Upgradeability of am2 vs core2duo

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K9-Cop
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Upgradeability of am2 vs core2duo

Post by K9-Cop » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:52 am

We already know that if we buy an AM2 board today, that we'll be able to stick am3 chips into them (more or less). That makes for an easy upgrade option in the future. How upgradeable are the new core 2 duo mobo's going to be?

In other words, you could get am2 in the short-term and lose some performance, but have a big gain later on when AMD comes out with something new. What do things look like on the Intel side. If I buy core2 E6600 today, are there likely to be big upgrade options down the road?

Anvar
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Post by Anvar » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:11 am

Intel is sticking with Socket 775 by all accounts, so you should have the same upgrade path for Intel as for AMD.

mb2
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Post by mb2 » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:15 pm

some of them support the upcoming quad core.. i think all they need is X-phase power circuitry or something (in addition to C2D support). where X is some highish number. IIRC.

GlassMan
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Post by GlassMan » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:10 pm

Historically intel will do something to prevent upgradability. If they don't change sockets they will change voltage requirements, as they did with these C2D's vs the engineering samples which could be used on older 775 boards.

They have done this with all sockets since slot 1 (or if you like, socket 7).

Denorios
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Post by Denorios » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:35 pm

I’d have to agree with GlassMan. Since Intel manufactures chipsets as well as processors, it benefits considerably by forcing consumers to upgrade their motherboard every time it brings out a new core design. They have no strong incentive to stick with a particular socket/voltage/chipset combination for very long.

K9-Cop
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Post by K9-Cop » Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:26 pm

Interesting points. I guess to be more candid, I really, really, really like the idea of purchasing an E6600 with a Nvidia 590 sli mobo. However, that's pretty expensive. The E6600 is $440 Canadian (taxes and such included) and I'm sure the mobo will be a lot too. So I'm kind of thinking that maybe I should just go with an AM2 board with an EE amd x2 4600 for more like $380 Canadian.

Or maybe I should just wait another month or two and see where the prices go.

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Post by Anvar » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:53 am

You can't really compare the X2 4600 with the E6600. The 6600 is a lot faster than the 4600, it even manages to beat the FX-62 in some benchmarks. The 4600 is much closer to the E6400 in terms of performance, and that is priced a little below the 4600.

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Post by Le_Gritche » Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:36 am

Denorios wrote:I’d have to agree with GlassMan. Since Intel manufactures chipsets as well as processors, it benefits considerably by forcing consumers to upgrade their motherboard every time it brings out a new core design. They have no strong incentive to stick with a particular socket/voltage/chipset combination for very long.
Interesting point, especially in light of the recent AMD-ATI merger.
AMD already announced that AM3 CPUs would work with AM2 motherboards and DDR2, but if they develop more integrated CPU-chipset combos in the future (or if they favor their bottom line at the expense of their customers) they could very well do the Intel way next time.
In the past they switched socket for hardware reasons (dual-channel then DDR2 for 754->939 and 939->AM2), maybe someday it will just be for forced upgrade and planned obsolescence reasons.

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Post by Zed Lopez » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:14 am

One upcoming Intel socket change is well-documented. Santa Rosa is scheduled for 2007 (I've seen March and April for the month) and, like Centrino, is defined as a specific combination of CPU, chipset, and wireless adapter. Santa Rosa will include Merom, but in a new socket, Socket P.

This is all intended as a laptop standard -- who knows whether Socket P will matter for desktops.

Longwalker
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Post by Longwalker » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:57 pm

Intel's 'upgrade path' has historically been a raw deal leading to an abrupt dead end. It would not be particularly rational to expect Conroe to have any more of an upgrade path than previous Intel chip families had.

If you want the absolute best 32bit performance available now and aren't concerned about 64bit performance or CPU upgrades, go with a top-end Conroe. If you're interested in 64bit performance or CPU upgrades, take the 32bit performance hit and go with AM2.

accord1999
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Post by accord1999 » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:17 pm

Anvar wrote:You can't really compare the X2 4600 with the E6600. The 6600 is a lot faster than the 4600, it even manages to beat the FX-62 in some benchmarks. The 4600 is much closer to the E6400 in terms of performance, and that is priced a little below the 4600.
Based on most reviews, I would say the E6600 is actually more comparable to a FX-64.
Longwalker wrote:Intel's 'upgrade path' has historically been a raw deal leading to an abrupt dead end. It would not be particularly rational to expect Conroe to have any more of an upgrade path than previous Intel chip families had.
AMD's not always had high upgradeability, numerous FSB changes in Socket A, Socket 754 to Socket 939.
If you want the absolute best 32bit performance available now and aren't concerned about 64bit performance or CPU upgrades, go with a top-end Conroe. If you're interested in 64bit performance or CPU upgrades, take the 32bit performance hit and go with AM2.
Conroe's performance in 64-bit code remains higher than the A64.

GlassMan
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Post by GlassMan » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:45 pm

accord1999 wrote:
Anvar wrote:You can't really compare the X2 4600 with the E6600. The 6600 is a lot faster than the 4600, it even manages to beat the FX-62 in some benchmarks. The 4600 is much closer to the E6400 in terms of performance, and that is priced a little below the 4600.
Based on most reviews, I would say the E6600 is actually more comparable to a FX-64.
In performance maybe, but in price we don't know yet. Normally intel would sell 50 million x86 cpu's this quarter, there will be 1-1.7 million conroes available to oems and retailers. Good luck getting one without going to alienware or dell. (Sold only in highend systems because they have to make up for $300 systems somehow. And don't price an intel without it's motherboard, 50- 100 more than an equivielent AMD board
Longwalker wrote:Intel's 'upgrade path' has historically been a raw deal leading to an abrupt dead end. It would not be particularly rational to expect Conroe to have any more of an upgrade path than previous Intel chip families had.
AMD's not always had high upgradeability, numerous FSB changes in Socket A, Socket 754 to Socket 939..
And how many sockets and revions did intel go through while socket a was viable till last year with sempron cpu's. s754 was released as a budget socket, and every one new that and that s939 was coming 6 months behind it (s940 was already dual channel which proceded both. Of course you can still by cpu's for all three, just got a new 90nm for my s754. It's called support for their standards. If I want one, AMD will continue to make it.
If you want the absolute best 32bit performance available now and aren't concerned about 64bit performance or CPU upgrades, go with a top-end Conroe. If you're interested in 64bit performance or CPU upgrades, take the 32bit performance hit and go with AM2.
Conroe's performance in 64-bit code remains higher than the A64.
Yes with it cut in half or more, of course we really don't know for sure, the 64 bit testing is at the stage of conroe testing 3 months ago. Interesting trends but not enough variety to know.

Of course, by the time most can buy a conroe (at any price) these discussions will be history, and we'll be talking about something else.

Arturo
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AMD

Post by Arturo » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:25 pm

Without starting another thread may ask if anyone has seen the AMD AM2 3800 X2 in the ADO or the ADU configuration? I read reviews about them, but I don't know of any site that sells them. I don't know much about this stuff, are they new and just not available yet? I understand they cannot be overclocked much, so can I buy an ADA and undervolt it on the MSI Geforce board?

kai_
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Post by kai_ » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:20 am

How many of us can say that they've ever truly upgraded using the same motherboard? I can't ever remember having done so - a new processor also means a new motherboard.

You've got to remember that other bits can also change on the motherboard other than just the CPU socket, AGP -> PCI-E and DDR -> DDR2 for one. I mean it was all well and good if you jumped on the s939 motherboards early but since AGP moved to PCI-E you'd be pretty much shafted.

The best solution is to buy within your means and buy the best for the present. It's the only way in my experience.

Le_Gritche
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Re: AMD

Post by Le_Gritche » Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:29 am

Arturo wrote:Without starting another thread may ask if anyone has seen the AMD AM2 3800 X2 in the ADO or the ADU configuration? I read reviews about them, but I don't know of any site that sells them. I don't know much about this stuff, are they new and just not available yet? I understand they cannot be overclocked much, so can I buy an ADA and undervolt it on the MSI Geforce board?
If the ADA/ADO and ADU refers to 89W, 65W and 35W models, you can read this thread. And putting where you live in your profile would help before asking for availability. Reading your other messages I think you live in the US and according to the thread, EE CPUs weren't available there yet.

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Post by HammerSandwich » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:51 am

kai_ wrote:How many of us can say that they've ever truly upgraded using the same motherboard?
I did several CPU upgrades back in the Socket A days. And my current Opteron 144 will probably be replaced by a dual-core before too long.

GlassMan
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Post by GlassMan » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:08 am

I did with s754, and will (dual core) with my very early s939, soon.(and pci-e was part of the s939 package day one).
Many do it with AMD because you can. You can't with intel, so you don't . It really is that simple.

vitaminc
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Post by vitaminc » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:17 am

No reason for you to go AM2 if you have S939 right now, as AM3 (due next fall) is clearly better with a lot better support for K8L.

AM2 life expectancy = ONE year.

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Post by Lawrence Lee » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:36 am

AMD's not always had high upgradeability, numerous FSB changes in Socket A, Socket 754 to Socket 939.
Yeah but AMD doesn't make their own chipsets, so when Socket A CPUs went up in FSB and the motherboards couldn't handle them, it wasn't really their fault; the chipset makers never planned ahead. As for 754/939, most of those motherboards could run every single CPU that came out for their respective socket.

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Post by jaganath » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:11 pm

AM2 life expectancy = ONE year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM3
AMD has confirmed that AM3 processors will work in AM2 motherboards. However, AM2 processors will not be compatible with AM3 motherboards. This is because AM2 chips lack the proper memory controller for DDR3 memory (since AMD chips have the memory controller directly on the processor itself, instead of on the Northbridge), and AM3 processors will have a memory controller that supports both DDR2 and DDR3 (though it lacks the capability of running both at the same time). This has the benefit that anyone who buys a Socket AM2 motherboard will be able to freely upgrade to any AM3 processor in the future, ensuring that AM2 will have a long future and not become obsolete too soon.

GlassMan
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Post by GlassMan » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:17 pm

s754 was released as a value socket, and to get A64 out quickly. s939 was held up by the pci-e spec. So AMD held s939 til pci-e was ready. EVERYONE knew s939 would soon be out before s754 was launched. There was no deception or false promises.
My early s939 is compatable with all s939 chips. That's why I am confident that future cpu's will be compatable. AMD tells the truth, and have walked the walk.
Unlike intel, who until a month ago maintained conroe would be compatable with current boards.

vitaminc
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Post by vitaminc » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:13 pm

jaganath wrote:
AM2 life expectancy = ONE year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM3
AMD has confirmed that AM3 processors will work in AM2 motherboards. However, AM2 processors will not be compatible with AM3 motherboards. This is because AM2 chips lack the proper memory controller for DDR3 memory (since AMD chips have the memory controller directly on the processor itself, instead of on the Northbridge), and AM3 processors will have a memory controller that supports both DDR2 and DDR3 (though it lacks the capability of running both at the same time). This has the benefit that anyone who buys a Socket AM2 motherboard will be able to freely upgrade to any AM3 processor in the future, ensuring that AM2 will have a long future and not become obsolete too soon.
Those information are incorrect, unfortunately.

AM3 processors (K8L) will be drop-in compatible with current socket AM2 while losing certain key features such as HyperTransport 3.0 support.

AM3 is scheduled for release with the K8L processors at the second half of 2007, not 2008.

You will be more welcomed to dig on AMD's Tech Analyst Day (June 1, 2006) presentation slides. :)

In summary, do not go AM2 if you have a semi decent 939 system.

Current C2D LGA 775 boards are/will be compatible with the upcoming Kentsfield (Q4 of 2006) and the Conroe die shrink in second half of 2007.

GlassMan
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Post by GlassMan » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:04 pm

Doesn't matter if you lose HT3.0 in a single socket board.
Good, K8L in 2007, then the desision is
Am2 upgrade to K8L.
s939 4x4 ( to actually use HT 3.0) or a single socket board with you choice of memory. Probably AM3 for most up to date chipset,
Conroe users can go AM2/3 to reuse ol memory.
Don't worry, even a s754 owner isn't really tempted, at least till 65nm, very wait and see.

That's a stretch, where did you get your info. If intel, why do you believe it?

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Post by Poodle » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:32 am

Wierd that Amd didn't go Lga with Am2 and thus Am3.

Some are saying that LGA socket gives better contact and more stable vcore. Is this just BS or is there any thruth to it? The Core2 (early atleast) overclock like mad so this has made me think about if the socket itself has anything to do with it. :?


If you wanna go DDr3 on Conroe you still have to change motherboard to get the new mem ctrl.

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Post by smilingcrow » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:15 am

I sometimes wish there was a slider in my web browser that allowed me to turn down the fanboyism or even if it had a Fanboyism mute button. I must ask Opera for this in the next release.

The way I see it is this (trying to be neutral) and this is only from the perspective of someone looking for kick ass performance, at a low price, with low power consumption and therefore easy to cool quietly.

Today – Intel 100%.
End of the year – C2D 65nm versus 65nm AM2 – AMD close the gap; if 65nm is a straightforward die shrink (which seems very likely), then Intel retain the lead. Otherwise, all bets are off.
H2 2007 – K8L 65nm versus 45nm C2D - anybody’s guess. K8L could slaughter C2D at 65nm. But if that’s the case Intel could position C2Q (Core 2 Quatro) at 45nm against it and sweep up.

What I’m saying is that nobody really has a bloody clue. If you want to chase performance then you can’t tie yourself into a particular socket. AMD might release killer AM3 CPUs than run in today’s AM2 boards, but Intel could counter with a quad core CPU at 45nm which requires a new motherboard even though it’s still LGA 775 and it may still crush AMD in the value and performance stakes. Who cares if a motherboard upgrade costs you £50 if your CPU upgrade is unbeatable?

I applaud AMD for their socket upgradeability, but at the same time it’s not the most important issue. If the above seems a bit pro Intel, it’s not meant to be, it’s based on the fact that Intel still have a massive lead at the manufacturing level and that gives them a big advantage.
I think AMD still has a technology lead at the quad core and quad socket level, but how relevant that turns out to be for desktop performance remains to be seen. 4x4 versus Kentsfield (or is it Cloverton!) should start to make this clearer later this year.

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Post by vitaminc » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:03 am

GlassMan wrote:That's a stretch, where did you get your info. If intel, why do you believe it?
As I said in my previous post, AMD Tech Analyst day. The presentation (in .pdf) is available to everyone so you could google it up. :)

GlassMan
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Post by GlassMan » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:40 am

You will be more welcomed to dig on AMD's Tech Analyst Day (June 1, 2006) presentation slides. Smile

In summary, do not go AM2 if you have a semi decent 939 system.

Current C2D LGA 775 boards are/will be compatible with the upcoming Kentsfield (Q4 of 2006) and the Conroe die shrink in second half of 2007.
GlassMan wrote:
That's a stretch, where did you get your info. If intel, why do you believe it?


As I said in my previous post, AMD Tech Analyst day. The presentation (in .pdf) is available to everyone so you could google it up. Smile
Sorry I don't understand how or why AMD Tech Analyst Day is a source about intel socket compatability for a yet to be release cpu. First I ever heard AMD was in charge of intel.

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