New PC build

Got a shopping cart of parts that you want opinions on? Get advice from members on your planned or existing system (or upgrade).

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Horseman
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:08 am

New PC build

Post by Horseman » Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:12 pm

Hi everyone,

Thanks to an extremely nice forum member here sending me his unused case fans I managed to extend the life of my PC to 13 years, it's been a fantastic machine (I bought this system based on the suggestions here on this forum, in 2007 or 2008), but yesterday I started having warnings of the hard drive failing, with Windows advising me every few minutes to turn the computer off and saving everything, before replacing the hard drive. It's time to make the big upgrade I've been delaying, I think. I could try to replace the hard drive, but I'm tetraplegic, I can't do it myself, and since I'm going to send the PC to the shop, it's better to buy all the other necessary components, before something else fails.

Reliability is crucial

I only have this PC, so reliability is extremely important to me, I can't risk a major failure due to old age. Hopefully the PC holds for a few more days, allowing me to research and decide. In the meantime, I'd appreciate if you can advise me regarding what's the best configuration/upgrade for my needs.
(I live in Europe, Portugal)

Keeping the same PC case, and also the graphics card

I'm planning to keep using the ANTEC 182, and since the graphic cards prices are sky high I think the best option is to keep the same graphics cards (ASUS 6670), and perhaps in 1 or 2 years upgrade to something more powerful. I can't play games, due to the physical limitations I have, so this graphics card is perfectly acceptable for now. I'll also keep using the hard drives, but I need to buy a bigger HDD, and also a SSD.

CPU

My first big doubt is regarding the CPU. I need a powerful CPU because I like to render 3-D stuff, and the more powerful the computer, the better. In particular, as many cores as possible. These past few years I've been reading a lot about AMD, but with the CPU shortages it seems I'm out of luck, the shop where I'll buy the components (from a friend of mine) only has Intel CPUs. So I'm pretty much stuck with Intel. From reading several reviews today I think the Core i9-10900 or the 10900F seem reasonably good, they're sold as 65W CPUs. But I also read this...
https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments ... sktop_cpu/

Is this true in a real-world scenario? If it is, I guess I could try to buy an AMD CPU, from another shop. But in that case I'd have to buy the entire PC, not reusing the case and graphics card. So, it'd mean a bigger cost.

CPU cooler
I have no idea what's the ideal for this CPU (if going with Intel).

RAM

I need 32GB

Motherboard

I'm also completely lost about which motherboard to buy. I don't plan to overclock the CPU, and my biggest requirement is that the system is reliable.

HDD

I'll buy the WD BLUE 6TB, hoping it's relatively quiet.

SSD
I want a reliable SSD for the OS and my main software. Around 500GB should be enough. It doesn't need to be extra fast, I'm more focused on reliability and price.

Case

I'll keep my ANTEC 182.

Graphics card

I'll keep my AMD 6670.

Power supply

Maybe the Corsair RM650x?

I'd appreciate very much all your comments and suggestions.

Elrast
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Australia

Re: New PC build

Post by Elrast » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:54 pm

Hi

You've mentioned reliability which I assume is about hardware - I'll just mention that you should also consider backup and recovery of any irreplaceable data on the disks.

Japanese Capacitor
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:16 am
Location: Warszawa, Poland

Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:21 am

It would be best, if you type here all of the programs you use and describe general usage of your computer (what is important, what matters, but no that much, what you completely don't care).

CPU: AMD offers more cores than Intel and is better in multi-threaded workload, but it will cost you more (5900X or 5950X). Current AMD CPUs also have one advantage over Intel 10th gen - working with current CPUs PCIe 4.0 on B550 and X570 boards, so opportunity to use faster 4.0 NVMe drives. Also GPUs will start to make a difference with 4.0 - only impossible to say when. For now 4.0 is rather about opportunities and future-proofing your platform.

MB: First we choose the CPU.

Cooler. We need to choose CPU, then we'll choose the cooler. But to let you calculate the cost, my general reccomendations for good cooling and really quiet operation of any non-overclocked CPUs are: Scythe Ninja 5 or Scythe Fuma 2.

RAM: G Skill Ripjaws and Patriot Viper are usually best priced. Prices of RAM go high really fast now, so expect to spend more than you see today if no hurry.

HDD: They are more or less audible. I would consider convering to inaudible SSDs. Maybe you don't really need 6TB of space? If you need, count 3x Crucial MX500 TB. It will be pricey compared to HDDs, but if I were you, I would do it just for inaudible operation. Just leave these damn hot and loud HDDs in the past. Little problem is with your case, which doesn't have SSD mounts.

EDIT: I forgot to mention NVMe drives: If PCIe 3.0, Samsung 970 Evo or Evo Plus are solid choices in terms of quality, performance and price ratio.

Case: It's impossible to compare such an classic to modern cases due to lack of comparison test, but I suspect newer cases being better in terms of cooling, quiet operation, dust filtering or ease of maintenance - main functions of a case. Generally cases made a progress in everything during last decade, but they stopped few years ago. It looks like they just reached the peak of what case can be. So buying today something awesome means they are chances, that you will have it even longer than P182 and all this time it will be better, so I would give it a try.

PSU: RMx is great. Fractal's Ion is comparable option, which possibly you will find with lower price.

CA_Steve
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Re: New PC build

Post by CA_Steve » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:11 am

Welcome back.

I'm not really sure when component prices and availability will get back to normal. Could be 3-6 months. Could be longer, depending on the fab backlogs. Rather than trying to build based on what's available right now, what about sending the PC to the shop and getting your drive replaced? Then, you'd have time to ponder what's the best build for your needs.

Horseman
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:08 am

Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:31 am

Thank you very much for your posts.
Elrast wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:54 pm
You've mentioned reliability which I assume is about hardware - I'll just mention that you should also consider backup and recovery of any irreplaceable data on the disks.
Indeed. I'm now trying to back up as much as possible to external hard drives.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:21 am
It would be best, if you type here all of the programs you use and describe general usage of your computer (what is important, what matters, but no that much, what you completely don't care)..
I use the PC to browse and watch movies/TV shows, but also as a VRay rendering machine (it requires as many cores as possible, and 32GB RAM). And I also use my voice recognition software (but the software isn't very CPU intensive)
CA_Steve wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:11 am
I'm not really sure when component prices and availability will get back to normal. Could be 3-6 months. Could be longer, depending on the fab backlogs. Rather than trying to build based on what's available right now, what about sending the PC to the shop and getting your drive replaced? Then, you'd have time to ponder what's the best build for your needs.
It's a good advice. My fear is that 2 or 3 months from now something else breaks (which is more or less expectable with such an ancient computer), and I'd have to go through all this again, having to ask someone to come over, sending the PC to the shop, and so on. If I could do it myself it'd be easy, but unfortunately there's some logistics that are required.

Today or tomorrow I'm hoping to talk to the shop owner by phone, and I'll try to know if there are CPUs currently available. I'll report back as soon as I know. Thanks again for your advice.

Japanese Capacitor
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Location: Warszawa, Poland

Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:32 am

If we talk about V-Ray CPU rendering, 5900X or 5950X will be noticeably better than Intels. Sadly they are barely available and pricey. But I see a nice deal in older 3900X, which you should buy without a problems and it will do even better than 10900K. Add to this mentioned PCIe 4.0 B550 motherboard in type of good, but nicely priced Aorus Elite. The thing is, I don't know, if you make money on V-Ray. If so, newer Ryzens are worth considering, but if not and that's just a hobby, I wouldn't go crazy with paying extra for chart-topping V-Ray CPU, if you even look at the prices.

CA_Steve
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Re: New PC build

Post by CA_Steve » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:59 am

Or, build a system around an R5 3600 and then when higher core 5xxx parts become more available and at std pricing, upgrade and sell the 3600 on ebay. The R5 3600 will run circles around your Core 2 Duo 8400 :)

The R5's CPU mark score is about 15x that of the e8400.

Or, get a Ryzen 3 3200G now and replace it later with an upgrade. It's merely 6x faster, but does have an integrated gpu and is only 100 Euroes or so.

Horseman
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:08 am

Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:33 pm

Sorry for not posting these past 4 days, I was hoping to gather more info regarding what's available in the shop I mentioned. In the meantime talked to my friend, and found out that he's recovering from COVID19, so this will take a bit more time. But he said he'll send me a budget ASAP.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:32 am
If we talk about V-Ray CPU rendering, 5900X or 5950X will be noticeably better than Intels. Sadly they are barely available and pricey. But I see a nice deal in older 3900X, which you should buy without a problems and it will do even better than 10900K. Add to this mentioned PCIe 4.0 B550 motherboard in type of good, but nicely priced Aorus Elite. The thing is, I don't know, if you make money on V-Ray. If so, newer Ryzens are worth considering, but if not and that's just a hobby, I wouldn't go crazy with paying extra for chart-topping V-Ray CPU, if you even look at the prices.
I'm kind of an hobbyist, sometimes I do get paid for 3-D work, but I'm very slow due to low hand dexterity, so I can't really justify paying the very high prices for the 5950X.

I'll take a look at that motherboard, thnaks, it seems very nice. And the B550 chipset doesn't have a fan, correct? Maybe the 570 chipset fans aren't audible, but I worry what happens if 5 or 10 years down the road the motherboard fans fail.
CA_Steve wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:59 am
Or, build a system around an R5 3600 and then when higher core 5xxx parts become more available and at std pricing, upgrade and sell the 3600 on ebay. The R5 3600 will run circles around your Core 2 Duo 8400 :)

The R5's CPU mark score is about 15x that of the e8400.

Or, get a Ryzen 3 3200G now and replace it later with an upgrade. It's merely 6x faster, but does have an integrated gpu and is only 100 Euroes or so.
You are completely right, my 8400 is extremely slow compared to all modern CPUs, it will be a huge jump whatever CPU I get. I can't wait. :)

Your strategy makes sense, but the annoyance of having to ask someone to take the PC to the shop again, and the extra time without computer, it's probably better to try to get something faster now, even if it isn't the absolute top-of-the-line, and make sure the new computer works for at least the next 10 years.

I'll post here as soon as I get the message from my friend, with his budget proposal. Thanks again very much for your posts.

Japanese Capacitor
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Location: Warszawa, Poland

Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:11 am

If you are hobbyst, who sometimes get paid, go with whatever CPU you want to pay its price. From strong V-Ray CPUs I find the best deal 3900X. It's just better than 10 cores/20 threads Intels and you can pair it with PCIe 4.0 motherboard. There's also 3950X, which is a little better than 5900X. Maybe it's worth to wait for upcoming Intels, if we have time, but I wouldn't expect too much from rather more pricey and faster 8 cores/16 threads CPUs. You can check some news of predicted performance, if you interested - I'm not into hardware gossip.

B550 doesn't have a fan, X570 does. If I'm not wrong, there's only one exception - some damn pricey Gigabyte's board. You think the right way about longevity of such fans. We had motherboard fans in the past and problem with it was, after few years they were getting noisier and noisier due to degradating. It's hard to say, how it will be with current boards, rather depends on the model and they differ with noise generated. Secound thing is, if board producer would provide replacement fan after years. My advice is: if you don't and won't need more than one as fast as possible storage and GPU, go with B550.

I find B550 Aorus Elite the best quality/price deal from 550 boards. It's just good, but costs surprisingly low. If you need some alternatives: MSI Gaming Plus is fine, if you don't mind worse audio. Tomahawk also, but rather more pricey. Generally the question with paring CPU and motherboard is: do you plan to overclock? Do you have any needs like type of connectors on the back panel? These overclocked CPUs will be better in V-Ray, but oc means need to buy more expensive cooler and probably more noise needed to cool overclocked CPU. If I were a V-Ray hobbyst, I would choose nicer, quieter computing experience.

Abula
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Location: Guatemala

Re: New PC build

Post by Abula » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:14 pm

Find out first if you workflow benefits from more cores, not all workflows take more cores better, in some scenarios like most Adobe still benefit more from intel Quicsync than more cores, so check for your explicit workflow and programs if you really will get better experience with AMD than intel, we see AMD as the new true king, when in reality it has taken the performance crown but with it it also took remove the best bang for the buck crown that used to make people recommend AMD, i say this owning a 5950x and 5900x setups at home.

Intel Core i5-10400 its a very capable 6 core that retails at $160 its goes head to vs AMD RYZEN 5 3600 that usually retails for $200, so $40 and you get a very capable iGPU that will do anything but gaming, even under certain workflows, intel quicksync is very strong in transcoding and editing, giving it the edge not only in price but in functionality over AMD. Ryzen 3000 is the last iteration of AM4, so thinking on investing on AMD due to an upgrade path doesn't apply here, when AM5 is released it will probably go again some gens on that socket.

Now if you are set on AMD, then the question is whether you want to wait, atm its super hard to get a 5950x/5900x, the 5800x/5600x are much more vaible options in terms of availability, not that they are in stock but usually there is limited availability on the weekly basis. Other option is going with a 3950x/3900x much easier to get and a little cheaper, pair with GIGABYTE B550 AORUS PRO and be set.
CPU cooler
I have no idea what's the ideal for this CPU (if going with Intel).
Scythe Mugen 5 Rev.B would be my recommendation. Easy to install, allows any type of memory you wish, decent 120mm fan.
RAM
I need 32GB
Avoid issues with memory going by the motherboard manufacturer QVL List. I pull my hair with my recent AMD 5950x build using a very high end memory that the CPU didn't support, while it started was unstable even under 1.46v (my personal limit), even at 2133 1.2v was unstable, once I moved to one from QVL 0 issues. So do yourself a favor and buy from QLV list once you decide what motherboard fits best your needs.
Motherboard
I'm also completely lost about which motherboard to buy. I don't plan to overclock the CPU, and my biggest requirement is that the system is reliable.
Here is a matter of personal preference, i have liked what Gigabyte has done with thier last two years of motherboards, and GIGABYTE H470 AORUS PRO AX $160 looks like a very solid offering with good VRMs and coolers, good layout, nice IO with DP/HDMI in case you go the iGPU route for some time until you get the dedicated GPU.
SSD
I want a reliable SSD for the OS and my main software. Around 500GB should be enough. It doesn't need to be extra fast, I'm more focused on reliability and price.
My top 3 picks for SSDs are Intel, Samsung and Crucial, i own from the three brands for a decade and none have gone bad, i still use my Sata II Intel X25m. Crucial MX500 500gb has been around for a more than 3 years now, their firmware is very mature and proven in the market. I do think that 500gb is a on the small side, especially if you plan on playing games, now its not rare to see 100gb games, so my suggestion is bump it to at least 1TB.
HDD
I'll buy the WD BLUE 6TB, hoping it's relatively quiet.
I no longer run mechanical drives on my PCs, i feel its worth it to avoid the noise they do, specially todays hdds are not as quiet as WD 2tb Greens, so my suggestion, is to go with small NAS and move it away from your listening position, something like Synology DiskStation DS220+ is a very capable little server, can serve files over the network, do backups and store files, do plex transcoding, surveillance with ip cameras, etc.

As a recommendation, if you budget allows, try changing your case fans so you start fresh, most of todays motherboards work really well with PWM fans attach to the motherboard headers and using the bios fan control to regulate them. ARCTIC P12 PWM PST Value Pack offer very good value for the pack and have gotten decent reviews, another option is the Scythe Kaze Flex 120mm Fan PWM 300-1200 RPM or even Noctua NF-P12 redux-1300 PWM.

CA_Steve
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Re: New PC build

Post by CA_Steve » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:00 am

Abula wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:14 pm
My top 3 picks for SSDs are Intel, Samsung and Crucial, i own from the three brands for a decade and none have gone bad, i still use my Sata II Intel X25m. Crucial MX500 500gb has been around for a more than 3 years now, their firmware is very mature and proven in the market. I do think that 500gb is a on the small side, especially if you plan on playing games, now its not rare to see 100gb games, so my suggestion is bump it to at least 1TB.
The HP EX950 looks interesting. Good NVMe performance, great performance/$, maybe add a stick-on heat sink if you plan to hammer it with sustained writes. Not sure of it's reliability, yet. Big difference in ratings between Amazon and newegg reviews regarding returns.

Horseman
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Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:41 am

Just got the config proposal from my friend (from the shop where I'll buy the computer), I'll past it here.

------------------------------------------------------------
CPU
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X 4.6Ghz AM4 64MB

CPU cooler
Arctic Cooler CPU Freezer 34 Esports Duo Red PWM Ultra Low

Motherboard
Asus Prime B450-Plus AMD AM4 M2/SATA 4xDDR4 até 64GB 3200MHz
Asus TUF Gaming B450-Plus II AMD AM4 M2/SATA 4xDDR4 até 128G 4400MH

RAM
Kingston DDR4 32GB 3200MHZ HyperX Fury Black

SSD
Samsung SSD Serie 980 PRO 500GB NVMe M.2 R6900 / W5000Mb/s
Samsung SSD 512GB SATA 3 Serie 860 PRO Basic R560 / W530Mb/s

HDD
WD HDD 6TB Blue 3.5" 64mb SATA 6gbb/s

PSU
Corsair RM650X 650W 80 PLUS Gold Full Modular ATX
Corsair RM750i 750W 80+ Gold Full Modular ATX

Case fans x3
Cooler Master FP 120mm 3Pin 160.000h life expectancy LDB 11DBA
---------------------------------------------------------------

As I mentioned above he usually works exclusively with Intel, but due to the posts here I asked to make a config with the Ryzen 3900X, and I'm quite happy with that. The motherboards he suggests use the B450 chipset, tho, I wonder if they're still considering good choices. I don't plan to overclock, but as long as they're stable and reliable and I'm not missing any major feature (?), that'd perfectly fine.

I'll research each of the items he suggested, to try to see if they're good choices, and also read carefully your posts.
Last edited by Horseman on Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Horseman
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Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:03 am

Sorry for the double post - I just talked with the shop owner, and he said that he chose those 2 motherboards because he considers them good quality components, but also because these days with the PC hardware shortages he only has available a relatively small number of motherboards, compared to 6 or 12 months ago.

Japanese Capacitor
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Location: Warszawa, Poland

Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:50 pm

CPU: 3900X - awesome choice

Cooler: 34 Duo - great performer for great price, but needs to be noisy to provide such and needed in case of 3900X performance. The worst type of cooler, if we talk about quiet operation - tiny tower with two crazy fast fans. Smaller radiator, so more work for fans, cheap amount of four heatpipes makes it worse, paint also (but it's rather scientific difference).

Go with Scythe Fuma 2 - it's adequate for 3900X and need of quiet operation. If cheaper, take mentioned by Abula Scythe Mugen 5 rev. B or be quiet! Shadow Rock 3 - rather the same in terms of cooling and noise, both great quality, so reliable - both killers in their price category. The problem is your case - I just can't google, how high cooler it can store. It should be fine, but it should be also checked ;)

RAM: Fine if nicely priced compared to the same MHz/CL alternatives.

HDD: I'm not into HDDs, but you have here whole part of forum deliberating about quitest HDDs.

PSU: RMx is imo the greatest quiet PSU in it's price category. It's here few years, was once revised, so we can call it reliable. But RMi I find overpriced, because of paying for ,,i" you rather don't need.

Fans: I just don't know, how they perform, because I've never seen them compared to some worth buying ones. It's impossible to predict fan peformance basing on official specification due to different measuring methods. But Cooler Master's Silencio cases equipped with them in even faster version are damn ovens - we can only guess why.

Nice strong, but quiet ones from any budget category are: be quiet! Pure Wings 2; Fractal Design Dynamic X2; Scythe Kaze Flex 1200 rpm; be quiet! Silent Wings 3. There're options of 120mm fans, 140 mm, there're 3-pin ones and 4-pin ones, there're different speeds - check avaialbility, prices and then we can talk.

The only one thing I'm not sure are motherboard and SSD choices. Generally B450 don't support speed of PCIe 4.0 drives and I see one of the fastest and most expensive 4.0 one in your offer - 980 PRO. But I remember, there was some damn mess about 4.0 support on Asus boards. Maybe other colleagues will tell you more.

Horseman
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:08 am

Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:09 pm

Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:50 pm
CPU: 3900X - awesome choice
Indeed. If for no other reason, it was worth making this thread just due to that, I'm very thankful for all the posts pushing me to AMD. I think the 3900X will be around 30 times (!!!) faster than my current CPU when rendering. :)
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:50 pm
Cooler: 34 Duo - great performer for great price, but needs to be noisy to provide such and needed in case of 3900X performance. The worst type of cooler, if we talk about quiet operation - tiny tower with two crazy fast fans. Smaller radiator, so more work for fans, cheap amount of four heatpipes makes it worse, paint also (but it's rather scientific difference).

Go with Scythe Fuma 2 - it's adequate for 3900X and need of quiet operation. If cheaper, take mentioned by Abula Scythe Mugen 5 rev. B or be quiet! Shadow Rock 3 - rather the same in terms of cooling and noise, both great quality, so reliable - both killers in their price category. The problem is your case - I just can't google, how high cooler it can store. It should be fine, but it should be also checked ;)
Thanks. I'll try to find if those are available here. I know some shops have them, but I'm not sure if this particular shop has access to those brands.

For reference, not sure if it helps, I'm using the Scythe Ninja on my case. Rev. b, I think. It's 10 or 13 years old.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:50 pm
RAM: Fine if nicely priced compared to the same MHz/CL alternatives.
OK.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:50 pm
PSU: RMx is imo the greatest quiet PSU in it's price category. It's here few years, was once revised, so we can call it reliable. But RMi I find overpriced, because of paying for ,,i" you rather don't need.
Great, I'll choose the 650 RMx. I think it'll be more than enough even if I upgrade the graphics card to something like the 3070 or similar 2 or 3 years from now.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:50 pm
Fans: I just don't know, how they perform, because I've never seen them compared to some worth buying ones. It's impossible to predict fan peformance basing on official specification due to different measuring methods. But Cooler Master's Silencio cases equipped with them in even faster version are damn ovens - we can only guess why.

Nice strong, but quiet ones from any budget category are: be quiet! Pure Wings 2; Fractal Design Dynamic X2; Scythe Kaze Flex 1200 rpm; be quiet! Silent Wings 3. There're options of 120mm fans, 140 mm, there're 3-pin ones and 4-pin ones, there're different speeds - check avaialbility, prices and then we can talk.
I'll try to know if the shop has those brands.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:50 pm
The only one thing I'm not sure are motherboard and SSD choices. Generally B450 don't support speed of PCIe 4.0 drives and I see one of the fastest and most expensive 4.0 one in your offer - 980 PRO. But I remember, there was some damn mess about 4.0 support on Asus boards. Maybe other colleagues will tell you more.
I read a few reviews of the 860 PRO, and I was quite pleased with the reliability apparently being very good. I don't mind if it's a bit slower than other SSDs now available, if it means better reliability. I'll try to find some recent comparatives.

Thank You very much for your post.

Japanese Capacitor
Posts: 360
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Location: Warszawa, Poland

Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:08 am

I personally use newest Scythe Ninja 5, but I feel like Fuma 2 would be the best choice for CPU intensive workload with 3900X. Mugen and Shadow should be also fine, but they will be somehow worse - I would expect weaker performance mostly in terms of efficiency on low, so quiet speeds, but I haven't seen such comparison. One tower-one fan coolers tend to be weaker than two towers in such scenario. It's just impossible to predict cooler's performance, because of different configurations, conditions and workloads, but my general advice is: saving on CPU cooler gives you opposite effect to quiet operation. There's just border for every configuration, when spending more on better won't give you noticable difference, but it's also impossible to predict. The best cooler on the market is Noctua NH-D15, which I didn't reccomend you, because of just predictions combined with price. To my knowledge it's the most efficient cooler on any speed and stays as quiet as other quiet ones till all cross the border, where we just can't talk about quiet operation. So it makes it the quietest cooler, but also amazing performer, when we have to choose pefromance over silence.

Looking at previous generations 650W should be more than enough for something like future 70 cards and RMx is really quiet even close to max load.

About drives, I can't discuss without seeing the prices. I gave my type above.

Generally if you can't buy just the best options on the market in your local shop, just buy these parts anywhere else and pay somebody from local shop to visit you and put it together. I don't know, how it's in Portugal, but in Poland we don't even look at small, local computer shops - by ,,we" I mean anybody I know. We buy all from biggest stores, because they have everything, best prices, best promos and best aftersale service - less problems with RMAs and everything works fast. I know guys from my local computer store and they just make for living mostly from visiting people at home and solving issues/building computers from parts people hasn't bought from them. Their shop is almost always closed, because of that.

CA_Steve
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Re: New PC build

Post by CA_Steve » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:31 am

Or, if the shop owner can't get the cooler and fans you want, ask him if you can bring your own for him to install. I didn't see any Portugal online store availability via pcpartpicker, but Amazon.es has the Fuma 2.

Horseman
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:08 am

Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:12 pm

Today I asked about the Gigabyte board suggested above by Japanese Capacitor, but it isn't available for the next 2 weeks, so I ordered something relatively similar, the Asus TUF Gaming B550-Plus. It seems to be better than the B450 boards, so I'm happy that's solved.

Also already ordered...
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X 4.6Ghz AM4 64MB
Kingston DDR4 32GB 3200MHZ HyperX Fury Black
Samsung SSD 512GB SATA 3 Serie 860 PRO Basic R560 / W530Mb/s
WD HDD 6TB Blue 3.5" 64mb SATA 6gbb/s

Unfortunately the Corsair RM650X 650W 80 PLUS Gold Full Modular ATX isn't available, so I told him I'll keep using my current PSU for now. It's 13 years old, but it's 650W, it'll work a bit more, I hope. In 6 or 12 months when things get back to normal I'll buy a new PSU and GPU.

Only thing missing now is the CPU cooler...
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:08 am
I personally use newest Scythe Ninja 5, but I feel like Fuma 2 would be the best choice for CPU intensive workload with 3900X. Mugen and Shadow should be also fine, but they will be somehow worse - I would expect weaker performance mostly in terms of efficiency on low, so quiet speeds, but I haven't seen such comparison. One tower-one fan coolers tend to be weaker than two towers in such scenario. It's just impossible to predict cooler's performance, because of different configurations, conditions and workloads, but my general advice is: saving on CPU cooler gives you opposite effect to quiet operation. There's just border for every configuration, when spending more on better won't give you noticable difference, but it's also impossible to predict. The best cooler on the market is Noctua NH-D15, which I didn't reccomend you, because of just predictions combined with price. To my knowledge it's the most efficient cooler on any speed and stays as quiet as other quiet ones till all cross the border, where we just can't talk about quiet operation. So it makes it the quietest cooler, but also amazing performer, when we have to choose pefromance over silence.
He's having trouble getting the 2 coolers I suggested to him yesterday, the Scythe Mugen 5 rev. B and the be quiet! Shadow Rock 3, tomorrow morning I'll mail him to suggest the...
- Scythe Fuma 2
- Noctua NH-D15

But if he also can't get these, is there any other with similar performance? And also, is there any way to know if these fit inside the ANTEC 182? It's a big case, but IIRC i read here in the forum about the Noctua being problematic, size wise.

A bit off-topic, but something I also remember reading here in SPCR is the benefit of the CPU cooler providing downward airflow over the entire CPU area (VRMs, etc), I wonder if there are coolers that are particularly good cooling the motherboard.
CA_Steve wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:31 am
Or, if the shop owner can't get the cooler and fans you want, ask him if you can bring your own for him to install. I didn't see any Portugal online store availability via pcpartpicker, but Amazon.es has the Fuma 2.
Thanks, Steve, I'll try to see if he'd accept that. Don't want to step on his toes, tho.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:23 am

That TUF board is OK.

It's hard to say, how well does your PSU after 13 years. Best alternative to RMx I find Fractal Design Ion. It's electrically worse than RMx, but it's like great vs really good and new, one year old addition to the market, so not as ,,checked" as RMx. But has few advantages over RMx like: better, generally quieter and longer lasting bearing of the fan, option of running always active, flexible, so easy to menage cables and platinum certificate. I would personally have a hard choice deciding between these two and I'm leaning more and more to Ion's side. My third place goes to be quiet! Straight Power 11, but third place is like ,,not worth buying if RMx and Ion available". It's just worse than RMx and Ion, but still good. Problem is, it used to cost the same, but now prices and availability are a little crazy.

Leave the idea of Mugen and Shadow, if you don't have problem spending more for somehow better. I generally reccomend just simple choice: Fuma 2 or D15 and nothing between. But if I have to give some alternative, it's Noctua U14S. Not popular, so rather avaiable, but it's great, comparable and to me the only one worth buying Noctua's tower cooler, which isn't D15. I used for the first time this pcpartpicker, chose Portugal and see it in Globaldata store for 69 euros - it's a fair price. I don't reccomend D15, but if you're fine with spending that much for I wouldn't expect noticeably better - go for it, because it's the best, you can get. NH-D15 is also sold in SE-AM4 verision (AM4 mounting kit only) and it tends to be cheaper, so can be a good deal. If you think about U14S, remember there're two versions: regular and TR4 for Threadrippers, so don't buy TR4 one. Also ask reatailer, if cooler has AM4 mounting kit included.

Pcpartpicker even shows coolers compatibile with your case (Antec P182), but I don't know, if we can trust this thing. I used this for the first time, I don't use such things, because I always check everything with official manufacturer specifications - Antec doesn't give that opportunity. With D15 problem is right fan, which sits above RAM, so D15's height depends on height of RAM modules. With combination of D15 and Fury Black it will be needed to place this fan 2,1 mm higher, so cooler height increases to 167,1 mm. I would add 1mm more to be sure it fits. With Fuma 2 and U14s there won't be such a thing. If you really want to stick to this Antec case, just email them about it.

If we talk about motherboard cooling, I would expect Noctuas coolers being superior - their fans are higher than heatsink, so they blow everywhere around it. I don't know, how big would be a difference, it just works like that, but it also not a thing I would worry, if you don't go budget boards or overclock.

Horseman
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Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:18 pm

Thanks, Japanese Capacitor. The last few days have been an emotional rollercoaster, the news of the day today is that they found a supplier with the Corsair 650RMx. :)
Another problem solved.

Regarding the CPU cooler, after reading your post this afternoon I mailed the shop, asking if they can get the Noctua U14S, no reply yet but this way they have 4 options, I'm crossing fingers they find one of them available somewhere.

I can't help to wonder if these shortages are due to huge demand, or if it's an effect of the coronavirus, with factories producing fewer units.

Thanks again for your posts, and everyone else, I'm feeling very good with the config, it's perhaps not ideal, but certainly much better than I initially feared. ATM the only unknowns are the CPU cooler and the case fans, but I'm hoping that will also be solved soon. I'll post here as soon as I have more info.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:58 pm

It's great, that you can get RMx, because it can most likely be considered as the best option and nobody will check online your old PSU condition.

There should be no problem with getting NH-D15 or U14S. In Poland now first one is available in six big shops, SE-AM4 in one, secound in eight. For comparison Fuma 2 is available only in three shops. But with all of these examples I count only polish shops we prefer. With Fuma 2 happens it's unavaiable, but it's also offered by less shops in Poland and it's price/what you get killer, which just doesn't have any the same or even similarly priced alternative. Generally U14S performs the same as Fuma 2, so pick whatever won't slow down completing your build. Noctua is a little more expensive, but you pay for even higher quality than Scythe ( like the best vs almost the best), three times longer warranty and Noctua's aftersale service, which is considered as best - that's just most premium brand in cooler industry in every aspect.

We should wonder for a while about fans for your case - model, amount and placement. Generally from case fans and created fan curves will depend, if this computer will be quiet or not. You can check my own build in General Gallery to compare yours with how quiet computers can be nowadays. And I have quiet components, but not the quietest possible.

Shortages are combination of corona and high demand (school; work from home; new hardware premieres). These aspects affect also the prices, but there we should add recently increased transport costs from China.

And why do you think your new config is not ideal?

Horseman
Posts: 67
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Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:44 am

Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:58 pm
We should wonder for a while about fans for your case - model, amount and placement. Generally from case fans and created fan curves will depend, if this computer will be quiet or not. You can check my own build in General Gallery to compare yours with how quiet computers can be nowadays. And I have quiet components, but not the quietest possible.
I just checked your thread, and it seems very good. Besides everything else, I love your cable management, everything looks neat.

Regarding the case fans, I'm wondering if instead of 3 I should get 4, placing the extra fan on the front of the case. Because at least temporarily I'll have several HDD working. Besides the new SSD (but those don't really get warm, right?), and the new WD 6TB Blue HDD, I'll keep two WD 3TB drives, and at least for now another two 1.5TB Samsung HDDs.

My plan is to transfer the comtent of the 2 small drives to the new 6TB, and I'm hoping to set up everything to have at least one of the 3TB drives to turn off after a few minutes (if possible), but in the long run I'll probably need to get another 6TB, or bigger, so in all case scenario I'll have several HDD drives running.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:58 pm
And why do you think your new config is not ideal?

I'd say it's almost ideal, really. Compared to my ''ideal wishlist'', the only major difference is the CPU, instead of the 3900X I'd get the 5900X or the 5950X, but honestly, I'd probably never even notice the difference in my daily use. And compared to the Intel CPU I usually was planning to get, the AMD CPU is certainly much better. So, I'm very happy with the change.

The only other thing I don't see as ideal is the motherboard. As I wrote above, my plan is to have this PC for many years, and I'd feel more comfortable and relaxed if I'd get the motherboard you suggested. I'm crossing fingers the B550 ASUS Gaming has good quality components, and works for as long as possible.

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Re: New PC build

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:12 am

Spinning down the unused drives: I'm hoping Windows + all your apps + your working data will be on the SSD with all of the HDDs used for longer term storage. In any case, you can set the HDDs to spin down when not needed by going into:

Windows Settings/Power and Sleep/Additional power settings/change a power plan/change plan settings/change advanced power settings/hard disk/turn off hard disk after xx minutes.

Sigh...windows obfuscation. Used to be able to search for Power Options and get there directly.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:35 am

About cable management, you hate it or find some fun of challange in it.

SSDs aren't problematic with temperatures.

I suggest you going with three 120 mm fans: two front intakes and one rear exhaust. If we talk about realiablity, better quality you buy, more likely it will be to last longer. My type for you are Silent Wings 3 120 mm. If you want to buy something cheaper, let it be Scythe Kaze Flex 120 mm 1200 rpm, but don't go below that level. Would you want to use included case fans controller or you prefer to have them changing speed automatically, when hitting higher temps (like fan curves from my topic)?

You bought yourself a awesome CPU. For a hobbyst I find it even too much, but everybody will have different opinion. For a hobbyst time isn't money, so you rather won't noticeably benefit from faster CPU.

That Asus board is completely fine. Boards differ mostly in overcklocking potential and you are not interested. Some look at audio (this board has better one), some look at amount and type of connectors and that's generally it. Aorus Elite isn't some best and only worth to buy one. It happens to be just lowest priced imo good all-rounder B550 board. So you just missed opportunity to probably save few euros. But Asus has also more Sata ports for the HDDs you didn't mention before ;)

Horseman
Posts: 67
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Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:27 pm

CA_Steve wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:12 am
Spinning down the unused drives: I'm hoping Windows + all your apps + your working data will be on the SSD with all of the HDDs used for longer term storage. In any case, you can set the HDDs to spin down when not needed by going into:

Windows Settings/Power and Sleep/Additional power settings/change a power plan/change plan settings/change advanced power settings/hard disk/turn off hard disk after xx minutes.

Sigh...windows obfuscation. Used to be able to search for Power Options and get there directly.
Thanks Steve. I'll definitely do this as soon as I get the computer. I probably will pick one HDD to keep working, because I need to seed some torrents, but all the others can be off most of time.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:35 am
I suggest you going with three 120 mm fans: two front intakes and one rear exhaust. If we talk about realiablity, better quality you buy, more likely it will be to last longer. My type for you are Silent Wings 3 120 mm. If you want to buy something cheaper, let it be Scythe Kaze Flex 120 mm 1200 rpm, but don't go below that level. Would you want to use included case fans controller or you prefer to have them changing speed automatically, when hitting higher temps (like fan curves from my topic)?
My hand dexterity is very low, so even if I could reach the controller I'd have a hard time moving it, so my best bet is to have the fans changing speed automatically. Hopefully it's easy with the ASUS motherboard.

On a completely different subject, today a friend told me that I'm going to need to upgrade the graphics card...
''I don't think it'll even post with the UEFI BIOS on the motherboard you've picked out... Then again; it might, who knows, try it out!! But definitely don't be surprised if you need to pay for a GPU in the build.''


As I described initially, my plan is to reuse the GPU I have, an AMD 6670, to avoid having to buy a new one, with the crazy prices currently going. It's not ideal, but it isn't a very old graphics card, and it's perfectly okay 99% of the time.
But now I'm worried, lol, is this something I should be worried about?

If my current graphics card doesn't work when they (the shop) places it in the motherboard, I'm screwed. As far as I can see it's almost impossible to find a GPU these days. Not in the shops I searched - and in the local forums I'm reading some ppl are saying that it's possible to find a few, but costing many hundreds, at least 3 times the normal price.

In this case, it'd mean my PC would/could be in the shop for who knows how long, and I'd be without computer for weeks or months. And I being paranoid?

Japanese Capacitor
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Location: Warszawa, Poland

Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:00 am

So the best for you will be automatic control. I explained, how I create fan curves in my topic to keep it silent, when no load, keep it reasonably well ventilated and quiet during load - you can copy my method, only your numbers will be different. I asked because I couldn't find, how this fan controller even look like and I would probably need this to advise you right type of fan. So generally the best fans for you will be PWM (4-pin versions) of the ones I mentioned: Silent Wings 3 120 mm 1450 rpm PWM and Kaze Flex 120 mm 1200 rpm PWM. Kaze Flex also exist in Slim version, which is unnoticeably worse than regular, so they are also good option. There're also 3-pin versions of mentioned fans and should be fine too, but one thing. Chosen motherboard's specification and manual doesn't tell, if fan headers allow to voltage control speed of 3-pin fans. It's generally standard nowadays, but nothing for sure. You can email Asus with it, if needed. Generally when chosing the fans with all of these versions always pay attention to: size; 4-pin or 3-pin and speed (rpm). For example you don't want to buy faster than I suggested 3-pin fans, because even their lowest speed is always too high to be quiet. You can always type here which ones are available and then I'll tell you, what is the best choice.

I don't know, why this card wouldn't work with new motherboard, but maybe I'm not knowledgeable enough. I think you should email Asus about it.

CA_Steve
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Re: New PC build

Post by CA_Steve » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:33 am

Your 6670 is a PCIe 2.0 x 16 based card. Hardware-wise, it should be compatible with any of your mobo's PCIe x16 slots as PCIe is backward compatible. The bigger problem is whether or not AMD's drivers will support the card under Windows 10.

AMD stopped active support for the card. You can use it, but have to use a legacy driver with the last approved release in 2015.

So, you can get the card to work, but it may have some repercussions with any s/w that may wish to use newer gpu features or need DirectX 12.

Horseman
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Re: New PC build

Post by Horseman » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:53 am

Thanks Japanese Capacitor and.CA_Steve.

I'll follow your advice. I haven't yet heard back from the shop, so I don't know yet which are available (if any), tho.

Regarding the GPU and possible compatibility, I got no luck finding ASUS mail contact here in Portugal, but they have phone, during the week. I'll try to call them.

But in the meantime, and reading CA_Steve's post I got more worried, because even if the hardware is compatible, perhaps the software isn't. Or at least, not fully compatible. Which may a problem, with the specific software's I use. I'll try to find out.

I'm starting to think that the safest solution is to try to buy a new GPU right away, and not risk a bad surprise. I can only blame myself, of course, for delaying the upgrade so much, and now my typical bad luck is striking.

I'm thinking that if I buy a new GPU, it kind of makes sense to also buy a new PC case, that way everything would be new, and in the coming months I'd take care of this old PC, removing the damaged hard drive, formatting, and making it usable as secondary PC.

Just thinking out loud, but can someone confirm that the Fractal Design R6 would be a good choice? Could I use the original case fans, to try to at least to cut a few euros from the bill?

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: New PC build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:03 pm

Isn't any just Asus support mail? Not connected to country.

Don't you use Windows 10 on that computer? If everything worked fine with current config, it should work the same with upgraded. But I have to say, that I'm completely not interested in software things, so not good at - maybe I don't know something.

I would just try that computer with owned card. Buying a card now isn't impossible - just prices are crazy. That's just a matter of few days of shipment.

About case thought. Upgrading old case with high-end fans as Silent Wings 3 gives me mixed feelings. It would cost 50-60% of a new case, which rather would be better in anything and have by default fans, which rather will satisfy you. Your case starts to feel a little old with new config - you don't have SSD mounts for your new SSD and there's not too much space for new GPU, if top HDD cage installed. If you want to keep here five HDDs, you will need this top cage and if you want a quietest GPU, you want it biggest, so it can not fit - not sure due to lack of such measurements and measuring it with only an eye looking at photo and knowing lenght of the whole case ;). But what I said isn't much bad - I just wouldn't supect it would be as good as modern cases in terms of cooling, silencing, dust filtration or anything, which maybe is not important for you. 10+ years has passed and even Antec for some reason doesn't make cases like that anymore. But do what you want with it - I just told my opinion about this case, but I also think that changing isn't needed - it's just optional.

Define R6 is from the best. The best quiet cases on the market I find Defines: R5, R6, 7. But worth considering if better priced are also Nanoxia Deep Silence 8, 8 Pro and Antec P101 Silent. If you can live with only two HDDs, maybe it's worth to try something smaller after years of having big case: Define C or Define 7 Compact. From cases, which doesn't have three fans, I would feel better with buying more - having one fan blowing directly on CPU cooler makes a difference. Cases without windows will be quieter.

EDIT: Forgot to mention about Define R6 fans. They are great in terms of cooling and noise - I tested them. I personally use Silent Wings 3 140 mm instead and they are even stronger and even quieter. I just had them before buying Define 7 and compared both sets. But three of SW3 cost almost like half of the case, so I would reccomend such an operation only the ones, who just want better and don't calculate, if it's worth it.

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Re: New PC build

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:40 pm

If your current system is Win 10 and your current s/w works with the gfx card, then all you have to do is remember to load the legacy driver with the new install.

If your current system is Win 7 or 8 and you plan to update to Win 10 with the legacy driver, that's when the s/w app uncertainty might come into play if your app s/w is being updated as well.

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