearly impossible to specify when someone is looking at new tasks or goals for the first time... although herbertmaier has already mentioned HD, which automatically means 720p or better resolution. (When I first decided that I wanted to start SPCR, for example, I had only the vaguest notions of what was needed technically, or how to define the goals in pure IT terms. I only knew the end results I wanted to reach, and it took a fair bit of interaction, time and effort with my partners for us to translate those goals into a technical & practical action plan.)

[HFat]

HFat, why you don't realize that comments like this are nothing but insults?

No. Not only do I fail to realize that not knowing someone's budget is insulting: I also firmly believe it's not insulting to tell people they ought to make up their mind about how much they're willing to pay.
Telling how much one is looking to spend doesn't require any of the technical knowledge you attribute to me.

I don't know what your problem is, Mike. If you don't want me to post on your forum, just ask.
Otherwise, I think it would be best if you let people tell me when they believe I've insulted them. Maybe you believe I insulted you. If that's your problem, let's discuss it honestly.

I fully understand requirements are sometimes very hard to specify.
In fact I stated several times I supported Abula's recommendation for that exact reason. My guess is that the OP would be satisfied with an E350 but am I not able to guarantee it so I reckon building a more powerful computer seems prudent.
You mention the video decoding issue. As you know, an E350 is totally capable of playing not only 720p but higher resolutions as well... just not every 720p video you download or stream from wherever. Heavy compression which is not supported by the GPU or the drivers would make the weak CPU choke for instance.

[Arbutus]

As I am new to this low range, low power silent computing, please let me know what you think...

Now that you have decided to go with a "low range, low power" category system I think that your greatest power saving opportunity will be the power supply. Conventional ATX power supplies are down to around 50% efficiency at these low power outputs.

watching (HD) movies

If you will be re-coding videos "on the fly" I don't think you will be happy with anything less than a i3-2100.

[herbertmaier]

In my initial post I was as clear as I was able to and everybody was very helpful to guide me through the process of figuring out what it is I actually need.
So, I totally agree with this statement:

When I go to experts for advice, I don't need them to tell me they know more than me on the topic. That's a given, otherwise, I would not be asking them. The overly-general or wrongly-slanted questions of a neophyte become more focused as useful information exchange between him and those he consults progresses -- until a level of understanding satisfactory to the neophyte is reached, thus ending the exchange.

@Mike:

Right. 20Euros is a lot! We pay 7 cents per kwh in BC. That 20W/12hr-day/yr would end up costing around $6 for the year.

7 cents! OMG, we are so being ripped off... well nothing new there. I remember how surprised I was when I saw my first electricity bill during my stay in the GTA.

@Abula:
Thanks for that extensive list! It'll be very useful when making a final choice.
Just a general interest, how do the sandybridge GPUs compare to the AMD Fusion one, if such a general statement is possible?!

@HFat:

Which is why you should put *quantitative* requirements forward when you want advice, not just vague adjectives.

Well you have been pressing that point and it does make sense, but.. it's just not easy for somebody like me who is not up to speed as to what costs can/should/might be involved. I realize this doesn't make it any easier, but I have no way of knowing what is sensible to spend on the kind of system I am looking for.

Thanks for putting my current laptop into perspective, that will make my final choice a lot easier.

You know you can put computers on standby, right? They wake up almost instantly (you need time to spin up the drive and stuff but it's much faster than booting).

yes, but I work from home a lot and standby is tedious if you use encrypted drives -
oh my.. i just realized... this might be another issue I totally didn't think about. How much is that going to affect performance(using AES encryption)?

In that case you should prefer second-hand hardware. Unless the computer is extremely inefficient, it's the manufacturing that causes most of the damage.

Good point.

Sorry if that confused you. I don't think you should consider an i5-2400. I only mentionned it to illustrate the point that idle power consumption was only weakly related to how powerful the CPU is. As Abula mentionned, it's not really a drop-in replacement unless you design your PC to accept much hotter CPUs.

ok, that's good to know.

Nitpick but MSI mobos are nice as well, there are other efficient PSUs and if you pick a pico you need to be careful about the brick selection or you may also end up with a relatively inefficient setup.
The PSU and bricks which come with Antec or Morex low-power cases for instance aren't the best but they're pretty good.

I have used MSI mobos in the past as well and have been quite happy with them. Good to know they are efficient as well, more options
Can you give any advice on how to choose the brick or name a good brand?

In the past I used AMD and Intel CPUs really rather looking at value for money and nothing else. Is AMD out of the picture(besides the fusion) for what i like to achieve?

On another note, I stumbled across this software and was wondering if you guys know if it actually works as advertised: http://grano.la

[CA_Steve]

yes, but I work from home a lot and standby is tedious if you use encrypted drives -
oh my.. i just realized... this might be another issue I totally didn't think about. How much is that going to affect performance(using AES encryption)?

The E-350 benchmarks at ~92MB/sec when running Truecrypt AES. If you had a modern HDD or SSD, the APU would be the weak link. With an 80GB HDD (that must be ancient), maybe not. Here's some beefier CPUsrunning Truecrypt AES-128. Found another that shows Pentiums and up.

Intel's AES-NI instruction set is available only on the i5, i7 series and not the i3 or Pentium...then again, the Pentiums manage to kick out 200MB/s+, which is faster than any HDD, and middle of the pack for SSDs.