Seasonic Super Tornado vs Antec Phantom Fanless + Case Fan

teedub · Post by **teedub** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:32 pm

Here is my current setup, mostly empty space:

The power supply is a modified Enermax. I removed the rear 80mm fan and attached the manual-adjustable speed control to the inner 90mm fan. I also plugged all the vent holes in the PSU to force all the air movement to go out the rear.

There are two other fans in the case, the one on the Zalman processor heatsink (running fairly slow and quiet) and an undervolted Panaflo to provide a (very) slight breeze across the graphics card heatsink and the RAMBUS ram. Neither of these fans is a noise issue at present.

The rear case fan hole is plugged. The front case fans are removed leaving empty holes. The hard drive (clamped in a Zalman heatpipe thing) sits in the fresh air flow just behind those holes.

So... overall airflow through the entire case is provided entirely by suction of the PSU fan, and all warm air exhausts through the PSU.

This setup provides adequate cooling in my system.

My problem is the PSU fan is still too loud, despite being run at a reduced voltage. I think it has increased in volume since I first did this 6 months ago or so, perhaps the bearings are weairing in the fan and contributing to more noise.

But from the nature of the noise, I suspect most of it is due to turbulence from the fan blades close to the PSU parts, and the air itself moving through the PSU parts.

I thought about messing around with it some more, but I'm not sure I can make any dramatic improvement, and it's a pain to work with having to disassemble the PSU to make changes or to replace the fan.

I did improvise an air deflector/muffler to keep the noise emanating from the rear of the PSU from bouncing off the hard wall behind my computer:

Couldn't be any more getto unless I added some graffiti

but it did make a noticeable difference, removing some of the higher frequency whine making the overall noise a little more pleasant. If I redid this out of heavy plastic and some real foam presumably it would help more, but... I'm wondering if getting rid of my current PSU and throwing some money at the problem would be better.

Which brings me (finally) to my question...

If I were to replace my PSU, which would be a better route:

1. Seasonic Super Tornado with a big 120mm fan, using the PSU to exhaust all case air as I am now.

2. Antec fanless PSU, and add an 80mm case fan to exhaust case air.

SEASONIC 120mm:
Advantages:
- Relatively cheap
- Easy drop-in for my current setup
- Cooling should be as good or better

Disadvantages:
- Not sure how fast variable-speed fan would run in its exhaust-the-case role.
- Integrated fan is not easily tweaked or replaced.
- If too loud, I'm back to creating a (relatively) complex exhaust hood again. The wires from the PSU and other parts get in the way.

ANTEC FANLESS + CASE FAN:
Advantages:
- No power supply fan noise (duh).
- Case fan separately tweakable and replaceable.
- If external fan muffling required, easier to do than over the back of a power supply.
- Could switch from "pull" to "push" fan configuration if desired, etc., all without worrying about PSU fan.

Cons:
- Fairly expensive.
- Unproven fanless technology, unknown lifespan.
- Possible heat issues if no air moving across power supply?

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Antec. Expense is not really my main concern any more as my time investment and frustration level has grown.

I would welcome any and all feedback as to why either idea is good or bad, or whether I should be doing something else.

Specifially I'd be very curious to know:

- First-hand experience with using a Seasonic to remove all case air. Is it still quiet in this role?

- First-hand experience with using an Antec (or other) fanless PSU stuck up there in the corner in a low-airflow situation such as mine. Does the PSU remain stable and relatively cool?

eLekTRiK · Post by **eLekTRiK** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:21 pm

Based on what I've read, going with the Phantom + case exhaust fan could be just a pinch quieter, especially if the Seasonic had to spin up its fan to a higher level due to being the only exhaust. Still, it seems like a Phantom is a bit extreme for silencing compared to the noise that other components in your rig are probably making. It may be that the best course of action for you is to go with a Seasonic and an undervolted case exhaust fan. Remember that one fan at full blast will likely make more noise than two fans running slowly.

I'm currently using a Phantom in my near-silent rig, but I'm using water cooling - so my situation is a bit different from yours. I run a pair of 120mm case fans (one intake, one exhaust) at extremely undervolted settings.

When I first got the Phantom, I tried using positive pressure (both fans blowing in) to force the exhaust through the PSU. This didn't work out so well, as temps inside the case gradually built up. My best cooling has been with my current push-pull configuration. Note that the entire underside of the Phantom is a giant heatsink - so as long as air is moving through the case, there is air cooling the PSU. There also seems to be a very slight air current through the PSU, even though both fans run at the same speed. My impression is that the Phantom can tolerate fairly high PSU temps (it is after all rated for 0-65C operation), although I'm still waiting to finish my mods before stress testing. I might even be able to get away with turning off fans during system idle.

teedub · Post by **teedub** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:18 pm

Thanks for the reply -- actually the other components inside my system are quite quiet, the CPU and video/memory aux fan are low speed. When I stick my finger in the PSU fan life is good. For my ears anyway... not so good for my finger or the temps.

I could do a Seasonic plus a case fan as you mention but if I use a rear exhaust that puts 3 fans in close proximity (CPU, PSU, rear exhaust) which seems counterproductive.

And if I instad did Seasoni plus a front case fan, then I'm pushing all the case air through the PSU again (albeit faster and cooler) which again makes me worry about the PSU fan speeding up.

And in either case... if the PSU fan is loud or becomes loud then my tweaking options are more complicated.

So I guess I'm talking myself towards the Phantom, especially hearing you've had good results.

You mentioned you had two fans pushing and that didn't work well, do you mean that you had all rear openings plugged so the only exhaust was through the PSU?

And in your current push/pull configuration, is the rear fan located just under the PSU as it would be in my setup?

I wasn't thinking about the bottom of the PSU being a heat sink, that's not too great, but at least the heat coming off that would be right next to the rear case fan in my setup, so hopefully it would be removed with a low airflow without heating the rest of the case.

What I'd REALLY like is something like the Thermaltake but with ALL the heat dissipation outside the caes. It makes no sense to me that they went to the trouble of installing heatpipes but then piped some of the heat back into the case. I'm sure something like what I really want will be released 2 weeks after I buy.

vortex222 · Post by **vortex222** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:45 pm

i use a seasonic ST300, and i love it. one thing to remember though, is the temp sensor for the fan inside the case, sits just behind its power plug, in my case, with my cpu heatsink, (slk800) when i had the fan pushing down, it pushed the hot air over the psu sensor and caused the fan to rev up. when i reverced the fan, the heat no longer touched that sensor, and i found the psu to be more then adiquite for the heat of my system. when i added a second HD and more powerfull soundcard, i decided to duct my CPU to the rear casefan to exhuast its heat directly wint a panaflo at 5v. that brought the psu to its minimum speed and it nver goes over ~850 rpm. .... ohh, it did hit about 900 during the really hot summer......

eLekTRiK · Post by **eLekTRiK** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:55 pm

I could do a Seasonic plus a case fan as you mention but if I use a rear exhaust that puts 3 fans in close proximity (CPU, PSU, rear exhaust) which seems counterproductive.

I mention this because others have reported their Seasonics being too loud when they are solely responsible for exhaust. The CPU fan just cools CPU, but doesn't really move much air around the case. So w/o an exhaust fan, the PSU fan really would be doing all the exhaust work.

You mentioned you had two fans pushing and that didn't work well, do you mean that you had all rear openings plugged so the only exhaust was through the PSU?

I have a 120mm intake near the front bezel that blows over the hard disks. The 120mm exhaust is in the usual case exhaust fan location - in back, right below the PSU. Both of these fans were blowing in, and there weren't any other openings to the outside aside from the PSU. Basically the PSU was nice and cool, but it seemed like the positive pressure setup was just pushing pockets of warm air into other parts of the case, instead of creating a smooth flow through the case. Hard disk temps rose (a concern for me because they are already stuffy in silencing enclosures).

I didn't realize there were heat sinks below the PSU which doesn't sound too great, but at least in my setup the heat coming off those would be right next to the rear case fan hole so hopefully it would move on out without much trouble.

Basically the bottom surface of the Phantom is a set of fins. They are built into the PSU and don't intrude into the case. Most fanless PSUs dump heat into your case anyway, and at least the Phanton tries to dump it in a place where an existing fan can easily exhaust the heat. The Phantom has good efficiency, so it won't dump as much heat as some other fanless PSUs. My fans aren't moving much air at all, but my case is running cooler with the Phantom than with my old ThermalTake 420W PSU (which had 2 fans).

vortex222 · Post by **vortex222** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:58 pm

i just loved one review of the phantom where the guy had a thermal take volcano7 or somthing like that with a 5000 rpm fan. and 4 other fans, and said that the PSU made his computer alot quieter. yikes.

teedub · Post by **teedub** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:09 pm

vortex222, maybe he had a gasoline powered fan in his old PSU.

eLekTRiK:

My fans aren't moving much air at all, but my case is running cooler with the Phantom than with my old ThermalTake 420W PSU

Well that certainly sounds promising for my low airflow situation. Fanless it is.

I should ask you too, did you consider the SilverStone ST30NF Fanless as well, and if so why did you go with the Phantom?

I was thinking of the Phantom due to the high efficiency but in re-reading the review it is apparently only a factor at higher loads, which I don't have. I may have higher loads in a new system in the future I suppose... but I'm guessing there will be a heatpiped PSU by then that I'll want.

eLekTRiK · Post by **eLekTRiK** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:49 pm

I should ask you too, did you consider the SilverStone ST30NF Fanless as well, and if so why did you go with the Phantom?

My main reason is that the Phantom has much more amps available between its dual 12V rails. The 17A on the ST30NF is probably enough for either of our current configs but I may upgrade some time in the near future and would hate to have to toss out a $150 PSU.

The Phantom is slightly more efficient, and has compliance with a more recent ATX standard.

It is possible that the Phantom is more temperature-tolerant. The Phantom is rated for 0-65C operation, while the ST30NF has its overheat warning light come on at 55C. The internal construction on the Phantom looked more hardcore about evacuating heat to the casing, based on a subjective evaluation of review pics.

All in all, both look like great products, but the Phantom appeared to have a slight edge in various categories. I've never seen/owned an ST30NF though, so I don't know any more about it than what I've read.

It turns out that the Phantom may produce slightly more buzz/hum than the ST30NF. I found the coil buzz to be annoying in the first day or so but it seems to have faded - I can't hear it unless I stick my ear within a few inches of the case.[/quote]