Will a Seasonic S12 430 last? Do I need it?

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee, Devonavar

Post Reply
StringCheesian
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 pm

Will a Seasonic S12 430 last? Do I need it?

Post by StringCheesian » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:43 pm

I'm on such a tight budget that earlier I would have said I couldn't afford even $50 for a PS. But then I read some power supply advice and reviews...

So as long as I'm paying more for a decent PS, I might as well buy a quiet one - I'm tired of the jet engine (literally, people call my PC that) I'm sitting next to.

I've been reading posts here, and although the Seasonic S12 430 (like this one) seems generally well liked, but I also see horror stories about whines and buzzes.

I'd buy a cheaper Antec NeoHE, but 41% said it failed - yikes! At least people don't complain about the Seasonic failing, right?

I'll probably get a ~$150 Athlon X2 or Intel E4x00, ~$125 video card, ~$90 motherboard, the best 1G DDR2 that ~$100 can buy, and reuse old parts for everything else. I'll probably need this system to work for 5 years, and power supplies degrade over time right? I will be stressing the system by compiling source code with GCC and playing games (C&C 3), both on a daily basis. I won't overclock, at least not a lot anyway - I don't want to decrease the hardware's lifespan.

I want something perfectly reliable for at least 5 years. This won't be a media center and I'm not an audiophile, ie I'm not that sensitive to a little subtle noise - I just don't want another jet engine.

What should I buy? Is the Seasonic S12 430 a good choice for me? Would something cheaper be good enough?

NeilBlanchard
Moderator
Posts: 7681
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
Contact:

Post by NeilBlanchard » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:12 pm

Greetings & welcome to SPCR!

You could always get a Fortron Source "Green" PSU:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817104031

>80% efficiency, a quiet 120mm fan, ~$40 including shipping...what's not to like? SPCR has reviewed the 400watt version: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article280-page1.html, and I have used the 300watt version in a machine similar to yours (Athlon 64 3200+, mid-line video card, 1GB RAM, two optical drives, 4 HD's. It was very quiet and stable.

StringCheesian
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 pm

Post by StringCheesian » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:40 pm

Thanks :)

Ok, that Fortron looks good. But the higher watt versions of it are in tier 3 on xtremesystems.org power supply rankings. Is that ranking any good? Should I try to stay at tier 2?

EDIT: Wow, return/failure rate of 0.7% with Fortron

NeilBlanchard
Moderator
Posts: 7681
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
Contact:

Post by NeilBlanchard » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:51 pm

Hello,

What are the spec's on your system? I'll bet a 300watt PS would be plenty. (Check the thread called "How much can a 300watt PSU run?")

StringCheesian
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 pm

Post by StringCheesian » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:01 pm

Will use it with old system for a while:
Athlon XP 3200+
Abit nForce 2 motherboard
2x 512MB PC3200 CL3 ram
nVidia GeForce FX 5700
SoundBlaster Live 5.1
7200 rpm PATA HD
old sony CD burner

My new specs might be:
Athlon X2 3800+ 65W
Abit/Asus nForce 5x0 motherboard
2x 512MB PC4200/5300 CL4
nVidia GeForce 7600GS (or possibly 7600GT on rebate)
same old HD, CD, and sound

CPU intensive stuff like compiling with GCC. I'm also going to play C&C 3 when it's released.

Case is probably poorly ventilated - only 1 8cm fan in back, I leave the cover off.

Someone in the 300W thread is running a similar system with a 330W Seasonic S12. But they aren't all saying how often their system crashes... mine NEVER does and I want to keep it that way.

fabre
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Vancouver

Post by fabre » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:28 pm

StringCheesian wrote:Someone in the 300W thread is running a similar system with a 330W Seasonic S12. But they aren't all saying how often their system crashes... mine NEVER does and I want to keep it that way.
Hey that's me :)

Can't really offer a straight answer regarding crashes, my system crash a lot but I am sure it's not related to the psu, I actually upgraded to a 430 and it still crashes as much. I will be changing the motherboard soon and put back the 330w, hopefully system will be crash free.

this PSU calculator
should give you an idea of what you need.

Imo you really don't need more than 300W, unlike your X2 my cpu is a 89w and my video card also use more watts than a 7600gs or gt.

StringCheesian
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 pm

Post by StringCheesian » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:51 pm

Hi fabre, thanks.

I tried the PSU calculator. With the new specs I listed above, "Surge Compensation" at 10%, and "Capacitor Aging:" at 25% (that should last me 5 years, right?) I get 351 watts. I put in a USB device (have a gamepad), SATA disk (might get one someday), and DRD-RW (ditto).

EDIT: and 327 watt for my current system, with which I'll be testing the PS until I buy the new parts.

jaganath
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Location: UK

Post by jaganath » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:02 am

StringCheesian wrote:Hi fabre, thanks.

I tried the PSU calculator. With the new specs I listed above, "Surge Compensation" at 10%, and "Capacitor Aging:" at 25% (that should last me 5 years, right?) I get 351 watts. I put in a USB device (have a gamepad), SATA disk (might get one someday), and DRD-RW (ditto).

EDIT: and 327 watt for my current system, with which I'll be testing the PS until I buy the new parts.
Those are both massive overestimates. The two systems you detailed above barely break 100W.
I'll probably need this system to work for 5 years, and power supplies degrade over time right?
As long as your ambient temps aren't like 40C, and you don't run the PSU at its maximum capacity for extended periods (which you won't be anywhere near with either of your rigs) then the PSU will easily last 5 years. The S12-330 is adequate for your needs as you are on a budget.

EsaT
Posts: 473
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:53 am
Location: 61.6° N, 29.5° E - Finland

Post by EsaT » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:22 am

StringCheesian wrote:Ok, that Fortron looks good. But the higher watt versions of it are in tier 3 on xtremesystems.org power supply rankings. Is that ranking any good? Should I try to stay at tier 2?
Generally good but they have overdose of "brand blindness"
Tier 1 Brands
PCP&C Silencer >610
...
Tier 2 Brands
Seasonic M12
Seasonic Energy Plus
Both are with same Seasonic internals...

fabre wrote:this PSU calculator
should give you an idea of what you need.
That's BS(U) calculator.

This should give much more realistic values:
http://web.aanet.com.au/SnooP/psucalc.php


Also if electrolytic capacitors would be so prone to aging/drying of electrolyte like some claim there would damn lot of electric devices failing because they're used in practically all electronics. So at least most of them aren't so prone to that unless they're abused (heat/overvoltage) or substandard quality.
But long storing can in fact degrade/destroy them through other process, loss of aluminum oxide. (which can be rebuilt... actually normal leakage current during use constantly "rebuilts" oxide layer)

StringCheesian
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 pm

Post by StringCheesian » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:12 am

Interesting. Thanks, jaganath and EsaT.
EsaT wrote:This should give much more realistic values:
http://web.aanet.com.au/SnooP/psucalc.php
Recommended for generic brand: 407 w
Recommended for decent brand: 229 w

Woah, is it really true that I could be running 2 instances of Prime95, downing a torrent, burning a DVD, copying a huge file between HDs, playing an MP3, and running a very intensively 3D screensaver all at the same time and demand on the PS still wouldn't so much as briefly spike over 229W?

A 65W CPU + a 67W (according to Tech ARP) GeForce 7600GT is already a theoretical max power draw of 133W. Is it realistic for the rest of the PC to require only 96W at max?

burebista
Posts: 402
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:05 am
Location: Romania

Post by burebista » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:43 am

Measured with a Kill-A-Watt device:

Configuration:

CPU: AM2 X2 3800+
MB: ABIT KN9
GPU: BFG 7900GS OC
MEM: Corsair VS1GBKIT667D2
HDD: WD 2500KS
DVD-RW: LG H10N
PSU: Seasonic M-12 500
CASE: SLK3000B with TriCool on low

Frequency and voltages:

Idle/medium load CPU 800 MHz Vcore 0.900V, GPU 250/660
Full-load CPU 2GHz Vcore 1.125V, GPU 540/660

Power off-----------------------6W
Boot--------------------------124W peak
Idle----------------------------67W
Watching a movie----------71W
SPi-----------------------------93W peak
S&M CPU Test--------------108W peak
ATITool 3D View-----------118W peak
S&M + rthdribl--------------128W
S&M Power Supply test---135W peak
PFC between 0.93 si 0.98
TFT Iiyama ProLite E1900S-B--40W
APC Smart-UPS 420----------25W

So in full-load at 80% efficiency for M-12 500 my computer needs only 108W.

StringCheesian
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 pm

Post by StringCheesian » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:06 am

Thank you burebista.

This is amazing. Somebody should pester the people who run the PSU calculator until they correct it, because A LOT of people are using it as a definitive reference. Seriously, it gets linked to on most PC hardware forums I've found.

On the custom system builders forums I've been lurking at (mostly Tom's Hardware Forumz), every time somebody asks everyone to critique their choice of components the PS is always at least 350-400w, and usually more like 450-500w no matter how low end the other parts.

Like this one - the guy lists parts that should require about as much as burebista's and a 450w Antec SmartPower 2.0, and a responder says "Your really pushing that psu, it'll work, but i would avoid heavy gaming..." !!!

Could they be assuming the hardware will be heavily overclocked? How can wattage requirements be so inflated everywhere?

EsaT
Posts: 473
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:53 am
Location: 61.6° N, 29.5° E - Finland

Post by EsaT » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:45 am

StringCheesian wrote: A 65W CPU + a 67W (according to Tech ARP) GeForce 7600GT is already a theoretical max power draw of 133W.
36W

StringCheesian wrote:How can wattage requirements be so inflated everywhere?
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
-Bertrand Russell

Also remember that 99% of PSU reviews are wrong, that's what allows existence of junk quality BSUs with "100%" overrated specs.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/410

jaganath
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Location: UK

Post by jaganath » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:35 am

How can wattage requirements be so inflated everywhere?
Chronic overinflation of PC power requirements is an endemic problem in the consumer IT industry; this is in part caused by the existence of poor quality PSUs that cannot deliver their rated power, so you see people recommending 400W PSUs for a 100W PC. The thread in this forum "How much will a 300W power supply run?" shows that only people using the most power-hungry graphics cards (eg 8800GTX) and CPUs (eg QX6700) require any more than that.

StringCheesian
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 pm

Post by StringCheesian » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:37 am

I wonder how we can change all that... would enough people posting links to better info make a difference?

BTW: Thanks everyone for setting me straight. You've saved me 25-40 dollars. I think I'll probably buy either that Fortron 300 or the Seasonic 330.

student
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:41 pm

Post by student » Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:21 am

If anything, I think people underestimate system power use and wattage requirements. I recommend that with your system you use a 2000KW PSU.

http://www.bowerspower.com/pdfs/XS2000U.PDF

You will have more than enough power, even after 5 years. I would watch it carefully though. Jaganath is likely to comandeer such a PSU and squirrel it away in his basement.

jaganath
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Location: UK

Post by jaganath » Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:39 am

I would watch it carefully though. Jaganath is likely to comandeer such a PSU and squirrel it away in his basement.
Nah, it's OK, I've got one of these on back-order, I think I'll use it to power my lawnmower.

student
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:41 pm

Post by student » Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:00 pm

Wha wha wee wha! I LIKE!

Your garden's pretty big then?

autoboy
Posts: 1008
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:10 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Post by autoboy » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:20 pm

If you are really on a budget there are also some other PSUs that can be found on special. The Antec Earthwatts is a rebadged NeoHE and I saw them for $35-40, the truepower is not bad if noise is not a big concern (mine is not that loud. a Zalman VF700 is louder at 5V), and the NeoHE has been fixed and should work properly.

I ran my gaming rig with a X850xt and athlon 3500+ on a seasonic super silencer 300 with only 18A on the 12V line. The s12 330 has 22A. I now run my server on it. I added 4 PCI cards and 4 harddrives but I took out the x850xt for a Geforce 5200

dms936
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:30 pm
Location: Washington, DC
Contact:

Scythe that im going to praise

Post by dms936 » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:21 pm

I just bought one of these off newegg for 60 bucks and its pretty decent, quiet at low loads so far

viewtopic.php?t=37680

Post Reply