IDE cable dilema - need special one...

trodas · Post by **trodas** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:40 pm

Im not sure if this is good place, or I should try the General discussion tread (when get too low imput I perhaps do

), but I got this ot so simple problem.

It seems that I need special ATA133 cable. Just follow me. Todays, the ATA66+ cables has defined where master/slave devices on them must be. Master/single drive at the end. Therefore my HDD has to be a master and at the end.

When my HDD is siting QUIETLY yet a little bit more heated on the bottom of my case like this: http://ax2.wz.cz/show.php?p=silentpc&id=12&c=7&d=1&v=v2
...then I can't connect my IDE drawer (even it's at the most bottom 5 1/4" position) to the IDE cable slave position, because of the insufficient lenght of the cable between the slave and master connectors. Let me draw what lenghts I need to suceed:

mobo <- 24cm -> slave <- 26cm -> master

mobo <- 10" -> slave <- 11" -> master
¨
This will definitively help me!
But when you check the lengts of the cables sold (if the shop showing it), then you see that these are mostly about this (60cm/24" cable)

mobo <- 40cm -> slave <- 20cm -> master

mobo <- 16" -> slave <- 8" -> master

A typical 60cm/24" cable for example from http://heatsinkfactory.com/cgi-bin/HFAs ... gno=RC-002

There are also 90cm/36" cables, but looking at them did not convice me that their "slave to master" connectors distance will be greater that the 20cm (8") or 25cm (10") - (i also did not get their proper lenghts yet...)
- and I must have 26cm (10.2") at very least!

So it looks like a problem. Not to mention that for good case airflow I should not have such unnecessary long cables (like the idea of 90cm/36" one). I come to conclusion that I just have to buy connectors and cable and make the IDE cable for myself.
It will not be round one, but this is not that big problem, as the cable could be bend to be in line with the air, just when I make it about 5cm/2" longer for my distances...
Anyone have any idea, where to buy such things...

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:51 pm

18" is the maximum recommended length (someone will correct me if I'm mistaken)

granitedigital.com will make one for you

Post by **Rusty075** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:19 pm

Flip the cable around.

Plug the end you usually plug into the motherboard into your HDD. Will it reach then? (IDE cables don't care what's plugged in where)

That or put your HDD on it's own IDE cable all by itself. What do you have on the other channel?

Or buy a cheap PCI RAID card. That would probably be cheaper than having some wierd non-spec cable custom made. They can be had for <$20.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:20 pm

The 36 inch cables have worked fine for me in many different computers...for years.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:29 pm

i used to use a SIIG card that offered 2 extra IDE connections (supported 4 drives) - it did work well.

trodas · Post by **trodas** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:15 am

Trip - I want 21" one

I quess that when they making a rounded one for 36", this should not be a problem, even at the mentioned ATA133 speed

Rusty075 - tricky idea

The problem is, that when I do it, the cable did not reach from the mobo, to the IDE drawer. You seems forget that I mention I need 10" there

(i measured this)
Also I have some doubts how thing will work this way. I mean - on the old ATA33 - no-one cares. But from ATA66 and the UDMA, master must be at the end of the cable, and not into the middle - so Im a bit worried about functionality - but hey, I try it, it the new mobo allow my IDE cable to reach this - the DFI NFII Lanparty B have the IDE 1 connector almost where it should fit, but we see...

(waiting for post)
Thx for input! It might work!
...the rest of the suggestions is not what I want. On the second IDE cable are NEC 2500A and 100MB Zip drive. They have to stay there. I curently have the HDD on the cable alone, I even used a 1-1 short cable

...after finding that I can't connect the IDE drawer...

I did not want RAID at all. First, I did nto want another PCI card, second every RAID I has cause only add problems with winblows/drivers instalation and all I want is smooth running default, supported devices. No temperature readings, for example, trough RAID except some Promise ones... etc. My intent is keep my machine simple. For need of special cable I did not end with RAID - that's insane!

Sorry to be a little bit harsh, your imput is valuable, however THIS particular suggesting is a bit, eh...

Remember, my machine IS IN fanless case. I can't afford to
a) reduce airflow in any, even very small way!
b) I can't afford add another devices - they generate more heat and restrict airflow again!
c) I can't add fans, becasue even at 5V they are too loud for me

Even the quietiest ones...
You see? Im special superfreak

Addicted to overclocking but yet silence. Very dangerous and overstressing all my poor components with very high temps...

Bluefront - are you using ATA133 devices and if you do, do you checked the errorate?

I thinhk it should work, but... you know, better to be sure. Besides, I did not need/want such long cables in ma case

Too much airflow restricting...

wim · Post by **wim** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:34 am

trodas,

here's a trick that many people don't know about.. you can actually move the plugs on those pata cables. you don't even need any special tools.

i've done it several times on flat ribbon cables, 80 pin and 40 pin, i'm not sure if it possible on rounded cables - theoretically possible but a lot of stuffing around.

buy long flat ribbon cables and just pull the middle clip off (use your instincts) squeeze it back on at the distance you need. each wire has two little metal teeth that will pinch into the plastic and connect onto the wire. make sure you don't mix up pin 1 (i.e. make sure to get it on the right way again)
it's a really easy job if you have access to a vice or clamp or something, i just mashed mine back together in the vice in our garage

ps: suppose you could do it with a flat cable and then turn it into a round cable if you REALLY wanted your round cables - cut the ribbon into groups of 10 or 20 and shrink tube wrap them up. but seriously, imo the whole idea of flat cables impeding your airflow and giving you cancer is kind of bs

wim · Post by **wim** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:48 am

check it out man i just took a pic for you

this is my liteon ide drives (cdrw and dvd) on udma on an 80 pin cable
i bought the longest cable i could find and moved the middle plug right up near the end

(the drives sit up on the desk with me, along with power and reset switches and my cordless keyb+mouse, while the rest of the mainframe computer is hidden away in some other room i.e. where i can't hear ANY noise

)

Jan Kivar · Post by **Jan Kivar** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:27 am

Rusty075 wrote:Plug the end you usually plug into the motherboard into your HDD. Will it reach then? (IDE cables don't care what's plugged in where)

By doing that You'll automatically disable any ATA66/100/133 support. Moving the connector is your best bet. Practise it first with other (older) ATA cables.

If You buy a 36" cable, You can move the connectors and then just cut the excess cable off.

Master at the end of cable is not a must. If You put both devices to CS mode (cable select), the one that's at the end of the cable will become master. I've run master on the middle connector. Maybe the speed will drop to ATA66 or even ATA33, so it might be an eternal dilemma between noise/performance.

Cheers,

Jan

wim · Post by **wim** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:43 am

Jan Kivar wrote:Master at the end of cable is not a must. If You put both devices to CS mode (cable select), the one that's at the end of the cable will become master. I've run master on the middle connector. Maybe the speed will drop to ATA66 or even ATA33, so it might be an eternal dilemma between noise/performance.

don't use CS, just set a master and slave. if you look at my pic carefully, maybe you can see i have got the burner in the middle as master and the dvd on the end as slave. no speed loss.

Jan Kivar · Post by **Jan Kivar** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:06 am

wim wrote:
Jan Kivar wrote:Master at the end of cable is not a must. If You put both devices to CS mode (cable select), the one that's at the end of the cable will become master. I've run master on the middle connector. Maybe the speed will drop to ATA66 or even ATA33, so it might be an eternal dilemma between noise/performance.
don't use CS, just set a master and slave. if you look at my pic carefully, maybe you can see i have got the burner in the middle as master and the dvd on the end as slave. no speed loss.

Eh... What I tried to say is that "master at the end of the cable" comes from CS setting. It is advisable, but not required, unless one gets those speed problems, or other problems.

CS is for OEMs.

Cheers,

Jan

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:00 pm

wim, I've got some old cables lying around and need a special length as well. I'm going to try what you say - that's an amazing trick. I only need ATA33 (for CD copier and DVD player).

shathal · Post by **shathal** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:31 pm

wim wrote:trodas,

here's a trick that many people don't know about.. you can actually move the plugs on those pata cables. you don't even need any special tools.

i've done it several times on flat ribbon cables, 80 pin and 40 pin, i'm not sure if it possible on rounded cables - theoretically possible but a lot of stuffing around.

buy long flat ribbon cables and just pull the middle clip off (use your instincts) squeeze it back on at the distance you need. each wire has two little metal teeth that will pinch into the plastic and connect onto the wire. make sure you don't mix up pin 1 (i.e. make sure to get it on the right way again)
it's a really easy job if you have access to a vice or clamp or something, i just mashed mine back together in the vice in our garage

ps: suppose you could do it with a flat cable and then turn it into a round cable if you REALLY wanted your round cables - cut the ribbon into groups of 10 or 20 and shrink tube wrap them up. but seriously, imo the whole idea of flat cables impeding your airflow and giving you cancer is kind of bs

Heh - nice one WIM. I shall look for some disposable IDE cables and experiment with this myself

.

Niftyness

.

Ta, mate.

al bundy · Post by **al bundy** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:23 am

shathal wrote: Heh - nice one WIM. I shall look for some disposable IDE cables and experiment with this myself ...

Me too! I never knew we could do this with PATA cables. Thanks wim!

shathal · Post by **shathal** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:26 am

al bundy wrote:
shathal wrote: Heh - nice one WIM. I shall look for some disposable IDE cables and experiment with this myself ...
Me too! I never knew we could do this with PATA cables. Thanks wim!

Yeah.

It *MAKES* sense once you think about it ("teeth" in the connector) ... makes me wonder why I'd not figured it before. A Homer-esque "d'uh" comes to mind

.

trodas · Post by **trodas** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:19 am

wim - that's what Im affraid of - the rotating of the cable will reduct the speed of my drive/machine. Frankly, that is the LAST thing I ever want to

Simply out of options. I need every % of speed. ATA133 is a must.

I hear your suggestion and recommendation that vice is simply best for adding IDE cable connectors

And I have not one, but there vices anyway

Skills and equipment is not a problem in my case, and I can stick with flat cable, not a problem. When bent right, could be even less air-restricting that the rounded one anyway

Wht concern me is where to get the 80pin IDE cable?

...and I would like more to get new connectors too, but when not possible, I stick with used as well...

Any ideas, anyone, where to buy 80pin ATA133 IDE cable - jsut a plain cable w/o connectors and perhaps the connectors alone

wim · Post by **wim** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:55 am

trodas wrote:Wht concern me is where to get the 80pin IDE cable? ...and I would like more to get new connectors too, but when not possible, I stick with used as well...
Any ideas, anyone, where to buy 80pin ATA133 IDE cable - jsut a plain cable w/o connectors and perhaps the connectors alone

it's really hard to buy connectors and small amounts of just the cable. but seriously, why do you want to do that.

you don't. looking at your first post, the length you need is pretty standard, you just need to shift that middle plug.

i got your PM:

trodas wrote: The only problem is, where to bough the plain cables that can be used to this trick

maybe you misunderstand me, you don't need any 'special' type of cable. you can do it with any flat ATA cable. were you confused i said 80 pin...? i mean 80 conductor, it's still only 40 pin.
seriously, it will work with any ATA cable - you don't need me to tell you where to buy one of those, you can get them just about everywhere.
you could do it with the cable i see in your picture from your first post, at a cost of $0.

trodas wrote:wim - that's what Im affraid of - the rotating of the cable will reduct the speed of my drive/machine. Frankly, that is the LAST thing I ever want to
Simply out of options. I need every % of speed. ATA133 is a must.

rotating..? in that tiny distance between your motherboard connector and the bottom of the case, i don't believe any twisting or folding of the cable will reduce speed - the electrons don't mind. latency only becomes an issue for very long cables.
as for ata133, you should be able to get this with any 80 conductor cable. problems obtaining ata133 are usually motherboard and/or drive compatibilty issues.

out of options?! this is the perfect solution at infinite value for money. stop being afraid and just try it. if you already get ata133, you won't lose that by shifting the connector.

ps: as a side note, you seem to be really worried about every % of speed. yes ata133 should be theoretically 33% faster than ata100. BUT the numbers here refer to burst speed, and is not really indicative of real 'useful' or average speed. some tests have indicated that
the difference in performance from ATA100 and ATA133 is negligible

greeef · Post by **greeef** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:03 am

i just want to pipe in and say i was going to suggest the same as wim, made an SLI voodoo2 connector using this method.

griff

PhilgB · Post by **PhilgB** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:21 am

wim or griff How did you do this? I've already broken 2 connectors

and even once I get them off I can barely get them back in their orignial place, nevermind making new holes. Did I miss something?

trodas · Post by **trodas** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:42 am

Trip: http://granitedigital.com will make one for you

Well, I try ask there. Meanwhile I asked http://www.pctoyland.com about the lenght of their 36" cables - i mean between the connectors, of course.
The result is mixed, they told me that the distances are same (slave/master connector) as for the 24" cable - that means the cables looks like this way:

18" -> 0"----11"----18"

24" -> 0"----16"----24"

36" -> 0"----28"----36"

...witch is useless for my case, as the maximal distance between slave/master connectors are 8", while I need 10.2" at least. 11 rather to ba safe

Well, now http://www.pctoyland.com tell me, that they sell: "We do have a do it yourself kit that runs $6.95, but it's ribbon." ...well, I can't find this ATM on their site, but I keep looking and meanwhile ask http://granitedigital.com as Trip (thanks!) suggesting

wim - I quess you did not understand me

I would like do this on clean, new cable for two reasons. First - nicer, not gheto looking result. Second - if things went bad, I will still have at least one usable cable

I mean - better be prepared for the first time IDE cable job, that be sorry and pissed later, right? It's just a safe & sane approach, IMHO

IMHO removing the connector is tricky, but could be done, however the damage on the cable can't be undone and if this, partly naked part of the cable touch any metal in case, well, in extreme case you can say by by to your mainboard HDD controler = whole mobo could be lost.
Unlikely, but could happen...?

greeef · Post by **greeef** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:24 am

PhilgB wrote:wim or griff How did you do this? I've already broken 2 connectors and even once I get them off I can barely get them back in their orignial place, nevermind making new holes. Did I miss something?

well, be prepared to spend a half hour on it for a start.

It was a while ago, from what i remember i took the piece of plastic off the back of the connector, breaking it a bit in the process, to reveal the rows of spikes that push through the ide cable and pierce the conductors.

I pulled this out, then pushed it very hard into the cable where i wanted it. Takes a long time to get it all through with the (lack of) tools i had, but eventually i had them all through. Then i just glued the plastic top back on.

The only damage left to the ide cable is a line of holes in the insulation, there aren't any conductors visible, you have to have a lod of metal powder or conductive liquid in the case for it to become a problem, which to my knowledge, most people avoid...

Practise on a spare old floppy cable or soemthing, tis what i did.

griff

wim · Post by **wim** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:04 am

trodas wrote:wim - I quess you did not understand me I would like do this on clean, new cable for two reasons. First - nicer, not gheto looking result. Second - if things went bad, I will still have at least one usable cable

okay reason no. 2 is understandable. i assumed anyone who does computer building stuff like me has a box full of parts including several of these cables.

but reason no. 1 it looks "gheto"?! here is another pic of my cable, one of the grey connectors was on there from the factory and the other is the one i moved.

can you tell me which is which? lol i guess you can cheat and read my earlier post. but really it looks fine to me. maybe you think the spot where the 'removed' connector was will look bad:

would you object to this being in your case? what sort of supermodel computer do you have over there...
if you can't bear to have this hideous monstrosity inside the case then guess you should take your money to granitedigital. i suppose you also live in the sistine chapel and your girlfriend looks like natalie portman.

trodas wrote: IMHO removing the connector is tricky, but could be done, however the damage on the cable can't be undone and if this, partly naked part of the cable touch any metal in case, well, in extreme case you can say by by to your mainboard HDD controler = whole mobo could be lost.
Unlikely, but could happen...?

you have got to be kidding. lets take a closer look at that ghastly cable wound:

those little black pinholes in the plastic?! an ant couldn't fit his leg into one of those. you could rub that cable against your motherboard, you could wipe it up and down the case... you could probably even dunk the whole cable into mercury. there is no way there is any danger of losing your motherboard because of the removed plug!

how much will it take to convince you?

PhilgB: i just did one and took a couple of photos.. i'll prepare a little 'walkthru' and post here when it's done. all in the name of procrastination.

PhilgB · Post by **PhilgB** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:19 pm

Sweet, thanks wim. As soon as I took off the connector I knew what to do, its just a pain in the arse to get it through

wim · Post by **wim** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:34 am

hey phil

i just got something together clickety click

let me know if you get one working. sorry if there's not the information you wanted.. but no, you're not missing something, there really is no trick involved... you just use those 'nerdy instincts'

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shathal · Post by **shathal** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:45 am

VERY nice guide WIM.

I think that'd deserve a sticky?

trodas · Post by **trodas** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:57 am

OKay, dokey. Even my girlie did not lokk exactly like Natalie Portman and I did not have any supercomputer (well, my friends keep saing that I have, according the the quiet operation and respectable CPU/GPU/HDD power), Im perfekcionist.
I would like clean plain IDE cable, but I can't find it into the Czech Republic anywhere to buy. So, I got a one new and one old, spare IDE ata133 cables.

I begin with the old one. Removing the conector was kinda easy, for first time and in less that 10 sec it's the clip off. I took my time on pulling the cable out, tough. Small steps

Sure could be done better, but I did not know how to do it better yet. wim cable looking better - eg, the pinches are smaller - seems

Then I draw using pencil a line on the cable, where I want the connector to it be exactly 90 degrees straight and went to garage, where I used vice to pressthe things together. Surprisingly easy, sadly the first cable end a little bit misanged, so I tought that I trash it...
...but I tried it first and - whooo - it worked! Both drives at their max - Maxtor at UDMA6 and Seagate at UDMA5 -

Cool. The second cable is perfect, and working also well, no glitch detected. Well, I still would like to start the cable creating process from scratch, as the cable will be nicer, but thanks, wim, you convinced me and I now have my IDE drawer operational!

Great!

PS: to make it sticky we have to found a surce of plain ribbon ATA133 cables & ATA connectors to sale

peteamer · Post by **peteamer** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:22 am

OMG..

.. For crying out Loud... Don't start on the N.P. thing...

You know who'll be back !!!.....

gbass01 · Post by **gbass01** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:27 pm

I'm woried about wire breakage at the site of the old connector if the ribbon is accidentally folded across that area in the future. Will the cable work right if instead of removing the old connector we just ignore it and ADD another connector at the desired location?

PhilgB · Post by **PhilgB** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:26 pm

Your clips are way easier than mine. Im going to have to go buy some different ones. Its almost impossible to remove mine without breaking them. Thanks!

wim · Post by **wim** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:13 am

gbass01 wrote:I'm woried about wire breakage at the site of the old connector if the ribbon is accidentally folded across that area in the future. Will the cable work right if instead of removing the old connector we just ignore it and ADD another connector at the desired location?

yes that is fine. this long yellow cable in my pic actually came with several plugs on there. it was made that way for use in tall server cases i suppose. (of course you can still only use at most 2 devices on cable at once)

trodas i'm glad you finally got it going to speed

i kind of got my mind set on convincing you it could work. however i'm still of the opinion that ghetto tech rules and the coolest looking machines are the ones with their guts spilling out all over the floor..