Samsung 1TB F1 vs Western Digital 1TB GP vs Hitachi 7k1000

Silencing hard drives, optical drives and other storage devices

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

Luminair
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:45 am

Post by Luminair » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:18 am

whiic wrote:Which brings a questions: since WD10EACS is listed as one single model, one single capacity point and one single cache variant, does it mean there's still 7200rpm 1000GB WDs? Or just that smaller are 7200rpm? Why is that 7200rpm mentioned for 1000GB unit specifically? Because in future they might switch from 4 platters 5400rpm to 3 platter 7200rpm without giving warning? Most likely.

And it's possible there's already some 7200rpm drives with (likely) 4 platters, as Firetech's anecdotal experience suggests

Or maybe you have an overactive imagination! Take another look to understand: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=336

They don't say that the speed of the drive is 5400-7200rpm. And there is no reason to believe the conspiracy theory they you suggest. They SAY that the speed is IntelliPower. And IntelliPower is "A fine-tuned balance of spin speed, transfer rate and cache size designed to deliver both significant power savings and solid performance."

So basically the speed is: "We won't tell you, but we tweak it per-model so that we reach our desired performance:power ratio".

When they launch GP versions of the RE drives, you can bet it'll still be IntelliPower... except for those, the IntelliPower will be 7200rpm :)

gb115b
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:47 am
Location: London

Post by gb115b » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:34 am

it's clearly aimed at a market which (on thw whole) is still under the impression that more RPMs are better (not this forum obviously)

but have a look round some other computer hardware forums and see how many 15000RPM Hds you see bragged about with 2000W PSUs no doubt...

so i think they thought the best option was to clearly state that this is aimed at people who want a balance...and hide their grubby details underneath a new nomenclature...

i don't care what spindle speed it is....i doubt my raid 6 array will perform much differently (especially as its just a network file server - access times are pretty irrelevant to me)

whiic
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:48 pm
Location: Finland

Post by whiic » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:26 am

It clearly states "Performance Specifications
Rotational Speed IntelliPower (5400 to 7200 RPM)" right on that very page you linked to. Well, if I don't have overactive imagination... and also a liar who fakes copy-paste. Alternative is that you are just blind.

Or maybe our interpretation is different. To me (in laymans terms) "5400 to 7200 RPM" is synonymous to "5400-7200 RPM". If we're talking matematically, 5400-7200=-1800 which is not synonymous to "5400 to 7200 RPM". Mathematically we'd use "5400...7200" instead of "5400-7200". Well, mathematically we'd need to determine whether exactly 5400 and 7200 belong to this group or just what's in between.

They intentionally make IntelliPower sound like a technology. But in reality it's just a typical marketing word which applies to all spindle speeds. Well, it's not like WD is the only one. Samsung for example has the following ones: • NoiseGuard™ • SilentSeek™ • ImpacGuard™
...and AFAIK, none of them are further specified but are rather collections of all improvements so far. Thus the meaning is continually evolving... or if you think it sarcastically it doesn't have any meaning. Which is pretty much the same as WD's specs as a whole. They have no meaning.

tonyw
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:33 pm

Post by tonyw » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:28 am

I'll freely admit I'm not as hardcore as some with respect to absolutely needing to know the number of platters or spindle speeds. I like a quiet computer too, but at the end of the day my criteria for a hard drive is: (1) does it perform well, and (2) is it quiet? The RPM and number of platters are important only insofar as they relate to the above two criteria.

I've had my WD 1TB GP drive in my Antec Solo for a few days now. I haven't subjectively noticed any decreased performance over the Hitachi 750GB I had in there before, and it is at least as quiet, and my case temps have not gone up. I'm a happy customer :)

Luminair
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:45 am

Post by Luminair » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:22 am

whiic wrote:It clearly states "Performance Specifications
Rotational Speed IntelliPower (5400 to 7200 RPM)" right on that very page you linked to. Well, if I don't have overactive imagination... and also a liar who fakes copy-paste. Alternative is that you are just blind.

Or maybe our interpretation is different. To me (in laymans terms) "5400 to 7200 RPM" is synonymous to "5400-7200 RPM". If we're talking matematically, 5400-7200=-1800 which is not synonymous to "5400 to 7200 RPM". Mathematically we'd use "5400...7200" instead of "5400-7200". Well, mathematically we'd need to determine whether exactly 5400 and 7200 belong to this group or just what's in between.

They intentionally make IntelliPower sound like a technology. But in reality it's just a typical marketing word which applies to all spindle speeds. Well, it's not like WD is the only one. Samsung for example has the following ones: • NoiseGuard™ • SilentSeek™ • ImpacGuard™
...and AFAIK, none of them are further specified but are rather collections of all improvements so far. Thus the meaning is continually evolving... or if you think it sarcastically it doesn't have any meaning. Which is pretty much the same as WD's specs as a whole. They have no meaning.
Yeah your interpretation is wrong. I tried to explain what they mean. Sorry if you don't get it.

quest_for_silence
Posts: 5275
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Location: ITALY

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:11 am

whiic wrote:It clearly states "Performance Specifications
Rotational Speed IntelliPower (5400 to 7200 RPM)"
First of all, I shall make some remarks: I don't speak english very well, so I really have not understood neither both the interpretations, nor if there is really a need for argueing about them. I'd just want to submit to you my interpretation about what WD claims, hoping also that you would forgive me for any possible misunderstanding (again, mainly due to my not so good manage of english).

Well, according to me WD states has this meaning: that the drive's spin speed is dynamically adjusted on the fly, while working, time by time, spinning from a minimum speed of 5400rpm, and up to a maximum speed of 7200rpm. The logic aboard the drive controls this dynamic variation, while WD doesn't furtherly say if this is an adaptive process, or if it follows some predetermined usage patterns or working schemes (more likely, according to me).

These are just my 0.2c, hope it helps: what do you think about?

Luca

Flandry
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:59 pm
Location: IHTFP, MA

Post by Flandry » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:35 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
whiic wrote:It clearly states "Performance Specifications
Rotational Speed IntelliPower (5400 to 7200 RPM)"
First of all, I shall make some remarks: I don't speak english very well, so I really have not understood neither both the interpretations, nor if there is really a need for argueing about them. I'd just want to submit to you my interpretation about what WD claims, hoping also that you would forgive me for any possible misunderstanding (again, mainly due to my not so good manage of english).

Well, according to me WD states has this meaning: that the drive's spin speed is dynamically adjusted on the fly, while working, time by time, spinning from a minimum speed of 5400rpm, and up to a maximum speed of 7200rpm. The logic aboard the drive controls this dynamic variation, while WD doesn't furtherly say if this is an adaptive process, or if it follows some predetermined usage patterns or working schemes (more likely, according to me).

These are just my 0.2c, hope it helps: what do you think about?

Luca
The StorageReview reviewer points out, quite reasonably, that this kind of dynamic acceleration and deceleration would actually use more power, rather than less. They clarify:
Storage Review wrote:This does not mean the drive dynamically changes its spindle speed during operation... indeed, such a feature would entail considerable mechanical engineering and would in many ways defeat the point -- rapidly accelerating and decelerating the spindle's speed would increase rather than decrease net power draw. Rather, the IntelliPower term indicates that the GP family as a whole does not have a set spindle speed (nor a set buffer size, for that matter). Different capacity points may feature differing spin speeds and buffer sizes. For those that must know, WD admits "sub-6000 RPM operation" for the 1-TB Caviar GP (more on this on the following page).

whiic
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:48 pm
Location: Finland

Post by whiic » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:37 am

quest_for_silence: "Well, according to me WD states has this meaning: that the drive's spin speed is dynamically adjusted on the fly, while working, time by time, spinning from a minimum speed of 5400rpm, and up to a maximum speed of 7200rpm."

I think that was pretty much proven not to be the case. SR benchmarks are all what could be expected for a drive constantly spinning at 5400rpm.

Since it's permanently locked to 5400rpm, I believe 7200rpm variants will also be permanently locked to one spin rate. And in their specs they basically "reserve the right" to supply either 5400rpm or 7200rpm variants depending on position of planets, both orderable from them by the same model number.

Some day this will most certainly be the case and it will happen without prior notice. It just might be happening already, with both 5400rpm and 7200rpm drives being shipped, undistinguishable from each other until powered up (in which case it may be too late to return the drive to retailer as anti-static bag has been opened).

We have got used to huge sample variance on both Seagate and WD drives but this is really record-braking. Or do you have heard of a drive model that has been shipped in different rpm "variants" under one name and one model number?

Luminair
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:45 am

Post by Luminair » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:27 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
whiic wrote:It clearly states "Performance Specifications
Rotational Speed IntelliPower (5400 to 7200 RPM)"
First of all, I shall make some remarks: I don't speak english very well, so I really have not understood neither both the interpretations, nor if there is really a need for argueing about them. I'd just want to submit to you my interpretation about what WD claims, hoping also that you would forgive me for any possible misunderstanding (again, mainly due to my not so good manage of english).

Well, according to me WD states has this meaning: that the drive's spin speed is dynamically adjusted on the fly, while working, time by time, spinning from a minimum speed of 5400rpm, and up to a maximum speed of 7200rpm. The logic aboard the drive controls this dynamic variation, while WD doesn't furtherly say if this is an adaptive process, or if it follows some predetermined usage patterns or working schemes (more likely, according to me).

These are just my 0.2c, hope it helps: what do you think about?

Luca
That is perfectly reasonable to think. The choice of words by WD is obviously confusing people.

Above I explained what they mean, but I don't necessarily agree with it. ;) They are basically obscuring information in their current documentation. So the documentation could be updated to explain things a bit better.

whiic
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:48 pm
Location: Finland

Post by whiic » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:12 am

"The choice of words by WD is obviously confusing people."

While current specs don't directly say it has variable rpm, they claim 5400-7200rpm range of operation due to IntelliPower technology. They claim it's technology so it leads people thinking there's something new to it.

But in reality, WD sucks at bringing new technology. It's patent portfolio is worst of all HDD makers and they merely licence rights to use them. Hitachi and Seagate own vast majority of intellectual property and Samsung owns some. Of course most of these patents are pretty obsolete these days but it does give a slight idea where WD stands. They are a market innovator: they customize drives for different markets others don't serve.

"They are basically obscuring information in their current documentation. So the documentation could be updated to explain things a bit better."

"Could." How about "would"? I seriously doubt that will happen as long as WD management lives in belief that they're serving performance enthusiasts (and only them) instead on regular users. Misconception about variable rpm fit nicely to performance enthusiasts since even Hitachi, which I would consider de-facto desktop performance leader at 7200rpm spindle rate, uses such a technology through APM feature and it doesn't compromise performance.

I'm also not sure abot whether it's just a misconception or half-intentional misleading. Maybe some prerelease paperlaunch documents talked about variability which might have later been removed from the docs (without correcting the misconceptions created by older docs).

Btw, I ordered that WD already and canceled F1 order. I found a retailer that sold it for around 260 eur (incl. 22% VAT) (not incl. postage). F1 I ordered was around 290 eur. Most other retailers selling 1TB in Finland sell it for higher than 300 eur. Hitachi's lowest price according to MBnet price watch was still at 330 and many stores will still charge you with 360 eur.

Getting a terabyter that cheap, I don't really care if it's 7200rpm. Well, I do care, but I'd still be "moderately happy" to have solved my dire need of capacity. If it's a 5400rpm unit I receive, I'm even happier. :)
Retailer has it on stock and it should arrive either by next Friday or early next week.

I'll post my findings when I get the drive. I'll try to make some subjective analysis of the noise (which is kinda hard because I don't own T-series or other widely used drive that is considered quiet for reference point), random access time measurements (to further find if it's 5400rpm or 7200rpm), STR and power consumption. I don't have prebuilt method of measuring power draw so I'll probably just measure operating temperature when run bare sitting on a desk. Reference might be 7K250 which is not a quiet drive but at least it's power consumption is well known. (I'll just have to disable APM on 7K250 so that it doesn't go to low-rpm when idling.) Temperature measurement of drive with digital multimeter + thermocouple.

Alternatively I could use external power brick 2A 5V, 2A 12V with molex output. Put a current meter between 12V output on power brick and 12V input IDE-to-SATA power adapter cable which in turn connected to HDD. Solid connections between 5V and GND. Then repeat for 5V line and run the test again. It's a bit hazzle, though.

SileX
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:57 am

Post by SileX » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:41 am

whiic wrote:Btw, I ordered that WD already and canceled F1 order. I found a retailer that sold it for around 260 eur (incl. 22% VAT) (not incl. postage). F1 I ordered was around 290 eur. Most other retailers selling 1TB in Finland sell it for higher than 300 eur. Hitachi's lowest price according to MBnet price watch was still at 330 and many stores will still charge you with 360 eur.
Could you please let us know the retailers for those prices of WD GreenPower and Samsung Spinpoint F1?

Is MBnet www dot mbnet dot com ?

Thanks.
Last edited by SileX on Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:38 am

I think that this product is 5400 rpm accross the board, and their marketing bullshit is just that, they can claim "5400 to 7200 rpm" even though the drive never spins above 5400 rpm because its performance is "equivalent to a 7200 rpm drive".

This would be very similar to the marketing stunt that AMD pulled years ago (and is still using), they pick a number to "suggest" performance, as we all know spindle speed just like clock speed is not the only performance indication.

This would fit in with their claim mentioning 5400 rpm, because that would substanciate their "green power" name and branding, and testing proving they have a low power drive.


Andy

whiic
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:48 pm
Location: Finland

Post by whiic » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:54 am

No, it's mbnet.fi
It's a webpage of a Finnish computer magazine, MikroBitti, which (according to wiki) is most sold computer magazine in Scandinavia.

I'd remove the http-prefix from your address because now it's a link... a link which definitely doesn't relate to subject.

The retailer where I ordered WD GP 1TB was multitronic.fi
It operates in Finland but website also says the following:
"International:
International orders are subject to agreement with the customer."

...so at least they don't say they won't do it. Many other retailers explicitly mention they don't ship to other countries.

And the price was actually 265.05 eur, thus total cost of 272 or 273 after shipping (decided to pay in advance so I saved 3 euros).

I had my Samsung F1 preordered from verkkokauppa.com which also is a Finnish retailer.

SileX
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:57 am

Post by SileX » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:49 am

whiic,

Thanks and done!

gb115b
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:47 am
Location: London

Post by gb115b » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:58 am

i keep reading rumours its about 6000 RPM...

i even saw a posting about people over-volting the drive to get more speed!

maybe that's the future for us silent freaks...undervolting out hard drives... :D

halcyon
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 1115
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:52 am
Location: EU

Post by halcyon » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:31 am

whiic, thanks for the tip on the store. Just ordered 2 for myself. I hope these babies last. The power draw seems to be promisingly low and I'm hoping the acoustics will be as well. I'm also tired of waiting for F1s to arrive.

quielb
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:14 pm
Location: Chico, California

Post by quielb » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:12 pm

Best Buy has the Hitachi 1TB drives on sale for $250. Picked one up today should be here in about a week.

SileX
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:57 am

Post by SileX » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:03 am

quielb wrote:Best Buy has the Hitachi 1TB drives on sale for $250. Picked one up today should be here in about a week.
Thanks. Amazing! It was $600 two months ago. Competition is great! Well, it is now sold out:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... 2880158065

These drives should be $99 soon, which is the top-capacity standard price. I rather wait for the review of them all including the:

Samsung SpinPoint F1 1000GB 32MB SATA II (HD103UJ) <-- 3 platters!!!

I WANT THE QUIETEST COOLEST POSSIBLE.

Lensman
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:15 am

Post by Lensman » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:06 pm

SileX wrote:Well, it is now sold out
Don't feel bad. It sold out on the first day.

BTW, the three platters may make a big difference, but I think the fact that the WD drives are 5400 RPM may be the biggest difference of all.

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:14 pm

Samsung F1 drives are now listed at OCUK.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/productli ... &subid=940

I was going to post earlier that just the 750GB drives were listed, but since the problems with the SPCR forum seem to have been fixed I can now say that the 750GB AND the 1TB drives are now listed, both "pre-order", there was a 3 week waiting time for the Seagate 1TB and a 1 week wait for the WD 1TB, I doubt that this will be too long otherwise they wouldnt be listing them.

However, to my dissapointment the drive is listed at a price above what I was expecting, mostly because all new top end drives are expensive for the first 2-3 months, and this is 2-3 months late. I was expecting this to be £200 inc VAT by now :cry:

Anyway that is of no concern as I am skint and wont be buying one until next year when they are cheaper (I hope), and competition is always good for the consumer (given 2-3 months after a hard release).


Andy

Firetech
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 680
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:50 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by Firetech » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:14 pm

andyb wrote:Samsung F1 drives are now listed at OCUK.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/productli ... &subid=940

I was going to post earlier that just the 750GB drives were listed, but since the problems with the SPCR forum seem to have been fixed I can now say that the 750GB AND the 1TB drives are now listed, both "pre-order", there was a 3 week waiting time for the Seagate 1TB and a 1 week wait for the WD 1TB, I doubt that this will be too long otherwise they wouldnt be listing them.

However, to my dissapointment the drive is listed at a price above what I was expecting, mostly because all new top end drives are expensive for the first 2-3 months, and this is 2-3 months late. I was expecting this to be £200 inc VAT by now :cry:
Andy
The one they've listed is the 32Mb version, so the 16Mb version (102UJ) will be slightly cheaper if that makes you feel any better... :D

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:19 am

The one they've listed is the 32Mb version, so the 16Mb version (102UJ) will be slightly cheaper if that makes you feel any better... Very Happy
From what ive seen the difference is around £5 at the most, so I wouldnt bother getting the cheaper one. If it was £20 I would because thats 10% of the drive, or most of an Antec MX-1 caddy that I want to put the drive into and will need to buy anyway.


Andy

Goldmember
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:16 am
Location: U.S.A.

Post by Goldmember » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:07 am

Regarding the GreenPower, I feel like a fool.

I guess Western Digital Corp is using the Nvidia/AMD business model. They should change their name to We Deceive Corp, as in, we like to deceive our customers as much as we can.

All they had to say was something like... Introducing WD GreenPower hard drives: Quiet, Energy-Efficient 5400rpm hard drives with near-7200rpm performance.

That's all. :roll:

And their silence on the platter count really makes me wonder...cue the song.

Telstar
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: Italy

Post by Telstar » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:50 pm

Why do you guys care so much about rotational speed?
The GP is silent, energy saver and a decent performer. Why bother about anything else?

bystander
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:18 pm

Post by bystander » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:00 pm

Has anyone actually tried the 1TB WD GP? Is it really that quiet? How does it compare to the current WD5000AAAKS and Sammy HD501LJ?

High capacity + low noise + low power = winner

Performance is not in my equation :D

Telstar
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: Italy

Post by Telstar » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:13 pm

bystander wrote:Has anyone actually tried the 1TB WD GP? Is it really that quiet? How does it compare to the current WD5000AAAKS and Sammy HD501LJ?

High capacity + low noise + low power = winner

Performance is not in my equation :D
And low price (or anyway lower than the seagate for me) :)
I will get it in a couple weeks for my new htpc.

I dont have those drives to compare, but I have an external seagate 7200.10 750gb capacity that seems quiet to me.

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:05 am

Why do you guys care so much about rotational speed?
The GP is silent, energy saver and a decent performer. Why bother about anything else?
A lot of people will be very pissed off, mostly because WD appear to be lying to them.

If they are indeed lying about the specs and the drive never spins faster than 5400 rpm and the mention of 7200 rpm is bullshit, then people will return the drives.

For example OCUK state the drive is a 7200 rpm drive, the customer could return the drive because the information that led to the end user buying that drive over another is wrong, the customer could also claim FREE delivery for the replacements and free collection for the WD, this is going to hit the bottom line of the reseller, and they are going to pass it onto WD, who will loose money.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showprodu ... subcat=940

Either Storage Review are wrong or WD are lying, either way this could cause problems for lots of people including SPCR'ers who have bought this drive due to the storage review review and it turns out that their drive is not a 5400 rpm model.

WD need a bit of transparency.


Andy

klankymen
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 1069
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Munich, Bavaria, Europe

Post by klankymen » Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:32 am

so..... I've been looking through this thread, and am kinda confused by the RPM numbers and such...

but more importantly, what's the conclusion? What is the 1TB drive to buy these days for a fileserver?

Telstar
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: Italy

Post by Telstar » Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:42 am

klankymen wrote:so..... I've been looking through this thread, and am kinda confused by the RPM numbers and such...

but more importantly, what's the conclusion? What is the 1TB drive to buy these days for a fileserver?
Well the conclusion for me is pretty obvious. The most silent 1TB drive is the WD GP. I trust SR review more than WD anyway :)

SileX
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:57 am

Post by SileX » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:19 am

Telstar wrote:
klankymen wrote:so..... I've been looking through this thread, and am kinda confused by the RPM numbers and such...

but more importantly, what's the conclusion? What is the 1TB drive to buy these days for a fileserver?
Well the conclusion for me is pretty obvious. The most silent 1TB drive is the WD GP. I trust SR review more than WD anyway :)
Unless this one turns out to be better:

Samsung SpinPoint F1 1000GB 32MB SATA II (HD103UJ) <-- 3 platters!!!

Post Reply