Suggestions for Silencing the PCP&C 510 Deluxe Modular..

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

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Suggestions for Silencing the PCP&C 510 Deluxe Modular..

Post by Karma Police » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:36 pm

Anyone have a good idea what fan to replace the stock fan with?

The stock fan is an 80mm fan pushing 30-44CFM with a 34-44dB sound level. I can appreciate the PSU's power & efficiency, but the sound is too much.

I am also thinking about cutting a 120mm hole in the bottom panel & mounting a fan there, too.

BTW, the modular is not the plugs in the back of the mesh where the fan draws intake from, but instead just cut wires when they exit the PSU. So the air flow has not been interrupted by the modularity of the PSU.

At this point all I'm trying to do is make it quieter, whether through quieter fans or other means.

Any help is appreciated.

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Post by Tibors » Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:17 pm

Being a bit impatient :?: It is saturday evening. Most people are out drinking.
Image

If you had searched this forum for "fan replacement", you wouldn't have had to wait almost five hours to know the most popular fan to replace PSU fans with is the Panaflo M1A. 8)

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Post by limee » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:56 pm

Karma, there is a possiblity that those fans run at that speed to maintain the efficiency and other power benefits that come along with it. Perhaps a psu designed to run with low airflow might be better for modding? Just a thought, I'm not sure myself of the answers :D

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Re: Silencing the Best: PCP&C 510 Deluxe Modular suggest

Post by Edward Ng » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:00 pm

Karma Police wrote:Silencing the Best...
Any specific reason why the PCP&C PSU is, "the best?"

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the virtue of large diameter fans

Post by tibetan mod king » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:48 pm

As it so happens, I am in the midst of exploring modifying a PC Power and Cooling 510 XE Deluxe. Actually two of them. Because if I am around these power supplies any longer, I will lose my hearing!

I've sent emails to PC Power and Cooling about the excessive noise and they basically blew me off saying "you need lots of air for dual Xeons". Never mind that I am running dual Opterons that put out a fraction of the heat that the newer Xeons do. The thermo-control on the PC Power and Cooling 510 units is fundamentally flawed. It should be barely spinning the fan at 25 degrees Celsius (my case ambient). Instead, it is going nearly full blast. I even tried taking the PSU out of the case and found even at 20 degrees Celsius or less the fan was still going nuts.

The approach I am favoring the most is a simple mod -- remove the stock 80mm fan (one of mine is a Nidec, the other a 3-blade Delta), mount an 80mm to 120mm adapter on the outside of the PSU and run a Panaflo 120mm L1A fan with AOC voltage controller (non PWM) using a Backy to run power outside the case.

The noise at around 8v to 10v should be minimal and the air flow will be superior to the stock fan. One could also experiment with others fans.

So back to the disappointment of PC Power and Cooling. They put a raging little fan inside a power supply that is so jammed full of stuff that the fan can't even cool properly. The design is flawed. They should make the power supply case larger and rethink the cooling system design.

The 120mm fan mod could also be done using a duct running off the power supply instead of a 80mm to 120mm adapter. The idea is to make sure there is ample space for the power cord and power switch.

In the bigger picture, the PSU should not be used as an exhaust fan. That was originally something stupid on the part of Intel which everyone has copied. The PSU should draw cool air into the PSU and exhaust it out of the case. That keeps the PSU operating at peak efficiency. The case should have a dedicated exhaust fan that is not trying to cool hot metal heat sinks... duh!

Maybe with a very high efficiency power supply there won't be much self-generated heat and using the PSU as an exhaust fan will make more sense. For today, it just doesn't seem like it works very well.

I learned the lesson of the PC Power and Cooling... heavy duty design, cranks out a lot of power... but is very loud. The reviews of this PSU have not been very forward about mentioning the noise level. And PC Power and Cooling's marketing literature is misleading, stating that the PSU is designed to work at 50 degrees Celsius (so why is the fan at nearly full speed 25 degrees cooler?).

It is my hope that the 120mm fan will solve my only real issue with the 510 XE Deluxe -- noise. It is by far the loudest component of my system.

When I get all the parts in, I will post some info on what I did. Note... I am first trying a Seasonic 460W Super Silencer. If this works, I am returning my PC Power and Cooling 510 XE Deluxe Noise Blaster PSU and leaving PC Power and Cooling to the next dupe who thinks "heavy duty" is more important than "hearing loss".

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Re: the virtue of large diameter fans

Post by Edward Ng » Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:27 pm

tibetan mod king wrote:...a power supply that is so jammed full of stuff that the fan can't even cool properly. The design is flawed...
The best indeed...

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Post by Karma Police » Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:32 am

Thanks for the help. I'm looking forward to your input, king.

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Post by tibetan mod king » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:28 am

I will have the Seasonic Super Silencer 460W this coming Wednesday. So sometime over the holidays I will post how it worked out.

Someone also mentioned that Seasonic will be coming out with a dual rail version of the above power supply, so I may try it out and if it works return it and upgrade to the dual rail unit which would be a better match for my dual processor system.

The good thing about the external PSU mod is that if there is ever a PSU issue, you simply take out the mod and send the PSU to PC Power and Cooling for repair under their 5 year warranty. With other mods, it is more difficult.

More news soon.

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Post by Sizzle » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:40 am

I have a Nexus fan in my Deluxe 510. Works just fine. Though my PSU does not doing really any system exhausting. I have a blowhole for top exhaust.
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Post by tibetan mod king » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:53 am

The blowhole is really the answer to case cooling and I wish I had one put in when I bought this case a while back. I have a Lian-Li PC-73SL and I have two Nexus 80mm exhaust fans near the top, but they do not do as good a job as a blowhole.

Is there any way to make a blowhole without taking the whole computer apart? For my case, I'd like to utilize a low speed 120mm Nexus fan to exhaust air out the top and then lose the dual 80's in the back... well, move one of them to the 510 XE... and then happily Compute in Peace.

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sizzle...

Post by tibetan mod king » Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:06 am

How long have you had the Nexus in the 510 Deluxe? The PC Power and Cooling QA manager did tell me a reduction in air flow dramatically reduced the life span of the power supply. I don't know if this was scare tactics or if it was a legitimate concern.

My focus on using the 120mm fan for the 510 XE Deluxe has been to reduce noise while maintaining air flow. The stock fan will allegedly do up to 44CFM while the Nexus 80mm does about 20CFM. The Nexus 120mm fan would bump the CFM up to 36 or so. A de-volted Panaflo would give you 45 CFM at low noise level. There are also many other choices. One could even do a simpler mod, 80mm to 92mm and go with a 27 CFM Nexus 92mm which would give you 33% more air flow than the 80mm Nexus still at a low noise level.

Anyhow, it would be great to know how long things have been going well with your 510 Deluxe / Nexus combo.

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Post by Sizzle » Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:30 pm

I have had the Nexus fan in there for a week or so. Before I had a SilenX 14dba fan for months. While it had no air noise, it had a small click to it, had to go. Even though it's rated at pushing more air, I would say the SilenX pushes barely more air then the Nexus.
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Post by limee » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:57 pm

tibetan: Plausible...the psu does use a lot of beefy parts. I was considering this psu+mod for a new system as well, but became wary when I noticed their "silent" psu's were not able to measure as well as their standard ones. I'm sure if they could make it silent and maintain the specs they would. Just my last 2 cents tho :D

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Post by tibetan mod king » Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:52 pm

We don't know what profit margins PC Power and Cooling has on their various models. It may be that the "Silencer" models use cheaper parts and have a higher profit margin. Or it may be some "genius" in marketing trying to maintain product line differentiation -- at the expense of sales.

I've done some informal air flow studies of the 510 Deluxe and found that inside the power supply, the air flow is very limited. The poor air flow is what requires the over-powerful fan. And even then the fan does a sub-par job of cooling the relatively inefficient (70%) 510 Deluxe.

If the 510 Deluxe were re-designed and used a larger PSU case, the cooling issue would be much simpler. Also if the PSU were reworked for greater efficiency, it would help greatly. However, just rearranging the parts in a larger case (cheap) would be easy for PC Power and Cooling and not measurably increase the cost. Extra sheet metal and wire is not expensive. Then a more intelligent cooling system could be implemented.

A mod that people with larger cases could do... add a second story to the PSU and run a 120mm exhaust fan in the second story. Or even a 92mm Nexus. It may be 27CFM of real air flow vs. "44CFM" of poor air flow is better. One would have to add some temperature probes to make the quality decision here.

In my initial experiments, I have found that the high speed Panalo 80mm is actually an improvment vs. the Nidec, likely due to the RPMs being about 3000 vs. 3400. I am going to try the medium speed Panaflo as well as my 120mm mod. And dig out the Digidoc to monitor the temps so I can make a report of what worked/didn't.

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Post by tibetan mod king » Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:56 pm

One more thing. Many reviews of the PC Power and Cooling 510 Deluxe mention this PSU as having a 20mm deep Nidec fan. This is not true. The fan used in recent models is 25mm deep -- D08T-12PU. My other 510 Deluxe uses a 80mm 3-blade Delta. I have not gotten the model number off that fan yet.

The issue with using a 25mm deep fan is that it sits right up against the internal components. As I have said before, it is a flaw in the design. It may be that using a 80mmx15mm fan such as the Petite Ace may be a better choice than a 80mmx25mm Nexus. The 10mm of extra depth may have a substantial effect on air flow patterns within the cramped PSU case.

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510 panaflo high speed mod + seasonic initial impressions

Post by tibetan mod king » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:35 pm

So I replaced the Nidec 80mm fan with a 80mm Panaflo, high speed model. The Panaflo cools better than the Nidec, dropping the temps by about 5 degrees. And makes slightly less noise. I also removed the wire grill on the back. The 510 Deluxe works just fine with its internal fan disconnected although I may rewire the connector for the final fan I decide to put in.

Also, the Seasonic arrived today (thank you, New Egg, 3 days ahead of FedEx's estimate). Although the Seasonic is advertised as "EPS12V":

"SEPT 2004: The latest revisions of the 400W and 460W models are now All-in-One: PCI Express ready, with both ATX12V v2.0 and EPS12V compatibility. "

http://www.seasonicusa.com/products.php?lineId=4

... it is indeed not. It doesn't meet the specs:

http://www.ssiforum.org/Power%20Supplie ... %202_1.pdf

In fact, one finds PC Power and Cooling distorting the EPS12V specs as well. In the latest spec, the case temp is rated at 45 degrees Celsius, not 50 degrees as PC Power puts in their marketing literature.

I may or may not try out the Seasonic. It does not appear to support all the power rails (+12V2 at least) under the "common plane system" (see page 12, essentially 'common plane' means both processors are powered from a single 12V rail, +12V1) and because there is not more than one 12V rail, the Super Silencer appears that it is *not* EPS12V. Also the Seasonic wiriing seems to be thinner than what you get with the 510 Deluxe. That really got me... saving micro-pennies on smaller wires!

Seasonic, does, correctly, not have a -5V wire. This is correct as per the EPS12V 2.1 spec where this -5V connector is 'reserved' for ATX.

Most importantly, the Seasonic 460W is rated at 25A on the +12V (27A peak). According to the EPS12V 2.1 specification (page 17), for a 450W common plane system (both processors powered from one +12V rail), there should be a total of 33A maximum continuous current available (the spec provides a foonote for maximal continuous current limiting the total to 30A instead of 30A), 18A on +12V1 and 15A on +12V2. Peak current is 22A and 18A respectively, for a peak of 40A except there is a footnote limiting the combined +12V peak current to 36A. The PC Power 510 Deluxe is rated for 34A continuous and 38A peak, so within the EPS12V specification.

In short, the Super Silencer 460W is 5A below the continuous power requirement for EPS12V and 9A below the peak current requirement. It is not EPS12V. And as far as I can tell, there is only one (1) 12V rail for the Super Silencer 460. Thus even under the "common plane" part of the EPS12V 2.1 standard, the Super Silencer 460 does not quality as the specification requires +12V1 (processors) and +12V2.

Note that the PC Power 510 is rated at 510 watts because it does not meet the EPS12V specification for a 550W power supply (35A continuous, 40A peak), although the 510 does come quite close.

So far, I haven't seen any review of the Super Silencer 460 that mentions Seasonic's false claims to EPS12V compatibility.

Outside of specifications, I find the Seasonic Super Silencer 460 gives the impression of "above average, but not great" parts quality. It is not up to the high standard of the 510 Deluxe. However, the internals look better spaced and the fan design appears more thoughtful than the Deluxe 510.

Given the much lower price point, it looks like Seasonic is doing a very good job on what matters -- intelligent layout, low noise fan, "entry level" cable management, etc.

It would be good to see a "Super Silencer 460W Deluxe" that has upgraded components and full sleeving.

Over the holidays I will test the "silencer" claims of this PSU and also measure the temps inside the PSU vs. the 510 Deluxe.

Having already done some preliminary measurements of the 510 Deluxe, I know it runs very warm. For a case that is 20.7 degrees Celsius ambient, the internal temp of the 510 Deluxe ranges up to 38.7 degrees Celsius. Based on these measurements, I would say the PC Power and Cooling QA Manager is telling the truth about the air flow requirements of the 510 Deluxe PSU.

Thus the high-speed 80mm Panaflo mod (39.6 CFM @ 2950 RPM, 32.0 dBA) that does not compromise air flow is a valid "slightly less noise" change from the stock Delta or Nidec fans.

Those people using low flow fans may want to check the internal temps of the PSU components to make sure they are running within PC Power's specifications for "full lifetime" of the PSU. Perhaps it is not the reduced lifetime of the PSU that matters, but what might happen in a failure condition that worries me.

Anyhow, more news soon.

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Post by Karma Police » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:19 am

Without a doubt, tibetan mod king, you are the best thing to happen to these forums. :lol:

Best. post. ever. :shock:

Is there any fan you are aware of that could make the 510 quieter?

Or what other mods can quiet it further without sacrificing efficiency?

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Post by Karma Police » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:23 am

Tibors wrote:If you hadsearched this forum for "fan replacement", you wouldn't have had to wait almost five hours to know the most popular fan to replace PSU fans with is the Panaflo M1A. 8)

Welcome to SPCR
The Panaflo is a 120mm fan. How are you supposed to fit that in a 80mm housing?

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Post by tibetan mod king » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:39 am

To maintain the air flow of the fan (and the correspondent thermal flux), one must maintain a certain level of airflow to the 510 Deluxe.

There are several approaches to this matter. Some of them, such as building a new PSU case and cooling system, are beyond my desire to achieve.

However, one of them, adding a 120mm fan to the exterior of the PSU case, seems like it offers a good return on investment -- maintains safe level of air flow, easy mod, reduced noise.

In adding the high-speed 80mm Panaflo to the formerly Nidec-equipped 510 Deluxe, I learned that adding the fan to the outside may take longer than usual fan screws or an alternative fan mounting approach. This is because the holes for the fan are recessed because of the space the fan grill normally takes.

So provided I can ask around and find a good approach to this issue, we're in business with the 120mm fan mod.

Basically we have (@@ = 80mm fan, F = front, R = rear):

F R
+--------------+
| #$$#*(#*$ @
| $&*%&*$& @
+--------------+

We're going to do something like this:

+--------------+
| #$$#*(#*$ --------@ 120mm fan
| $&*%&*$& --------@
+--------------+

The 'duct' may be an actually duct, it may be a Thermaltake ducting mod, etc. The goal is to utilize an off the shelf part.

The 120mm fan fits onto the 80mm 'duct' by using an 80mm to 120mm fan adapter -- another off the shelf part.

And then we use a de-volted Panaflo (45CFM+) or a Nexus (36CFM) or another fan that will give us 40-50CFM at a low noise level.

Note by moving the fan outside of the PSU and away from all the internal components that are crammed in there, we have already improved the cooling.

Further note... we could make the 'duct' even longer and create a fan box which would quietly pull air from the PSU and then exhaust it using a baffled outflow system. This would add some handiwork to the mod, but it would make the exhaust system very very very quiet. And we could run the 'duct' through a plastic pipe and then seal it with that self-expanding foam. That would make the whole 'duct' very quiet.

Anyhow, for our first step in the mod, it will be just getting the 'duct' or 'ducting mod' attached to the rear of the PSU. After that, it'll be easy :-)

Thanks for the appreciation, by the way. I hope we can all collaborate and pool our best ideas and make our computers the way they should have already been designed... ;-)

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Re: the virtue of large diameter fans

Post by jamesavery22 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:30 am

tibetan mod king...

Dont get me wrong, the 510xe is too loud for my taste also, but you dont really know what you are talking about.

#1 try running the stock fan at 12v and you will realize the controller is working fine in the psu...
#2 if you dont give those rectifiers an mosfets good cooling it will definitely be more likely to have a failure...
#3 PC power & cooling isnt some gigantic company. They aren't the large marketing company like Antec. The majority of their sales are OEM. With that said your whole "simple" idea of reinventing an ATX PSU case is pretty far off the map. They probably buy the actual metal housing from another company, along with all the rest of the components. Getting a new contract for a new design isnt something they can do at their leisure, nor is it something with minimal overhead.

PC power and cooling's PSUs are great designs in terms of electical design, hence the tight rails. They are made to put in workstations and servers. The people who answer the emails and support calls at PC power and cooling are actual engineers. They arent some highschool grads paid to answer phones. Ive asked them some questions in the past and one of them actually gave me schematics of the fan controller and how to disable it. They are great people over there and really know what they are doing. If I was one of them and I got your emails complaining about how crappy the design was and how you were going def from the fan I wouldn't have blown you off, I would have sent you some droppings from one of the neighborhood cats.

While you might not mean to bash it, although its hard to see how you arent from some of your comments, and your effort is rightly placed, just think twice before you start saying some high end product thats been selling for years isnt designed well. Even if you also are an electical engineer who can come up with an as good or even better designed PSU you show others their deserved respect.

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re: objective facts vs. "you don't know what you're ...

Post by tibetan mod king » Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:04 pm

Hello James,

First of all, I don't think you read the entire thread as some of what you are mentioning has already been discussed.

Over the past week and beyond, I've done extensive experiments with two 510 XE Deluxe power supplies. While this may not be indicative of all their 510 units, it does not in any way invalidate what I have learned about these two power supplies. That other users have similar experiences with the power supplies leads me to believe that we are looking at objective data regarding heat, noise, enclosure size, etc.

When it comes to the fan controller in the PSU, there is a very small temperature gap between "initial speed" and "full speed". I have run the Nidec fan at a full 12V and this is what the 510 XE Deluxe does most of the time. Now it may be a defective fan controller. And if it is a defective fan controller, why did it fail? Most likely because the current cooling design doesn't work well... and not all the components inside the PSU case receive good airflow. As far as some reviews of the 510 models even state, the Nidec fan used to be 20mm thick vs. 25mm in the model I have. The 25mm model is jammed right up against the components it is supposed to cool and these components are not designed for effective "pull through" cooling.

Also for the fan controller, the ambients on my other 510 machine (for which the PSU has a 3-blade Delta fan) are low. All the temps are low except for the PSU internals. Which I stated in a recent message. Because the fan controller must cool a hot running PSU that was not designed for good air flow, it simply must run the fan faster. This is physics -- this is reality.

After I did my temp readings and found the amazing temperature deltas between ambient and PSU temp, I did state that the PC Power and Cooling 510 likely needs a lot of air flow to keep it cool. However, trying to cool the cramped little box they put the PSU into is a tough task.

PC Power and Cooling used to have Zippy build their power supplies. I am not sure if this is still the case. If it is, I know Zippy has many designs -- already built -- that use larger power supply enclosures. So the cost of moving to a larger enclosure would not be large. Even if it is not Zippy, there are many OEMs in China that already make large PSU cases as other vendors are using them and shipping power supplies.

As I paid a lot of money for two 510 power supplies that were advertised to work in "workstations" and advertised as having fan controllers that would keep noise to a minimum, I feel that the 510 was misrepresented. The design of the power supply does not support operation at a reasonable noise level. In that sense, it is a bad design.

Also when you consider the power supply is a 70% efficiency power supply, it is putting out a lot more heat than better designs that are more efficient. Sticking a hot PSU into a small enclosure is another element of bad design as it will promote power supply failure and component failure (like the fan controller).

Like PC Power and Cooling, you may be satisified with the status quo and feel fine ignoring the global trend toward quiet computing. Studies have shown that a quiet "workstation" results in higher productivity. As the cost of a typical worker using a "workstation" far exceeds that of a power supply, it makes a lot of economic sense to make quiet components for "workstations".

Although I have rambled a bit, the core issues remain the same:

1. The 510 models run hot.
2. The 510 models are cramped into tiny enclosures.
3. The 510 models use fans that are known noise demons.
4. The 510 models are low efficiency designs for today.

The 510 can be cooled with greater airflow and less noise. The end user can do this in many ways, including my proposed 120mm fan mod. PC Power should solve this problem themselves as it would cost FAR less than what the end user pays, even not counting the end user's time.

Other PSU makers have adopted larger PSU enclosures to fit all the quality components and provided space for air to flow. This is why I mention the "larger PSU case". All these power supplies are far cheaper than PC Power and Cooling -- as I have said, it is not a cost issue, but a design issue.

Anyhow, if you have any thoughtful ideas on how people who want a quieter 510 can cool their PSU and maintain air flow, I'd be interested in hearing them. It would seem that you are on this forum as you are interested in quiet computing!

Kindly,
TMK

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regarding the seasonic super silencer 460w

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:04 am

I'm writing this with the system powered by the Seasonic Super Silencer 460... and I cannot adequately put into words how quiet this PSU is compared to the PC Power and Cooling 510 series. It is like an invisible weight being lifted off of my being.

The vast upside of this PSU is the silence. It is also oriented properly to fit in a Lian-Li PC-73SL case. The PC Power 510 is not. The PSU runs easily 10-15 degrees cooler than the PC Power 510, dependent on measurement spot.

Now for the downside. The 3.3v reading is not so good:

System volt 3.3v = 3.216v
System volt 5v = 5.044v
System volt 12v = 12.096v

All readings using Tyan's system monitor utility inside of Windows. The system is not being stressed (other than running Windows, but that is a spiritual stress and difficult to measure).

I also measured the voltage while running a 3D app so my Geforce 5700 Ultra would kick in. For a moment on the 3.3v line, the voltage dropped from 3.216v to an even 3.2v. The 5v and 12v lines were rock solid and didn't budge.

Besides the dramatic reduction in overall noise, the other major effect of the Super Silencer 460 is that I can hear all the other things making noise in my computer for the first time. So I realize I have work to do when it comes to the heat sink fans (currently Papst 80mm 26.5 CFM on top of the stock heatsinks using 70mm to 80mm fan adapters)... these will likely change to Nexus 92mm fans on top of Thermalright XP-90's, though I may move to water cooling to get quiet cooling of the 5700 Ultra as well as the processors.

In sum, initial impressions of the Super Silencer 460 are quite positive. While the power supply does not have dual 12v rails and should not be claiming EPS12V compatbility due to not meeting the current delivery specifications of EPS12V 2.1, it does reduce the noise tremendously vs. the PC Power 510. If the 3.3v line had been more solid, it would get an 8 out of 10 rating (-2 for not having dual rails/up to spec current). Instead, it gets an 7.5 (-0.5 point for sub-par 3.3v).

Likely the upcoming version of the Super Silencer with dual rails will be "the one" for my system. I hope they tune up the 3.3v regulation as well and will send them a note with the results of my experience and see what they have to say. I hope they are more open to suggestions than the PC Power and Cooling people.

For today, the Super Silencer 460 is up to task in running many powerful systems, even my dual Opteron + dual 15K SCSI + Geforce 5700 Ultra system. Congratulations to Seasonic on reducing the noise and reducing the heat generation compared to outdated designs like the PC Power 510.

tibetan mod king
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:18 pm

further examination of the pc power 510

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:23 am

So I took a look at the second PC Power 510 unit of mine -- the one with the Delta fan. This *noise monster* is even worse than the Nidec-powered PC Power 510.

The Delta model for the fan is EFB0812EH. This is the high speed version of Delta's lower noise 80mm fan line -- the fans with 3 blades. The specs on the model inside the PC Power 510:

EFB0812EH:
5000rpm
52cfm
42.5dBA

Obviously something is *very wrong* if PC Power needs 52 CFM to cool their PC Power 510. I believe the heat sink area of the PSU is far too small and thus PC Power is in the situation of having to move massive amounts of air mass past the heatsinks to get the temps down. Even with the 52 CFM Delta fan, this PSU is 10-15 degrees warmer than the Seasonic Super Silencer 460.

At this point in time, having learned what insane things PC Power is doing to cool their PC Power 510 model, it is clear that the PC Power cannot be recommended for any system other than a server that is in an air conditioned room and has massive numbers of fans moving massive amounts of cool air through the machine. It is clear that only with a very cold ambient temperature does the PC Power 510 have any chance to be reliable.

Using a PC Power510 in a normal desktop/workstation system will increase your case temps and reduce the life span of your system components dramatically. Recall that a 10 degree increase in temperature will reduce your component life by 50%. With PC Power moving from a 44 CFM Nidec to a 52 CFM Delta and increasing the noise level, there may be reliability issues with the PC Power 510. As normal desktop/workstations exhaust case air through the PSU, it is imperative that when using the PC Power 510 that you supplement the exhaust capabilities of the case so that the PSU does not pull hot air into itself.

In my system, I have 40 CFM of exhaust airflow right under the PSU and this was not sufficient to lower the temps of the PC Power 510. It was only when I moved to 80 CFM of exhaust flow that the PSU temperature was reduced enough for the fan controller to lower the fan speed from "insane" to "disturbed".

In sum, having had extremely negative experiences with the PC Power 510, I cannot recommend it. The reviews of the past models of this PSU do not represent what is going on with the latest Delta-powered units and should all be commented/pulled. PC Power's ratings of this PSU as working in a case with a 50 degrees Celsius ambient appear to be total fabrication. This PSU is a noise demon in a case with 20-25 degrees Celsius ambient. Its lifespan in a case with 50 degrees Celsius ambient may be 4 times lower than a 20 degrees cooler case. Additionally, this PSU should not be advertised as appropriate for workstations/desktops without some sort of noise warning. In short... buyer beware.

tibetan mod king
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:18 pm

alternatives to pc power 510

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:45 am

As the Seasonic 460 does not support dual rails nor the current requirements for EPS12V 2.1, I am both waiting for Seasonic's new models and looking for alternatives from other manufacturers.

I have found one alternative that looks promising, the Enhance ENS-0246B.
http://www.enhanceusa.com/acdc_eps12v.htm

This model uses dual fans to move air through the PSU (as per AMD's recommendations) and the fans look from the picture to be easily modifiable if they are too noisy.

Enhance does not rate the noise nor the efficiency of this PSU, so I will have to make some inquiries next week. The non-EPS12V version of this PSU seems to have good reviews, so it could be the EPS12V model is just as good, perhaps even better due to the dual 12v rails.

tibetan mod king
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:18 pm

latest thoughts on my 80mm to 120mm fan mod

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:59 am

Based on learning that the latest PC Power 510 models are moving 52 CFM of air and using a 5000rpm 80mm fan, I went back to review the design assumptions of my 120mm fan mod. It is clear that the 120mm Nexus (36 CFM) will not deliver adequate air flow to cool the PC Power 510.

Reviewing the 120mm fans that I know about, the Enermax adjustable speed 120mm fan seems to be a good match for the PC Power 510. On the low end of the speed adjustment, the Enermax delivers nominally 63 CFM at 25db-A. This amount of cooling is likely necessary to ensure a long lifetime for the PC Power 510. As a stock low speed Panaflo 120mm fan moves 69 CFM but produces 30dB-A for this level of air flow, one may also be able to devolt the Panaflo to 10V, moving a bit more than 52 CFM and reducing noise below 30dB-A.

From my input from PC Power and most importantly, from my temperature readings, I do not believe any 80mm fan swap mod that substantially reduces the air flow through the PC Power 510 is wise. Maybe the 40CFM Panaflo high-speed model I have in the server is okay because there are also four (4) 65 CFM 92mm fans and four (4) 95CFM 92mm fans fans cooling the server case (and soon all the 92mm fans will be upgraded to 95CFM). The ambients in the server case are very low and the PSU is bottom-mounted, further reducing ambients. In a desktop/workstation, unless the ambient is low, I would not reduce air flow through the PC Power 510 to anything less than what the newest PC Power 510 models deliver -- 52 CFM at 12v -- unless a potentially major reliability hit is okay.

tibetan mod king
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:18 pm

more testing of the pc power 510

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:18 am

Just out of curiosity, I went back to check the voltages on the PC Power 510 and found the following:

system 3.3v = 3.264v to 3.28v
system 5v = 5.096v to 5.122v
system 12v = 12.159v

The undervoltage on the 3.3v line of the PC Power 510 is smaller than the Super Silencer 460. However, the noise increase to get a small improvement in the 3.3v line is gigantic. I am listening to the insanely loud PC Power 510 and counting down the minutes until Monday when I will order the Enhance 460w EPS12V and the parts for the 120mm fan mod.

After I get the 120mm fan mod parts, I will change the previously 5000rpm 42.5 dB-A 52 CFM 80mm Delta-powered PC Power 510 to the 1800rpm 24.6 dB-A 63 CFM 120mm Enermax. Late next week I will post the results of the 120mm fan mod, including how 63 CFM of 120mm air flow changes the temps of the PC Power 510 vs. the 52 CFM delivered by the 80mm Delta.

Of note -- during the voltage testing of the 80mm Panaflo equipped PC Power 510, I found that the "turbine-style" air flow pattern of the Panaflo delivers dramatically better cooling than either the 80mm Nidec or the 80mm Delta fan. So for looking only at longevity of the PC Power 510, I would suggest the Panaflo high-speed 80mm fan as a good upgrade that doesn't increase the noise profile but does add extra cooling capability.

tibetan mod king
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:18 pm

alternative mod for the pc power 510

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:49 am

It seems the PC Power 510 greatly benefits from having cool air dumped right on the internal heatsink. I am now running a mod that uses a 26 CFM 80mm Papst fan to blow air into the PC Power 510. The fan is externally mounted, so it also picks up major flow improvements from not being jammed up against the internal components of the PSU.

Temperature readings are *lower* than 40CFM of "pull through" air with the 40 CFM fan jammed up against the components. This is evidence that the PC Power 510 would greatly benefit from a lengthened case so that cooling fans could be positioned far enough away from components for maximal cooling efficiency.

Note -- I am taking these readings with my case door off. To make this mod work with an enclosed case, some sort of blowhole fan would be needed to exhaust the warm air coming in from the PSU. Also it is very critical to use rubber mounting grommets with the external fan mod. Even better would be a full rubber surround that could easily be cut out of a piece of rubber. Perhaps even a silicone fan dampener may work well.

Cost-wise, if your case does not already come with a blowhole, then the 120mm exhaust fan option will likely be cheaper. However, if you already have a blowhole or are planning on adding one, the 80mm blow-in fan option will be cheaper and perhaps even more effective.

It will be interesting next week to compare the 80mm blow-in modification vs. the 120mm exhaust fan modification. And if there is time, we will also look at using a 120mm to blow cool air onto the PSU! :-)

tibetan mod king
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:18 pm

alternative mod for pc power 510 (more)

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:11 am

It turns out the voltages with the 80mm blow-in mod are *slightly* better than either the 40CFM turbine-pattern "pull through" Panaflo fan or the 52 CFM Delta-screamer "pull through" fan.

system 3.3v = 3.28 to 3.312
system 5v and 12v are the same.

Everything on the 3.3v line is actually just a little bit better with the 80mm blow-in mod. This includes the 3.3v for stand-by as well as the battery voltage.

I may also experiment with doing a 92mm blow-in mod as well as the 120mm. It may also be that using the 120mm Nexus in a blow-in fashion would be a good choice.

Overall system noise of the 80mm Papst blow-in PC Power 510 and the Super Silencer 460 is comparable. Without a sound meter, I cannot tell the difference.

Another option on the 80mm blow-in mod would be to use a devolted Panaflo 80mm M1 fan and an air duct that would pull cool air from the ground and pump it into the PSU. This may achieve even better cooling than what I am doing now... dependent on flow loss due to the ducting, of course.

Rusty075
SPCR Reviewer
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Post by Rusty075 » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:04 am

TMK, 7 consecutive self-replies is a bit, um, excessive. Try to consolidate your thoughts into a single post, it makes the thread esier to read. (you can always edit your post to add new information)

The 3.3v results are perfectly within spec, especially considering the way you're attempting to measure them. You really, really cannot use a mobo utility to measure PSU lines with any sort of accuracy. Meaningfull results would require an oscilloscope, or at least a voltmeter.

You are still misinterepreting the EPS12V spec, even after having your error pointed out to you earlier. (or was that in another thread?) Reread the spec, and reread what Seasonic tech. spec's actually claim.
[size=75][b]Senior Contributing Writer, SPCR[/b][/size]

tibetan mod king
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:18 pm

re: misreading the eps12v spec?

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:19 am

Hello Rusty,

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't know how to edit my own post. Next time, I will ramble on in one place... ;-)

I cannot see how I am misreading the EPS12V specification. As I referenced specific page numbers, perhaps you could quickly check and see what my errors are -- I would much appreciate it.

The places where I don't believe the Seasonic 460W meets the EPS12V spec for a 450W common plane power supply --

1. Lack of more than one 12V rail.
2. Cannot deliver continuous/peak 12V current levels as per spec.

Next week I may dig out the voltmeter and get better measurements. I recently moved and most everything is still in boxes :shock:... Currently I am running the PC Power 510 with 80mm blow-in fan and it is working well. When the room ambient temp warms up a bit, it will be worth a second look. From a detailed scan with the infrared thermometer, I can see the hotspots and am devising even more efficient cooling for this PSU... :twisted:

Cheers,
TMK

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