NeoHE: Failure or Defect

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee, Devonavar

Post Reply
Rory Buszka
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:58 pm

Post by Rory Buszka » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:21 pm

People should be sure to post the serial number of their PSUs. Apparently we can figure out what month the power supplies were manufactured in, which would help us figure out if Antec has ironed out all the bugs, or if only those power supplies made in September and October 2005 were the bad ones.

Honestly, I don't believe accounts of supposed incompatibilities with particular parts or combinations of parts. Some people got lucky and are having great results with supposedly "incompatible" configurations. If any parts were truly incompatible with the Antec NeoHE power supplies, there would be problems with ALL "incompatible" configurations or parts ALL of the time. Instead, I believe that some systems are just demanding enough of the power supplies that they cause the power supply to fail. I remain firmy convinced that the problem is still Antec's, and not that of any other hardware makers or system builders.
No one will believe in your dreams until you invest some money.

ASMET Purdue University
Staff Writer|Techgage.com

Devonavar
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 1850
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:23 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by Devonavar » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:40 pm

@Rory:

why should they ALL be incompatible? Whatever the problem with the NeoHE is, a few of things seem clear:

1. Only certain configurations are affected.
2. There seems to be a fair amount of variation in how badly each unit is affected.
3. The problem seems to be worse when the power load is greater.

As I understand it, point 1. indicates that it IS a compatibility problem, i.e. the PSU will power some systems fine and has problems with others. The degree to which the problem affects the individual units (2.) has nothing to do with whether or not it is a compatibility problem.

I have yet to see a single report in this poll of a NeoHE that has actually failed, (i.e. doesn't work with ANY motherboards). Just because the NeoHE doesn't work in a particular system doesn't mean that it has failed. The same power supply may work perfectly well in another system.

In many cases, the end result may be the same as a failure (i.e. an unusable system), but you're mis-diagnosing the problem. This is not a problem with a situation where a working PSU is rendered broken (i.e. a failure). It is an issue with a working PSU not working properly in all situations where it is supposed to (i.e. an incompatibility). Whether or not all units are affected has nothing do do with whether it is a failure.

Rory Buszka
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:58 pm

Post by Rory Buszka » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:50 pm

I always come up with a good witty retort after I've had a good night's sleep. Check back here tomorrow.

If something is incompatible, it should never work together with the thing it is incompatible with. In theory, if the NeoHE power supply has some incompatibility with an Asus A8n-SLI motherboard due to some characteristic which all NeoHE power supplies or all Asus a8n-SLI motherboards possess, then all Asus A8n-SLI motherboards should be incompatible with all NeoHE power supplies (or NeoHE power supplies of the same wattage rating), all the time, unless the incompatibility is the fault of some manufacturing defect that affects some of the products, some of the time. Which is my assertion - that many, many NeoHE power supplies are defective.

Read NewEgg reviews of the NeoHE power supplies and P150 cases and see what other peoples' experiences are. Some people are saying "It works fine for me on my A8n-SLI. I don't know what everyone else is griping about." Others are having trouble with random Pentium 4 setups, and still others are saying it's incompatible with all their Athlon 64 machines, and so on. So what exactly are the NeoHE power supplies incompatible with? Unless, of course, it is actually some defect with the NeoHE power supply, and not the motherboard, CPU, VGA card, number of hard drives connected, etc.
No one will believe in your dreams until you invest some money.

ASMET Purdue University
Staff Writer|Techgage.com

Devonavar
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 1850
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:23 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by Devonavar » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:31 pm

That's better. I can live with calling it a defect. In fact, I'd call it a manufacturing defect that leads to incompatibilities with (among others) the Asus A8N32-SLI.

Just don't call the problem a "failure". That term is completely incorrect.

jaganath
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Location: UK

Post by jaganath » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:08 am

Just don't call the problem a "failure". That term is completely incorrect.
Well the problems with the NeoHE have certainly been a failure from a public relations and marketing standpoint; you'll remember that this is not the first time that new PSU's from Antec have had extended teething troubles. I'm not suggesting that this will cause a wholesale defection away from Antec, but seeing as many of their products are aimed at the silencing market and it seems to have been this group that have been most affected, they have certainly weakened the reputation of their brand in a key user group.

Rory Buszka
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:58 pm

Post by Rory Buszka » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:45 am

The 5v rail on these power supplies is way too weak to be useful. Future revisions need to be able to supply an extra 5-10 amps on the 5v rail.
No one will believe in your dreams until you invest some money.

ASMET Purdue University
Staff Writer|Techgage.com

Devonavar
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 1850
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:23 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by Devonavar » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:48 am

@jaganath:

Ok, yes, I suppose it's a PR failure, but that's not how Rory was using the term. "cause the power supply to fail" does not leave open the interpretation that it is a PR failure.

@Rory:

As long as the +5V rail is rated honestly, I find it very, very difficult to believe that 14A is not enough (except for very old systems where the CPU draws from the +5V). 14A is 70W ... and when I measured the power distribution in a wide range of systems, I never saw the power draw above 4A. It's VERY implausible that the NeoHE is having problems because the sysetms are drawing 70W+ from +5V.

Aleksi
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:34 pm
Location: Finland -- Folding For SPCR

Post by Aleksi » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:35 am

Why are some the SPCR staff so keen on doing Antec's job and defending the NeoHE?
[size=75]Just because I didn't respond to your post doesn't mean you were right. It just means I was speechless as to how to reply to such an idiotic statement

[url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?p=330459][MainRig][/url][url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?p=354320][HTPC][/url][url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=18727][Playground][/url][/size]

jaganath
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Location: UK

Post by jaganath » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:42 am

Why are some the SPCR staff so keen on doing Antec's job and defending the NeoHE?
Because the site could get sued if people were slandering Antec's good name (ie stating that ALL their products were as problematic as the NeoHE)? Just a guess.

NB. I realise slander is spoken, not written, defamation but internet discussion forums have aspects of both the spoken and written word.

Aleksi
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:34 pm
Location: Finland -- Folding For SPCR

Post by Aleksi » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:34 am

SPCR users can have opinions. Like "NeoHE sucks", "NeoHE r0xz!" or "I really don't feel comfortable buying a NeoHE because it seems to have problems". There's nothing wrong with that. That's the people's right.

It is another thing if an SPCR user says "I work for Antec. I have proof that all of the NeoHEs are faulty, see these official documents". That would be a problem if none of that was true and the documents were false. (Actually if it was all true, you would still have a problem for giving out technical information and documents about your company's products without authorization.)

Independent internet review sites and their staff have no (legal or any other kind of) obligation to defend any product just because they reviewed it.
[size=75]Just because I didn't respond to your post doesn't mean you were right. It just means I was speechless as to how to reply to such an idiotic statement

[url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?p=330459][MainRig][/url][url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?p=354320][HTPC][/url][url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=18727][Playground][/url][/size]

spolitta
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:44 pm
Location: Earth

Post by spolitta » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:25 pm

jaganath wrote:
Why are some the SPCR staff so keen on doing Antec's job and defending the NeoHE?
Because the site could get sued if people were slandering Antec's good name (ie stating that ALL their products were as problematic as the NeoHE)? Just a guess.
Antec suing mike, what a bad guess.

jaganath
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Location: UK

Post by jaganath » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:28 pm

Also, keep in mind that SPCR is dependent on Antec to supply it with review samples etc. So to a certain extent the site and it's owners have to be careful not to bite the hand that feeds it, by maintaining a strictly neutral editorial line and reigning in posters who are overly and persistently critical of the company's products for no good reason. I'm not saying anyone on here is guilty of that, but simply outlining possible reasons for the strict editorial stance.

S1mon
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: Ottawa

Post by S1mon » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:23 pm

Aleksi wrote:Why are some the SPCR staff so keen on doing Antec's job and defending the NeoHE?
Are they? I think they are just trying to keep things in perspective and take an unemotional look at the situation. After all, this this is the same site that set up the Neo HE poll inviting factual feedback on the issue. It's more than likely that I've missed a few posts that have made you form your opinion, but what I've read it seems pretty balanced. I'm speaking as someone who got burnt with a Neo HE, so I'm not entirely impartial.

Erssa
Posts: 1421
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:26 pm
Location: Finland

Post by Erssa » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:03 pm

jaganath wrote:Also, keep in mind that SPCR is dependent on Antec to supply it with review samples etc. So to a certain extent the site and it's owners have to be careful not to bite the hand that feeds it, by maintaining a strictly neutral editorial line and reigning in posters who are overly and persistently critical of the company's products for no good reason. I'm not saying anyone on here is guilty of that, but simply outlining possible reasons for the strict editorial stance.
I love SPCR forums, because this is one of the rare forums where I don't see a need for moderation, or maybe it is done so smoothly that it can't be seen. It is really something extraordinary how troll free this forums is. Even most of the new users actually read the FAQs, unlike for example in Anandtech forums... Yeah Anandtech is a lot bigger then SPCR, ranked 12th in number of posts according to http://www.big-boards.com/, but still imo it is a bit out of control, It is hard to ask advice there, because everyone just starts their own threads on the same topic and you post is lost to page 6 after 1 day...
Sorry for going way off topic. I just love the these forums :)

More on topic, I don't have personal experience with NEO HE (or any antec product for the matter), but I still think people here are overly critic on this issue. I know how easy it is to get frustrated with disfunctioning hardware.
It is a fact that NEO HE has had a lot of incompability issues with asus A8N boards. So it is getting lots of coverage in all forums. Asus happens to be very popular motherboard brand, here in Finland it tops the sales in the biggest netstores. That (over) emphasizes the problem. Try googling for "antec neo he asus" and you will see that the first word link starts with word "warning".
It brings also the people to forums that have had a "normal" DOA psu case. These thing happen to every manufacturer, there have been seasonics with DOA, but if you try to search for info, you won't find much, because the net isn't so full of the seasonic failures as it is of this particular asus-antec case. People actually register to different forums, just to share their part of failures, even if it would fall to the normal acceptable manufacturing process failure losses and have nothing to do with the particular issue NEO HE has had. One out three of my nexus PSUs have been DOA, still I don't condemn the nx-4090 as a crappu PSU because of it, I haven't mentioned in any forums, just like most people just accept that sometimes this sort of things happen.
This asus-antec issue is very concrete, but it is being handled imo very well by antec. I wish we would have the same kind of service here in Finland.
Antec rep has been on forums to give updates on the NEO HE issue. Should he always make a post when a new user posts of their bad experience?
Unfortunately bad reputation sticks well. Intel fanboys still say intel is more stable then amd, because of the issues AMD had back in thunderbird and first athlon XPs, although the problem was more likely with the cheap crappy motherboards and not the processor itself. My 1700+ Palomino was rock stable with my epox board. I never had any bsods or crashes. Still this issue is always brought up when Intel fanboys have a debate with Amd fanboys. Same thing is happening to P150 and NEO HE, people are actually holding back from buying P150 in fear of incombability with their asus board.
This bad rep thing is actually a big shame. Even if TT or silenX would bring a great product to market, people would bash it without giving it a chance to prove itself, because it is universally accepted, atleast in SPCR, that these manufacturers can be bashed just because of their past, without giving them a chance. (I want to see TT Big Typhoon review.)

I would venture (hope) and say that Antec has fully repaired the issue with the latest patch of their PSUs, at least I have read about success stories about NEO HEs with A8N boards.

I'd say that SPCR and it's moderators have no special reason to kiss up to Antec or defend them. It's more likely the opposite, since reviews done in SPCR really make a difference in sales/choises people are making when buying their computers. I think moderators are just being neutral. It would be probably be a different issue, if Antec had handled these defects/incompabilitys badly.

My 0.02 euros.
[color=blue][size=84]Antec Solo case /w Seasonic S-12 430W, Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-SH2, X2 4850e /w Scythe Ninja, 2x2Gb DDR2800, WD Raptor 150GB, 500GB WD GP in Antec MX-1, BenQ G2400W, Logitech diNovo Laser, Logitech z-680[/color][/size]

Rory Buszka
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:58 pm

Post by Rory Buszka » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:15 pm

For me to say I believe that there is a problem with the Antec NeoHE in which (due to a defect), certain configurations cause the antec power supply to malfunction in some way is fine. For me to say that I feel Antec majorly struck out with the NeoHE power supplies, and to call them a "total disaster" is fine. But if, hypothetically, I were to say that "incompatibility" is just blame-shifting by Antec, then that would be libel, since it's a statement of fact, even though I don't know if it's true or not, or though I might somehow know that it is in fact not true. The And even if Antec doesn't win the suit, they've still hit you with plenty of lawyer and legal fees. Even if Antec decides they don't want this sort of discussion going on, they could pick out the most outspoken critic of their NeoHE product line, and then file a frivolous SLAPP, or Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. If the jury decides libel actually occurred, a large cash award would most likely be the outcome. But even if Antec didn't expect the lawsuit to succeed, they could inconvenience that outspoken individual to the point where that individual would be silenced, then that would intimidate other would-be complainers to keep their comments to themselves.

If the power supply is not experiencing a "failure", it is at the very least encountering a "malfunction". It's not like the boards themselves are especially finicky - they run fine with every other power supply (of proper output and compliant with the ATX12V 2.2 standard) that people have cared to try, even including other "high-efficiency" designs. What's making this difficult to pin down is the highly variable nature of the malfunctions, varying from unit to unit.
No one will believe in your dreams until you invest some money.

ASMET Purdue University
Staff Writer|Techgage.com

Aleksi
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:34 pm
Location: Finland -- Folding For SPCR

Post by Aleksi » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:28 pm

Rory Buszka wrote:But if, hypothetically, I were to say that "incompatibility" is just blame-shifting by Antec,
You can say that. It's an opinion / guess / personal presumption until you show some hard data to back it up.

But, if you hypothetically said that... I think some users would hypothetically agree. Hypothetically speaking of course.

But this thread isn't about the singly user's freedom of speech on the internet.
[size=75]Just because I didn't respond to your post doesn't mean you were right. It just means I was speechless as to how to reply to such an idiotic statement

[url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?p=330459][MainRig][/url][url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?p=354320][HTPC][/url][url=http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=18727][Playground][/url][/size]

Post Reply