Replacing Enermax fans with no modifications what so ever?

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

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falloutboy20
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Replacing Enermax fans with no modifications what so ever?

Post by falloutboy20 » Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:35 pm

Just wondering if its possible to take a quiet 80mm fan (Papst, Panaflo) and a quiet 92mm fan (Papst, Vantec) and replace the Enermax fans on an EG365P-VE(FC) with no soldering or mods of any kind without having any weird pitfalls to avoid (voltage weirdness, wrong # of pins, fans not starting up properly)

If its possible to simply drop those two fans in without any problems, could I expect to see a very significant drop in noise? If any of the fans I mentioned do have any weird issues about pins and voltage and stuff, are there any fans that come to mind that would be direct replacements with no problems?

-or-

Would it just be easier/more cost effective to sell the Enermax and buy an equivalent wattage Seasonic?

Thanks.... this is a great site, I cant wait until my computer is so quiet it actually sucks ambient noise into it like a black hole of sound ;)

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Post by MikeC » Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:41 pm

The best option might be to replace the 92mm fan with a quieter one & simply remove the 80mm one. Also block the intake air vents on the front. Obviously need to find a way to keep the wire grill over the exhaust hole on -- small bolts & nuts would do. Unless you're drawing a huge amount of power with something like a multi-cpu server with 10 drives, I can't see any problems with this. It's unlikely there would be any side effects -- the starting fan voltage on the Enermax is high enough to start any 12V fan.

falloutboy20
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Post by falloutboy20 » Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:58 pm

Let's say I replace the 92mm fan with a Vantec Stealth- would there be anything special that I would need to do or would it be as simple as just popping one out and popping the other in?

Would there be anything especially funky about removing the 80mm fan other than temps going up/airflow going down? Anything internally that I would have to do like with the thermistor?

Thanks for your help Mike...

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Post by MikeC » Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:43 pm

No, I don't think, so. Just pull them out, drop the one in.

BTW, the Vantec Stealth is not a quiet fan** even though it runs much slower than the existing 92mm Globe Fan in the Enermax. The bearing buzzes audibly regardless of speed (5-12V), and the fan vibrates. The orig. Globe Fan makes less bearing noise and makes less noise pushing the same amount of air. I'd just leave that one in place and see how quiet it runs. The 80mm fan makes much more noise.

**It IS possible that my samples are not representative. Both of the 80mm Vantec Stealth models have better bearings.

falloutboy20
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Post by falloutboy20 » Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:53 pm

That sounds cool Mike, thanks... if the Vantec isnt a quiet 92mm fan, what would you recommend? Just going with what's on paper, it was one of the quietest ones I could find.... Thanks.

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Post by MikeC » Tue Aug 27, 2002 4:07 pm

Papst, Panaflo, PC Power & Cooling Silencer -- these are all quiet, but as usual, harder to find. Basically, any fan rated at 0.12A or lower with decent bearings is pretty quiet. The 92mm Vantec has a low .07 amp rating but the bearing noise & vibes (in my samples) is bad. If you get one, make sure you can exchange it.

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Post by falloutboy20 » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:55 pm

Im curious what you would think about blocking the front vent regardless on that power supply. Im thinking now that I might do a couple of Papst fans in it (a 12dbA 80mm and a 23dbA 92mm) just for the extra air flow. Do you think blocking the front vent with this setup would be beneficial?

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Post by MikeC » Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:06 pm

Yeah, it might provide better cooling.

The reason for blocking the intake vents w/ the 92mm fan only is that if the 80mm fan is not running, the air blown into the PSU by the 92mm fan is free to move either direction. By blocking the intake vents, it has only one path, which is out. If you use just the 80mm fan, then I'd recommend blocking the 92mm fan hole. Not doing so means the heatsinks really won't get the airflow across them, as the natural path is thru the 92mm hole & straight out the 80mm fan exhaust.

The reasons why I think the 92mm fan only is the best choice:
1) one fan makes less noise than 2
2) 2 fans also cause more turbulence noise than 1
3) The larger fan can more more air at lower rpm.
4) It is deeper inside the case & thus less audible.

shunx
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Post by shunx » Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:08 pm

MikeC, I noticed a review which rates quite favourably toward the Vantec Stealth fans:
http://www.modthebox.com/review60_1.html

Abstract:
"21 dBA"
"When compared with the Panaflo Low, the unit matches the noise level, but pushes an additional 3 CFM of air."
"Clearly, you can hear that the Vantec Stealth is extremely quiet, and of course, when installed in a case, would be next to impossible to perceive."

What is the truth?

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Post by Red Dawn » Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:22 pm

"The truth is out there".

*hums on the X-files tune*... sorry, couldn't resist it. :D

I must say I'm surprised they didn't include the "louder" papst 80 mm. version rated at: 19dBa, 26.5CFM, maybe they didn't like the competition?

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Post by MikeC » Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:51 pm

Red Dawn wrote:"The truth is out there".
:lol: very funny!

No claims on *THE* truth, but the biz about the V.S. being next to impossible to perceive when installed in a case: I want to say, "Have your hearing examined man!" Or maybe, just turn off the other 90cfm screamers! It's easy to hear the 80mm Panaflo at 12V inside a case if you have a reasonably quiet system. The 80mm VS is louder and has a rougher quality to the sound, and as you lower drive voltage, the Panaflo -- to my ears -- is clearly quieter and smoother. But the 80mm VS is not *bad*. It's quieter than most fans, although I suspect all they did was to add resistance internally to a "normal" fan. Fine text on the label says it is made by Nidec: D08T-12PMA.

My sample of the 92mm VS is bad: very buzzy, and that buzziness never goes away even at 5V.

BTW, V will want to kill me if they see these comments after I blew up their PSU. :twisted:

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Post by Red Dawn » Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:37 pm

Don't worry, they'll never find you.

You live in Canada, remember?
Besides, their people would have to cross over the border into the wilderness to come and get you.

Bah, crazy townsfolk.. ;-)

"When I was young..." etc. etc. :lol:

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Post by Rusty075 » Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:03 pm

Falloutboy20, I modded my enermax in almost the exact way you're talking about.

I pulled the both stock fans, then replaced the 92mm with a 92 Papst i've got running at 7v. I left the 80mm completely off, just bolting the grill back over the opening to keep from frying my fingertips off should I go reaching around back there. I found that blocking the other vents holes in the PSU makes a considerable difference in the temps. Both my case temps and the temp of the PSU went down, thanks to the more efficient airflow. If you don't block those vents some of the warm air from the 92mm just gets recirculated back into the case.

Modded in this fashion my Enermax is virtually silent, I have to stop the other fans in my system complety to even hear it. (and those other fans consist only of one 80mm Papst@5v, and one 120mm Panaflo @<5v)

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Post by Ausone » Wed Oct 09, 2002 9:12 pm

Another alternative is to remove the bottom 92mm fan and run the 80mm fan at 5v. Even if 7-volted, the noise level of the quietest Papst 92mm fan is likely to be 11 -- 12 dBA or so, whereas the noise level of a loud fan with a good airflow rated at, say, 25dBA/30CFM, drops down to something like 6dBA if 5-volted.

In this case, you should add heatsinks to the default heatsinks of an Enermax, which is possible because of space created by removing 92mm fan. This compensate for a small airflow by a 5-volted fan.

I haven't compared both approach, but I suppose this can be as much quiet or even slightly quieter than removing 80mm fan. Actually, I modded my Enermax in this manner.

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Post by Rusty075 » Wed Oct 09, 2002 9:31 pm

Even at 5v the Stock 80mm Globe fan in the Enermax is louder than the 92mm Papst at7v, and the Papst moves considerably more air.

There are a couple of other advantages that I see to keeping the 92mm instead of the 80:

The 92 blows directly onto the heatsinks, rather than drawing diffused air across them.

And the sound from the 92 is muffled by burying it inside the case, and its 90 degree angle to the vent, rather than having it right at the back of the case.


If you went with the stock Enermax fan you could probably get away with 5v, since it moves more air than Papst, albeit with more noise as well.

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Post by shunx » Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:01 pm

where do you guys get your 92mm Papst...?

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Post by quokked » Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:20 am

why don't u get a 92MM panaflow L1A's they should be easier to find :)

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Post by Rusty075 » Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:28 am

Where are you at, geographically?

Noise wise, the panaflo's and papst's are nearly the same, and if you're undervolting it the panaflo may even be a btter idea. Some papst's fans make an annoying clicking noise when running at low voltage.

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Post by shunx » Thu Oct 10, 2002 11:03 pm

I'm in Vancouver, Canada.

is this the Panaflo 92m L1A that you guys would recommend?
http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/Merchan ... de=0100.30

it's 42.7CFM, 27dbA. Isn't 27dbA a bit loud? (I need to turn down the voltage?)

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Post by quokked » Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:43 am

Yup that's the 92MM Panaflow that u want :), I know the specs say they're a bit loud but u'll be undervolting it anyway, or u could try some papst fans but I don't know anything about them I stick to the good ole panaflows :)

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Post by shunx » Fri Oct 11, 2002 5:28 pm

quokked wrote:Yup that's the 92MM Panaflow that u want :), I know the specs say they're a bit loud but u'll be undervolting it anyway, or u could try some papst fans but I don't know anything about them I stick to the good ole panaflows :)
All right thanks. I don't think any store in Canada sells 92mm Papst anyway!

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Post by Ausone » Sat Oct 12, 2002 12:18 am

Even at 5v the Stock 80mm Globe fan in the Enermax is louder than the 92mm Papst at7v, and the Papst moves considerably more air.
Why do you have to keep the stock fan? I'm not suggesting 5-volting the stock fan but rather replacing the stock fan with a new fan to be 5-volted. If you use a 80mm fan rated at around 25dBA/30CFM, it is definitely quieter than 92mm Papst at 7v, although it has less air flow.
The 92 blows directly onto the heatsinks, rather than drawing diffused air across them.
On the other hand, however, you can add an heatsink to the default one if you remove 92mm fan.
And the sound from the 92 is muffled by burying it inside the case, and its 90 degree angle to the vent, rather than having it right at the back of the case.
I'm not sure how much noise reduction is achieved by this. Note that 5-volted 80mm Papst 8412NGM, for instance, is estimated to be about 7dBA whereas 7-volted 92mm Papst 3412NGL is estimated to be about 12 dBA.
if you're undervolting it the panaflo may even be a btter idea. Some papst's fans make an annoying clicking noise when running at low voltage.
A Panaflo makes an annoying noise from motor friction if it is 5-volted.

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Post by quokked » Sat Oct 12, 2002 1:05 am

A Panaflo makes an annoying noise from motor friction if it is 5-volted.
errr okay I had one of those noises from a ball Bearing panaflow but I've 5V the FBA Hydrowave ones and it doesn't seem to make any noise though *shrugs* :?

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Post by Ausone » Sat Oct 12, 2002 1:53 am

I've 5V the FBA Hydrowave ones and it doesn't seem to make any noise though *shrugs*
The sample I tested was also FBA08A12L1A. Of course, there can be variation by individual. Yours could be a better one and mine could be a worse one. But I've also heard from other people that a 5-volted Panaflo FBA08A12L1A makes certain type of noticeable noise other than air flow noise. So a significant percentage of Panaflo FBA08A12L1As seem to display this property when 5-volted.

BTW, with regard to removing 80mm fan vs 92mm fan, I forgot to mention one advantage of leaving a 80mm fan. A 80mm fan on the rear is presumably more efficient than a 90mm fan on the bottom in exhausting air from the case.

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Post by quokked » Sat Oct 12, 2002 2:51 am

Hmmm true ausone but the 92MM fan has more airflow for the size, probably the best way is to block the intake on the front of the power supply and run the 92MM fan and that will also help general case ventilation as well. :) that's my ideas though :)

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Post by josephclemente » Sat Oct 12, 2002 9:50 am

I just replaced the chattery 92mm fan in my Enermax with a Papst 3412NGL. The second 80mm fan is still removed.

It is extremely quiet, but now I can barely feel any airflow coming out of the vents. After a while the PSU chassis starts to heat up now. I believe there is a thermistor inside, slowing the fan too much, but it never speeds the fan up any as heat increases... :(

Guess I'll have to open it up again and disable the thermistor...

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Post by Rusty075 » Sat Oct 12, 2002 11:26 am

An easy way to deal with the thermosistor is to not deal with it at all. On my Enermax I ran the wires from my replacement 92mm out with the wiring bundle, so I can make voltage adjustments to the fan without opening the PSU each time.

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Post by Red Dawn » Sun Oct 13, 2002 2:39 am

So do I, although I have a single-fan PSU, so I'm having my 80 mm. fan cables go through the grill, which I've cut partly open.

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Post by josephclemente » Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:41 pm

Well, I removed the thermistor and soldered the thermistor's wires together and let the 92 mm fan run at full speed. To my dismay, the fan isn't as quiet as I expected at 12v. So I ran the wire back through the PSU and it is now running at 5V.

So far I'm happy with the three 80 mm Papst 8412 NGL fans running at 12V (Intake, CPU and second PSU fan).

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Post by hkgolden » Tue Nov 05, 2002 11:22 pm

so who can conclue this topic ??

1. remove 92mm bottom fan, block that hole

2. remove 80mm fan, block the rear vents holes

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