Info on Seasonic M12 (and more: V8 and new S12 models)

[Tephras]

Thanks.

[DontMakeMeEatU]

So S12e+ or M12?

[dhanson865]

S12 rev 1 and 2 maxed out at 85% claimed effeciency
S12 Energy efficient now claims max 88%
M12 claims max 85%.

So if you have a cramped case (airflow issues due to cabling) or are a neat freak (with or without a window case) then you can get the M12 just to remove unused cables.

If you want the best PS possible in terms of heat, electrical use, noise, etc get a S12 Energy Efficient.

If you can't decide between a M12 500 and a S12E 550 let price do the choosing for you. Expected list prices of M12-500 = $144.99 and S12E-550 somewhere slightly below that.

If you realy want the cheapest TCO or at least lowest electric bill you'll get the S12E 550.

If you want the cheapest up front cost you might end up getting an old S12 380 or 430 on clearance or even at list price and still save a few bucks vs the new guys. (Due to heat sink differences you should almost never consider the 330w version, and due to PCIe connectors varying by S12 revision and wattage you should be very carefull to make sure you get the connectors you need before you order).

It's entirely possible that a sleeved S12-430 would be the lowest TCO for a quiet PC and the S12E-550 would be the lowest TCO for a high end gaming box.

[Ackelind]

This is strange.
Seasonic M12 has been available here in Sweden for a few weeks. Why not in the States?

[krille]

Hurrah!!! I've been waiting so long for this! S12E+ 80PLUS finally arrived it seems!! Yay! This thread made me happy!!

Gotta get me one of those S12 Energy+ 650 80PLUS certified ones, wonder if they changed anything else (except efficiency)? Are the heatsinks the same? Same fan?

Did they have those "soft-mounting rubber cushions" for the fan before? I can't think I've seen it on my good old S12-600's product sheets back in the day (this was before the sleeved revision). Does anyone know?

I hope SPCR gets one of these for review ASAP so we can find how much quieter these run at x watts.

~ Kris

[Pace]

Just bought my 550W S12-Energy+ model yesterday.

First impressions were quite bad... the powersupply wouldn't even boot my computer. Then changed the connector going to my graphics card (AGP) and got it to boot; been happy ever since

The PSU is very quiet even in a nexus breeze case which really isn't the easiest case for the PSU heat-wise.

[sjschwinn]

Just bought my 550W S12-Energy+ model yesterday.

First impressions were quite bad... the powersupply wouldn't even boot my computer. Then changed the connector going to my graphics card (AGP) and got it to boot; been happy ever since

The PSU is very quiet even in a nexus breeze case which really isn't the easiest case for the PSU heat-wise.

Anyone know when these will be available in the US? Any ideas if it will be a wide availability, or who might have them first?

[merlin]

Just bought my 550W S12-Energy+ model yesterday.

First impressions were quite bad... the powersupply wouldn't even boot my computer. Then changed the connector going to my graphics card (AGP) and got it to boot; been happy ever since

The PSU is very quiet even in a nexus breeze case which really isn't the easiest case for the PSU heat-wise.

You actually bring up a really important concern, I'm wondering how likely it'll be to run into minimum amperage issues with seasonic's new psus. I hope we don't see too many motherboard/psu compatability issues with low power systems since that put a huge damper on the neohe...

[EsaT]

This is strange.
Seasonic M12 has been available here in Sweden for a few weeks. Why not in the States?

Same here in Finland, also at least one German shops has M12-models in stock.
Also S12E+ models are available here in Finland.

Funny thing that Seasonic's website doesn't yet list these models...
Speaking of that does anyone even know full specifications for these?
Here's some specs from that Finnish shop.

M12-serie:
+3.3V 24.0A,+5V 30.0A,+12V1 18.0A,+12V2 18.0A, +12V3 18.0A, +12V4 18.0A, -12V 0.8A,+5Vsb 3.0A.
16 x HDD (8 x Sata), 2 x FDD, 20/24-Pin, 2 x PCI-E, Dual CPU 8pin, ATX12V 4-pin

I guess all models might have same 3.3V and 5V values:
http://www.hardwarelogic.com/news/137/A ... 07-27.html
500W: 12V max 38A


S-12E+
+3.3V 24.0A,+5V 30.0A,+12V1 18.0A,+12V2 18.0A, +12V3 18.0A, +12V4 18.0A, -12V 0.8A,+5Vsb 2.0A.
15 x HDD (6 x Sata), 2 x FDD, 20/24-Pin, 2 x PCI-E, Dual CPU 8pin, ATX12V

[Pace]

You actually bring up a really important concern, I'm wondering how likely it'll be to run into minimum amperage issues with seasonic's new psus. I hope we don't see too many motherboard/psu compatability issues with low power systems since that put a huge damper on the neohe...

My computer isn't the lowest power system you could imagine, a Athlon X2@2,7GHz + ATI X850XT. I think that the PSU just required load on certain 12 volt rails in order to boot. Given that it has four of 12V rails, it needed some effort to get the right ones loaded.

[Tephras]

Speaking of that does anyone even know full specifications for these?

Links to the full specs was posted by merlin in the previous page of this thread.

[dhanson865]

The S12 Energy+ and M12 series haven't been tested by SPCR yet but this is the table I'm looking to finish off when they are. Hopefully they will test the lowest wattage of each series and not mix data between two power supplies again.

Code: Select all

Model       Output (W)  65      90      150     200     250     300     400     500     600

S12-330     Efficiency  75.5%   77.9%   80.3%   82.0%   80.9%   79.9%   **
S12-430                 78.3%   80.5%   81.6%   81.8%   80.5%   79.6%   *
S12-500/600             75.1%   78.0%   81.2%   82.0%   81.8%   81.1%   79.0%   79.7%   78.9%
M12-500                 ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%
S12-550E+               ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ??.?%   ***


S12-330  Temp Rise (°C) 4       2       3       7       8       6       **
S12-430                 3       4       5       5       7       8       *
S12-500/600             2       1       3       3       3       5       5       6       7
M12-500                 ?       ?       ?       ?       ?       ?       ?       ?
S12-550E+               ?       ?       ?       ?       ?       ?       ?       ***


S12-330  Noise (dBA@1m) 21      21      21      22      30      35      **
S12-430                 20      20      22      25      29      32      *
S12-500/600             21      21      22      25      28      34      39      40      40
M12-500                 ??      ??      ??      ??      ??      ??      ??      ??
S12-550E+               ??      ??      ??      ??      ??      ??      ??      ***

Both the S12-500 and S12-600 were tested but were merged into one row by taking the worst value instead of averaging. Confusing, but useful none the less.

* S12-430 was not measured at 400W. At 430W it got 75.5% efficiency at 37dBA and a rise of 8°C. The article stated ambient conditions in the test lab were 21°C and 19 dBA SPL.

** S12-330 was also measured at 330W. Ambient conditions during testing were 21°C and 20 dBA, 122V/60Hz. It got 78.3% efficiency at 37dBA and a rise of 8°C.

*** Presumably the S12-550E+ won't be tested at 500W. I would assume data for 550W would be in this footnote instead.

[merlin]

You actually bring up a really important concern, I'm wondering how likely it'll be to run into minimum amperage issues with seasonic's new psus. I hope we don't see too many motherboard/psu compatability issues with low power systems since that put a huge damper on the neohe...

My computer isn't the lowest power system you could imagine, a Athlon X2@2,7GHz + ATI X850XT. I think that the PSU just required load on certain 12 volt rails in order to boot. Given that it has four of 12V rails, it needed some effort to get the right ones loaded.

I think it's a major concern if you actually need a video card to hit the minimum load on the rails, or even that you need to fill up a certain rail. That should not be required for all the integrated video that low power systems will use.

[dhanson865]

I think it's a major concern if you actually need a video card to hit the minimum load on the rails, or even that you need to fill up a certain rail. That should not be required for all the integrated video that low power systems will use.

Code: Select all

Model       Output (W)  65      90      150     200     250     300     400     500     600

S12-430                 78.3%   80.5%   81.6%   81.8%   80.5%   79.6%   *
S12-500/600             75.1%   78.0%   81.2%   82.0%   81.8%   81.1%   79.0%   79.7%   78.9%

Maybe if a 550W power supply won't boot reliably with a minimum load situation you should be buying a 430W power supply instead? Note the increased effeciency below 200W on the cheaper 430W power supply. I understand wanting to have your cake and eat it too, but at least the solution is to buy a cheaper power supply not a more expensive one.

[merlin]

I think it's a major concern if you actually need a video card to hit the minimum load on the rails, or even that you need to fill up a certain rail. That should not be required for all the integrated video that low power systems will use.

Code: Select all

Model       Output (W)  65      90      150     200     250     300     400     500     600

S12-430                 78.3%   80.5%   81.6%   81.8%   80.5%   79.6%   *
S12-500/600             75.1%   78.0%   81.2%   82.0%   81.8%   81.1%   79.0%   79.7%   78.9%

Maybe if a 550W power supply won't boot reliably with a minimum load situation you should be buying a 430W power supply instead? Note the increased effeciency below 200W on the cheaper 430W power supply. I understand wanting to have your cake and eat it too, but at least the solution is to buy a cheaper power supply not a more expensive one.

Actually I thought this problem occured no matter which wattage psu you bought. The bigger issue seemed to relate to just minimum power on high efficiency psus.

[dhanson865]

Maybe so, sorry for the misinformation if I was wrong.

[EsaT]

Here's one review of S12-650E+

http://www.pcstats.com/ArtVNL.cfm?articleid=1995&page=1

12V maximum load is 455W (~38A) so looks much like this is very similar to original S12 models.

[paapaa]

Here's one review of S12-650E+

http://www.pcstats.com/ArtVNL.cfm?articleid=1995&page=1

I think they are mixing efficiency and power factor...

[Pace]

Here's one review of S12-650E+

http://www.pcstats.com/ArtVNL.cfm?articleid=1995&page=1

12V maximum load is 455W (~38A) so looks much like this is very similar to original S12 models.

They've typoed the 12V maximum load; it's 41A on the 550W model and 52A on the 650W model.

[winguy]

In Japan, they got the Seasonic S8 which uses a Sanyo 80mm fan.
http://www.owltech.co.jp/products/power ... S8/S8.html

[rpsgc]

Here's a round-up of 600 and 700W PSU (the S12 Energy+ 650W is one of them).

Somehow I'm highly sceptical that the OCZ had 89% efficiency

[jamesavery22]

Here's a round-up of 600 and 700W PSU (the S12 Energy+ 650W is one of them).

Somehow I'm highly sceptical that the OCZ had 89% efficiency

Hopefully a SPCR review of that OCZ will show the truth.

[flokel]

Why the hell do they test efficiency at full load?

None of our computers needs 600 Watts,
what is the use of 80plus for the home user when efficiency always stays under 80% (or even 70%) at typically low loads (<50Watts DC).

Instead of working on the problem with efficiency on low loads
simply bigger psu's are produced so one can say "ah finally we achieved 80% at 20% load". With this big psu's even the low load of 20% means a usage of more than a 100 Watts (none of my computers needs a 100 Watts at full load)!
Besides psu's are getting more expensive cause "eh you get more watts so you have to pay more!"

[jamesavery22]

Why the hell do they test efficiency at full load?

None of our computers needs 600 Watts,
what is the use of 80plus for the home user when efficiency always stays under 80% (or even 70%) at typically low loads (<50Watts DC).

Instead of working on the problem with efficiency on low loads
simply bigger psu's are produced so one can say "ah finally we achieved 80% at 20% load". With this big psu's even the low load of 20% means a usage of more than a 100 Watts (none of my computers needs a 100 Watts at full load)!
Besides psu's are getting more expensive cause "eh you get more watts so you have to pay more!"

I agree, solely measuring efficiency at full load isn't very smart. It is still a measurement you should know though. There aren't many places that have an extensive test bench for PSU's like SPCR. I tend to take other PSU reviews as guesstimates of how the PSU performs. Always wait for a SPCR review for final word Seasonic needs to hurry up and send SPCR some samples, so does PC Power & Cooling and OCZ


I have to completely disagree with your comment on no one needing a 600w PSU. Dual core + CF/SLI + 3-4 HDs will require 600w pretty quickly. Thats not a rare setup either. Just an expensive one.

[rpsgc]

(...) so does PC Power & Cooling (...)

Somehow I don't think it'd fare well in SPCR's labs

[jaganath]

I have to completely disagree with your comment on no one needing a 600w PSU. Dual core + CF/SLI + 3-4 HDs will require 600w pretty quickly.

C2D is the hot overclocking chip of the moment, sub-100W for all except the most extreme OC; Crossfire X1900XTX =240W, 4 HDDs= 80W. Throw in ~25W for the mobo, 5W for the RAM and 3W for fans, and you have total consumption of 453W, and that is with the most power-sucking equipment imaginable.

[jvrobert]

I have to completely disagree with your comment on no one needing a 600w PSU. Dual core + CF/SLI + 3-4 HDs will require 600w pretty quickly.

C2D is the hot overclocking chip of the moment, sub-100W for all except the most extreme OC; Crossfire X1900XTX =240W, 4 HDDs= 80W. Throw in ~25W for the mobo, 5W for the RAM and 3W for fans, and you have total consumption of 453W, and that is with the most power-sucking equipment imaginable.

I think if you're building high end, 500W is the minimum, though I think the 600W or thereabouts would make sense just for headroom.

You're forgetting that the DX10 cards due out are supposed to be ridiculous power hogs. A single card could conceivably be 200W+ according to the rumors. Pretty pathetic.

I think, however, these power supply manufacturers are in trouble in a year or so. GPU makers are supposed to start focusing on power like Intel/AMD already have. At that point, it'll be back to a 350W power supply being enough for almost any machine.

[EsaT]

Here's a round-up of 600 and 700W PSU (the S12 Energy+ 650W is one of them).

Somehow I'm highly sceptical that the OCZ had 89% efficiency

There's definitely something weird in results...
But not so much in that efficiency but between results of OCZ and Fortron because those are identical (even same model number in PCB basing to pictures in various reviews) except different colour and blue led fan in OCZ.

I've seen some other reviews in which OCZ has achieved 88-89% efficiency and stayed well above 85% at near full loads.
Friend is studying electrical engineering in university and he kept near 90% efficiency well possible when I told him about efficiency results of one earlier review of OCZ.

At least FSP has been really going for efficiency while designing those. X-Bit lab's review stated this:
In most “ordinaryâ€

[jaganath]

Actually HDs consume little over 10W at max but at startup they can take >30W peak. Now of course good PSU can output more than sticker says as peak so I guess that's even.

Also bear in mind the GPU's will not be going 100% at startup, so a little higher spin-up load from the HDD's is not a problem. I stick by my original estimate.

[flokel]

I have to completely disagree with your comment on no one needing a 600w PSU. Dual core + CF/SLI + 3-4 HDs will require 600w pretty quickly. Thats not a rare setup either. Just an expensive one.

In german magazine c't they tested "high power" psus and
measured they power usage with dual cores cpu and two grafic cards:
the highest was ~ 343Watt AC(!)

Building a pc that uses more than 300 Watts is simply stupid in terms of costs/heat/noise.
Even with a dual core and sli you can stay easily under 200Watt thanks to efficient hardware like conroe/a64 ee cpu and 7600/7900GT gpu.