Is Seasonic S12II still a good option?

[developer1]

I'm willing to get a new PSU. I had asked on this thread about changing my current PSU's fan because it has allways been noisy, but I've decided to replace the whole unit

At first, I was convinced to buy a Seasonic S12II-520w after reading SPCR review of the 380w model, but after doing more research I'm having second thoughts..

This is my setup:

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 Black Edition 940 3.0 GHz
CPU Cooler: Hyper 212 Plus
Motherboard: Asus M3A78
VGA: ATI Radeon HD 4870 1GB
HDD: WD Black 512Gb
SSD: Intel 530
1x DVDR 5.25 drive

And my PSU goes placed "on top"

I'm not certainly sure about how much power does it need. I'm willing to get a PSU that's quiet on idle, and that stays quiet while watching movies or doing common usage

Here is a curve provided by lodestar:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cases/se ... up/gr6.png

I understand that the Seasonic S12II is an old serie, but it's the only decent option available here, or at least the only one I've read being mentioned or reviewed.
Does it worth getting this psu nowadays?

[Vicotnik]

At first, I was convinced to buy a Seasonic S12II-520w after reading SPCR review of the 380w model, but after doing more research I'm having second thoughts..

I'm glad you are having second thoughts. That review is dated 2007-08-31. Don't buy computer hardware in 2014 based on reviews from 2007.

Seasonic G-360 perhaps?

[edh]

In terms of silence an older PSU like the S12II is not such a great choice. It's 80 Plus rated, but not Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum or Titanium. As such, it will output more waste heat and that waste heat needs to be got rid of by a fan which will have to spin faster than in a newer more efficient PSU.

Where are you located? Are you able to buy online or are you only able to buy in a local shop? What options are available to you? What is your budget?

In terms of your system, both your CPU and graphics card are both pretty high TDP so you can expect under stress testing that it will approach 300W power draw. The 4870 also features 2x 6-pin PCI-E power connectors. You can always use a molex adaptor to get a second connector but if you want to have both connectors from the PSU then you will have to look at over 400W. The G-360 that Vicotnik mentions would suffer from that problem but the G-460 would be OK.

Passive PSUs are also available in this power range but given your CPU and graphics card are high powered, I doubt that your other components will be exceptionally silent. A modern fan cooled PSU would be sufficiently quiet and far cheaper.

You can have a read of the SPCR recommended list but it is a little out of date itself:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Recommended_PSUs

[quest_for_silence]

but it's the only decent option available here

Where is *here*? Can you kindly provide some links to available shops?

[developer1]

In terms of silence an older PSU like the S12II is not such a great choice. It's 80 Plus rated, but not Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum or Titanium. As such, it will output more waste heat and that waste heat needs to be got rid of by a fan which will have to spin faster than in a newer more efficient PSU.

Where are you located? Are you able to buy online or are you only able to buy in a local shop? What options are available to you? What is your budget?

In terms of your system, both your CPU and graphics card are both pretty high TDP so you can expect under stress testing that it will approach 300W power draw. The 4870 also features 2x 6-pin PCI-E power connectors. You can always use a molex adaptor to get a second connector but if you want to have both connectors from the PSU then you will have to look at over 400W. The G-360 that Vicotnik mentions would suffer from that problem but the G-460 would be OK.

Passive PSUs are also available in this power range but given your CPU and graphics card are high powered, I doubt that your other components will be exceptionally silent. A modern fan cooled PSU would be sufficiently quiet and far cheaper.

You can have a read of the SPCR recommended list but it is a little out of date itself:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Recommended_PSUs

Hello, thanks for replying. Actually it's a Seasonic S12II 520 Bronze. Is it a more recent version than the reviewed in 2007 or is it just the same?

I'm from Argentina, south america. Unfortunatelly I can't buy a PSU abroad because of customs.
Those Seasonic G series are not available here. I've searched a lot and I've only seen this S12ii bronze model and a Platinium 1000w model, which is way too much. The M12II Bronze series were available once, but they've been out of stock for a while

I've been searching and asking for many of those brands on the recommended list, but I couldn't find any.

Here are other options I wrote down:

Seasonic M12II-620W Bronze (out of stock)
CoolerMaster 620W Silent Pro M2 80 Plus
CoolerMaster 720W Silent Pro M2 80 Plus
NZXT Hale82N 550w <-- I think the M model is the one made by Seasonic, not the N, right?
EVGA 440w <-- never heard of it
Corsair CS650M
Corsair CX600
XFX Pro 650W
Sentey SDP 650W 80 Plus
Antec HCG 750M
Antec VP450P


If I wan't a Gold or Platinium PSU I would have to buy something of 750W, 850W or even more.

[lodestar]

...Corsair CS650M...

This PSU is Gold rated and that is verified by Corsair. It is semi-modular, so some cables are permanently attached but the rest you can use as required. Corsair do not publish a fan speed profile but they do provide the load/fan noise graphic shown below. From other reviews it seems that the starting speed for the fan is around 600 rpm rising to around 800 at 50% load and hitting 1100 rpm at 80% load. This is quite reasonable for a 120mm fan. It would meet your objective of a quiet PSU under idle or low system stress conditions.



To me this looks like a mainstream budget priced Gold rated PSU and might be worth considering in view of the fairly limited choice you have available. The relatively low price for a Gold unit is achieved by using lower quality components including the fan. This is reflected both in its price and the warranty provided by Corsair which is for three years. Having said that it is probably a much higher quality unit than the one it is replacing.

[quest_for_silence]

CoolerMaster 620W Silent Pro M2 80 Plus
CoolerMaster 720W Silent Pro M2 80 Plus
NZXT Hale82N 550w <-- I think the M model is the one made by Seasonic, not the N, right?
EVGA 440w <-- never heard of it
Corsair CS650M
Corsair CX600
XFX Pro 650W
Sentey SDP 650W 80 Plus
Antec HCG 750M
Antec VP450P

CM Silent Pro M2, old design, decent Enhance-built units, not extremely quiet but quite resilient to high case temperature, see SPCR review.
NZXT Hale82N, forget it, an expensive, flawed products which suffers a lot high case temperature.
eVGA 440, Maybe 430? In case, it's a FSP Raider, nothing to write home about.
Corsair CS650M, modern design, decent built (set aside some caps), quiet fan up to 350-400W despite high case temperature.
Corsair CX600 cheap design & cheaply built, more probably that not inferior to the Seasonic AT, moderately quiet at low loads (maybe up to 120W?).
XFX... which Pro 650? There are three or four different version around... however, it's a Seasonic unit, depending of the specific model, an S12-II-like or a slightly more modern SS-650AT-like.
Sentey, never heard of
Antec HCG750M it's a Seasonic M12-II with an high speed fan, one of the worst ears offender on earth.
Antec VP450P it's a cheaply built and noisy Delta unit.

[quest_for_silence]

Having said that it is probably a much higher quality unit than the one it is replacing.

Not just "probably", but for certain: that CM unit cannot be used as a boat anchor or a paper weight just because it's too light, while acting as a PSU it cannot deliver more than 400W safely despite the 600W rated power, go figure how "good" it is...

[developer1]

I've been away from the research because there was still no stock of PSUs here. But, some units have arrived this week. I will list them below

...Corsair CS650M...

This PSU is Gold rated and that is verified by Corsair. It is semi-modular, so some cables are permanently attached but the rest you can use as required. Corsair do not publish a fan speed profile but they do provide the load/fan noise graphic shown below. From other reviews it seems that the starting speed for the fan is around 600 rpm rising to around 800 at 50% load and hitting 1100 rpm at 80% load. This is quite reasonable for a 120mm fan. It would meet your objective of a quiet PSU under idle or low system stress conditions.



To me this looks like a mainstream budget priced Gold rated PSU and might be worth considering in view of the fairly limited choice you have available. The relatively low price for a Gold unit is achieved by using lower quality components including the fan. This is reflected both in its price and the warranty provided by Corsair which is for three years. Having said that it is probably a much higher quality unit than the one it is replacing.

I wan't to let you know I did read your post time ago, but the units were all out of stock for ages so I wasn't in mood to keep doing research :/.. This CS650M was in stock days ago
Like you said, "the relatively low price for a Gold unit is achieved by using lower quality components including the fan", the unit seems to have a low quality fan. Doing some research I found many buyer reviews saying that the fan started to make noise after a few weeks/months.

Having said that it is probably a much higher quality unit than the one it is replacing.

Not just "probably", but for certain: that CM unit cannot be used as a boat anchor or a paper weight just because it's too light, while acting as a PSU it cannot deliver more than 400W safely despite the 600W rated power, go figure how "good" it is...

Yes, according to many reviews, the rated power of this CM unit is a lie. I guess whatever PSU I buy its going to be better than this CM unit, but I'm intended to pick a very quiet one

XFX... which Pro 650? There are three or four different version around... however, it's a Seasonic unit, depending of the specific model, an S12-II-like or a slightly more modern SS-650AT-like.

Today there're many different XFX versions available. I'll list them below:

XFX Pro 550w Ts550 (P1-550S-XXB9): $110 jonnyguru review, S12-II-like?
XFX Core Edition 650W TS 650w (P1-650S-NLB9): $156, S12-II-like?
XFX XXX Edition 650W TS 650w (P1-650X-XXB9): $150, M12-II-like? with improvements, like a 135mm fan
XFX Core EditionPro750W
XFX XXX Edition Pro750W
XFX Black Edition 750w: $210
XFX XTR 750w (P1-750B-BEFX): $210

Corsair CS650M: $165
Corsair CS750M: $182
Corsair RM750: $208


Well, those are the choices available by today. Which one should I pick of all these?

[quest_for_silence]

XFX Pro 550w Ts550 (P1-550S-XXB9): $110 jonnyguru review, S12-II-like?
XFX Core Edition 650W TS 650w (P1-650S-NLB9): $156, S12-II-like?
XFX XXX Edition 650W TS 650w (P1-650X-XXB9): $150, M12-II-like?
XFX Core Edition Pro750W
XFX XXX Edition Pro750W
XFX XTR750 (P1-750B-BEFX): $210 <-- On this hardcop review it is said it's similar to a Seasonic G-750, with a better fan. Gold certified, hybrid fan control


Corsair CS650M: $165
Corsair CS750M: $182
Corsair RM750: $208 <-- It seems to be a good unit, but I haven't read any noise tests. Gold certified, hybrid fan control


Well, those are the choices available by today. If none of this choices is convincing I can wait a little more to see if any other models arrive. I'm being patient since I need to get a very quiet unit

The quietest PSU among the quoted ones is the RM750, by far, the XFX XTR is noticeably better built, but much more audible depending of the actual power draw and the case temperature.
The CS-series at those pricing isn't interesting at all, IMHO.
The other quoted XFX are decent unit based upon proven designs, less quiet than the CS but much more better built, so IMO with an higher value, but I don't consider them as "very quiet".

[developer1]

I've also founded the XFX Pro Series Black Edition 750W in stock. I've read it's based on the Seasonic X-Series KM3, that its a X-750W rebranded - Is this a good thing?
It's price is exactly the same than the XFX XTR750 and the Corsair RM750: $210

The quietest PSU among the quoted ones is the RM750, by far, the XFX XTR is noticeably better built, but much more audible depending of the actual power draw and the case temperature.
The CS-series at those pricing isn't interesting at all, IMHO.

Thank you for your help. It's very guided.
I have one question about this hybrid fan control. How does a PSU of this sort behave in hot ambients? My room is very warm in summer, like 36°+ in really hot days. Is this PSU going to have noticeable issues? I understand its going to be louder when gets warmer, but I'm asking if being a PSU of this kind is going to be a negative thing when it comes to be in a hot room.

I hope my question is understandable, sorry for my writing mistakes

[quest_for_silence]

I've also founded the XFX Pro Series Black Edition 750W in stock. I've read it's based on the Seasonic X-Series KM3, that its a X-750W rebranded - Is this a good thing?
It's price is exactly the same than the XFX XTR750 and the Corsair RM750: $210

Any X-series derivative is better than the other two PSUs: according to a TechPowerUp! review, there's a chance it can be louder than the RM750 in the (about) 225W-550W range, but it depends of many factors (ambient temp, PSU placement and case ventilation mostly), but even so, for the same money, personally I would still go for the XFX Black Edition.

I have one question about this hybrid fan control. How does a PSU of this sort behave in hot ambients? My room is very warm in summer, like 36°+ in really hot days. Is this PSU going to have noticeable issues? I understand its going to be louder when gets warmer, but I'm asking if being a PSU of this kind is going to be a negative thing when it comes to be in a hot room.

It's hard to foresee any reliable scenario: with reference to noise-level, it's strictly platform dependant. Broadly speaking, Seasonic units are usually more conservative than some competitors, thermal-wise, so that their fan controllers react more quickly and more prominently to an increasing ambient temperature. But among the units you quoted, as I said only the Corsair RM might perform more quietly, given its wider fanless range, and the more stringent quality control that Corsair has committed to CWT (the OEM).
Unfortunately that Corsair RM build quality, even if decent, is way lower than the X-series one: given that the hotter the environment, the shortest the components life, with reference to reliability a better built unit (like that XFX Black Edition) is clearly preferable. It's a trade off: the chance of being less quiet in your own specific environmental conditions, versus the chance of a longer life in the same scenario, and I already said what I'd do if I were you (even because the RM price is more inflated than the XFX Black Edition one).

[CA_Steve]

It's more fun with pictures. Your system will use no more than ~325W under stressed load. Gaming load will be under 300W. Techpowerup shows the X series 750W's hybrid mode fan to turn on betwen 300W and 375W with 40-45C ambient.


Their RM 750 review shows the PSU's fan to turn on at >450W with 39-45C ambient.


So, given a 36C and <300W environment, neither PSUs' fan should be spinning. The caveat being your case, the case placement (is it stuffed in a cubbyhole or in open air), and airflow through the case.

[developer1]

So, given a 36C and <300W environment, neither PSUs' fan should be spinning. The caveat being your case, the case placement (is it stuffed in a cubbyhole or in open air), and airflow through the case.

The case is placed in open air. Now I have a low end case. It has a Noctua NF-A14@750Rpm as intake fan and a Noctua NF-S12@750Rpm as exhaust fan. In summers I let it side-opened, because I have to since the PSU gets very noisy on high ambient temps.
I'll buy a better case, for sure. I'm between the Fractal R4 or the Antec SoloII. I don't know which one is better yet, and I'm still looking for a cheap way to ship this heavy beasts lol


I've to say I like the RM750 rpm/wattage curve. It's quieter than the X-750 between 300w and 550w, but the X-750 runs cooler, so it's a tradeoff, like quest_for_silence said. Yet, that is out of my PC Gaming load. And also, the XFX has way better built quality.

Up to here, the XFX Black Edition 750w seems to be the best choice among these two.


Now i'm thinking about coil whine. I've read many people having issues with it on the Seasonic X-series, and also people who are happy with its silence. Do I have to worry about it?
Corsair adversites that "they fight coil whine" getting their components controlled rigorously by the OEM (Chicony?).

[quest_for_silence]

since the PSU gets very noisy on high ambient temps.

The 36°C ambient quoted by Steve is to be referred to the intake (PSU) temp: with a room temp of 36°C, inside the case the intake (PSU) temp will be much hotter (depending also on the case placement).

I'm between the Fractal R4 or the Antec SoloII. I don't know which one is better yet, and I'm still looking for a cheap way to ship this heavy beasts lol

From a rational point of view, the R4 is probably better suited to run quietly an X-series: with the fan facing downwards it should draw the most fresh air available (unless the case sits on a carpet).

About international shipping, providing that Amazon didn't ship to Argentina, one of the cheapest choice *might* be buying the case off eBay USA using the eBay Global Shipping Program: Pitney Bowes (the "official" eBay freight forwarder) charges are usually the cheapest to Europe, and by far. So, whether eBay & Pitney had to ship to Argentina too, it might worth to check that option: obviously, along with the shipping charge, you have to pay to Pitney the import charges too (which usually should be referred to the item price only), which I don't know how much high they are.

Now i'm thinking about coil whine. I've read many people having issues with it on the Seasonic X-series, and also people who are happy with its silence. Do I have to worry about it?

As far as I know, averagely the occurrence of "coil whine" with the Seasonic high end platforms is nowadays around 10% (ballpark figures, but that may also depend of other hardware involved).

So yes, there'are not too little chances that you may run into this issue: but given it's an issue covered by the manufacturer's warranty, what really matters is that your local supplier will be able to swap the PSU with a new one with no objections, because an RMA process directly to XFX would be lenghty and extremely expensive.

Corsair adversites that "they fight coil whine" getting their components controlled rigorously by the OEM (Chicony?).

I stand corrected, the OEM for the 750/850 RM is Chicony, and not CWT (which manufactures both the other two series, I mean the 450/550/650, and the 1000 too).

Actually that claim would seem true: the RM-series doesn't suffer the so called "coil whine", at least with a rate comparable to the current Seasonic's one.
But take also note that shit happens (or may happen), even with less prone-to-fault series, like the RM (or the EVGA Leadex).

[developer1]

The seller said they would send it to XFX and they will address the issue. They added that they've had RMA cases for coil whine and XFX gave a replacement or repaired the unit. The PSU has 1 year local warranty. Then I've to deal with the 5 year warranty with XFX by myself.
The RM750 has only 6 months of warranty

One thing I realised is that the XFX Black Edition 750 has an AD1212MB-A70GL fan which is not the San Ace 120mm fan fitted on the X-750. It's the same fan used in the S12II




I'm going for the XFX Black Edition, though. Reading everywhere about the RM750's bad quality filtering capacitors has convinced me to do so. I'm trying to avoid dealing with expensive and long RMAs.

Thanks for your help, I'll post results once I have it

[developer1]

Bad news. I wen't to the store and it was the XTR750.. not the Black Edition Pro series. I haven't bought it, of course


I've decided to buy a PSU from USA and ship it abroad, because there aren't many PSUs available here. The only reamining available option is the Corsair RM750, but it's overpowered for my system and is also not good quality

[lodestar]

...One thing I realised is that the XFX Black Edition 750 has an AD1212MB-A70GL fan which is not the San Ace 120mm fan fitted on the X-750. It's the same fan used in the S12II

Yes, and the modular equivalent M12II series as well as more recent PSUs (the Seasonic S12G and G models).

[MikeC]

...One thing I realised is that the XFX Black Edition 750 has an AD1212MB-A70GL fan which is not the San Ace 120mm fan fitted on the X-750. It's the same fan used in the S12II

Yes, and the modular equivalent M12II series as well as more recent PSUs (the Seasonic S12G and G models).

I have to jump in here and say that when the fan controllers are working correctly, the sound quality of the fan is almost irrelevant because it spins so slowly. There have been lots of PSUs I've reviewed with fans that are pretty damn noisy at full speed -- including the San Ace! -- yet lots of those PSUs are among the quietest PSUs I've reviewed.

developer1 -- Too bad there are so few choices for quiet PSUs in Argentina. I have a bunch that would work fine for you but I think the shipping between Vancouver & Argentina makes it pretty pricey.

[developer1]

...One thing I realised is that the XFX Black Edition 750 has an AD1212MB-A70GL fan which is not the San Ace 120mm fan fitted on the X-750. It's the same fan used in the S12II

Yes, and the modular equivalent M12II series as well as more recent PSUs (the Seasonic S12G and G models).

I have to jump in here and say that when the fan controllers are working correctly, the sound quality of the fan is almost irrelevant because it spins so slowly. There have been lots of PSUs I've reviewed with fans that are pretty damn noisy at full speed -- including the San Ace! -- yet lots of those PSUs are among the quietest PSUs I've reviewed.

developer1 -- Too bad there are so few choices for quiet PSUs in Argentina. I have a bunch that would work fine for you but I think the shipping between Vancouver & Argentina makes it pretty pricey.

A friend of mine is at USA now and he is going to get me a PSU . I'm going to buy one at newegg or amazon. Thanks for the offer, though.

I'm trying to decide if getting a be quiet straight power 10 is a good choice.

be quiet! Straight Power 10 600W Modular - $80 (I mailed the manufacturer and said he would ship me another psu himself if I have to RMA it).
What is making me hesitate are its chinese capacitors on the primary side. And it's like, I dont feel myself being reasonable if I get this PSU after I rejected to buy a Corsair RM because of its chinese capacitors in the secondary side.
But, you have used this PSU in the SPCR's Quiet ATX Gaming Build Guide so I guess it can't be that bad ?

I understand the reason why you've chosen this PSU over a passive unit in this gaming build. My question is if it's also good for a computer which is normally idle/low stress use or playing movies. I guess this PSU at low loads is equally silent like a fanless unit, right?

[MikeC]

I'm trying to decide if getting a be quiet straight power 10 is a good choice.

be quiet! Straight Power 10 600W Modular - $80 (I mailed the manufacturer and said he would ship me another psu himself if I have to RMA it).
What is making me hesitate are its chinese capacitors on the primary side. And it's like, I dont feel myself being reasonable if I get this PSU after I rejected to buy a Corsair RM because of its chinese capacitors in the secondary side.
But, you have used this PSU in the SPCR's Quiet ATX Gaming Build Guide so I guess it can't be that bad ?

I understand the reason why you've chosen this PSU over a passive unit in this gaming build. My question is if it's also good for a computer which is normally idle/low stress use or playing movies. I guess this PSU noise at low loads is equal to a fanless unit, right?

If long term reliability is paramount, then you have to think about what happens to internal component temperature when the PSU is operating.

With a passive or semi-passively cooled PSU, since the fan is not running, some components have to get pretty hot in there at lower load. Once the fan does turn on, then those components will get cooler, at least until the power demand gets really high.

If the fan never turns on because the PSU is under low enough load all the time, then there's no difference between passive and semi-passive PSU in longevity. I think they would not be as good as if a fan was running slowly in there all the time.

IMO, for the best reliability, you want a PSU whose fan runs ALL THE TIME. The fan in the bequiet sp10 600w never actually stops, iirc; it just runs really slowly.

[developer1]

I'm trying to decide if getting a be quiet straight power 10 is a good choice.

be quiet! Straight Power 10 600W Modular - $80 (I mailed the manufacturer and said he would ship me another psu himself if I have to RMA it).
What is making me hesitate are its chinese capacitors on the primary side. And it's like, I dont feel myself being reasonable if I get this PSU after I rejected to buy a Corsair RM because of its chinese capacitors in the secondary side.
But, you have used this PSU in the SPCR's Quiet ATX Gaming Build Guide so I guess it can't be that bad ?

I understand the reason why you've chosen this PSU over a passive unit in this gaming build. My question is if it's also good for a computer which is normally idle/low stress use or playing movies. I guess this PSU noise at low loads is equal to a fanless unit, right?

If long term reliability is paramount, then you have to think about what happens to internal component temperature when the PSU is operating.

With a passive or semi-passively cooled PSU, since the fan is not running, some components have to get pretty hot in there at lower load. Once the fan does turn on, then those components will get cooler, at least until the power demand gets really high.

If the fan never turns on because the PSU is under low enough load all the time, then there's no difference between passive and semi-passive PSU in longevity. I think they would not be as good as if a fan was running slowly in there all the time.

IMO, for the best reliability, you want a PSU whose fan runs ALL THE TIME. The fan in the bequiet sp10 600w never actually stops, iirc; it just runs really slowly.

This really helped in my decision, plus reading your gaming build on the Fractal r4/r5.

Just updating: I've bought a be quiet! Straight Power 10 600w. It will take more than a month to arrive home. I'll update again once I have it running just to conclude the thread. Cheers

[whispercat]

Would a fanless PSU with a case fan underneath be any different (better / worse?) than a fanned PSU?

[developer1]

Hello again, I'm here updating.

After a year of runing the Be Quiet Straight Power 10 600W inside a Fractal R5, I'm still very happy with it. It's very quiet and I don't have any coil whine issues . Well, I only had heard it once when the air conditioner in the living room was just turned on, but after I turned that airconditioner off and on again the coil whine went off. Let's say it again, it happened only once.

The fan is constantly spinning but at very low speed. I really can't hear it. I can only tell if the fan is spinning by looking at it.

The packaging was excellent. The unit shipped well all the way from USA to South America.

I got it at newegg for a promotional price of $80. Despite it's the "non modular version", it is semi-modular, so it doesn't look like if I had an octopus sleeping inside my case.

Thank you all again for your help.