HD Editing machine on a SUPER tight budget!

speedkar9 · Post by **speedkar9** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:18 pm

Looking to build a machine that will edit and playback raw video from an HD camcorder. However funding is a bit tight, and the upper limit for the computer is around $400 CAD.
Here is what I've come up with:

AMD 5200 x2 (2x1MB cache) - $82
Asus M3A78-EM - $95
2x1GB Kingston 667 - $30
ATX case + generic 500W - $45
500GB WD hard drive - $70
Reuse DVDRW

Total $292 CAD + tax

I chose the CPU because of its 2x1MB of cache rather than 2x512kb cache of other X2 CPU's, as i figured it would be better for editing/ rendering video. The motherboard (780G) has an HDMI output needed for HD display for playback (perhaps on a large LCD HDTV).

A few questions to be asked here:
Is the CPU sufficient for HD encoding? Or will it be painfully slow? As I said before, something with alot of cache will probably fair better. Are there any other recommendations?
Is 780G the way to go for graphics? Will adding a $50 video card (ATi 3450 or 4350) going to boost the performance significantly?
Is 2GB of RAM sufficient on Vista x64? Or will 4GB (+~$20) boost performance by a noticeable amount?

I ask these questions here because I know some use their machines for HD content primarily. As you can see by the choice of the case/ PSU, silence is definitely not an issue here. Note: all prices are CAD.

Thanks alot in advance!

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:59 pm

Good choices, given budget, and you can probably OC some for worthwhile gains. The WD640 would be my choice tho -- higher areal density on 2 platters, faster speed. Price should be very close. Maybe shell out for 2x2gb RAM. Keep your fingers crossed on the generic PSU. It'll be noisy. MAybe check out whatever's left in theSPCR lab clearance corner.

FartingBob · Post by **FartingBob** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:07 am

Id consider using 4GB of RAM, HD video editing is one of the main reasons why someone would need more than 2GB currently.

speedkar9 · Post by **speedkar9** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:25 am

I'm kinda worried about the CPU, but more so the video card. Will the CPU and onboard video be up to the task of rendering? (playback should be fine on a 780G right?) Or is adding a cheap card worth it?
Thanks

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:44 am

speedkar9 wrote:I'm kinda worried about the CPU, but more so the video card. Will the CPU and onboard video be up to the task of rendering? (playback should be fine on a 780G right?) Or is adding a cheap card worth it?
Thanks

Get a 45nm Intel chip---a Pentium Dual Core E5200, if that is all you can afford. The 780G is nice, and I recommend it for decoding, but you will want more cpu power for encoding. Think about splurging on a Core 2 Quad Q8200 even.

A cheap G31 motherboard will be fine. Some G31 motherboards have DVI output if you really want to hook it to a set with HDMI. Normal analog VGA connection is fine. My Samsung LCD TV won't automatically shut off when using its HDMI inputs, but will on VGA.

jessekopelman · Post by **jessekopelman** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:58 pm

More cores is better for video encoding. I don't know about Canadian pricing, but a Phenom 9600 can be had for $120 in the US. No need to go beyond the 780G for video playback.

speedkar9 · Post by **speedkar9** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:41 pm

Will DVI/ VGA playback HD video on a digital display? Or will I be loosing some quality in doing so?

The Phenom is out of the budget right now ($169CAD for the 9550, and thats "only" 2.2GHz), are there any other recommendations? I'd hate to go G31 because of the limitations of the budget boards, and their inability to expand (i.e. only 2 RAM slots, older CPU support), where as the 780G boards already support 8-16GB's of RAM and the new AM3 CPU's for future upgrades.

Besides the 4GB's of RAM, you think adding a video card will help with performance when encoding HD video?

jessekopelman · Post by **jessekopelman** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:16 pm

speedkar9 wrote:Besides the 4GB's of RAM, you think adding a video card will help with performance when encoding HD video?

In the future when software widely supports offloading some encoding to the GPU, yes. Right now, no. When the software becomes available, the GPUs will be far better than what you could buy today for the same price. Don't worry about a video card for now.

theycallmebruce · Post by **theycallmebruce** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:44 am

MOAR RAM!!!

Yes, get yourself a 780G and max that sucka wit DDR2. For video editing, RAM is your friend.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:54 am

speedkar9 wrote:I'd hate to go G31 because of the limitations of the budget boards, and their inability to expand (i.e. only 2 RAM slots, older CPU support), where as the 780G boards already support 8-16GB's of RAM and the new AM3 CPU's for future upgrades.

Yeah, poor memory capacity is a problem with all Intel chispets. Okay, splurge on a G45 or Geforce 9300 motherboard with 4 DIMM slots. The Phenoms just seem so poor (hot and slow) compared to the Core 2 Quads, and especially the Core i7.

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:03 am

QuietOC wrote:Yeah, poor memory capacity is a problem with all Intel chispets. Okay, splurge on a G45 or Geforce 9300 motherboard with 4 DIMM slots.

The Phenoms just seem so poor (hot and slow) compared to the Core 2 Quads, and especially the Core i7.

You ignore the poster's budget requirements & comments. Under CA$400. Quadcores are completely out at this budget. His initial choices look good for the money... tho he was under budget a bit, which gave room for minor upgrades in RAM, maybe clock speed of CPU.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:06 am

MikeC wrote:You ignore the poster's budget requirements & comments. Under CA$400. Quadcores are completely out at this budget. His initial choices look good for the money... tho he was under budget a bit, which gave room for minor upgrades in RAM, maybe clock speed of CPU.

I recommended a E5200 + G31. I don't think that is more than a X2 5200 + 780G. As much as I like the AMD chipsets and X2s they just aren't as good at encoding. I believe that was the OP's question. What did I miss?

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:17 am

QuietOC -- weren't you talking about Phenoms and Core i7?

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:29 am

MikeC wrote:QuietOC -- weren't you talking about Phenoms and Core i7?

I think Jesse mentioned it above. The OP said something about wanting to upgrade (using the 780G motherboard). I can't recommend upgrading to a Phenom, when the desktop versions of the Core i7 will be out. I don't think Core 2 Quads are great for most people, but they are the best choice right now for encoding.

E5200 now, upgrade to Q8200 (or similar)
X2 5200 now, upgrade to 45nm Phenom?

This could all be solved with a 780G-type chipset for Intel.

speedkar9 wrote:Will DVI/ VGA playback HD video on a digital display? Or will I be loosing some quality in doing so?

HDMI is a superset of DVI. You can get cheap cables with DVI-I on one side and HDMI on the other. HDMI and DisplayPort are nice in that they have the digital audio included in the same connection.

Sure there should be some loss with the VGA connection, but it is really just fine. I guess you don't get that high tech feeling when using ye olde ancient VGA cable.

jessekopelman · Post by **jessekopelman** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:45 pm

QuietOC wrote:Sure there should be some loss with the VGA connection, but it is really just fine. I guess you don't get that high tech feeling when using ye olde ancient VGA cable.

The real issue with VGA is that newer TVs don't have VGA input and the OP talked about connecting this system to a HDTV.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:56 pm

jessekopelman wrote:The real issue with VGA is that newer TVs don't have VGA input and the OP talked about connecting this system to a HDTV.

If he can't afford much of a PC, he can't afford much of a HDTV. I think this Samsung I'm using is still being sold. It was just bought a few months ago.

speedkar9 · Post by **speedkar9** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:34 pm

Interesting.
So now let me summarize:

Intel E5200- $108 CAD
Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L $68
Asus P5KPL-CM $71

CPU + mobo= $176 CAD

AMD 5200X2 $82
Asus M3A78-EM $95
CPU + Mobo= $177 CAD

How interesting, same price. Now lets compare:

Intel E5200- 2MB cache @ 2.5GHz
AMD 5200 X2- 2x1MB cache @2.6GHz

For HD encoding, which one takes preference, more cache, or a faster core clock? I was under the impression that more cache will help alot (and have first hand experience from 128kb celerons

) Again, given the budget, the Quads are out of my reach now. I've had a bad experience with retail Intel HSF (damn pushpins) and would prefer not go go through that trouble again. Remember, silence isn't important in this build, so stock HSF's will have to do.

As for the motherboard, the two Intel G31 boards (available at the local computer store) can hold MAX 4GB of RAM in two sockets. Now if I'm going to put 4GB in there to start with... that really limits the upgrade potential. Furthermore, the CPU support is limited to current C2D/ C2Q CPU's, while the AMD 780G's have expandability to AM3 CPUs (perhaps more of a potential boost come upgrade time).
The other thing to mention is the 780G boards from AMD actually have a digital output (HDMI/ displayport/ DVI), where as the Intel boards dont even have a DVI port to begin with!

And how is encoding/ decoding (playback) on G31 boards? I heard that the G45 boards were struggling to match the performance (both 3D and HD playback) of the 780G, so I wonder how the G31 would(n't) fair...

Regarding the type of connection used: does the 720p/ 1080i/1080p have anything to do with running it through an analog cable? I thought it would just degrade the quality to SD. Is it similar to running RCA component cables, vs. going through RGB or S video? Also, does the monitor/TV resolution and size have anything to do with what kind of video card you need to run HD video? (I know it matters in games.)

Thanks alot for the input! This really helps. (BTW, given previous responses, I think I'm gonna spring for 4GB's of RAM and stick with onboard video).

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:02 pm

speedkar9 --

If you look at these video encoding benchmarks (and the ones on the next 2 pages), the difference between AMD and C2D processors of your choice seems moot.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd ... 18-29.html

The other thing I would say is, so what if it takes 5~20% longer? -- if it indeed does. You set it to go and walk away for a while -- the way I used to do in the old days applying certain Photoshop filters to huge image files for posters. The other strengths of the AMD/780G platform as you've summarized look overwhelming.

And you''re right, Phenom 2 is coming. We have pre-release info on hand (samples coming) and it looks very promising.

Spare Tire · Post by **Spare Tire** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:32 pm

When GPGPU comes around, will the integrated 780G help? It's a 3300 at the core.

jessekopelman · Post by **jessekopelman** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:57 am

Spare Tire wrote:When GPGPU comes around, will the integrated 780G help? It's a 3300 at the core.

No. But by the time it comes (the change in programing techniques is not a small hurdle) I bet a $50 vid card will trounce both the high end CPU of that day and any of today's $200 vid cards. Then again, there may no longer be such things as $50 vid cards by then, as most CPU will have GPU cores integrated and the whole issue will be moot.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:19 am

speedkar9 wrote: Intel E5200- 2MB cache @ 2.5GHz
AMD 5200 X2- 2x1MB cache @2.6GHz

The E5200 matches the performance of the fastest Athlon X2 6400+. Also it runs much cooler, and it is easy to overclock it to at least ~3GHz even on cheap G31 motherboards.

Cache generally has little effect on encoding or decoding speed (the data set doesn't fit), but memory and drive speed are important.

The E5200's low FSB speed cuts its useable memory bandwidth in half. To really give the E5200 some memory performance takes some work raising the FSB (or a motherboard like an Abit IP35-E.)

speedkar9 · Post by **speedkar9** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:32 am

I'm not into overclocking atm. I don't think the G31 is something sensible to build around given its limitations. The G33/G45 is just too expensive. Even G31/P35 + a $25 ATI 3450/2400 is pushing the budget.

So I guess an X2 5200 paired with a 780G is probably the better way to go. What if a got a better deal, on say, an X2 6000 (I know its 125W!!) CPU- would the jump to 3.0GHz make a noticeable difference in performance?

As for the 640GB WD mentioned before, how do you tell from the model number if its a double or single platter drive, and which one is faster? (I'm looking at the WD6400AAKS).

AMD X2 5200 w/stock cooler -$83
Asus M3A78-EM- $95
WD6400AAKS- $76
Kingston 667 2x2GB -$52
ATX case + 500W- $45
Total: $351 CAD + tax- seems just within budget.

Are there any other suggestions?
Oh, and just to make sure I pursue other opportunities, what do you guys think of the Geforce 8200/ 8300 series of chipsets from nVidia?

angelkiller · Post by **angelkiller** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:48 am

speedkar9 wrote:As for the 640GB WD mentioned before, how do you tell from the model number if its a double or single platter drive, and which one is faster? (I'm looking at the WD6400AAKS).

There is only one version of the WD6400AAKS and it has two platters. Be aware that a 5400rpm version exists but carries a model number of WD6400AACS.

Post by **CA_Steve** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:56 am

CPU clock speed will be king for video encoding. I'd go with an intel cpu and OC. While you may not be "into" overclocking, it's really a simple way to get a 25%+ improvement in performance per $ spent without changing any stock voltages or worrying about temps. I doubt you'd get the same out of AMD CPU.

speedkar9 · Post by **speedkar9** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:36 pm

I found something interesting:
http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.ph ... cid=170.45... $379CAD doesn't sound bad, considering the E7300 (pushing the budget), plus there is 13% sales tax here

.

I wonder what motherboard they used for a build like that. The parts' costs go something like this:

E7300 -$155
2x1GB 667 -$30
320GB hard drive-$56
case + 500W- $45
Total $286 CAD
All prices are approximations. If we do some subtraction: $379-286 = $93 CAD. Basically that's what I'd have to spend on a motherboard/ video setup to go for an Intel.It must support at least 8GB RAM, and have a DVI output. (Another option is P31/P35 + $33 ATi 2400/3450...). Suggestions please.

Also, would it be wise to kick down on the CPU to an E5200, and up the RAM to 4GB?

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:01 pm

speedkar9 wrote:Also, would it be wise to kick down on the CPU to an E5200, and up the RAM to 4GB?

The E5200 and E7200 are pretty similar in performance. The E7x00 chips have a faster FSB (but slower FSB than E8x00 chips) and slightly larger cache. The E5200 is just the cheapest Intel 45nm chip. The older 65nm Pentium Dual Core E2xx0 series are alright too if they are significantly cheaper. The Celeron E1x00's are a bit too crippled.

If you want something very fast and very easy, get the cheapest Gigabyte G31 motherboard and a E7200 and 4GB of the cheapest DDR2 800. Raise the FSB from 266MHz to 400MHz and lower the memory ratio to 1:1 and enjoy a 3.8GHz Core 2 Duo with lots of memory speed.

The E5200 is harder to run so fast, but even at 3GHz it will be faster than any of the X2s and use a lot less energy at load. The AMD X2s do have lower idle power, however.

G31 and P31 are the same chip and G33 and P35 are the same chip. The latter two should have 4 memory slots and support 8GB of memory. The prices for G33/P35 seem to come down, but I don't buy in Canada.

angelkiller · Post by **angelkiller** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:06 pm

Yes, I would drop to a E5200 and get 4GB of RAM. Why? The E7300 offers little performance gains over the E5200. (3MB L2 cache vs 2MB) Yes, it's a 50% difference, but in the overall scheme of things (the E8x00 series has 6MB) the difference is small. The E5200 will still get some crazy overclocks. You could easily get to 4GHz (assuming cooling is adequate) because of the high multiplier.

As for a G31 motherboard, here are some nice options that range in price. Personally, I would get one of the Gigabyte boards. (I can't seem to tell the difference....)

QuietOC wrote:If want something very fast and very easy, get the cheapest Gigabyte G31 motherboard and a E7200 and 4GB of the cheapest DDR2 800. Raise the FSB from 533MHz to 800MHz and lower the memory ratio to 1:1 and enjoy a 3.8GHz Core 2 Duo with lots of memory speed.

I assume you mean from 266MHz to 400MHz. Intel's FSBs are quad pumped. FSB 1066 = 266.5MHz actual speed. But I definately agree that Intel's CPUs are extremely easy to overclock.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:15 pm

angelkiller wrote:I assume you mean from 266MHz to 400MHz. Intel's FSBs are quad pumped. FSB 1066 = 266.5MHz actual speed. But I definately agree that Intel's CPUs are extremely easy to overclock.

Opps, yes, those are the actual clock frequencies. Some motherboards show those quadrupled 1067 to 1600. I think Gigabyte shows the actual numbers in the BIOS.

I have the Foxconn G31MV-K (the relabelled TUL version). The Biostar Tforce or Gigabytes are probably the best.

speedkar9 · Post by **speedkar9** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:41 pm

I'm not into overclocking, and I've ruled out the G31 already. I'm also going to stick with the stock cooler, as $25 spent on a cooler is better spent on a faster CPU at this budget. I just wanted to look at some options in that $90 price bracket that includes a DVI port, and supports at least 8GB of RAM. The above quoted system had x3000 graphics, (which means G33?). I'm still nervous about its HD / 3D capabilities.

As a budget system, I believe it is better to pay a bit more for the motherboard, so come upgrade time, I won't be upgrading the hole system. Its a tactic I've adapted since I started building, and seems to work best for the budget PC's.

That is one reason why I just can't stand when white box shops, and low end OEM's put outdated, crappy mobo's in their builds, and the price looks so attractive. Here is a good example of an E5200 system with 2GB of RAM for $325! :
http://keitcomputer.com/dualcorestarterdetails.html

Thanks

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:01 pm

speedkar9 wrote:The above quoted system had x3000 graphics, (which means G33?). I'm still nervous about its HD / 3D capabilities.

If it has an X in the name then it is not G33/G31 (=GMA 3100). GMA X3000 is G965. All Intel GMAs suck for 3D, but fine for 2D. More info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA

FWIW: the E5200 comes with a really wimpy looking heatsink. Kind of like it was designed for a 20W processor.

Maybe you should just get the cheapest X2 you can find (4850e) and a decent 780G motherboard. Encoding speed isn't everything.