Comments on planned setup please

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Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:41 am

need to bite the bullet...

I think I'll stick with my first choice and go for the ASUS one. I found a description of the fan controller which stated it allows to drive fans at their absolute minimum speed, sounds good enough for me. And else there are still other tricks.

Thanks all very much for your inputs, and I hope to come back here in a while with fine details on this setup :D

Abula
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Abula » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:17 am

Pétur wrote:need to bite the bullet...

I think I'll stick with my first choice and go for the ASUS one. I found a description of the fan controller which stated it allows to drive fans at their absolute minimum speed, sounds good enough for me. And else there are still other tricks.

Thanks all very much for your inputs, and I hope to come back here in a while with fine details on this setup :D
Asus is a fine choice, although i dont think what you read is true, be prepared to test Linux fan software or to use an external fan controller.

Good luck with the build.

Director9
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Director9 » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:41 am

As a linux noob I managed in the end to be able to run pwmconfig and fancontrol on my Asus Z87 board together with a Scythe Mugen 4.

Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:39 pm

System finally build with a nice delay thanks to German postal services sending my ThermalRight HR-01 mounting kit to the wrong country :roll: (and my Dell LCD deciding to give up along the way)

So, this is what I went for in the end:

- case: CoolerMaster Silencio 352 microATX
- PSU: SeaSonic Platinum X-400FL Platinum 400W fanless
- MB: Asus H97M-Plus
- CPU: Intel i7-4790S 65W
- cooling: Thermalright VX BTK II mount kit (reuse HR-01 cooler + nexus 1000RPM fan)
- RAM:2x 8GB DDR3L-1600: crucial BLT2C8G3D1608ET3LX0CEU 8-8-8-24 1.35V
- case fan: re-use nexus 1000RPM (more on that below)
- storage: Crucial 500 M.2 240GB (SSD)

First impressions:
- either the SeaSonic PSU is defective, or it s-u-c-k-s big time. It emits a quite audible and high-pitched electronic buzz. Drives me mad!
(I already contacted SeaSonic support, will see what they say after the weekend)
- I had initially ordered a scythe SY1225SL12M fan, either that was a bad choice or it is fake or equally defective, because I could hear it very well, even at low speed.
- the HR-01 does a great job cooling the i7, under stress things do get hot so I added the nexus fan that was on it in the old system again. Now the CPU is idling at case temp and manages quite quickly to fall back to it after load.
- the Asus fan controller is indeed a bit limited, right now refusing to run the cpu fan at low speed. Good thing the nexus is so quiet it doesn't bother much now (maybe it will when the SeaSonic PSU issue is fixed)
- CoolerMaster Silencio 352 is a nice case, not as cramped as expected. the room at the back was a bit limited for cabling, I ended up stripping the insulation material from the panel to add 1mm of extra room, now the panel closes again.

Will post some pictures and data when I have more time, for now I can say that the whole thing idles at 36W and consumes 116W at full load. Yes I hear you again about that pico PSU :)

quest_for_silence
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:03 pm

Pétur wrote:- either the SeaSonic PSU is defective, or it s-u-c-k-s big time. It emits a quite audible and high-pitched electronic buzz. Drives me mad!

IMO it seems clearly defective.

Pétur wrote:- I had initially ordered a scythe SY1225SL12M fan, either that was a bad choice or it is fake or equally defective, because I could hear it very well, even at low speed.

Without knowing the actual rotating speed, I can only think that either you weren't running that fan at an actually low speed, or alternatively that it was defective (never heard of "fake" Slipstreams).

lodestar
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by lodestar » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:47 am

The Asus H97M-Plus is a great board but in terms of fan control more can be done with PWM fans than 3 pin fans, particularly if as in this case it is a Linux setup and the Windows only Fan Xpert 2+ is unavailable. The issue with 3 pin fans is the all too familiar one that Asus set a minimum speed for the chassis fan headers of 60%, giving a control range in practice of around 7V to 12V. So with a fan like the Scythe SY1225SL12M this gives a minimum idle speed of around 900 rpm; even with the reference Nexus Real Silent at 7V the lowest speed is around 700 rpm.

The other issue is that the HR-01 is perfectly OK as a cooler, but it is narrow, narrower than a 120mm fan. For this reason you could consider fitting it with a Noctua NF-F12 PWM fan, the focussed flow feature of this fan is I think a better match for this cooler. This fan has a nominal speed range of 300 to 1500 rpm. But your board allows a BIOS Silent PWM mode to be set, which means the CPU fan can run from 20% duty cycle upwards. In practice, in a Haswell system this would translate to idle speeds in the 350 to 450 rpm range subject to ambient temperature. The Noctua Redux NF-S12B would be a good choice as an exhaust fan, partly on price and again because it has a nominal speed range of 400 to 1200 rpm. Under idle conditions it would run at around the same speed at the NF-F12. The best way to deploy it would be to use the PWM Y cable supplied with the NF-F12 and run both fans off the PWM CPU header. This would give a two fan PWM chain. Running both in tandem in this way would keep down idle speeds and equally once the CPU was stressed it would elevate the speeds of both fans automatically increasing case airflow. It also means that both fans can be controlled by the CPU fan profile in the BIOS, so thermally controlled fans but with a degree of control as well.

Going the PWM route in this way does not mean that you cannot reuse the Nexus Real Silent, due to one useful feature in the BIOS of the H97M-Plus. If you plug the Nexus into one of the chassis fan headers, in the BIOS manual control can be selected. This gives lower, middle and upper temperature points. These temperature points relate to chassis temperature. The lowest is 40C, so at 40C or below the fan will run at the minimum duty cycle. As noted this is 60% so the reason for doing this might not be clear. However doing this then allows a BIOS option called Allow Fan Stop to be enabled. What Allow Fan Stop does to keep the fan turned off (sets duty cycle to 0%) until the minimum temperature is reached. In other words the intake fan will stay off until the chassis temperature hits 40C (and this number can be increased in the BIOS if required). At that point the minimum 60% speed of around 700 rpm is less of an issue and the cooler air being supplied to the case should help keep temperatures and the speeds of the other fans in check. It means that you don't have to have the noise of a permanently on intake fan but can have the potential advantage of it when it is really needed.
Last edited by lodestar on Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:28 am

Both the slipstream and the nexus ran at about 700 to 800 rpm, the nexus being a whole class more silent. Which is why I doubt it is genuine or in normal state... maybe transport damage.

Once the PSU issue is solved I will be able to look into the fan controls, right now the PSU is more audible than the fans :(

quest_for_silence
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by quest_for_silence » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:19 am

Pétur wrote:Both the slipstream and the nexus ran at about 700 to 800 rpm, the nexus being a whole class more silent. Which is why I doubt it is genuine or in normal state... maybe transport damage.

If the Nexus is spinning around 700rpm, then the supplied voltage is around 7V: but at 7V a Slipstream M usually spins 150-200rpm faster than the Nexus, and that may easily account for the different noise level between them (about 2-3dB, according to the original SPCR findings).

Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:19 am

It sure did sound a lot more than 2-3dB to me...

But what's bothering me most right now is Seasonic EU support not answering my mails. 3 days and no replies is stretching it a bit.

EDIT: got a reply shortly after posting here (and sending a repeat mail). Update MB bios, configure power savings of MB,... oh dear, not sure what that will help.... Next they will ask what OS I use :evil:

quest_for_silence
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:51 am

Pétur wrote:EDIT: got a reply shortly after posting here (and sending a repeat mail). Update MB bios, configure power savings of MB,... oh dear, not sure what that will help.... Next they will ask what OS I use :evil:
When you go into RMA process, you have to go by the book.
Perhaps, alternatively you may try to return the unit to the seller.

xan_user
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by xan_user » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:06 am

weird. seasonics warranty replacement was very painless for me. email'd "i have a one year old, model#xxxx, S/N#xxxx. it has a loud fan, please send a replacement. thanks." they shipped me a new one, and i put the old one in the box and shipped it back.

Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:20 pm

RMA process done, replacement will be shipped.

Note that to be sent the replacement first, I was asked to make a 120 EUR deposit, which I will get back minus paypal fees.
So not quite painless but I rather replace first than send in and wait for the replacement. Oh well, I'll be glad when it works.

I also discovered that the bios fan control of Asus is indeed not so good, at least for the CPU fan: it won't drop below 1000rpm. So I'll probably attach it to the other case fan header, as that one manages to run the nexus at 700rpm. But I won't be able to judge if that is silent enough until the PSU is replaced. :)

quest_for_silence
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:12 pm

Pétur wrote:I also discovered that the bios fan control of Asus is indeed not so good, at least for the CPU fan: it won't drop below 1000rpm.
A shot of the relevant UEFI page would help: anyway, perhaps you should setup something like "Advanced" in the CPU fan profile, in order to control a 3-pin fan (AFAIK/IIRC).

quest_for_silence
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by quest_for_silence » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:56 am

kennethcolon wrote:I am suggesting not to purchase ASUS laptop.... I have it .......my laptop works only 5 months. My laptop's motherboard is gone, the service center people said they have to replace with new mother board. I am waiting from past 3 months... I think it is having worst service i have ever seen.
So what?

xan_user
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by xan_user » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:34 am

kennethcolon wrote:I am suggesting not to purchase ASUS laptop.... I have it .......my laptop works only 5 months. My laptop's motherboard is gone, the service center people said they have to replace with new mother board. I am waiting from past 3 months... I think it is having worst service i have ever seen.
say hey, its an asus troll. just like any big multi-national tech company, sometimes there are mistakes and sometimes you must stay on them.

ive had dozens of asus products with only one failure to date, and it was way outside of warranty. asus still gave me a new mobo, even tho they didnt have to.

Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:23 pm

Seasonic EU support has a bit of a problem... although I explicitly asked that they send the replacement to my work address, not home, so I could receive it, they did ship it to my home address :(

No problem, UPS left a note with the tracking number (which I didn't get from Seasonic). So I altered the location on UPS, scheduled a new delivery next day at work.

Wrong!

In the mean time, for some unknown reason, Seasonic instructed UPS to put delivery on hold. Thank you!

So, although Walter of Seasonic EU is a very friendly and helpfull guy on e-mail, I'm left with bad impressions... bad PSU, clumsy support. Grrrr. That replacement better be good or it will be the first and last Seasonic component ever in my house.

Now let's see if they manage to tell UPS to deliver on monday....

Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:25 am

The replacement Seasonic PSU is working as it should, no more high-pitched noise. They also managed to send me the 460W model, I had a 400W, but I haven't seen any consequences of that.

Overall the noise level is very good, much better even than my old 'silent' setup.

Now I'm probably going to attach the CPU fan to the chassis header in order to bring it down to 500RPM or even 0 if chasis temperature is low. Currently the Asus MB is making the fan run at 1000RPM, maybe need to look into that manual.

even so, the fan noise is very low and barely audible, and this is with the system on the desk, in what is basically a perfect noise amplifier: surrounded by panels on left, right, top and bottom - so any noise it makes gets reflected in some way towards you.

Overall I'm very happy with this build. Core and chassis temperatures never above 35 degrees C during light work :)

(edited: meant CPU fan, not PSU fan)
Last edited by Pétur on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Abula
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Abula » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:09 am

Pétur wrote:Now I'm probably going to attach the PSU fan to the chassis header in order to bring it down to 500RPM or even 0 if chasis temperature is low.
What PSU fan? the X460 is fanless
Pétur wrote:Currently the Asus MB is making the fan run at 1000RPM, maybe need to look into that manual.

even so, the fan noise is very low and barely audible, and this is with the system on the desk, in what is basically a perfect noise amplifier: surrounded by panels on left, right, top and bottom - so any noise it makes gets reflected in some way towards you.
According to Asus website, it comes with ASUS Fan Xpert 2+, have you tried installing the ASUS AI Suite 3 V1.00.78 (under your motherboard webpage, driver/utilities)? On mine, FanXpert2 comes inside AI suite III, one of the tabs/options on top has FanXpert2, just click it and enter, then you search for "tunning", it will test your fans, stablish max and min rpms, then starting voltage, etc. After finishing the test, it will recommend you some rpms graphs based on cpu temp, you can modify this graph to your own liking, really not that hard.

Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:40 am

Abula wrote:
Pétur wrote:Now I'm probably going to attach the PSU fan to the chassis header in order to bring it down to 500RPM or even 0 if chasis temperature is low.
What PSU fan? the X460 is fanless
Hahaha too many PSU troubles... I meant CPU fan of course :D
Abula wrote: According to Asus website, it comes with ASUS Fan Xpert 2+, have you tried installing the ASUS AI Suite 3 V1.00.78 (under your motherboard webpage, driver/utilities)? On mine, FanXpert2 comes inside AI suite III, one of the tabs/options on top has FanXpert2, just click it and enter, then you search for "tunning", it will test your fans, stablish max and min rpms, then starting voltage, etc. After finishing the test, it will recommend you some rpms graphs based on cpu temp, you can modify this graph to your own liking, really not that hard.
Linux system ;)

Abula
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Abula » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:24 am

Pétur wrote:Linux system ;)
Probably loadstar can chip in here, as im not too fond of Asus bios fan control, i believe there are presets like silent, normal, turbo that can limit somewhat the behavior of the fans, i tried it on the past but never liked it, main reason im with MSI now.

In the past few months there have been others with success on Asus and linux using other software, but i dont have any experience here so i cant help you much, search SPCR forums you will find some.

lodestar
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by lodestar » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:08 am

The Asus BIOS Silent mode holds PWM fans down to around 20% duty cycle until the CPU temperature hits 40C. After that point is reached the profile starts to raise the duty cycle quite sharply, reflecting that higher CPU temperatures are normally reached under load conditions where more airflow is required. The main advantage of the BIOS Silent profile is that it is operating system independent, so it works with Linux as here. The Asus BIOS does provide thermal control of 3 pin voltage controlled fans as well and the Silent profile can be applied to chassis fans. However the minimum duty cycle for chassis fans is around 60%, roughly equivalent to 7V.

In practice there are two things to watch with the Asus Silent profile. The first is that enough case airflow is provided under idle or low system stress conditions to keep the CPU temperature under 40C. This is less difficult with Haswell CPUs that undervolt to 0.7V and underclock to 800 Mhz in this scenario. The second is that once a maximum CPU temperature is reached, typically 75C, Asus motherboard thermal control will set all fans to 100% duty cycle i.e. full speed. The easiest way to cope with these two extremes is to use a PWM CPU fan. A 3 pin voltage fan could be used to cool a CPU using the chassis Silent profile, but the 60% duty cycle limitation will normally result in higher idle speeds than can be achieved with PWM fans such as the Noctua 120mm range.

The other issue that arises with the motherboard in this system and some other boards made by Asus is the BIOS Fan Stop option. This allows a fan connected to a chassis fan header to stay turned off until a set temperature is reached. Fan Xpert 2 onwards implements this feature in software, again for chassis fan headers only. It looks feasible to connect a 3 pin CPU cooler fan to this header, and effectively have a passive CPU cooler where the fan will only turns on under load. However this does not seem to work particularly well in practice. Probably because the motherboard thermal control cannot respond to the sharp rise in CPU temperature quickly enough to prevent the CPU hitting the 75C point and triggering an all fans to full response. Part of the reason is turbo modes. The CPU here for example is the Haswell i7 4770S. As an i7 it has 4 real and 4 virtual cores. It is a 3.2 Ghz part which turbos to 4.0 Ghz. Intel turbo modes typically should only allow for one core to reach the maximum speed, but some board manufactures apply it to all cores. So even with the Thermalright HR-01 which was designed originally as a passive cooler trying to use it with a Haswell processor such as this one, under load, with BIOS Fan Stop is not likely to succeed. Using the HR-01 with a PWM fan, such as the Noctua NF-F12 will work and the idle speeds of this fan when used with the BIOS Silent module can be low enough to be effectively silent.

Pétur
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Re: Comments on planned setup please

Post by Pétur » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:06 am

The final tweaking had been put on the backburner for a while, but today I took some time to tweak...

Currently went for this setup:

CPU fan is 3-pin nexus, attached to chassis 1 connector.
I have it configured in the bios for always on (DC, so quite high minimum speed), but I put an old zalman fancontroller inline and set it to 500RPM which is inaudible for me. It is set to ramp up when temperature rises above 50 degrees celcius.

I also have one chasis fan at the front intake, and since that one is a tiny bit audible even at low speed due to air flow, it is configured to stay off until chasis temp rises above 50 degrees celcius.

The result is that with light to moderate use, the system is silent.
Under constant load, the noise is acceptable, and since it is seldom in such a condition I do not care that much (one of the use cases is DVD/CD ripping, where the optical drive easily becomes the noisiest part)

My final conclusion is that I'm extremely happy with this system, it is fast, boots in seconds (grub to login in less than five, running Debian Testing).

Thanks for all the comments and guidings!

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