The myth of "too much thermal paste"

al bundy · Post by **al bundy** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:53 pm

Mr. Thompson wrote:al bundy - Great user name.

Starting with a thin layer is best. Given a flat CPU and well finished heatsink, a translucent layer is all that is necessary.

Thanks for your reply.

Based on the above comments, it sounds like some builders are actually using a much larger amount of TIM than necessary, believing that the heatsink application pressure just forces-out the extra TIM anyway.

Is there any reason why this approach is a bad idea, other than the fact that the extra forced-out TIM gets wasted?

Talz · Post by **Talz** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:43 pm

From my experiences, and what I've seen from others it varies by paste. But a thin layer as described by the AS instructions is almost always best, and nothing is always worst. As for reusing compound, it's something to be very careful about. There's both contamination as mentioned and the fact some TIM's will just not apply properly after having been heated/dried/cooled quite a few times.

Sam Williams · Post by **Sam Williams** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:21 am

Well - if nothing else, this thread has motivated me to reapply my own Arctic Silver II interface. It had been in place since I assembled my system (Athlon 1GHz @ 1.1 GHz) in early 2001.

My Folding@Home plateau temperature is down from 70C to 58C... Superb!

On the whole too-much-is-bad debate, I'm with the "use a lot" camp. That's what I did - a big blob on my core, another on my heatsink, rub the heatsink blob around to make it flat, and mount.

luminous · Post by **luminous** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:28 am

Once people have finished discussing the various pros and cons of TIM applicaton how about this being summed up and posted as a sticky here in the CPU section.

I'm sure lots of people come here and wonder just how to do apply exactly the right amound of TIM. The instructions that are on Arctic Silver's site are good, but seem different to a few people's practical findings.

Of course to top it all off would be a picture of a CPU core with exactly the right amount of TIM applied. I don't mind summing up this topic into a single sticky, and would happily provide a picture if I ever manage the "perfect TIM application".

If people can remember any other really good TIM applicaton threads, how about popping a link to them here to make it a little easier to help sum things up for a sticky? Like I say I don't mind organising things into a post or little article. What do you all think?

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:37 am

luminous wrote:
Of course to top it all off would be a picture of a CPU core with exactly the right amount of TIM applied.

This is what I shoot for. Enough to cover, but just thin enough so you can see the color of the IHS underneath. There's enought to cover well, but not so much that it squishes out the sides when you seat the heatsink.

luminous · Post by **luminous** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:01 pm

wow, thats nicely applied. I've never managed to get a thin layer like that no matter how long I try. What's your favourite method for getting a finish like that?

I'm currently running my processor with the Arctic Silver Ceramique application technique. That's a thin line of paste down the centre of the chip. As soon as I manage to post a web page I will link you all a little piccie.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:27 pm

Ralf, did you use a razor to apply it? Does a credit card work just as well?

luminous · Post by **luminous** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 2:25 pm

right this is a big moment for me, so be kind

I've just made my first ever web page (well its just a single jpeg

)

Here is the piccie of my CPU with TIM before it got squashed by my HSF

http://andy.romar.users.btopenworld.com/106_0687.JPG

dukla2000 · Post by **dukla2000** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:52 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:This is what I shoot for.

Ralf - what do your CPU & heatsink look like when you remove the heatsink?

Based on this thread I have changed my technique from a 'line' in the middle to a thin layer with a credit card across the entire (AMD/small) slug. It gives me the confidence to effectively use less paste, but has made no measurable/noticable difference to my temps.

lm · Post by lm » Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:10 pm

Perhaps wumpus's problem was reusing used thermal paste. At least when i removed my hsf and then was too lazy to reapply the arctic silver, just looked at the surfaces and saw that they were covered, reinstalled the hsf and temps got up several degrees.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:47 pm

That(like Ralf)'s exactly how I do my TIM; I use a plastic spoon.

-Ed

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:02 am

luminous wrote:wow, thats nicely applied. I've never managed to get a thin layer like that no matter how long I try. What's your favourite method for getting a finish like that?

We've discussed this in depth once or twice before, but I'll try and summarize:

- I've always followed Arctic Silver's directions on how to use their TIM ever since I first started building my own systems (back when there was only "Arctic Silver [1]"). I figured they probably know what they're talking about and I don't know diddly about TIM and it's application.

- I use a plastic credit card to spread it with. I've never wanted to take my chances of scratching the core/IHS with a metal razor blade.

- Per AS's detailed instructions, I've always spread a thin layer completely over the die/IHS before installing the heatsink.

- I use acetone (bought for about $8/gallon at the hardware store) followed by Iso Alcohol to clean the CPU and heatsink.

- When AS Ceramique came out I kept applying it the same way I applied good 'ol AS, AS2 and ASIII in the past, I spread a very thing layer evenly across the die/IHS.

- Some months after starting to use Ceramique I wandered back to AS's site and noticed that they had revised all their application instructions, and that the ones for Ceramique directed the user to aply a small blob in the center of the die/IHS and let the heatsink spread it out. I have yet to try it this way. Maybe someday, but I haven't got up the courage to try it yet. It seems counter-intuative in some aspects.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:13 am

dukla2000 wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote:This is what I shoot for.
Ralf - what do your CPU & heatsink look like when you remove the heatsink?

Based on this thread I have changed my technique from a 'line' in the middle to a thin layer with a credit card across the entire (AMD/small) slug. It gives me the confidence to effectively use less paste, but has made no measurable/noticable difference to my temps.

A picture would really be worth a thousand words here, but since I don't have one you'll have to be content with my flowery prose.

It looks like you applied it the way it shows in my picture, then smashed the IHS realy, really] hard with a big flat mallet. It gets super thin, almost watery looking in most areas, and some places have tiny little mounds of TIM that look like eentsy-beentsy little stalagtites/stalagmites depending if they're on the IHS or the heatsink. Next time I pull a heatsink I'll try and remember to take a pic.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:42 pm

luminous:
right this is a big moment for me, so be kind
I've just made my first ever web page (well its just a single jpeg

Congratulations on your first step into the world of html...

Nice page, not sure if I'd use that app techniqe, but it's better than some I've seen.
What are those hexnut looking items next to the CPU socket? HSF mounts? If so, that looks like a neat approach, tell us more like either where they came from or how you made them? How do they work in practice, and what hardware goes with them for holding down the HSF / block?

Gooserider

luminous · Post by **luminous** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:17 am

Those hexnuts are the standard mounts for my Thermalright HSF. They bolt through the motherboard to provide a sercure mounting point for a heavy heatsink.

The current Zalman approach relies on the Zif socket taking all the weight. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that you can mount the Zalman units without having to take your mobo out of your machine.

Here is a link to the review http://www.silentpcreview.com/article72-page1.html

arman68 · Post by **arman68** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:15 pm

flyingsherpa wrote:don't forget that Dell uses NO THERMAL paste at all and they have tons of pretty quiet computers out there that aren't overheating.

Actually that's a myth: I have installed quite a lot of Dell desktops, workstations and servers over the years, and with each new model I had a close look at their cooling and heatsinks before powering them on for the first time.

Until recently Dell were mostly using the cheap metal thing stuck on the heatsink, but recently with faster model they seem to be using a silver paste - quite similar to AS3 - very carefully applied.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:23 pm

luminous wrote:The current Zalman approach relies on the Zif socket taking all the weight. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that you can mount the Zalman units without having to take your mobo out of your machine.

It does? That's news to me

Nowhere_man · Post by **Nowhere_man** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:00 pm

I have just received my Zalman 7000A-Cu kit and reading this thread I thought I'd ask if anyone can share his experience with the Zalman thermal paste included in the kit.
I intend to use it if possible.

When I put a Zalman 7000a-Cu on my XP2700 (no shim, I never use a shim) I used the Zalman provided paste and followed their instructions, with the paste at my comfort level of thickness, similar to Ralf's picture, and it works gr8t.

I use single edge a razor blade to level it out on the cpu. It's a bit easier to do with the cpu in one hand and spread with the other but since I had the mobo out anyway I just left the cpu in the socket.

I use Acetone or 91% Isopropyl alcohol to clean the cpu and heatsink, depending on what I have to remove. TIMS come off better with acetone.

I had been using Antec Reference Silver paste on the previous heatsinks. I have never really liked it as it tends to seperate and is difficult to get level on the die. I think I'll try some of that Ceramique next time.

I think you should re-apply any paste at least once a year and try to avoid TIM's all together.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:05 pm

I think you should re-apply any paste at least once a year and try to avoid TIM's all together.

Er...huh?!?

Nowhere_man · Post by **Nowhere_man** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:23 pm

What I ment was avoid TIM pads all together, paste is fun. As for the annual thing, that's my personal preferance allthough I usually end up doing it several times a year for one reason or another

BTW I did briefly visit your site Ed.

samwc912 · Post by **samwc912** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:39 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote: - Some months after starting to use Ceramique I wandered back to AS's site and noticed that they had revised all their application instructions, and that the ones for Ceramique directed the user to aply a small blob in the center of the die/IHS and let the heatsink spread it out. I have yet to try it this way. Maybe someday, but I haven't got up the courage to try it yet. It seems counter-intuative in some aspects.

I've tried this for my new zalman 7000Al-cu 4 days ago, and i think it did its job quite well. Running at lowest speed, under folding my temp is 44 degree C. While under CPUburn: 52 c degree. Maybe these numbers seem high to some of you, but I had a Volcano 7+ before and the temps were 57 and 68 respectively.
Btw my cpu is a P4 2.6 oc@ 2.8c.

smifou · Post by **smifou** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:58 am

my own experience..
with as3.. putting alot of as3.. the paste would be push away.. so normal temp

a little..normal temp
but as3 would bleed out so high temp would be slowly back

with as5 which is more solid..
putting alot would give really high temp.. 75+ the paste would just not be pushed away
thin layer is the best temp i had yet and never bleed away

this is just my own experience

blackstar · Post by **blackstar** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:09 am

Edward Ng wrote:That also depends on the consistency of your TIM. The white crap that came with my Vantec Aeroflow will press out with ease, but the Arctic Silver V I have is far more viscous and it would take massive pressure to squeeze it out even close to as thin as it ought to be.

-Ed

have you tried warming the tube in hot water first?

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:10 am

At this point I find it no easier to submerge my tube of TIM in a tub of hot water in a very likely vain attempt to soften it up enough to apply it and squeeze it down to a "decent" amount with pressure than I would simply putting it on the right way; and the warm water bath still does not guarantee an optimum application of material like putting it on the right way will.

I say stop trying to screw around with the stuff and just do it like it's meant to be done.

-Ed

fractal · Post by **fractal** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:18 pm

Not enough, too much ... how bad either is depends on what you are using. I don't bother adding more goo when I change heat sinks when I am using good old fashion silicon goo. I just make sure there is still some, but not much, on the core and the heat sink after I have test mated them and removed the heat sink. I add another little dab if I see any bare spots and wipe up the excess if I see any gobs have squished out the side.

I am not sure you can get away with it using one of the overpriced, overhyped, aftermarket goos. I suspect you need to clean the heat sink, clean the processor, buy a brand new tube and start over... at least you I suspect that is what the snake oil vendors tell you.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:40 pm

Hey, just wanted to add to this thread, now that somebody's brought it back from the grave.

I just got a newer tube of ASV and it's not as thick as the first tube, so my first tube may have been screwed up or something. In fact, I have found that heavy heatsink pressure combined with excessive twisting and turning of the heatsink above will actually squeeze out so much of this thinner ASV as to cause a hazardous short-TIM situation.

So at this point, I'll admit that applying more than needed (by just a little) and simply squeezing it out can warrant merit, but you need to do it carefully so as not to squeeze out to much, and you need to also lift at least once to double-check that you got full coverage and contact between the die and sink.

Overall, if you don't mind the fact that doing it exactly right might yield you the extra 1 to 2C less heat, and you just have to be lazy (or are in some sort of rush), go ahead, put a little too much, squeeze it out, lift, double-check. It won't hurt. It just isn't optimal.

-Ed