Time to update from 2011

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Vampirtc
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:00 am

Time to update from 2011

Post by Vampirtc » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:27 pm

Thanks for all the help back in 2011. I'm looking to upgrade.
https://silentpcreview.com/forums/viewt ... bf#p537413

What I need is a quiet, reliable and responsive system. I don't play games on it anymore, but I use it for web development, graphics design (mainly Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator) and programming beside the usual emails, browsing, youtube, etc. I tend to keep all applications opened withs lots of browsers and tabs opened. I don't turn the system off, so it has been running for 9 years almost 24/7, but I plan to change that as long as I can get wakeup on remote desktop working.
Since I bought a new monitor Eizo FlexScan EV3285 the system seems a little sluggish and my upgraded SSD has power on time 2145 days (28TB writes). I also use HDMI output for TV and toslink for sound system. So HDMI/DisplayPort and toslink are a must.

Beside noise I also want to buy quality components that should last. In the last system by power supply died a few years back and one of the RAM bricks as well. Might be my fault since I keep the computer inside a working desk with only the rear opened.

I have a distant wish to play Star Citizen in VR if it ever becomes available.

I'm not budget limited but I tend to buy what is sensible.

I've narrowed it down to AMD build:
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, 12x 3.80GHz, boxed (100-100000023BOX) 358€
Seasonic Prime Fanless PX-450 450W ATX (PRIME-Fanless-PX-450) 112€
MSI GeForce GT 1030 2GH LP OC, 2GB GDDR5, HDMI, DP (V809-2498R) 67€
Corsair Force Series Gen.4 PCIe MP600 1TB, M.2 (CSSD-F1000GBMP600) 181€
Scythe Ninja 5 (SCNJ-5000) 43€
ASUS Prime X570-Pro (90MB11B0-M0EAY0) 193€
Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C Black, schallgedämmt (FD-CA-DEF-R6C-BK) 106€
Corsair Vengeance LPX schwarz DIMM Kit 32GB, DDR4-3200, CL16-18-18-36 (CMK32GX4M2B3200C16) 127€
my old 480GB SSD for backup

and Intel build:
ASUS Prime Z390-A (90MB0YT0-M0EAY0) 138€
Seasonic Prime Fanless PX-450 450W ATX (PRIME-Fanless-PX-450) 112€
MSI GeForce GT 1030 2GH LP OC, 2GB GDDR5, HDMI, DP (V809-2498R) 67€
Corsair Force Series Gen.4 PCIe MP600 1TB, M.2 (CSSD-F1000GBMP600) 181€
Scythe Ninja 5 (SCNJ-5000) 43€
Intel Core i9-9900K, 8x 3.60GHz, boxed ohne Kühler (BX80684I99900K) 433€
Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C Black, schallgedämmt (FD-CA-DEF-R6C-BK) 106€
Corsair Vengeance LPX schwarz DIMM Kit 32GB, DDR4-3200, CL16-18-18-36 (CMK32GX4M2B3200C16) 127€
my old 480GB SSD for backup

As for brands I've read that Asus does make good motherboards, any better ideas? Same question for Corsair SSD and RAM. liked Seasonic until it died, should I go with a safer route by picking a semi passive power supply. Is 450W enough?

As for CPU I think 3700X or i9700k would work well as well and keep things a little less hot.

What I like about AMD build is more future proof CPU but the fan on the motherboard really worries me. Especially when paired with PCie Gen 4 HDD.
If I go with an older motherboard PCIE3.0 is there a big difference for HDD speed?
Do I require a VGA card if I pick 9900k or 9700k?
Alternative cooling that I had in my is be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 (BK022) for 57€

Olle P
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Olle P » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:38 am

Vampirtc wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:27 pm
... should I go with a safer route by picking a semi passive power supply. Is 450W enough?
450W should be plenty, until you get a much more powerful video card to run VR.
I can't say if semi passive PSU is better.
Vampirtc wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:27 pm
As for CPU I think 3700X or i9700k would work well as well and keep things a little less hot.
Expect the 3900X to use less power than a Core i7-9700K.
Vampirtc wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:27 pm
What I like about AMD build is more future proof CPU but the fan on the motherboard really worries me. Especially when paired with PCie Gen 4 HDD.
If I go with an older motherboard PCIE3.0 is there a big difference for HDD speed?
The fan can be annoying, to say the least, if you use the M.2 slot communicating through the chip. Not recommended.
If you use the primary M.2 slot that communicate directly with the CPU it shouldn't be a problem, though I wouldn't bet on it.

There's a measurable difference in (benchmark) speed between using PCIe 3 vs 4, but nothing you'd notice in actual use.
You can't go wrong with a X470 motherboard.
Vampirtc wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:27 pm
Do I require a VGA card if I pick 9900k or 9700k?
Not really, but why would you settle with an upgrade to tech from 2016 in the first place?
Less performance and (much) more power use compared to Ryzen.

Abula
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Abula » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:12 am

I would wait for Z490, should be released very soon, and 10 core is coming, maybe could be worth it to you since your upgrade cycle is long. I would stay on intel iGPU should be enough for anything aside from gaming.
GameMi - Intel i9 9900K + Gigabyte Z390 AM + Asus RTX2080Ti Strix | MiniMi - Intel i7 8700K + ASRock Z370ITX + MSI RTX2080Ti
StreaMi - Intel i9 7940X + AsRock X299 Taichi + Asus GTX1080Ti Strix | WorkMi - AMD 1950X + AsRock X399 Taichi + MSI GTX1080
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CA_Steve
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by CA_Steve » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:04 am

Star Citizen is a heavy resource user and will require a high end gfx card (200-250W) to support decent fps in VR.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Vampirtc
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Vampirtc » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:02 pm

The fan can be annoying, to say the least, if you use the M.2 slot communicating through the chip. Not recommended.
If you use the primary M.2 slot that communicate directly with the CPU it shouldn't be a problem, though I wouldn't bet on it.
If I understand correctly, motehrboard has two M.2 slots, one is directly to CPU, the other through the chip. So if I use the slot that communicates directly through to CPU there will be less heat on the chip?

Are there any coolers available for X570 chipsets?

Vampirtc
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:00 am

Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Vampirtc » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:04 pm

When I look at the ASUS Prime X570-Pro motherboard, it has Displayport and HDMI output, but if I don't buy Ryzen with integrated GPU, those outputs are useless? What would be the best motherboard for Ryzen 3700X with X570 chipset?

Abula
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Abula » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:46 pm

Vampirtc wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:04 pm
When I look at the ASUS Prime X570-Pro motherboard, it has Displayport and HDMI output, but if I don't buy Ryzen with integrated GPU, those outputs are useless?
Yes.
Vampirtc wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:04 pm
What would be the best motherboard for Ryzen 3700X with X570 chipset?
The best x570 mobos are GIGABYTE X570 AORUS XTREME or MSI MEG X570 GODLIKE but to the average user neither its worth the cost. MSI PRESTIGE X570 CREATION is a really nice mobo,with heatpipe between the chipset n the vrms, the fan only starts on startup then goes passive most of time, the downside is that its expensive.

Now the motherboard that has gotten decent reviews and its not that expensive ASUS TUF GAMING X570-PLUS.
GameMi - Intel i9 9900K + Gigabyte Z390 AM + Asus RTX2080Ti Strix | MiniMi - Intel i7 8700K + ASRock Z370ITX + MSI RTX2080Ti
StreaMi - Intel i9 7940X + AsRock X299 Taichi + Asus GTX1080Ti Strix | WorkMi - AMD 1950X + AsRock X399 Taichi + MSI GTX1080
ServeMi - Intel Xeon E3-1230 + Supermicro X9SCM-F + 144TB | StoreMi - Intel Xeon E3 1240v5 + Supermicro X11SSM-F + 42TB | CamMi - Intel i7 4770K + MSI H81i + Blue Iris

Olle P
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Olle P » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:09 am

Abula wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:12 am
I would wait for Z490, ... and 10 core is coming, maybe could be worth it to you...
As I stated before: Why upgrade to the 2016 standard, at an overprice?
The desired lifetime of the computer is the main reason to stay clear of these Skylake(++++...) CPUs.
Vampirtc wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:02 pm
If I understand correctly, motherboard has two M.2 slots, one is directly to CPU, the other through the chip. So if I use the slot that communicates directly through to CPU there will be less heat on the chip?
On my motherboard, yes. One can assume that most motherboards with two or more M.2 slots use the same solution.
Vampirtc wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:02 pm
Are there any coolers available for X570 chipsets?
Only the ones that come with the motherboards, at least as far as I know.
It's possible that some generic water cooling block can be used, but that's nothing I've considered and investigated... yet

Vampirtc
Posts: 22
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Vampirtc » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:46 am

Now the motherboard that has gotten decent reviews and its not that expensive ASUS TUF GAMING X570-PLUS.
Makes no sense to pay over 500€ for a motherboard. How does this one compare to my choice ASUS Prime X570-Pro?

What passively cooled GPU would you recommend? Need it just for displayport/hdmi output, although a better one would increase Photoshop/Illustrator performance?

CA_Steve
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:37 am

Puget Systems does a great job benchmarking Adobe's applications. For Photoshop, the lowest end gpu is probably good enough considering the RX 5700 XT only scores 30% better (while having 12x the Passmark performance score) over Intel's HD 630 IGP in a worst case test. So, the MSI GT 1030 passive could work for you. It's Passmark score is ~2x the HD 630. My only hesitation would be:
- does 2GB of DDR4 Video RAM limit your use?

Haven't seen anything regarding Illustrator gpu benchmarks.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Abula
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Abula » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:30 pm

Olle P wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:09 am
As I stated before: Why upgrade to the 2016 standard, at an overprice?
The desired lifetime of the computer is the main reason to stay clear of these Skylake(++++...) CPUs.
It really depends on what you aiming, gaming intel will remain faster, even certain editing under conditions like using intel igpu will remain in favor of intel. AMD is very likely that this will be the last AM4 socket based cpus, so ryzen 5000 will likely be another socket meaning a new mobo, etc. I do think AMD is a better buy, just that it doesnt rule everything, really depends on what you are planning on using your pc for.
Vampirtc wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:46 am
Makes no sense to pay over 500€ for a motherboard.
Price is relative to each person, for example i prefer MSI B450 Tomhawk MAX for a value build or for a higher end setup going all the way to Gigabyte X570 Aorus Extreme, im just to old to deal with proprietary chipset fans, way to many issues in the past.
Vampirtc wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:46 am
How does this one compare to my choice ASUS Prime X570-Pro?

Bulldazoid says it has the same vrm than the TUF Plus, Best Motherboards for Ryzen 3000 CPUs: X570 vs. X470 & B450, Steve from HardwareUnboxed also suggest the TUF Gaming as best value x570 buys, Affordable X570 VRM Thermal Performance, Warning: One Board Sucks!. User reviews in newegg, amazon n bh have favorable reviews, up to you to decide if the PRO brings something to the table that its worth it to you.

Another option is to wait for B550, seems AMD wants to release it close to Intel Z490 to make it easier and more afordable to enter ryzen 3000, there are many rummors that will have a June release date, and im hopping to see again passive chipsets.
GameMi - Intel i9 9900K + Gigabyte Z390 AM + Asus RTX2080Ti Strix | MiniMi - Intel i7 8700K + ASRock Z370ITX + MSI RTX2080Ti
StreaMi - Intel i9 7940X + AsRock X299 Taichi + Asus GTX1080Ti Strix | WorkMi - AMD 1950X + AsRock X399 Taichi + MSI GTX1080
ServeMi - Intel Xeon E3-1230 + Supermicro X9SCM-F + 144TB | StoreMi - Intel Xeon E3 1240v5 + Supermicro X11SSM-F + 42TB | CamMi - Intel i7 4770K + MSI H81i + Blue Iris

teodoro
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by teodoro » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:10 am

to me the first question that has to be answered is "will the intel uhd 630 struggle with driving a 4k monitor and/or tv?" if the answer is 'yes', intel is far less compelling. if the answer is 'no' or 'it depends', the money saved by not investing in a 1030 makes it a little more interesting.

I don't use photoshop/illustrator so this is my naive interpretation of puget system's benchmarks. the tests which fall under the 'gpu score' header really don't show the uhd 630 far behind all of the discrete gpus. 'field blur', 'tilt-shift blur', 'iris blur' are all 1-3 seconds slower on the uhd 630 vs the fastest discrete graphics card. on 'resize to 500mb' the uhd 630 falls behind further, but we're still talking 8.5 seconds vs 2.5 seconds. note that despite not being part of the gpu composite score the uhd 630 did bench at 32 seconds vs 15-16 seconds for discrete gpus on the 'smart sharpen' test. I don't know enough about the typical photoshop workflow to know if those differences are meaningful, but to me it sounds like it's not worth buying a gpu purely for that application.

puget's cpu roundup pegs the 3900x and 9900k as pretty similar in performance (along with the 3800x). the 'future proof' argument in favor of amd doesn't factor in much for me in this case, because am4 is almost EOL and it's unlikely photoshop suddenly starts scaling with more cores. other stuff will, sure, but I think it'll be a long time before the 8 core 9900k feels sluggish. x570 does offer pci-e 4.0 for storage but I'm also doubting that adds value over a pci-e 3 device.

given what I know about star citizen's development timeline, hoping to play the VR version of it anytime soon seems...optimistic. whenever it comes, you can buy an appropriate graphics card and drop it into the system. I think it's silly to buy things you won't make use of right now/in the foreseeable future.

tl;dr if the 9900k's igpu will suffice for your needs, I think intel makes sense here. if you need a discrete gpu anyway (even if it is a gt 1030), amd then becomes more cost efficient.

Olle P
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Olle P » Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:58 am

teodoro wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:10 am
... the 'future proof' argument in favor of amd doesn't factor in much for me in this case, because am4 is almost EOL and it's unlikely photoshop suddenly starts scaling with more cores. ...
The "EOL" argument is moot since Intel's current offerings are about four years past that point already and has been on life support ever since.
If one of the objectives with this build is to keep the chosen CPU for as long as viable then that argument favours Ryzen.

In the latest updates Adobe's products make much better use of Ryzen CPUs by utilizing newer command sets and functions that are available in those CPUs.

teodoro
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by teodoro » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:08 am

Intel’s architecture being super old isn’t directly relevant, what matters is performance for a given use case. No doubt, AM4 still has a significantly better upgrade path than z370/z390 or even z490 platforms. But for a person who last upgraded 8 years ago, what are the odds that person actually leverages that upgrade path? For plenty of people (like me!), that flexibility is a significant value add. For what is possibly a larger group of people, it likely shouldn’t be a consideration because it’ll never be relevant.

Did adobe update their suite to better use ryzen parts since that puget benchmark? My quick search didn’t show anything, so I’m running off my assumptions from that roundup (ryzen matches intel, extra threads don’t scale too well). Adobe has not recently enjoyed a reputation of being quick to support new technologies. It’s anyone’s guess how a cpu will perform in any given software in 1-X years time.

I did gloss over “programming” as a regular use, and compilers certainly have been more responsive to increased core count. Power consumption, especially for a pc that has significant uptime, also strongly favors AMD’s newer tech over intel. The majority of my argument in favor of Intel was that it could be cheaper by avoiding a discrete gpu, but those pinched pennies might not make up for the bigger electric bill!

Vampirtc
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Vampirtc » Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:12 am

None of the apps I use are particularly CPU intensive. The longest time I wait is when I open a big Photoshop file thats why I went for the PCIE4.0 connected SSD.
Most of the stress comes from having at least 10 applications opened all the time and don't bother closing. And each browser about 50 opened tabs. I also run a small file sharing server (for just a few computers) and some occational scripts that run the background.
In all honesty i5-2500k with 12GB RAM still fits my requirments.

And you are correct, electric bills over 8 years was probably over 90% of the cost of the system.

Olle P
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Olle P » Tue May 05, 2020 6:18 am

Vampirtc wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:12 am
In all honesty i5-2500k with 12GB RAM still fits my requirments.
So a Ryzen 5 3400G should be more than enough to cover your needs for years to come then...?

Gives you money to spare now and spend on even better (and cheaper) hardware later, when you can make use of it.

Vampirtc
Posts: 22
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Vampirtc » Fri May 29, 2020 3:58 am

My components finally arrived, except the case which I'm getting in a few days. Already put everything together, but I have a few issues:
I wasn't sure if I want to use the motherboard heatsink for SSD or the Corsair one. But since I was not able to move the screws for mounting the heatsink to SSD slot one (which is the only one for PCIE4), I'm currently using the original one. Had to improvise by using one of the crews so I could fit the SSD, strange there is no available fitting for SSD slot 1.

My power supply supply doesn't have the extra 4pin power supply coonector that the motherboard supports. I left it empty. Should I try buying this cable?

Wasn't sure where to put graphic card, I put it in slot2 since I think its better to leave some space between CPU/SSD heatsink.

I used the included thermal compound that comes with Sycthe Ninja 5, should I buy a better one?

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Olle P
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Re: Time to update from 2011

Post by Olle P » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:36 am

Vampirtc wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:58 am
I wasn't sure if I want to use the motherboard heatsink for SSD or the Corsair one. But since I was not able to move the screws for mounting the heatsink to SSD slot one (which is the only one for PCIE4), I'm currently using the original one. Had to improvise by using one of the crews so I could fit the SSD, strange there is no available fitting for SSD slot 1.
That mobo heatsink could interfere with the CPU cooler and/or video card backplate if mounted on slot 1.
Vampirtc wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:58 am
My power supply supply doesn't have the extra 4pin power supply coonector that the motherboard supports. I left it empty. Should I try buying this cable?
No, not initially. Your mobo will run fine with the 8-pin only. See page 1-18 in the manual. (Mine won't start unless both connectors are attached.)
Vampirtc wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:58 am
Wasn't sure where to put graphic card, I put it in slot2 since I think its better to leave some space between CPU/SSD heatsink.
Don't bother about the SSD/CPU. What matters is the GPU cooling, so use whatever slot will allow for most efficient cooling of the graphics.
Vampirtc wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:58 am
I used the included thermal compound that comes with Sycthe Ninja 5, should I buy a better one?
Only if you must have it run one or two degrees cooler.

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