Latest Build:
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/ZgmnfH
Hey all - sorry for the massive delay in response. Lots of stuff in real-life distracted, but all good things (work promotion, 1 year anniversary with gf, surprise award ceremony at work, etc.) Anyway, I've been doing a lot more reading and investigating and have updated the build list (link below) and look forward to any input you all have.
I plan to purchase everything this Sunday, btw.
lodestar wrote:The P600 fans are 3-pin, the built-in case fan splitter supports 3 x 3-pin/4 x 4-pin (PWM)/1 x 3-pin or 4-pin (PWM). The main issue with splitters, with for example PWM fans is that all the fans run at the same PWM % duty cycle settings. With the same make and type of fans this will be the same speed.
This was very helpful, thank you! When you all talk about setting manual fan curves however, are you using identical fan speeds? I am planning on doing the 4 separately bought fans (Silent Wings 3) to optimize matters. However, given 3 on the front (intake) and 1 in the back (exhaust), it seems I'd have very skewed pressure operating at identical speeds. Would probably want for the exhaust fan to be at a higher compensatory RPM...am I thinking about this all wrong?
CA_Steve wrote:A well designed case with window will not be appreciably louder than one without (sub 1 dB difference when the Fractal R5 was tested)...(refer to my comment on not buying a CPU/mobo until a few months after intro)
Perfect, thanks! And definitely not going PCIe 4.0 mobos right off the bat. I assume you all caught the announcement really of the first 4.0 board finally hitting shelves on May 27th?
https://i.redd.it/fd67so585es21.jpg
teodoro wrote:re: ultrawides, if you've used one before and didn't like it fair enough. I sit about 18-20 inches from mine and look at it about 10 hours a day--I don't notice any significant difference in eye/neck movement coming from a 24" screen but I also have been running 2-3 monitors for quite a while now. I think in all the 2018 and later games I've played, the developers were wise to leave the UI elements (mini map, ammo count, etc.) in the same position as if it were a 16:9 screen so no important information is too far in the periphery. though there's something to be said for leaving the genie in the bottle--playing on that 24" panel/games that don't support ultrawide now feels super cramped. if you haven't had the opportunity to see one in person it might be worth the trip if one is on display in a local store. I have noticed lately that the IPS screen handles dark netflix content much better than my 24" TN panel which tends to have some blotchy blacks/dark greys.
This is very helpful, thank you! I am planning to find a store to try out some monitors tomorrow to make the most informed decision I can. I have been doing tons more reading (tftcentral, limscave, blurbusters, testufo, etc.) and feel pretty confident in my 27" selection. I do have an UW 29" in a box at home here, so I pulled it out last week and watched Rainbow Six Siege (RS6) pro players duke it out for a few hours. I experimented with a measuring tape at various distances and found I was displeased with the long horizontals, as too many details fell outside my cone of acute vision (i.e. peripherals). This became clear when pro players were reacting to situations in-game that I didn't process a need to react to, because it was in my furthest peripheral vision to left/right of screen. When I modified aspect ratios and replayed those parts (or simply turned my head to make it non-peripheral), I didn't have that problem. As a result, I've mostly narrowed my consideration to either a 27" or a 24". In so far as the IPS vs TN matter goes, I've decided to accept a bit of input lag and stick with IPS, as it's not all about FPS (or even gaming) at the end of the day. And in that same line of thinking, I'd probably stick with the 27", thus going 24" TN in a future monitor, if I really feel I need it...at which point I'll have three monitors, given the 29", haha.
teodoro wrote:re: gpus, the strix is the clear winner if you don't want to set a software fan curve (by msi afterburner or the like), as the 'silent' bios setting will be significantly quieter than the evga's bios fan curve. it basically just raises the temperature target, allowing the fans to relax. but it looks like you're comfortable making those tweaks, in which case I'd say buy whichever card looks better/is cheaper/is the company you wish to support. price being equal, I'd likely choose the evga because 1.) the temperature sensors are neat 2.) the few times I've talked to evga support I've been impressed and 3.) I briefly had a 2080 strix which had noticeable fan bearing/motor noise. either way, you'll then find out what fan speed produces your acceptable noise ceiling and if you're comfortable with thermals, set a curve to that point and you're done. if not, I had excellent results overclocking/undervolting my 2080 msi trio so that it maintains good boost clocks (steady 1920mhz) at substantially lower voltage than stock, resulting in ~73 degrees with only 35% fan speed. basically I'm trading the OC performance boost for less gpu fan noise (which is definitely the loudest component in my system).
I'll stick with the Strix then. I do think the EVGA is perhaps better though, given their pre-OC'd models are 20% OC'd, as opposed to Strix's 15% OC'd. Read numerous reviews of people trying to replicate EVGA's 20% on the Strix and most couldn't, so it's likely a silicon lottery issue here. A 5% OC comes with a ~6.5% thermal increase, btw. In any case, while I am willing to play with fan curves, if I can be pleased with a preset, then that would be nice - and I can get into granular improvements later. I kind of think of this as being along the lines of using XMP profiles 1/2 versus manual tweaking, for RAM. The latter can give far more pronounced improvements,
relatively speaking. In absolute terms, it's not a massive deal. Just something to do for fun and squeeze out some more efficiency, as I think any of us who get into the tech weeds like this probably get some enjoyment from.
teodoro wrote:re: cases, I think you'll be best served by whichever well-built product looks best to you. I'm using a solid panel define r6 and like it a lot. with my fans now dialed in (<= 800rpm a12x25 intakes, <= 1000rpm a12x25 exhaust and cpu cooler, <= 1200rpm gpu fans) it's very quiet at load and "is this thing on?" at idle. once you hit that level of (non) noise, the GPU whine becomes more noticeable. I've played around with popping the r6 top and side panels off under load--they don't matter too much for fan noise (because they're already at or below my noise floor) but they do have some impact on coil whine. it's not a night-and-day difference, though, and since I'm generally using headphones when the gpu is under load/whining, I don't think it's too important. undervolting my gpu had a much bigger impact in reducing coil whine volume. I wouldn't hesitate about using a well sealed TG panel.
From my original post, I was pretty pleased with most of those cases. The Phantek P600S that came up as a result of this thread also looks fun to me, so I am happy to adopt it as the winner! Regarding your comments on different fan speeds, how are you managing this? (this is in reference to the question I posed at the top of this post to teodoro) - are you not using 4-pin fans? Or, are you using a different/better fan controller, which I should consider acquiring? As for the whine noise, I imagine I'd only hear that when the system is under load AND my components aren't running loud/hot. I'll be shocked if my build is quiet enough, given its heavy gaming focus, to have me hear it...it sounds as if your build may not be far off however, so maybe I need to re-think this...not much can be done about coil whine from other resources I've read, however.
Abula wrote:Memory has very little impact on gaming, if thats your only use then save and go with something like
Ballistix 16GB Sport LT Series DDR4 2666 MHz UDIMM Memory Kit (2 x 8GB, Gray), it was more into that you were overspending on the PSU and that if that was the case, was better spent on the memory. For some, they say 3000 is enough, for other 3200 say its the sweatspot, others swear by going into 4k+, the reality is that gaming gains very little on memory, but other apps do benefit, here its up to you to decide weather or not you will benefit with your load of programs and your budget.
FYI - Spent a ton more time delving into RAM, its capabilities, its importance for my use cases, etc. I've opted for a 3200Mhz, CL16, as per your original suggestion. In the future, I may consider manually tweaking it, if the die is good.
You'll notice in my build list at the top that RAM is my only unsolved question, however. Besides trying to figure out the best die (1usmus has a good post on why "Hynix CFR" would be best), which I can't find listed on manufacturer spec pages anywhere...I've got a possible incompatibility issue with my CPU Cooler (Dark Rock Pro 4). DRP4's fan clearance is 40mm, but Ripjaw is 42mm tall...do you know if RAM heights are "actual" versus "real" (would imagine it's shorter once installed into the mobo, after all). I found this post (https://www.overclock.net/forum/246-air ... st23232751) that would indicate RAM height from manufacturer can be subtracted by 5mm, due to installation. I've also read DRP4 has adjustable clamps for fan height positioning, so maybe this is a moot point, provided RAM sits entirely under the fans and not under the heatsink (obviously not adjustable). I don't know if that's true or not with the DRP4, although this post (https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/10 ... rk-rock-4/) the last commenter indicates the built-in fin lip provides 45-46mm of clearance, due to heatsink sitting over the 1st memory slot on each side. I knew of the lip from manufacturer sizing specs, but they hadn't provided measurements, so I've been unable to substantiate this.
Abula wrote:Steve/Abula - GPU: EVGA/FTW3 versus Strix...I try if possible to avoid using software to control things, simply its not reliable always, sometimes there are conflicts or timeouts and still its resources being used on something that i can avoid. So my preference for Asus atm is because they are doing their vbios fine, only manufacturer that its including two bios, and one of them benefits us quiet seekers, without the need for MSI afterburner or EVGA Precision. But if you are going to overclock you will need the software, unless you are a gpu vbios master on editing (not recommended), if you do use it, then go with whatever you want and plan your fan curves according to your peformance/noise desires, certainly the EVGA FTW3 looks like a very capable card, just to me they have a too aggressive fan curve on their bios, but i understand why, they have to plan for systems that might not have good ventilation so a more aggressive curve will sustain their hardware better, and im sure asus agrees, but having two vbios does allow to have it both ways, without needing software, personally on the GPU i don't overclock anymore, the GPU boost to me its good enough. Btw that 20% promo on the Asus is really nice, that should put it around 1095, which is still expensive, but certainly easier to swallow than $1400 of the EVGA.
That makes total sense! I hadn't consider FTW's reasoning for going so much louder in their default fan curve, until you mentioned their planning for many having poor air flow cases. I suppose many people are also using closed-back headphones and not worried about more sound, either. Asus' Strix wins!
Abula wrote:Steve/Abula - SSD: Intel 660p...I'm not gona comment more here, if you think its the right choice, go for it, i know very little about VM and i dont know your typical workflow/usage, intel has never released a bad ssd in my experience, so im sure you will be fine.
FYI - I'd given this a lot more thought since we spoke about this. My views on 2x660p (likely in raid 0) haven't changed, so I've left it alone. However, concerns over my VM plans were significant enough that I've opted to add a third M.2. I opted for the 970 EVO Plus, after finding it performed better than the 970 EVO and 970 PRO. The write-life is so high as it is, with its now lesser usage (given remainder of 2x660p), that I foresee it likely outliving me! I had agonized on comparing it to P12 controllers, like Corsair's MP510, which ran a bit cheaper. Honestly, probably would have been perfectly fine with that, but decided to go a bit bigger in performance here, at a slightly elevated thermal/power draw, given its far greater consistency/out-performance in most measures (per anadtech comparison). I think I'll be pretty pleased with this build, although it did add a pretty penny to my build cost. I debated going 2 TB for greater storage, but with a maximum 300 GB allocated to host OS + personal files, that leaves me ~700 GB to split 10-ways for VMs (so, 70 GB each), which is 2.3x how much I planned on needing. So, lots of headroom leftover for whatever the future might bring, plus it performs quite admirably in all anadtech tested scenarios, even when storage is maxed out (unlike the 660p).
Abula wrote:Abula/Steve - Ryzen CPU:...I agree, intel z390 is more mature and should have little bugs, but do remember this hybrid soldier cpus run hot, they can still cooled by air fine, but OCing with air on them... would be hard to keep quiet.
Can you please elaborate on this? It was my understanding solder did a good job of conducting heat, so I'm unclear as to the limitation you're describing here. As it currently stands, if the build is sufficiently quiet, I will likely be OCing the CPU, so this does matter to me. Although, it might be moot, as the performance results for the i7-9700k still blow away the i9s and i7-<9700k.
Abula wrote:Abula - Case/Fans: Phantek Eclipse P600...I'm not at home to show you with a picture, but there are both type of headers on the board (not physically but on the bios settings), if im not mistaken, i believe is CPU_FAN2/Wpump and CHA_FAN3 that both are switchable, inside the bios under hardware monitor tab, you will find on the bottom the headers, this headers have a PWM by defult, but you can change them to DC if you need to, the other headers are autodetect so you dont have to do anything. I always recommend to test the included fans first to see if they good enough for each user, but certainly the BeQuiet BL067 are very good fans, thats my prefered fan for case fans on 140mm. About the USBs, i dont think there is an issue, USB3.1 gen1 will work fine with your frontal, the connector is the same to the motherboard, and i seen speed close to 400 transfering on my corsair 740 which also is usb 3.0, i hate all the nonesense with the USB nomenclature, i feel they should have made it 3.0, 3.1 and 3.2, that gen1 and gen2 just complicates things, but soon we will be on 4.0 with the inclusion of TB to it, hope we get pass this naming era soon.
Good to know on USB, thanks! Perhaps I'm over-spending, but to ensure similar sound profile, I wanted to go ahead and swap out the included case fans for the Be Quiet case fans, which I recognize to be superb (glad you seconded this though)! And if it makes it even more silent than needed, then, great, as that opens me up to perform some OCing of the CPU! Unfortunately, I am a bit lost by your explanation on fan controls here, regarding 3-pin, 4-pin, PMW, auto-detect, etc.
Abula wrote:Abula - Monitor: TN vs IPS...Here is very very subjective to each user, for example, there are some that can tolerate TN color shift and viewing angles, but there are others that can tolerate IPS Glow and backlight bleeding on the IPS, othes swear by VA fixing all this issues and other say that VA introduces ghosting.... there are others that are not happy with anything..... so YMMV. There are some very nice TN now a days, that still have color shift but its much less than what you usually see on older TNs, i believe the Asus TN used on the 258 to be very good, but color wise will never be as good as IPS, but then again IPS will never be as fast as TN.... again there is no perfect monitor, there are only compromises and preferences that you have to decide. I do think teodoro brings a good point, UW are gaining popularity because of a more immersive experience, so you might want to look into those, im eyeballing the
LG UltraGear 34GK950G-B 34" 21:9 Curved G-Sync IPS Gaming Monitor, but there is one that its coming Q4 that has me more interested,
LG 38GL950G-B.
Will let you see my response to teodoro regarding my experimenting with an UW 29", but the TL;DR is I'm going to check out a store to compare 24" and 27" IPS monitors. There are definitely some TNs boasting great specs not far behind some IPS monitors.
The IPS glow is certainly a concern, especially with the 27" I'm considering. However, low brightness and soft 6500k backlighting should go a long way to help with this, while increasing perceived contrast even further (the 27" I'm leaning towards already boasts the best contrast of any 27" currently on the market though! However, the gammas are generally poor out of the box; don't think a colorimeter is warranted though, as I'm not engaged in print production or such). With regards to the first monitor you suggested, I read some pretty scatching reviews of it for input lag. Tried to hunt down the article again to share, but was unsuccessful, sorry.
Abula wrote:All - New Question: Case Glass Panel...If you like the glass go for it, the phantek specially has rubber dampener to help even seal the glass to the frame of chassis, some say its for noise not to get out as easy other say to not have vibrations... but only one that seen this. Personally im not into that, but this is a totally user thing, if you like to show the computer go for it. Be sure to check all the options, there are 4 colors on the case.
Aye! Tempered glass was decided upon. And I forget the name of the color I picked, but it was the charcoal-like one, after comparing the four colors (I was actually unimpressed by the other 3 options, tbh).