insufferably inane question about power supply power cords:)

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee, Devonavar

rei
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:36 am

insufferably inane question about power supply power cords:)

Post by rei » Fri May 06, 2005 7:59 pm

apologies in advance!

i'm selling my used antec smartpower 350 power supply to a stranger off the local forsale newsgroup. oddly enough he anally *insists* on the 'original' power cord that came with the psu.

my question is--f-f-s does it really matter?

i've disconnected/reconnected/examined a whole mess of them from the 4 power supplies i have lying around (including 1 or 2 that go to external firewire drive cases) and i have no idea which came with what originally anymore.

i've got 2 'linetek' cords lying around so i'll assume they're what came with the two generic 'powerman' power supplies that came with my two inwin v523 cases.

squinting eyes at the plug i have connected to my bytetec firewire enclosure says it's yung-li one of some sort. hmm, can't find the plug for my other generic oxford firewire 911 one so i'll assume it's generic.

my seasonic s12-430 plug seems to be a yung-li yc-12. since both of these things are taiwanese made i'll assume they're using taiwanese plugs.

hell, does it really matter? my seasonic says "100-240 vac" but i don't see any markings to that measurement on the numbers on the length of the cable.

otherwise, if anyone could tell me what -their- original antec power cord reads as so i could find it in my pile, i could close a $40 sale to someone who seems overly anal for the wrong reasons and knows less than me about power @_@

course there was a guy who was anal and picky enough to bring along portable power source to test the panaflos i was selling for $5 and dared quibble about slight hum on one...they were $5! sheesh.

all i know about power is buying ac adapters for small gadgets or appliances with the matching plugs and enough voltage ;)
Last edited by rei on Fri May 06, 2005 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Fri May 06, 2005 8:10 pm

It probably does not matter if all the cords came with PSU's of roughly equal power rating. There are differences in quality. I remember at least one vendor who had to recall their cords because they were potentially defective and could cause a fire hazard.

Green Shoes
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:41 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Post by Green Shoes » Fri May 06, 2005 9:38 pm

Nah, no one has invented a proprietary way to transfer AC yet. As long as a particular cable can carry the correct amount of current without melting I don't think it matters. I know a couple of guys who throw away the ones that come with their audio gear and solder their own power cables....they just use thick line and they're probably better quality than the ones that came with the gear. :roll:

But since you're not talking about a 600W+ PSU here, any of the PSU cords that you have should work fine.

frankgehry
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:00 am
Location: New York, NY

Post by frankgehry » Fri May 06, 2005 11:41 pm

I've noticed my antec is a lot thicker than my FSP or Enermax. Why can't he just pick out the one he wants?

peteamer
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:24 am
Location: 'Sunny' Cornwall U.K.

Post by peteamer » Sat May 07, 2005 2:17 am

rei, you simply have to ask this guy why and let us know. :D

(Green Shoes, removing the standard connectors and soldering the power cable straight onto the PSU PCB is perfectly normal, as is removing all ribbon cable connetors and soldering ribbon cables straight onto PCB's ... honest ... :oops: )


Pete

Green Shoes
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:41 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Post by Green Shoes » Sat May 07, 2005 9:47 am

peteamer wrote: (Green Shoes, removing the standard connectors and soldering the power cable straight onto the PSU PCB is perfectly normal, as is removing all ribbon cable connetors and soldering ribbon cables straight onto PCB's ... honest ... :oops: )
man, that's yet another support group we're going to have to start here.... :lol:

More power to you. I'm not knowledgeable enough to solder onto PCB. (And a bit of a wuss when it comes to anything with capacitors attached.... :oops: ))

Devonavar
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 1850
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:23 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by Devonavar » Sat May 07, 2005 10:24 am

My God, that is pretty anally retentive.

As has been said already, the only variation in these cables is the thickness and the current they're rated for. Since the guy obviously doesn't have any grasp of electronics, just give him the thickest one you have and he won't know the difference. I'm sure PSU companies change the cords they use from time to time anyway.

Just make sure you test it first. You wouldn't want to give him one of those rare cables with the ground and neutral lines switched ... right? :roll: ... :roll: ... :lol:

peteamer
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:24 am
Location: 'Sunny' Cornwall U.K.

Post by peteamer » Sat May 07, 2005 10:49 am

Green Shoes,

Support Group!!! :shock: .. You, ... You, ... You mean, ... we don't all do it !!! :shock: :shock:

Devonavar wrote:My God, that is pretty anally retentive.
I'm just gonna pretend you mean the other Guy... :oops: ...



Pete .. :lol: ... :oops: ... :roll: ...

Ralf Hutter
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 8636
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
Location: Sunny SoCal

Post by Ralf Hutter » Sun May 08, 2005 7:06 am

Green Shoes wrote:Nah, no one has invented a proprietary way to transfer AC yet. As long as a particular cable can carry the correct amount of current without melting I don't think it matters. I know a couple of guys who throw away the ones that come with their audio gear and solder their own power cables....they just use thick line and they're probably better quality than the ones that came with the gear. :roll:

But since you're not talking about a 600W+ PSU here, any of the PSU cords that you have should work fine.
Ha! You must not know too much about IEC power cords, eh? Prepare to be enlightened....

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Sun May 08, 2005 7:27 am

I guess that I should get these Speaker Cables for my PC speakers.

Ralf Hutter
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 8636
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
Location: Sunny SoCal

Post by Ralf Hutter » Sun May 08, 2005 7:39 am

m0002a wrote:I guess that I should get these Speaker Cables for my PC speakers.
You bet! Cardas is 'da bomb.

Green Shoes
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:41 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Post by Green Shoes » Sun May 08, 2005 8:14 am

Ralf Hutter wrote:Ha! You must not know too much about IEC power cords, eh? Prepare to be enlightened....
$744 for a 13-ft power cable? :shock: :shock: I think I liked it better when I didn't know about that...I think it'd be cheaper to actually generate your own clean power at that point....

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Sun May 08, 2005 8:28 am

Green Shoes wrote:$744 for a 13-ft power cable? :shock: :shock: I think I liked it better when I didn't know about that...I think it'd be cheaper to actually generate your own clean power at that point....
Actually Cardas is only considered borderline hi-end. You can find IEC power cords for over $2,000, and speaker cables for over $5,000.

peteamer
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:24 am
Location: 'Sunny' Cornwall U.K.

Post by peteamer » Sun May 08, 2005 10:00 am

Green Shoes wrote:$744 for a 13-ft power cable? :shock: :shock:
Green Shoes,

NO(!!!) self respecting audiophile would ever desecrate the power line by using 13-ft cable/leads,... unless absolutely necessary,... the excess would be cut off and thrown away... irrespective of cost...

Really (*rolls eyes*) ... 'some' people have no idea... ( *Tsk Tsk* !!! ) :roll: :roll:

People like you should be thrashed to within an inch of their lives with a Marantz power lead. And if you still don't understand... we'll get the Bose leads out and really insult you !!!



Personally I always 'calm' my CD's before playing them by letting them savour some Nana Mouskouri/Claud Whatshisname first...


Pete

StarfishChris
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:13 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Post by StarfishChris » Sun May 08, 2005 10:44 am

I just converted my record collection to 64kbps MP3 files, so now I'm going to hook the PC up to the speakers downstairs with some 1mm electrical wire I found. I think it may just be too short - thankfully the speakers are actively-powered and I have a long extension lead!

Green Shoes
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:41 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Post by Green Shoes » Sun May 08, 2005 11:52 am

StarfishChris wrote:I just converted my record collection to 64kbps MP3 files, so now I'm going to hook the PC up to the speakers downstairs with some 1mm electrical wire I found. I think it may just be too short - thankfully the speakers are actively-powered and I have a long extension lead!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

@ peteamer...

...I think some audiophiles at least have enough brains to go for a conditioning unit like this. It's more cost-effective b/c it does several components at once, plus it's a new piece of gear to show off to all the other idiots on your block who are actually impressed by that kind of thing. It's hard to strike envy in others with an AC cord :wink:

rei
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:36 am

Post by rei » Sun May 08, 2005 3:20 pm

Looks like my initial inquiry about wackos on one end of the spectrum have led to wackos from the -other- end making themselves known :D

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Sun May 08, 2005 3:51 pm

rei wrote:Looks like my initial inquiry about wackos on one end of the spectrum have led to wackos from the -other- end making themselves known :D
I don't think the person who bought your PSU is a wacko. True, most power cords for PSU's are rated to carry the same load, but not all IEC cords are the same just because they are called IEC power cords. You are assuming that if the connectors are the same at both ends and the cords are black, they are all the same on the inside.

They "may be" the same, but not necessarily so, especially if the cords were designed for a different devices other than a PSU, or for PSU’s of significantly different power ratings. Manufacturers are very cost conscious, and it is not unreasonable to think that a 200 watt PSU might be shipped with a power cord of a different rating than a cord that comes with a 400 watt PSU, even it saves them only $0.10 each. As noted by one person, the Antec cords appear to be a bit thicker than average.

Wedge
Posts: 1360
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:59 pm
Location: NorthEast Arkansas, USA

Post by Wedge » Sun May 08, 2005 4:12 pm

peteamer wrote: Personally I always 'calm' my CD's before playing them by letting them savour some Nana Mouskouri/Claud Whatshisname first...


Pete
LoL Image

BobDog
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 12:12 pm

Post by BobDog » Sun May 08, 2005 6:37 pm

Ok, I could not resist. I am new to this whole PC thing (… silent or other otherwise), but I have a long audiophile history. And man, do we ever LOVE our AC cords.

I have recently downsized my audio system and am now using less expensive and less extreme AC cords (I now use only Shunyata’s mid-priced Taipans http://www.shunyata.com/ ). Before however, I was using a large number of 6ft. Shunyata Pythons ($1000.00/6ft./ea.) (I have since sold them all at http://www.audiogon.com/ , sorry guys, they’ve all been taken). Let me just say that the Shunyatas simply blew away the highly regarded Cardas (of earlier on in this post) and Kimber cables against which I tested them (though I never had a chance to test them head-to-head against the Elrod Statements or the Nordost Valhallas—which are something like 4000+/ea., I believe) . Please believe me, it was not just me who heard a clear difference, there was not a SINGLE person who listened to my system that was not struck by the change between AC cables. My roommate, a superconductor engineer (engineer = “no freekin’ way AC cables can make a difference in the sound”) was simply left shaking his head—though I admit he consistently preferred the sound of the Kimber to the Shunyata cables. All this is to say that their can be a massive difference in AC cords… for AUDIO and VIDEO gear.

For COMPUTERS? Now even I find this a little difficult to believe! If your system is stable, then you are ok… unless you are using a very high quality on-board sound card in which case you might notice that AC ripple noise might conceivably be disturbing the crystal oscillator (clock) and thus introducing additional jitter into your playback system and/or dumping AC noise into your analogue output stage, if you were doing your digital to analogue conversion on-board.

I doubt you would notice even this however b/c all the crap generated on the PC side of the AC receptacle (principally by the PC’s PSU) will be far, far more damaging than anything coming in from the power company. And this is the FINAL reason why a high quality power cord may be desirable in even a PC based system: PC PSUs dump an un-Godly mess back into the AC line, contaminating everything else operating on the same circuit. A little-understood fact of high quality AC lines is that they not only protect the gear into which they are plugged from the power company, but they also protect delicate electronics (i.e. pre-amps) from dirty electronics (i.e. anything digital—like computers). This is one reason why many recording studios dump massive cash into their AC (and why many have chosen Shynyata too).

That said, I doubt the sucky cord packaged with the antec will offer any advantage over any other similarly sucky cord—indeed, most quality cords cost several times the price of the WHOLE PSU! Anyway, this has been a very, very long way of saying that (1) AC cords CAN make a difference, but also that (2) that guy who wants to by rei’s antec is a freak.

(PS: Please note that (1) I am NOT saying more expensive audio gear necessarily sounds better—the opposite can often be the case, or that (2) cable manufacturers give us good value for our money—they are highway robbers, we all know it, but if one cannot find anything that sounds as good for less… what RU you gonna’ do?)

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Sun May 08, 2005 7:29 pm

BobDog wrote:That said, I doubt the sucky cord packaged with the antec will offer any advantage over any other similarly sucky cord—indeed, most quality cords cost several times the price of the WHOLE PSU! Anyway, this has been a very, very long way of saying that (1) AC cords CAN make a difference, but also that (2) that guy who wants to by rei’s antec is a freak.
I don't think that buyer of the PSU is concerned about audio quality. I don't think the buyer would be concerned if all the possible power cables had the same gauge of wire as the OEM Antec so that it would be adequately sized for the application. One of the world's largest computer manufacturers had to recall hundreds of thousands power cords because the gauge of wire used was too thin for its intended use, so not all power cables are equal.

The likelihood of a problem developing with any of the cables that might be sent to the PSU buyer is probably slim, but I don't see how you can say for sure without examining all the cables, which obviously the buyer can't really do.

sthayashi
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 3214
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Post by sthayashi » Sun May 08, 2005 7:45 pm

BobDog wrote:I have recently downsized my audio system and am now using less expensive and less extreme AC cords (I now use only Shunyata’s mid-priced Taipans http://www.shunyata.com/ ). Before however, I was using a large number of 6ft. Shunyata Pythons ($1000.00/6ft./ea.) (I have since sold them all at http://www.audiogon.com/ , sorry guys, they’ve all been taken). Let me just say that the Shunyatas simply blew away the highly regarded Cardas (of earlier on in this post) and Kimber cables against which I tested them (though I never had a chance to test them head-to-head against the Elrod Statements or the Nordost Valhallas—which are something like 4000+/ea., I believe) . Please believe me, it was not just me who heard a clear difference, there was not a SINGLE person who listened to my system that was not struck by the change between AC cables. My roommate, a superconductor engineer (engineer = “no freekin’ way AC cables can make a difference in the sound”) was simply left shaking his head—though I admit he consistently preferred the sound of the Kimber to the Shunyata cables. All this is to say that their can be a massive difference in AC cords… for AUDIO and VIDEO gear.
:shock: If you live within 90 minutes of Pittsburgh, I'd LOVE to visit and perform a double blind test on you. I've made this challenge to Ed, but sadly he lives too far away for me to casually visit.

Green Shoes
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:41 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Post by Green Shoes » Sun May 08, 2005 8:13 pm

sthayashi wrote: :shock: If you live within 90 minutes of Pittsburgh, I'd LOVE to visit and perform a double blind test on you. I've made this challenge to Ed, but sadly he lives too far away for me to casually visit.
Ditto anywhere near Nashville. I have seen the inner workings of major studios that run on "tech power" (or the orange plugs, for the uninformed) and the incredible amount of money that they spend on completely isolating the transformers from any possible corruption source, lights, etc. But this is to eliminate the dreaded "60-cycle hum" from coming through on audio tracks with guitar amps, tube mics, etc. I too don't see a way that a power cord can have "character", like swapping a mic would; the only change would be the presence/absence of 60-Hz badness.

BobDog
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 12:12 pm

Post by BobDog » Sun May 08, 2005 9:05 pm

I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DO A QUOTE SO THAT IT SAYS WHO THE QUOTE IS FROM... THE FOLLOWING ARE FROM M0002A, STHAYASHI AND GREEN SHOES, IN THAT ORDER.
One of the world's largest computer manufacturers had to recall hundreds of thousands power cords because the gauge of wire used was too thin for its intended use, so not all power cables are equal.
Very true. If the AC cord simply cannot pass the current required by the PSU then you do indeed have a problem. No argument there. I think that this is a pretty low criterion for acceptable cords, however—insisting on the EXACT stock cord because you are worried about that seems a little over-the-top.
If you live within 90 minutes of Pittsburgh, I'd LOVE to visit and perform a double blind test on you. I've made this challenge to Ed, but sadly he lives too far away for me to casually visit.
Ditto anywhere near Nashville. I have seen the inner workings of major studios that run on "tech power" (or the orange plugs, for the uninformed) and the incredible amount of money that they spend on completely isolating the transformers from any possible corruption source, lights, etc. But this is to eliminate the dreaded "60-cycle hum" from coming through on audio tracks with guitar amps, tube mics, etc. I too don't see a way that a power cord can have "character", like swapping a mic would; the only change would be the presence/absence of 60-Hz badness.
I am afraid that I live in Santa Barbara, Ca. … I already did a double-blind test with a friend/skeptic (see my above post on friend/engineer/skeptic) but we didn’t really follow all the way through. After the first time he switched the cables to see if I’d really been listening, HE found the difference so easy to hear that HE stopped the test because the difference was so obvious that he concluded that there was really no point in going on. The "60-cycle hum" is a result of interacting electronics that have different ground potentials. Eliminating this is, of course, a pretty good idea. To say that the quality of the AC into the gear cannot be heard (in addition to this) is simply not correct, however. Think of it this way, all that analog audio (or video) equipment does is move and amplify information "stored" as electricity; ANYTHING riding along on this electricity will raise the noise floor, obscuring and/or screwing up the low-level musical info. (and/or an insufficient PSU will truncate transients, leading to duller, lifeless audio as well). This is why many audio manufacturers (the good ones, anyway) go to such lengths designing in filters, chokes, isolation transformers, batteries, and other design exotica into their PSUs—clean power REALLY matters. The better this on-board regulation, maybe, MAYBE the less effect that designer cords and conditioners will have sound quality… though I have never, ever heard a component that was unaffected by a AC cord swap. NOTE: Different need not be BETTER, and often is not, it's just different (for example, Shunyata cords are consistently dynamic and “alive”, while the Kimber cords are consistently smoother and more romantic; I prefer the former, my roommate likes the latter—which is “better”, I cannot say.

In any case guys, don’t let my living 2000 miles away stop YOU from taking the test. I have no doubt that both Pittsburg and Tennessee, being a major metropolises, have a number of hi-end audio salons around. When you have a few hours to kill, drop by one and hear what you hear. I am not telling you that I am right, I am just saying that before you go around challenging others JUST LISTEN for yourself—you may be surprised. In fact, I’ll up the ante: why not find a salon that stocks hi-end AC wall receptacles—see if you can hear the difference by just switching out the plug into which the (same) AC cord is connected—I bet you can (I use Albert Porter modified cryo-treated Hubble Hospital-Grade AC outlets in my own system). Even better, see what happens when you lift you power and speaker cable off the floor (only if you have carpets). I’m not telling you what you’ll hear (if anything), just TRY IT.

Do not try this with a BOSE (Buy Other Stereo Equipment :D ) or other sucky system (think: anything I could buy in a Circuit City or Best Buy)—in such a case, I doubt that you would hear any difference at all.

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Sun May 08, 2005 9:41 pm

BobDog wrote:Very true. If the AC cord simply cannot pass the current required by the PSU then you do indeed have a problem. No argument there. I think that this is a pretty low criterion for acceptable cords, however—insisting on the EXACT stock cord because you are worried about that seems a little over-the-top.
I am not sure getting the EXACT cord is the issue, although someone mentioned that Antec power cords seem to be thicker than others. The problem is that as a buyer, if you don't get the cord that came with the PSU, there is no telling where the power cord came from. It might have come from some piece of equipment that doesn't draw much power, and uses higher gauge (thinner) wire.

In fact the OP stated that some of cords they have include "1 or 2 that go to external firewire drive cases.” I would not want to use a power cord designed for an external firewire drive cases on a 350 watt PSU.

Again, I agree that likelihood of a problem is probably small, but I am not sure the guy is freak for wanting the OEM cord.
Last edited by m0002a on Sun May 08, 2005 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Re: insufferably inane question about power supply power cor

Post by m0002a » Sun May 08, 2005 9:48 pm

rei wrote:all i know about power is buying ac adapters for small gadgets or appliances with the matching plugs and enough voltage ;)
If you go to a hardware store or discount store that sells 120V extension cords, you will see that they come in different gauge wire (thickness). That is because of the amount of current drawn, not the voltage (which is always 120V).

So there are differences in power cables. Unfortunately it is usually difficult to know anything about the wire gauge of a IEC power cord just by looking at it.

But any power cord that came with a similar power PSU as the one you are selling should work fine.

sthayashi
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 3214
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Post by sthayashi » Mon May 09, 2005 5:25 am

BobDog wrote:In any case guys, don’t let my living 2000 miles away stop YOU from taking the test. I have no doubt that both Pittsburg and Tennessee, being a major metropolises, have a number of hi-end audio salons around. When you have a few hours to kill, drop by one and hear what you hear. I am not telling you that I am right, I am just saying that before you go around challenging others JUST LISTEN for yourself—you may be surprised. In fact, I’ll up the ante: why not find a salon that stocks hi-end AC wall receptacles—see if you can hear the difference by just switching out the plug into which the (same) AC cord is connected—I bet you can (I use Albert Porter modified cryo-treated Hubble Hospital-Grade AC outlets in my own system). Even better, see what happens when you lift you power and speaker cable off the floor (only if you have carpets). I’m not telling you what you’ll hear (if anything), just TRY IT.
I have exactly NO faith in my ability to hear an audible difference in terms of that. Heck, I have a very difficult time hearing mp3 artifacts above 128kbps, even though I have a reasonable midrange audio setup.

Green Shoes
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:41 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Post by Green Shoes » Mon May 09, 2005 6:31 am

BobDog wrote:I am afraid that I live in Santa Barbara, Ca. … I already did a double-blind test with a friend/skeptic (see my above post on friend/engineer/skeptic) but we didn’t really follow all the way through. After the first time he switched the cables to see if I’d really been listening, HE found the difference so easy to hear that HE stopped the test because the difference was so obvious that he concluded that there was really no point in going on. The "60-cycle hum" is a result of interacting electronics that have different ground potentials. Eliminating this is, of course, a pretty good idea. To say that the quality of the AC into the gear cannot be heard (in addition to this) is simply not correct, however. Think of it this way, all that analog audio (or video) equipment does is move and amplify information "stored" as electricity; ANYTHING riding along on this electricity will raise the noise floor, obscuring and/or screwing up the low-level musical info. (and/or an insufficient PSU will truncate transients, leading to duller, lifeless audio as well). This is why many audio manufacturers (the good ones, anyway) go to such lengths designing in filters, chokes, isolation transformers, batteries, and other design exotica into their PSUs—clean power REALLY matters. The better this on-board regulation, maybe, MAYBE the less effect that designer cords and conditioners will have sound quality… though I have never, ever heard a component that was unaffected by a AC cord swap. NOTE: Different need not be BETTER, and often is not, it's just different (for example, Shunyata cords are consistently dynamic and “alive”, while the Kimber cords are consistently smoother and more romantic; I prefer the former, my roommate likes the latter—which is “better”, I cannot say.
Very well. I was simply uninformed as to the science of it; thanks for enlightening me :) . However, it is not a luxury that I can currently afford; perhaps when I can finally afford those Cello towers I've wanted for years (not likely) powered by a nice McIntosh amp I'll think about it :wink: . For now I will try and use voltage regulators to keep my power as clean as possible.

Oh, BTW, to use someone's name in a quote, just type (quote="BobDog"), except replace the parentheses with brackets. End quotes the same way as otherwise, [/quote]

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Mon May 09, 2005 5:37 pm

BobDog wrote:I am afraid that I live in Santa Barbara, Ca. … I already did a double-blind test with a friend/skeptic (see my above post on friend/engineer/skeptic) but we didn’t really follow all the way through. After the first time he switched the cables to see if I’d really been listening, HE found the difference so easy to hear that HE stopped the test because the difference was so obvious that he concluded that there was really no point in going on. The "60-cycle hum" is a result of interacting electronics that have different ground potentials. Eliminating this is, of course, a pretty good idea. To say that the quality of the AC into the gear cannot be heard (in addition to this) is simply not correct, however. Think of it this way, all that analog audio (or video) equipment does is move and amplify information "stored" as electricity; ANYTHING riding along on this electricity will raise the noise floor, obscuring and/or screwing up the low-level musical info. (and/or an insufficient PSU will truncate transients, leading to duller, lifeless audio as well). This is why many audio manufacturers (the good ones, anyway) go to such lengths designing in filters, chokes, isolation transformers, batteries, and other design exotica into their PSUs—clean power REALLY matters. The better this on-board regulation, maybe, MAYBE the less effect that designer cords and conditioners will have sound quality… though I have never, ever heard a component that was unaffected by a AC cord swap. NOTE: Different need not be BETTER, and often is not, it's just different (for example, Shunyata cords are consistently dynamic and “alive”, while the Kimber cords are consistently smoother and more romantic; I prefer the former, my roommate likes the latter—which is “better”, I cannot say.

In any case guys, don’t let my living 2000 miles away stop YOU from taking the test. I have no doubt that both Pittsburg and Tennessee, being a major metropolises, have a number of hi-end audio salons around. When you have a few hours to kill, drop by one and hear what you hear. I am not telling you that I am right, I am just saying that before you go around challenging others JUST LISTEN for yourself—you may be surprised. In fact, I’ll up the ante: why not find a salon that stocks hi-end AC wall receptacles—see if you can hear the difference by just switching out the plug into which the (same) AC cord is connected—I bet you can (I use Albert Porter modified cryo-treated Hubble Hospital-Grade AC outlets in my own system). Even better, see what happens when you lift you power and speaker cable off the floor (only if you have carpets). I’m not telling you what you’ll hear (if anything), just TRY IT.

Do not try this with a BOSE (Buy Other Stereo Equipment :D ) or other sucky system (think: anything I could buy in a Circuit City or Best Buy)—in such a case, I doubt that you would hear any difference at all.
Geez even I just stick to the power cables that came with my equipment, and I have a few hundred dollars' worth of balanced XLR between my DAC and my control amp and speaker cables. It seems ludicrous to me to spend thousands of dollars on cables; the difference is too small to be worth the cost. I also felt that the oem cables included with high end equipment is generally good enough that spending hundreds of dollars on replacement power cables isn't improved to be worth the cost, either. Speaker cables and interconnect aren't included with the equipment, so you're going to have to buy something anyway--there's a definite plateau where some of the best $100-$150 cables are hardly discernable from far more expensive cables, but clearly superior to using snipped off lamp cord.

-Ed

BobDog
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 12:12 pm

Post by BobDog » Mon May 09, 2005 8:18 pm

Edward Ng wrote: Geez even I just stick to the power cables that came with my equipment, and I have a few hundred dollars' worth of balanced XLR between my DAC and my control amp and speaker cables. It seems ludicrous to me to spend thousands of dollars on cables; the difference is too small to be worth the cost. I also felt that the oem cables included with high end equipment is generally good enough that spending hundreds of dollars on replacement power cables isn't improved to be worth the cost, either.
Think of it this way: Krell says that absolutely, under no circumstances should you mess with their stock cords because the quality of their filtration is so good and they don’t want you to mess up their gear with AC cords that may not allow for enough current draw. BUT, I can still easily tell the difference between the Krell stock cord and my Shunyata Taipan Vx, which says to me that the Krell is not immune to upstream variations in AC, thus a quality cord may be a change for the better (unless the difference is that the Shunyata is restricting current… which I do not think is the case, but I have no way of really measuring). Does this make the Shunyata better than stock—not necessarily, though I prefer it. All I’m saying is you should TRY other cords, Ed and see—whether or not an upgrade is “worth” it is a question only you can answer.

Am I saying more expensive is always better? Not at all. You mention interconects et al., of all the digital interconnects I have used, I have never found one that I have preferred to the simple and inexpensive single-ended MIT AVt 1, the results have been consistent across a number of transports and DACs. Is this the best cord available? I doubt it very, very much—I have tried maybe 10-15 digital interconnects (Toslink [which no one should use—ever], RCA/single-ended, AT&T glass, and XLR/balanced among them) and there are probably 1000+ out there—I am sure ONE of them is better. But I am saying this cheap cord has bettered everything I have compared it to, including some very expensive ones, and when I find bargains like that I stick to them!
Edward Ng wrote: Speaker cables and interconnect aren't included with the equipment, so you're going to have to buy something anyway--there's a definite plateau where some of the best $100-$150 cables are hardly discernable from far more expensive cables, but clearly superior to using snipped off lamp cord.
Actually, some of the Stereophile folks have had great success with Home Depot heavy gauge pwr. cables as speaker cables. Because my current amp (Spectron) has proprietary speaker cables, I have not given this a try yet. But when I fully make the transition over to HT (and sell my stereo amp), you’d better believe that this is the first cable I’ll be hooking up! (BTW, I have favored the less expensive MIT speaker cables in the past as well, and they do continue to improve to price points that, performance aside, even I simply cannot justify paying, anyone for a $17395.00 pair of 10ft. Oracle V1.1 speaker cables? :shock: )

Post Reply