Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

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Terentino
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Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Terentino » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:33 am

Hi guys
I am looking to build a new gaming PC and would need your advice on what components to use.

The idea is I want a PC to last for 4-5 years without much investment in it. I am not a hardcore gamer but like to play and test the latest games. Mostly I play Starcraft 2 and Heroes of the Storm.
Not interested in overclocking but would like to have this as an option (sometimes I like to test OC etc.)

With this in mind I would like your suggestion on the following:
Budget: ~2500$ (can be extended to 3000$ if neeeded)

Hardware:
CPU: Intel Core i7 6700K
Mainboard: waiting for 2-3 suggestions
Memory: 2-3 suggestions (should be 16GB at least, not sure if 2x8GB or 4x4GB mean much for performance)
Video Card: Geforce GTX980Ti (suggestion on Brand and model. As quiet as posible but overclocked).
SSD: should be M.2: Samsung 950 Pro or similar (256GB or 512GB)
PSU: suggestions (modular, quiet, powerfull but efficient).

COOLING:
CPU Cooler: Perhaps fanless if case cooling is enough or something efficient and quiet.
Case: mid or full tower (easy to work with, good build, keep inside cool and dust free, DUST FILTERS).

That would be it.
I know I am asking a lot but this is what I would like to spend money on.

Thanks and looking forward for your suggestions.

CA_Steve
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:25 am

Welcome to SPCR.

You've left out the most important detail: What's your monitor resolution?

Abula
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Abula » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:14 am

Will you be using any storage 3.5 drives? or just ssds?

Terentino
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Terentino » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:56 am

Hi guys,

thanks a lot for your replies. Nice to be here :).

No idea how I forgot to mention about the resolution. My current monitor only support 1080p but I plan to buy a new one in the coming year (perhaps 3k or 4k).
I won't need 3.5 drives. Only 1 SSD M2 or SATA (will have to decide).

For the moment I have the following options for video card:
1. go with GTX 980 TI:
- EVGA GTX 980 Ti Classified ACX 2.0+ or Palit GTX 980 TI Super Jetstream. Heard the Palit runs more silent.

2. go with GTX 970 and wait for next gen Nvidia (Pascal) sometime next year:
- EVGA GTX 970 FTW ACX 2.0 (GM204, 4GB) or ZOTAC GTX 970 AMP! Extreme Core Edition (GM204, 4GB). Not sure which one runs more silent

As for the case the most important factors are:
- dampened as much as posible
- i would prefer no window
- good airflow and good cooling inside
- dust filter everywhere (or almost everywhere).

edh
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by edh » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:33 am

Terentino wrote:Only 1 SSD M2 or SATA (will have to decide).
I would strongly suggest M.2. No cabling, very fast, smallest form factor and in time the ability to become substantially cheaper than other form factors.

Quinnbeast
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Quinnbeast » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:34 am

Generally speaking, it may well be more cost effective to buy a GPU to match your current resolution for short/mid term use. A 970 or even 960 will work perfectly well for as long as you have your 1080p screen. Unless you're running 1440p or above now or in the near future, the 980Ti will be overkill. It's still early days for single GPUs to handle 4K screens comfortably, hence why only the high-end cards are worth considering (unless you're going SLI).

If you're not in a rush to replace your monitor, I'd hold off on major GPU purchase until the tech has caught up a little. Perhaps if I had a little more disposable income, my opinion may be subject to change. ;)

Terentino
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Terentino » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:40 am

Thanks

Yep, I am not in a rush to change the monitor and I think I will go with a GTX 970. Which one would be the quiets and fastest? :)

Memory: I think I will go with 2x8GB or 2x16GB G.Skill Trident Z (3000 or 3200).
CPU: i7 6700k
PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA P2 860 or Corsair Netzteil AX860i ?
Motherboard: no idea
Case: no idea
CPU Cooler: probably the Noctua NH-D15 ?

Waiting for your input guys :). Thanks!

Quinnbeast
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Quinnbeast » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:12 am

Variations in 970 performance will be within 1% or so at stock speeds, although certain cards are slightly better at getting a steady overclock due to cooler design and power handling. That said, overclocking is largely counter-intuitive to a quiet setup and unnecessary for 1080p output.

If I was buying a 970 today, I'd go for the MSI Gaming (Twin Frozr) with the Asus STRIX as an outside consideration. From my experience of recent MSI coolers and the feedback I've read regarding both cards, the MSI would marginally be my preferred option from an acoustics point of view while also being a few frames faster on average. Both will be very quiet/silent when idle or at modest load, but the MSI uses slightly biggest fans and can get away with a lower RPM under heavy load.

Irrelevant
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Irrelevant » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:58 am

Terentino wrote:Yep, I am not in a rush to change the monitor and I think I will go with a GTX 970.
I've been looking to buy a new GPU myself, and it looks to me like only the tippity-toppest GPUs (eg, Titan or Fury) can handle 4K without going SLI. No way they'll handle 4K five years from now. On the flip side, most $200-$300 GPUs will get 60fps at 1080p on pretty much every game out there right now, even with detail levels cranked. Go with a 3-4GB card if you plan on staying at 1080p for more than a couple years.
Terentino wrote:Memory: I think I will go with 2x8GB or 2x16GB G.Skill Trident Z (3000 or 3200).
I'd recommend going with 2x16GB. 4K gaming is a major memory hog, so 4-5 years from now, 32GB might start to get a little tight. Either way, I'd recommend saving $$$ and going with slower RAM. System RAM speed has virtually no impact on game performance in systems with discrete GPUs, and though that might change with DX12, I doubt it. You're better off putting your money elsewhere.
Terentino wrote:PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA P2 860 or Corsair Netzteil AX860i ?
Unless you plan on doing SLI or serious overclocking, 860W is way overkill, and when it comes to PSUs, overkill means lower efficiency and usually more noise. Use one of the many PSU calculators out there to find the right size. If you're feeling profligate, add ~100W to the recommendation for some wiggle room.
Terentino wrote:Motherboard: no idea
Case: no idea
What form factor are you looking at? ATX is easiest to work with (fewer compatibility issues with ginormous CPU coolers, for example), allows for more overclocking potential, and is more expandable/flexible, but loses out big-time on weight, size, and cost to mITX. If you're planning on staying single-GPU and keeping your overclocking mild, I'd go with mITX.
Terentino wrote:CPU Cooler: probably the Noctua NH-D15 ?
Unless you overclock pretty hard or can't be bothered to adjust fan profiles (in which case, shame on you :D), there are smaller, lighter, and cheaper coolers that will out-perform the D15. The Scythe Ninja 4 would probably be ideal, if you can find it. Otherwise, I'd go with the Thermalright HR-02 or the Scythe Kotetsu.

Terentino
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Terentino » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:14 pm

@Irrelevant thanks a lot for suggestions!

Yeah, I will stay with GTX 970, won't invest in a new monitor for the next 12 months. Just need to figure out which is the best out there. Would love to get the MSI Gaming Gold one but can't find it anywhere.

DDR: I'll go with 2x16GB G.Skill Trident Z (2800 or 3000). They have pretty good timings.

Motherboard: ATX would be the preferred choice (what about ASUS Z170-Deluxe, MSI Z170A Gaming M7, AsRock Z170 Extreme7+ or ASUS Maximus VIII Hero this one is even tested with the G.Skills)

Cooler: what do you think about the Noctua NH-U14S? I`ve seen good reviews for it.

I have no interest in overclock. Perhaps just for curiosity from time to time but I prefer to keep everything stock or OC from manufacturer.

Still not sure what PSU and case :).

CA_Steve
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:53 pm

Ok, here's some contrary advice.

- Save money and get the GTX 960. It'll max out any Blizzard game at 1080p. You might have to scale back AA/AF/etc for other games, but spending more than $200 now when you are going to replace the monitor with a 4k a year from now (after Pascal arrives) is a waste. MSI Gaming version is the best.

- An i7 is overkill. Blizzard games run excellent with just a fast dual core as do many others. Having four physical cores (i5) is still the sweet spot for more demanding games. While some can make use of more cores, they don't get much fps gains out of it. Go with i5-6600 if no OC and i5-6600K otherwise.

- 2 x 4GB of RAM is fine unless you do a lot of photoediting or video or 3D rendering, etc work. Sometime down the road you may have a use for more, and that's what those two other RAM slots are for. Buying it now is just an appendix.

- mobo: I like the Asus Z170A and Z170 Gaming for their feature set, Intel NIC, and awesome fan conrols within UEFI.

- cooler: no overvolting, then go with Scythe Kotetsu.

- case: Fractal Design Define R5 is a favorite if you like mid tower cases.

- SSD: m.2 or not m.2? As a gamer, you won't notice the difference in practice between a current gen PCIe SSD and a decent current gen SATA SSD. Yeah, benchmarks look great, but any SSD out there can handle gaming storage queries and load time differences are minimal. For today's build I'd lean toward a SATA SSD just for better cooling over the m.2 form factor up against the mobo. Something like the Samsung 850 EVO would work well.

Terentino
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Terentino » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:19 pm

Hi CA_Steve, thanks for your reply.

The idea is that I won't be using the PC strictly for gaming. It is build with gaming in mind but I do like to play with photo editing from time to time and do at least once a week VMware/Microsoft courses (4-5 virtual machines). Thats why I7 6700k and 32GB RAM :).

DECIDED:
CPU: i7 6700K + Noctua NH-U14S (should be enough for stock speeds and maybe a little of OC experimenting)

RAM: G.Skill Trident Z 2x16GB DDR4-2800(CL14-14-14-35) or DDR4-3000 (CL15-15-15-35). Better go for lower timings or Mhz

Video Card: GTX 970 (still need to decide what brand and model)

SSD: M.2 Samsung 950 PRO

NOT DECIDED:
Motherboard: research / waiting for recommendations
PSU: research / waiting for recommendations
Case: research / waiting for recommendations

Thanks again to all of you for your time and answers.
If any ideas, recommendations pop up please let me know :)

Irrelevant
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Irrelevant » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:59 pm

CA_Steve wrote:An i7 is overkill. Blizzard games run excellent with just a fast dual core as do many others. Having four physical cores (i5) is still the sweet spot for more demanding games.
Perhaps at the moment, but I'm not sure that will be true 4-5 years from now. Developers are getting much better at multi-threading and DX12 looks to speed that process some.
CA_Steve wrote:2 x 4GB of RAM is fine unless you do a lot of photoediting or video or 3D rendering, etc work. Sometime down the road you may have a use for more, and that's what those two other RAM slots are for.
Using dissimilar RAM is asking for trouble, even different sets of the exact same make and model (eg, buying two 2x16GB sets instead of one 4x16GB set), and trying to match RAM 4-5 years apart is really asking for trouble. Yeah, it might work, but RAM issues can be tricky, the kind of tricky that has you banging your head against the wall for hours/weeks/months before you realize the RAM's at fault.
CA_Steve wrote:For today's build I'd lean toward a SATA SSD just for better cooling over the m.2 form factor up against the mobo. Something like the Samsung 850 EVO would work well.
FYI, SSD's cope really well with heat. Unlike HDD's, where failure rates double or triple when you exceed 40C, you'll probably crash your system well before your M.2 SSD starts to suffer.

quest_for_silence
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:37 pm

Irrelevant wrote:failure rates double or triple when you exceed 40C
That's not correct.

Irrelevant wrote:you'll probably crash your system well before your M.2 SSD starts to suffer.

That doesn't look like a good reason to dump heat against the mobo.

Terentino
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Terentino » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:57 pm

Guys, thanks a lot for your help and recomandations.

I kinda also decided on the motherboard, PSU and Case.

Asus Maximus VIII Hero or Ranger
PSU: Super Flower Leadex Platinum (650W or 750W)
Case: Fractal Design R5

What do you think? About the case is it worht to exchage the fans that come with? And perhaps add 1-2 more? If yes what model (Noctua?) And where to mount the extra ones?.

Thanks

sschnee
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by sschnee » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:49 am

Cost doesn't seem to be much of a concern for you, but if you're not using any HDDs, the Fractal Design S might be as good as the R5, at a lower price.

Terentino
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Terentino » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:56 am

You are right, cost is not really a problem but I like having limits.
I won't be using any 2.5" or 3.5" drives so all cages will go out. I was thinking of installing 2x140mm Noctua fans in front for blowing air inside and at the back 1x140mm Noctua for exhaust. Should be enough?

What's the big difference between S and R5?

LongJan
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by LongJan » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:26 am

Irrelevant wrote:FYI, SSD's cope really well with heat. Unlike HDD's, where failure rates double or triple when you exceed 40C
From Wikipedia:
A 2007 study published by Google suggested very little correlation between failure rates and either high temperature or activity level.
Indeed, the Google study indicated that "one of our key findings has been the lack of a consistent pattern of higher failure rates for higher temperature."
The Samsung 950 Pro will downclock itself to keep the temperature down (Swedish test)
Image

Terentino
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Terentino » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:41 am

Thanks a lot guys, I have managed to order almost everything besides the CPU (i7 6700K). Can't find it on stock anywhere (Germany, Switzerland)

The system looks like this:

CPU: i7 6700k + Noctua NH-U14S Cooler
Mainboard: Asus Maximus VIII Hero
RAM: G.SKILL TridentZ, 32GB (2x16GB PC2800 @ 14-14-14-35-2N)
Video Card: MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G
SSD: Samsung 950 PRO 512GB SSD
PSU: Super Flower Leadex 80 Plus Platinum 650W
Case: Fractal Define R5 Black

Thanks again everyone!

xan_user
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by xan_user » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:31 pm

where (HDD) failure rates double or triple when you exceed 40C
where exactly do people come up with this completely wrong factoid? and why is it so prevalent? :?

Irrelevant
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Irrelevant » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:38 am

xan_user wrote:
where (HDD) failure rates double or triple when you exceed 40C
where exactly do people come up with this completely wrong factoid? and why is it so prevalent? :?
First, because that's the way the Google study's results were initially reported: with hyperbole and oversimplification. As usual, the truth was complicated, and no one likes complicated, not even me, no matter how hard I try to convince myself otherwise. My bad.

Second, because it's not completely wrong, just mostly wrong. The relationship between temperature and failure-rate changes with age, and the differences are nowhere near that extreme (in fact, most of the time, they're insignificant), but there is a relationship, there are differences, they are consistent, and you really can't go wrong by keeping your drives between 30C and 40C. Section 3.4 of the study makes that quite clear.

So why do people believe my mostly wrong factoid to be completely wrong? For much the same reasons I believed it was completely right. Somewhere along the way, the conclusion referenced in the Wikipedia article LongJan quoted escaped proper context and became a carrier for falsehood. Unfortunately, I'm not finding the right words to supply the proper context, so you'll have do what I did and read the relevant sections if you want to continue this argument in a reasoned fashion.

quest_for_silence
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by quest_for_silence » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:52 am

Irrelevant wrote:Second, because it's not completely wrong, just mostly wrong.

Is there any real difference?

Irrelevant wrote:The relationship between temperature and failure-rate changes with age, and the differences are nowhere near that extreme (in fact, most of the time, they're insignificant), but there is a relationship, there are differences, they are consistent

Google's study just pointed out a possible correlation with 3-years old drives, but given that correlation is less strong for 4-years drives personally I won't say that those possible relationships are that "consistent".

Irrelevant wrote:you really can't go wrong by keeping your drives between 30C and 40C.

So what about those drives which cannot be kept between 30°C and 40°C, like high speed or enterprise ones?

Irrelevant wrote:Section 3.4 of the study makes that quite clear.

Please: "We first look at the correlation between average temperature during the observation period and failure... The figure shows that failures do not increase when the average temperature increases... We can conclude that at moderate temperature ranges it is likely that there are other effects which affect failure rates much more strongly than temperatures do."

xan_user
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by xan_user » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:08 am

If a drive is run within its spec'ed temperature range, then there should be no issue with heat (or cold) affecting longevity. same with GPU/CPU/MOBO/RAM.
being cooler (than specs) isnt always better, its just um, cooler. 8)

Irrelevant
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by Irrelevant » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:47 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
Irrelevant wrote:Second, because it's not completely wrong, just mostly wrong.
Is there any real difference?
Sure, because if it's all wrong, there's only one thing you can do: go through its pockets for loose change. :lol:
quest_for_silence wrote:So what about those drives which cannot be kept between 30°C and 40°C, like high speed or enterprise ones?
Point. If significantly different methods/materials were used in manufacturing such drives, their response to temperature might also be significantly different.

But this is SPCR. How likely is that to be relevant?
quest_for_silence wrote:Google's study just pointed out a possible correlation with 3-years old drives, but given that correlation is less strong for 4-years drives personally I won't say that those possible relationships are that "consistent".
quest_for_silence wrote:Please: "We first look at the correlation between average temperature during the observation period and failure... The figure shows that failures do not increase when the average temperature increases... We can conclude that at moderate temperature ranges it is likely that there are other effects which affect failure rates much more strongly than temperatures do."
:sigh:

First, let's sort out some semantics. If by "consistent" you mean "does not change with HDD age," then okay, fine, you're right, consistency is not proven. Fig.4 gets wobbly past 40C and with some wild error bars. What I meant by "consistent" was "reliably follows a pattern, when age is factored in," and yeah, that's proven. Wild error bars or not, Fig.5 makes that pretty clear.

Second, what do they mean by "moderate temperature?" Given the probability density shown in Fig.4 and that they neglect to mention the much higher AFR at <30C (which, if you'll notice, has far larger sample sizes than the >40C range), could they mean something like, oh, say, 30-40C?

Third, check the pattern. The temp range with lowest AFR is either 35-40C (before the third year) or 30-35C (third and fourth year), and the overall minimum, regardless of age, is around 38C. Yeah, it's really hard to tell the difference in the 35C+ range in years two and three, but overall, the winner's still 30-40C, and you have to wonder how much is hidden by the small sample sizes in the >40C range.

And fourth, prior studies. I only know of two, and one of them was very poorly designed (Backblaze), but the other was firmly on the side of lower HDD temperature (Microsoft).

So yeah, >40C is probably bad for your drive, just not nearly as bad as I said it was, or as bad as <30C ... aaaaaannd we've hijacked the thread. :oops:

CA_Steve
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:13 pm

Yeah, you guys are off in the weeds. :)

xan_user
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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by xan_user » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:31 pm

CA_Steve wrote:Yeah, you guys are off in the weeds. :)
speaking of out in the weeds... what was that device called that kept your fans running for a set time after you shut down your PC, so it would "SAFELY cool down components after powering down." ? :mrgreen:

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Re: Gaming PC (AIR+QUIET) - Please advise

Post by quest_for_silence » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:05 am

Irrelevant wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:
Irrelevant wrote:Second, because it's not completely wrong, just mostly wrong.
Is there any real difference?
Sure, because if it's all wrong, there's only one thing you can do: go through its pockets for loose change. :lol:

That looks like a non-sense: in science any assumption is either false or true, not just "so-and-so". :wink:

Irrelevant wrote:But this is SPCR. How likely is that to be relevant?

Whenever we are, I don't want any straight but not correct affirmation remains unquestioned.
Said that, some of those drives, like the Seagate Constellation (now renamed, IIRC) or the WD Velociraptor are often used by some co-forumers (even by me).

Irrelevant wrote:What I meant by "consistent" was "reliably follows a pattern, when age is factored in," and yeah, that's proven. Wild error bars or not, Fig.5 makes that pretty clear.

That's (just) your analysis of their data, not their data: their data says that temperature is not a factor (compare that Fig. 5 at 3 years against the Fig. 3 at 3 years).
BTW, why, according to you, most of consumer drives has a 2-years warranty? I don't need an answer, my question is just food for wondering.

Irrelevant wrote:Second, what do they mean by "moderate temperature?"

Below 50°C.

Irrelevant wrote:So yeah, >40C is probably bad for your drive, just not nearly as bad as I said it was, or as bad as <30C

You can't say anything more than what they said: temperature in their study (those drives, that utilization, those temperatures, that age) is not (proven to be) a factor. As a matter of fact, Seagate apply a temperature derating factor to estimate the declared AFR for their drives: their minimum derating factor sits at 25°C, likely where Google found a comparatively higher mortality.

Irrelevant wrote:aaaaaannd we've hijacked the thread. :oops:
So, would you mind to give a rest to it? I'll do. :wink:

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