Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

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dan
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Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by dan » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:47 pm

Hello,
for engineers here, I've heard that early PSU from the 80's were like 40% efficient in AC-DC efficiency, waste is heat.

Now, I hear in 2011
Super Flower first-to-market 80 Plus Platinum modular PSU which is AC/DC 92% claimed, across a variety of loads.

What improvements occurred in PSU to get from 40% to 92% and is there still room for improvement? What would have to happen to get PSU say 99% efficient?

Ksanderash
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by Ksanderash » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:33 am

I think this article will be of interest for you.

There are also great Focus TI resources, have a look yourself.

dan
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by dan » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:22 am

Ksanderash wrote:I think this article will be of interest for you.

There are also great Focus TI resources, have a look yourself.
it does, I've wondered why early PSU were like 40% efficient and now 90% and what took so long to get from 40 to 90, and whether it can grow from 90 to 99%

Ksanderash
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by Ksanderash » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:21 pm

First, the efficiency was not so important in those days, so not many people that might be thinking of circuit solutions were involved in this area -- results in bad schematics. Secondly, there was no good component base -- no high frequency semiconductors, ferrite inductors, capacitors. What can you build without good components?

And about 98-99% -- such electricity converter already exists, and it is kinda old, but... ))

scdr
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by scdr » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:22 am

Consider the economics -
The IBM PC had a 65watt power supply. I don't know the efficiency of it, but
just suppose it was 50% efficient (wasted up to 30watts maximum).
Times the number of IBM PCs, times the cost of electricity.
For a $2000 machine (in 198x dollars) .

(There were an estimated 2 million personal computers in US in 1985)

Today many computers have 300 watt supplies (and plenty with much higher). (at 50% efficiency would waste, 150 watts max, at 80% efficiency wastes 120 max, at 90% wastes 30 watts)
Multiply by the hundreds of millions of PCs across the US (over 1 billion worldwide).
And the cost of electricity hasn't gone down like the price of the machine.
For a machine that costs, say, $500 (in 2010 dollars, which would be something like $200 198x dollars - given that this is almost two doubling times since then)

Of course the above waste figures are max, and not typical use/idle figures.

As hardware costs drop, and number of computers increase, electricity costs become ever more significant proportion of cost of computing.

dan
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by dan » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:02 am

SCDR Ksanderash

thanks. Once PSU reach a threshold of say 95% AC-DC do they still need to be fan cooled ?
Is it possible for there to be a commericial PSU for say $70 to be 95%+ effficient?

Ksanderash
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by Ksanderash » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:19 am

dan wrote:Once PSU reach a threshold of say 95% AC-DC do they still need to be fan cooled ?
It depends on the withdrawing power (how much you are taking from PSU). E.g. big interregional transformers (ore ones at hydropower plants) supplying hundred kilovolts lines have the efficiency of 99-99,5%, but that 1% leftover results in several megawatt(!) energy loss, just beacause of the gigawatt energy amount that transformer should transfer through himself to consumer.

There are a lot of passive cooled ATX PSU on the market, that don't have their own active cooling.
Is it possible for there to be a commericial PSU for say $70 to be 95%+ effficient?
Sure, why not. Maybe next year, 2012.

dan
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by dan » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:21 am

Ksanderash wrote:
dan wrote:Once PSU reach a threshold of say 95% AC-DC do they still need to be fan cooled ?
It depends on the withdrawing power (how much you are taking from PSU). E.g. big interregional transformers (ore ones at hydropower plants) supplying hundred kilovolts lines have the efficiency of 99-99,5%, but that 1% leftover results in several megawatt(!) energy loss, just beacause of the gigawatt energy amount that transformer should transfer through himself to consumer.

There are a lot of passive cooled ATX PSU on the market, that don't have their own active cooling.
Is it possible for there to be a commericial PSU for say $70 to be 95%+ effficient?
Sure, why not. Maybe next year, 2012.
How is it a no-named Chinese PSU can make someting Seasonic Nexus Corsair Antec cannot?

http://www.techpowerup.com/139065/Super ... r-PSU.html

Super Flower Intros First-to-Market 80 Plus Platinum Modular PSU
PSU OEM Super Flower became the first to market an 80 Plus Platinum certified modular power supply unit (PSU), the SF-550P14PE. An 80 Plus Platinum certified PSU delivers power with 92% of typical efficiency. Further, its fan controller is programmed to run the fan only if the internal temperatures cross 65~70°C. If temperatures are below that, the fan stays off. The company displayed a 550W model, a 650W model (SF-650P14PE) is also in the works.

The PSU makes use of a single 12V rail design, with a single 45.5A rail. The PSU is ATX v2.3 & EPS12V v2.92 compliant, and features modular cabling. The 24-pin ATX, 4+4 pin EPS, and two PCI-E (6 pin and 8 pin) are fixed, two additional PCI-E power connectors (6 pin and 8 pin) can be connected, apart from a number of SATA, Molex, and Floppy connectors. Key connectors such as PCI-E have REMI-cores to reduce EMI. The company has just started marketing these in Eastern markets, it remains to be seen when and if these will make it to Europe and US.

Eugene
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by Eugene » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:37 am

SuperFlower isn't a no-name Chinese brand. They are a fairly substantial OEM currently making PSUs for NZXT, Kingwin, XION, AZZA, etc.

dan
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by dan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:00 am

Eugene wrote:SuperFlower isn't a no-name Chinese brand. They are a fairly substantial OEM currently making PSUs for NZXT, Kingwin, XION, AZZA, etc.
newegg doesn't sell superflower 80 Plus Platinum Modular PSU :(

why don't more expensive us brands like seasonic offer 80 Plus Platinum Modular PSU?

Ksanderash
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Re: Question about improving AC/DC efficiency

Post by Ksanderash » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:09 pm

dan wrote:Super Flower Intros First-to-Market 80 Plus Platinum Modular PSU
Well, it's a marketeers trick mainly, because the first who got 80 Plus Platinum badge was FSP450-60PTM actually.

I don't realy know if you can find FSP at e-stores yet... but it looks like more Platinum PSUs to be come shortly.

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