Suggestions for Silencing the PCP&C 510 Deluxe Modular..

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

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Edward Ng
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Post by Edward Ng » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:22 am

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tibetan mod king
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i believe the quoted part of the thread proves my point?

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:47 am

(1) As per the quoted text from the other thread, the EPS12V specification requires 2 or more 12V rails.

(2) According to the EPS12V specification, there are 12V current requirements that the Seasonic Silencer 460W does not meet:

Image

As per the Seasonic USA website:

Image

Unless I am missing something very basic, the Seasonic Super Silencer 460W has only one 12V rail and certainly does not meet the 12V current delivery specifications.

Rusty075
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Re: re: misreading the eps12v spec?

Post by Rusty075 » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:55 am

tibetan mod king wrote:1. Lack of more than one 12V rail.
Just because they don't list them in their brochures doesn't mean they don't exist. To even claim it has EPS12V compatibility it would likely have the multiple lines. That would be too obvious a bluff for any reputable PSU maker to even try to claim. (Seasonic seems to have a pretty good corporate ethic behind it)

tibetan mod king wrote:2. Cannot deliver continuous/peak 12V current levels as per spec.
That's the re-reading part I was specifically thinking of.
EPS12V 2.1 Spec wrote: (page 17) 6.4 Output Power/Currents

STATUS: recommended

The following tables define power and current ratings for four recommended power levels selected to cover different types of systems and configurations.


(page 6. Definitions)

Recommended: The status given to items within this design guide which are not required to meet SSI guidelines.....
The second thing I suggested re-reading was the Seasonic claims, which is for, "EPS12V compatibility" Not complete and total adoption of all recommended or optional guidelines.

Seasonic is using the ATX spec definitions as their basis for labeling the PSU as a 460w, not the EPS12V definitions. Which is fine, since the ATX is clearly the dominant target for their product. If they were using the EPS12V, then yes, the PSU would not be able to be accurately called a 460 watt.

Either way, I think you've let yourself get a bit too hung up on the spec compliance issue. In reality, your dual-opt system probably won't ever draw more than 300watts DC, from any combination of lines. Even a worst-case scenario of all that 300 coming from the 12v, that's only 25A.

A very useful little tool for you would be to pick up one of the Kill-a-watt meters, or Seasonic's own Power Angel. Those are great for demystifying some of the "how many watts do I need?" issues.
[size=75][b]Senior Contributing Writer, SPCR[/b][/size]

tibetan mod king
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on the same page, yet... ;-)

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:14 am

Objectively, I would think that Seasonic would publish the current ratings for each of the 12V lines if they had more than one, just like pretty much every other PSU maker.

For example, a 460W Enhance PSU that is EPS12V (vs. just having a 24-pin main connector and an 8-pin aux connector like the Seasonic):

Image

You can easily tell they are building to the EPS12V spec from their brochure:
http://www.enhanceusa.com/documents/ENS-0246B.PDF

Moreover on the Seasonic, I believe they are coming out with a dual rail version of the Super Silencer next month or January. If this is true, it would certainly imply the current version is not dual rail.

Lastly, I'm in complete agreement as per power usage. I just recently ordered a Seasonic Power Angel and am looking forward to checking it out on the Seasonic and on the PC Power 510.

BTW, for my system, I've got the dual Opteron 240's, 2GB PC2700ECC, two 36GB 15K Fujitsu SCSI drives, DVD, DVDRW, Geforce 5700 Ultra, LSI Logic PCI-X dual channel U320 host adapter, and Adaptec 64-bit Firewire800/400 card, and 6 80mm Nexus fans. Well, and one 80mm Papst fan pushing air through the PSU... and the Tyan Thunder K8W main board. I haven't done the calculations on maximum power usage for this system as it is. The PC Power 510 I bought was for the system it will eventually be -- dual dual-core Opteron 250 equivalents, 4GB+ RAM, 4 U320 15K SCSI drives, likely adding two of the new 147GB 15K models.

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Post by Rusty075 » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:36 am

Opening up the Seasonic should provide some pretty simple evidence one way or the other...just trace the respective 12v lines back to the PCB, and go from there.

Some shoe-string numbers on your system:

Opt 240's: (2)@ ~85w
5700 Ultra: 46w
SCSI drives: (2)@ ~15w
Assorted other bits: ~25-50w

Total: ~275-300 watts. (And that's if you could get both CPU's to 100%, while maxing out the GPU, while having full activity on the SCSI drives....something you will never, ever do in real life.)

Once you move on to the dual-250, 4 SCSI drive system, the noise of the PSU will be lost below all those screaming disks. :wink:
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tibetan mod king
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the power and the silence

Post by tibetan mod king » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:09 am

I agree that my current system doesn't require 460 watts of continuous power (certainly not 510W). However, it may require more current than the Seasonic 460 can deliver. One point of EPS12V is that it provides for the peak current draw from two brawny processors. This is why the peak current for a 450W EPS12V is up there at 36 amps. As the current model Seasonic 460 delivers 25A 12V continuous and 27A peak, it is indeed far below the peak rating for a true 450W EPS12V power supply.

Also, backtracking a second on watts, it is important to look at what kind of watts we are talking about -- 3V, 5V, 12V processors, 12V drives, 12V motherboard, etc.

You can take a gander at AMD's power usage numbers, including current draw, here:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content ... /30417.pdf

Do you know of a good way to measure maximum DC current draw in a running system? In some ways, this is more important a measurement than wattage as wattage is easily discovered.

Also, when it comes to interpreting the specifications, I would rather not get caught up in 'recommended' and what it exactly means (same goes for all the other words). There are no other numbers in the specification other than what I quoted and those numbers are what I am talking about. You and I both know that traditionally in the PC world, what is "recommended" usually means "what is required for satisfactory usage". So I am going to go with "recommended" and not try and figure out on my own what is really really the minimal requirement... and risk damaging my system. I don't want to make my computer silent by breaking it ;-)

For my system, I am just now hearing the hard drives, heatsink fans, case fans, etc. For a long time, the noise from these components was drowned out by the noise of the PC Power 510. I realize I have a long way to go to get the entire thing quiet, but I am willing to learn and experiment with different approaches. I don't think much effort whatsoever has been put into quiet computing by the majority of the industry. And that to me is disappointing. So I am here to share my experiences and learn from others on how to save my hearing and my sanity... what's left of it anyway ...

So for the funny side of all my babblings... I was talking with my Dad regarding this quest to quiet the computer and he said in the old days, they simply built a giant cabinet for the computer that used a very large diameter fan spinning a super low RPM. And this did the trick for computers that put out a lot more heat than anything today. As I look at all the little tiny things I am trying to make quiet... the big cabinet is beginning to appeal to me more than ever... :-)

tibetan mod king
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results of using seasonic power angel

Post by tibetan mod king » Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:28 pm

So I have found that I really don't need 510 cubic inches to drive to the grocery store. Or even to drive to Grandma's house.

According to the Seasonic Power Angel, my dual Opteron setup uses a maximum of 239 watts. At idle, it runs around 200 watts. 3D kicks it up 10-20W or so and the 15K U320 drives another 10-15W. Very rarely does the meter read above 230W. Thus it appears I can give the 'ol heave-ho to the PC Power 510. Even the no-fan Antec Phantom 350W with its dual 12v rails is plenty to power my machine.

The Seasonic Super Silencer 460 I have been experimenting with is likely "plenty", even given its lack of dual 12V rails and inability to meet EPS12V specifications on current delivery. I will test it out full time in a minute.

Well, it turns out the Super Silencer 460 is *definitely not* enough to power the system. The test I did before -- not plugging in the DVD drives or the floppy -- was not a good move on my part. This is because the SS460 has some sort of limitation that prevents the Nvidia Geforce 5700 Ultra from getting enough juice with everything plugged in. I had to disconnect my two DVD burners to get the system to power up properly. So the Seasonic goes back to the manufacturer. Maybe I will look at this PSU when Seasonic ups the current capabilities and upgrades it to dual rails. AND the fan is spastic, even for the latest revision of this PSU. One does need to swap it out for a Panaflo as has been suggested. Maybe even get rid of the thermo-control and just run a low noise fan at constant speed. The up/down noise of the whiny stock fan under thermo-control gets to be annoying quite quickly!

The upside of the Super Silencer 460 is that even when not using the DVD burners (at idle), the system is running around 165 watts. For a system that is on 24 hours a day, 35 watts will make a noticeable difference in your utility bill.

My verdict on the Super Silencer 460 is an easy "do not buy this PSU". Perhaps if your power needs are minimal, it will suffice. For for a system that draws 240 watts maximum, the Super Silencer 460 let me down. And the fan control is not fixed even in this latest revision of the PSU. The final rating is a 5 out of 10 -- quiet mediocrity.

Finally, my gratitude to Seasonic and the folks here who suggested measuring the power consumption of my system. I did learn what power usage savings one can get in the real world from a higher effiency PSU.

P.S. I have the PC Power 510 using a push-pull dual 80mm fan system. It is virtually silent compared to the Nvidia Geforce 5700 Ultra and CPU fans. So for noise, I've got the Arctic Cooling NV2 on the way and will either go with watercooling or XP-90's on the processors.

jamesavery22
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Post by jamesavery22 » Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:58 am

Completely forgot about this thread. I just replaced the fan in my pc p&c 510XE. Replaced the one loud 80mm with 2 AFB0812M's. Got 6 for 24$. I put the second one against the grill where the cables come out. Put the fans in parrallel and just put them in parrallel and plugged them where the original 80mm was plugged into so they are still on the fan controller. They are undervoted quite a bit, it never goes to full blast and its mmmmuch quieter than the original 80mm.

Ender17
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Post by Ender17 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:44 pm

tibetan mod king

can you please go into more detail on your push / pull configuration?

did you cut a hole in the back of the psu? what fans?

thanks

Karma Police
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Post by Karma Police » Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:32 am

Hey, TMK, have you ever considered replacing the PSU chassis with a custom cover. That would have air blowing directly onto the heatsinks.

http://www.frozencpu.com/scan/se=Power% ... earch.html

P.S., Howdy, EnderW!

Ender17
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Post by Ender17 » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:50 am

Karma Police wrote:Hey, TMK, have you ever considered replacing the PSU chassis with a custom cover. That would have air blowing directly onto the heatsinks.

http://www.frozencpu.com/scan/se=Power% ... earch.html

P.S., Howdy, EnderW!
Hey :wink:

joikd
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Post by joikd » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:20 pm

TMK, what do you think about using an undervolted blower instead of a fan? From what I've read they are quieter and perform better than a fan in a high pressure environment (cramped insides of a PSU).

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Post by perplex » Thu May 19, 2005 7:55 am

lets bring this thread back to life :]

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