Info on Seasonic M12 (and more: V8 and new S12 models)

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:01 am

merlin wrote:I'm rather confused. There's plenty of PSU's out there that will do what you ask and some are even Seasonic OEM such as the Antec Truepower Trio, Antec NeoHE and Corsair 620W.

Those Antecs are really made by Seasonic using their design, biggest difference is that they're made to (cheaper) one layer PCB and have cheaper components (capacitors, MOSFETs etc.)
In Corsairs they use same 105C ("industrial") graded capacitors than in own brand but from rest of components that doesn't yet tell anything.

Tibors wrote:Don't forget that for Seasonic the retail market is not that important. The majority of there sales are made in the OEM world.

Yep, because of markets in "brand" computers and other ready assembled PCs for example Intel actually sells about as much graphic chips as ATI and nVidia combined.

Bursk · Post by **Bursk** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:18 am

EsaT wrote:Actually those have been in stock for well over week in here:
http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/def ... ath=30_797

They have very good service so if anyone from Europe needs some case accessories/coolers/PSUs their site is worth of checking. (also shipping costs are very reasonable)

EsaT, do you know of any way that a non-German speaker could order from that site? I'd really like to buy a Seasonic S12-550 Energy Plus Series 80-Plus 550 Watt, and I need it soon so don't want to wait for them to hit the UK.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:37 am

merlin wrote:I'm rather confused. There's plenty of PSU's out there that will do what you ask and some are even Seasonic OEM such as the Antec Truepower Trio, Antec NeoHE and Corsair 620W.

EsaT wrote:Those Antecs are really made by Seasonic using their design, biggest difference is that they're made to (cheaper) one layer PCB and have cheaper components (capacitors, MOSFETs etc.)
In Corsairs they use same 105C ("industrial") graded capacitors than in own brand but from rest of components that doesn't yet tell anything.

That's really good information to note. I didn't know there were some cheaper aspects to the Antec PSU's. I'm probably going to get a M12 myself since I'm in no rush for a new PSU.

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:24 pm

Bursk wrote:EsaT, do you know of any way that a non-German speaker could order from that site? I'd really like to buy a Seasonic S12-550 Energy Plus Series 80-Plus 550 Watt, and I need it soon so don't want to wait for them to hit the UK.

I think it's easiest to create account first (registriert under Login) and I would assume it to be mandatory in every case when ordering.

Just use babelfish for translating meanings of fields which can't be deducted from German word.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
notwendige Eingabe=required field
Also you might want to select "nicht abonniert" for newsletter.

After you have account and are logged in just go to product's page where you give amount of product you want to order (if more than one) and press "in den warenkorb".
Text "lagernd" just above button tells that item is in stock.

In shopping basket (warenkorb) you can change amount of items by changing number in front of name and pressing "Aktualisieren" refreshes basket. Putting mark to "Entfernen" removes item after refreshed.

"Weiter enkaufen" takes back to front page for continuing and meaning on Kasse should be clear.
"AGB's bestÃ¤tigen" is that standard accepting terms.
Under that there's box for comments and such, English language would go well in it.

"Versandoptionen" gives possible delivery options.
"Adresse Ã¤ndern" is for changing addresses.
(Lieferanschrift is shipping address, Rechnungsanschrift billing address, later is quite unrelevant)

As payment method they accept advance payment using bank/wire transfer for those ones outside Germany
Weiter means always "forward" so it takes to next from and IIRC that's used for accepting order.

After you have accepted order you'll get e-mail which first tells your customer number and order number. After that comes bank data.
You'll be needing IBAN account number and BIC (/SWIFT) code which alone would be enough for directing transfer to right bank account but bank's system propably requires at least writing receiver's name. (I have always written also address)
From line "Verwendungszweck" you'll find string with order number and your name which is for message field as reference for shop. (bank's system propably won't even accept quotation marks in message field so don't put those in there)

After that comes list of items with delivery costs and total price as last.

It takes about 3-4 bank days for them to receiver payment (at least from here using EU/Euro transfer), after which they ship order and send you email with tracking number, literally packet number in German.
Packet's shipping time might be about half week excluding weekend. (to Finland it's always about week)

BTW, make sure you have extra power cable, PSU comes with standard European schuko plug.

If you have anything else I'll check thread at about 0700Z.

PS. Not that I would have studied even basics of German or would know many German words.

EDIT:
Alternate.EU would have that PSU little cheaper. They also use advance payment, shipping costs are again higher so total might be quite near. (bought 2 4GB CF cards from them) While their site being in English might hint otherwise I've gotten better and faster service from Caseking. (in English)

Bursk · Post by **Bursk** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:08 pm

Thanks for the detailed response, EsaT.

I'll give your post a good read tomorrow, when I get a chance.

vitaminc · Post by **vitaminc** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:27 pm

Do you know if alternate.EU ship to United States? I cbf waiting for M12 here now. =.=

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:19 pm

vitaminc wrote:Do you know if alternate.EU ship to United States? I cbf waiting for M12 here now. =.=

I doubt it. But why don't you just ask it?

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:49 pm

vitaminc wrote:Do you know if alternate.EU ship to United States? I cbf waiting for M12 here now. =.=

I think very few European shops sell to outside EU because then there's all kind paper war with bureaucracy forms and customs. (except few European non-EU countries with customs/trade treaties, like Norway)

Also you might want to remember that Euro is now about 1.25 USDs when looking prices. (which always include VAT unless otherwise told)

What I checked none of shops selling new Seasonics sell outside EU, or at least they don't mention such.
http://www.geizhals.at/eu/?cat=gehps
(Energy Plus models are just 550 and 650W S12s in there)

Poodle · Post by **Poodle** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:42 pm

I ordered the M12 700W (I want the headroom for planned dual cpu) and I will have it on mon-tue.

It looks really sweet and hopefully it will be something of a life companion

My c2d stuff will arrive shortly as well...

stormy · Post by **stormy** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:52 am

Hi,

Could someone who has managed to get a M12 600W please measure their ATX12v and main ATX power cables from PSU to back of connector?

I have a P180 case with an ASRock mobo and the ATX12v connector is right at the top right of the board, my existing Enermax PSU reaches great but its only a 430W supply and am looking to go either for an M12 600 or 700 maybe.

Cheers muchly,

Mike

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:52 am

Fixed cables are about 50cm/20" long, maybe couple cm/1" longer, hard to say when they have been folded tightly inside packet and don't want to stay straight yet.

stormy · Post by **stormy** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:47 am

Thanks for that, I hope thats long enough for my P180 and ASRock mobo. I'll have a look.

Thanks again,

Mike

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:59 am

stormy wrote:Thanks for that, I hope thats long enough for my P180 and ASRock mobo. I'll have a look.

Using motherboard's height as measure those should reach, at least if ATX 12V connector of mobo is near edge.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... p?t=116253

stormy · Post by **stormy** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:43 am

Thanks again, I hope so. Looking at the picture of my motherboard:

You can see the ATX12V connector is right at the upper corner, at the moment with my enermax PSU the ATX12V cable runs under the first PCI slot and up under the my PCI and PCIe cards along the left hand side. (the top of the picture).

Cheers,

Mike

Ultimatetone · Post by **Ultimatetone** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:02 am

-
UPDATE -

SEASONIC USA just received a shipment yesterday of the S12-Energy+ series!

Backorders will be 'shipping out to' distributors (i.e. new egg, ma labs, and fry's electronics) today.

PLEASE NOTE -

Neither newegg, ma labs, nor Fry's have any of the S12-Energy+ series listed on their respective websites at this time.

- Ultimatetone

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:00 am

For main ATX power connector it's sure case, it has to routed directly

How long is ATX12V cable in your Enermax?
Looking to pic in previous post I would estimate getting hidden cable to reach up to motherboard's edge taking something like 45cm.
You could use some string for measuring length required for hiding cable behind motherboard.

vitaminc · Post by **vitaminc** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:20 am

Ultimatetone wrote:-
UPDATE -

SEASONIC USA just received a shipment yesterday of the S12-Energy+ series!

Backorders will be 'shipping out to' distributors (i.e. new egg, ma labs, and fry's electronics) today.

PLEASE NOTE -

Neither newegg, ma labs, nor Fry's have any of the S12-Energy+ series listed on their respective websites at this time.

- Ultimatetone

how about M12? any words?

stormy · Post by **stormy** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:20 pm

EsaT wrote:For main ATX power connector it's sure case, it has to routed directly

How long is ATX12V cable in your Enermax?
.

Hi,

I think you misunderstood, its probably the way I typed it. The ATX12V lead does not go *under* the motherboard, it is on the surface of the motherboard, I just route it under the PCI/PCie cards themselves. Between the plastic PCI slots and the metal case edge.

The ATX12V cable is about 26-27" on the Enermax. As for the ATX power connector, It can route directly, but has to go around a X1900XT PCIe card. Hmmm.

Still not 100% sure its going to work, I may have to buy some extenders.

Cheers,

Mike

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:54 pm

These M12s couldn't come any sooner. Is it safe to say we'll see them on sale this weekend?

stoffer · Post by **stoffer** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:34 pm

Yeti wrote:These M12s couldn't come any sooner. Is it safe to say we'll see them on sale this weekend?

They have been on sale here in Denmark for about a week now.

cwebb04 · Post by **cwebb04** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:27 am

Already available today:

Case-Mods

Perhaps wait until next week for the price to come down?[/url]

vitaminc · Post by **vitaminc** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:38 pm

f*ck it
going to order now and hope that they have it in stock.

Poodle · Post by **Poodle** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:30 am

I got my m12 700w the other day. It's a real looker and fits nicely in the p180 without any problems at all.. I glad to see it also comes as RoHS.

About voltages. These however makes me wonder a bit.

In idle Pc-probe shows:

+3,3 = 3,41-3,42V

+5 = 5,09-5,14V

+12 = 12,36-12,57V

Aren't these a bit high?

And the vcore goes from 1,14-1,3V in idle when Eist is turned off in bios.
However in bios under hardware monitor it's quite stable around 1,3V.

I havn't had intel in a while so I don't understand all the bios stuff yet. Is it faulty or is it the motherboard or some setting i missed?

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:53 am

Poodle wrote:m12 700w
In idle Pc-probe shows:
+3,3 = 3,41-3,42V
+5 = 5,09-5,14V
+12 = 12,36-12,57V

Aren't these a bit high?

Code: Select all

Table 2. DC Output Voltage Regulation ATX12V v2.01
Output     Range     Min.   Nom.   Max. Unit
+12V1DC     Â±5%    +11.40 +12.00 +12.60 Volts
+12V2DC (1) Â±5%    +11.40 +12.00 +12.60 Volts
+5VDC       Â±5%     +4.75  +5.00  +5.25 Volts
+3.3VDC (2) Â±5%     +3.14  +3.30  +3.47 Volts
-12VDC     Â±10%    -10.80 -12.00 -13.20 Volts
+5VSB       Â±5%     +4.75  +5.00  +5.25 Volts
(1) At +12 VDC peak loading, regulation at the +12 VDC output can go to Â± 10%.
(2) Voltage tolerance is required at main connector and S-ATA connector (if used).

All of those numbers are within an acceptable range though the make me wonder:

Did you buy the right power supply? As in will you ever need 700w?

If you plan to use 4 video cards or even 2 very high power video cards you might need it.

If you don't have much of a load on the system you might see the readings a little high and as you add load they might drop a bit. In an ideal world they wouldn't but it is a design issue that has to be taken into account.

For example see http://www.legitreviews.com/article/368/1/ where the 12v rail went from 12.04v down to 11.46v under load. Now I don't expect to see that great of a drop in a Seasonic PS, but then I've never tested a M12 700.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/348/12/ shows more rail data in high load systems.

http://www.hardwarelogic.com/news/137/A ... 07-27.html shows an M12-500

Your exact system configuration and usage patterns will affect the voltage reported on each rail. I'd be curious to know your low wattage use at idle as reported by the UPS.

If you will be using enough video cards, dual or quad core CPUs, and Hard drives to eventually need the extra power be happy that your current PS is on the high side.

If you (as in other readers on SPCR) will never need the extra juice consider looking at the M12 500 or the S12 E+ 550 instead of looking at the 700W beasts...

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:29 am

Poodle wrote:In idle Pc-probe shows...

And the vcore goes from 1,14-1,3V in idle when Eist is turned off in bios.
However in bios under hardware monitor it's quite stable around 1,3V.

It's completely normal that different programs tell different opinions, only comparable measurement is that with DMM.
I thing in XS-forums they keep readings in BIOS more reliable than those given by most programs but they always use DMM for getting comparable results.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:15 am

Is this the m12 700 or just something very similar? www.80plus.org/longpath/Seasonic_SS-700HM_700W_80PLUS_Report.pdf

Notice the power drop on the 12v rail between the 20% load and 100% load. And that test didn't push the 12v rails to their limits.

Is this the S12 Energy+ 550 or just something very similar? www.80plus.org/longpath/Seasonic_SS-550HT_550W_80PLUS_Report.pdf

Also a noticable drop on the 12v rails between 20% and 100% load.

Note it isn't a problem at all to see these sorts of drops. But it can be a noticable factor if you buy too high end a power supply as your fan voltages may be higher on a 700w PS at 20% load than they would be on a 430w PS at 30% load. Now that is splitting hairs as the voltage difference might only be a couple of tenths and it's only an issue if you aren't using variable speed fans (motherboard fan control, external fan control, etc).

Of course sample variability, cabling choices (modular, adapters, etc), and your systems other components could overshadow that whole concept but then I like to overanalyze stuff...

sjschwinn · Post by **sjschwinn** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:59 am

M12 and S12E+ now at NewEgg

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi ... ctory=1697

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:10 am

dhanson865 wrote:Is this the m12 700 or just something very similar? www.80plus.org/longpath/Seasonic_SS-700HM_700W_80PLUS_Report.pdf

Notice the power drop on the 12v rail between the 20% load and 100% load. And that test didn't push the 12v rails to their limits.

Is this the S12 Energy+ 550 or just something very similar? www.80plus.org/longpath/Seasonic_SS-550HT_550W_80PLUS_Report.pdf

Also a noticable drop on the 12v rails between 20% and 100% load.

Note it isn't a problem at all to see these sorts of drops. But it can be a noticable factor if you buy too high end a power supply as your fan voltages may be higher on a 700w PS at 20% load than they would be on a 430w PS at 30% load. Now that is splitting hairs as the voltage difference might only be a couple of tenths and it's only an issue if you aren't using variable speed fans (motherboard fan control, external fan control, etc).

Of course sample variability, cabling choices (modular, adapters, etc), and your systems other components could overshadow that whole concept but then I like to overanalyze stuff...

From Seasonic Specs I've seen, those are the model numbers for the M12 and S12. I don't see any major issue with the voltage drops, they're still well within a 3% tolerance and should never cause a problem with a system. I'm not even sure how that would really affect fans, any fan can handle a standard tolerance of voltage as well. Definitely splitting hairs there imho. What is truly awesome is confirmation that the M12 efficiency is almost as good as the S12 Energy Plus. The difference is about 1% it seems. I'm in line for the M12-500, definitely don't need more power, but the modular cabling would cut back clutter a lot.

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:28 am

dhanson865 wrote:Is this the m12 700 or just something very similar? www.80plus.org/longpath/Seasonic_SS-700HM_700W_80PLUS_Report.pdf

Notice the power drop on the 12v rail between the 20% load and 100% load. And that test didn't push the 12v rails to their limits.

Is this the S12 Energy+ 550 or just something very similar? www.80plus.org/longpath/Seasonic_SS-550HT_550W_80PLUS_Report.pdf

Also a noticable drop on the 12v rails between 20% and 100% load.

Note it isn't a problem at all to see these sorts of drops.

That kind drops are possible (and will happen) on every PSU, only way for preventing that would be that PSU would monitor voltage of output at connector and then increase voltage to keep it in 12V but that would again rise voltage in those connectors with light loads.
And in fact they loaded 12V rails up to 85% of total maximum so with even load distribution you can't get really much more of voltage drop.

Remember: U=IR
So with 10A current even 0.1ohm resistance is going to cause 1V drop. (and drop stays in one tenths of that)

Also they took about 100% of rated output and voltage drops of all rails stayed very linear which tells that PSU itself isn't behind drops but laws of physics. (unfortunately no room temperature superconductors yet)
Apparently one coming PSU line of OCZ has in fact slightly higher voltage ratings so that rails would stay on official values despite of transfer losses.

Those quite much prove that both M12 and S12 E+ models have about as similar efficiency it can be despite of Seasonic giving 85% for M12 and 88% for S12E+.

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:58 am

EsaT wrote:Apparently one coming PSU line of OCZ has in fact slightly higher voltage ratings so that rails would stay on official values despite of transfer losses.

If you mine the data for past SPCR reviews, you'll find that many power supplies already behave in this manner. I think OCZ has just found a new way of marketing...

Info on Seasonic M12 (and more: V8 and new S12 models)

available today

NewEgg's got 'em