P193 Case fan choice

[darunium]

Hi All,

I'm building a new rig in the Antec P193, which is quite spacious in general except when it comes to it's width. The 200mm side fan protrudes into the case, giving it only 150-152mm of clearance for the CPU cooler.

I've chased down a lot of air cooling options with good cooling at low noise, and am now bandying about two choices: the Scythe Big Shuriken or the Zalman CNPS9500 AT.

Taken from spcr articles, here is their noise to cooling data:

article964-page7

and

article267-page4.html

(sorry it won't let me post URLs yet, it won't even let me put the links in text form)

Assuming those tests are both at the same load (are they?), the CNPS9500AT is 2-3 degrees cooler at the same noise level (22dBA), but the real difference is that the Big Shuriken can get much quieter (lower fanspeeds), whereas the CNPS9500AT can cool much better (higher fanspeeds).

This is a tough call for me, since my situation is so: During operation, I don't care about noise level, it can be loud when the thing is running, but it will be in my bedroom so I want it to be quiet while it is on low load.

This would make the CNPS9500AT appealing since I can crank it up when I want to use it and OC the CPU, but when I'm sleeping at night drop the fan speed down when I don't need it.

On the flip side, it would make the Big shuriken appealing because I can drop the noise level down much lower than the CNPS9500AT (11-12dBA v. 22dBA) on the lowest settings.

So I guess the crux of the decision is: if the CNPS9500AT is quiet enough on low speed to sleep with it ~7ft away inside the P193, it will offer me better cooling when I need it, but if it is not quiet enough, then I should go with the Big Shuriken for the lower noise settings. Unfortunately, I can't open them up and install them to try out the noise before deciding, since I can't return them if they're opened

Thanks for any advice!
Darunium

[lodestar]

The Big Shuriken is designed as a low profile unit, far lower than you really need and for that reason it has a 120x12 fan instead of the normal 120x25 size. As you are intending to overclock, I would say buy the Big Shuriken and replace the fan with a normal size one such as this one http://www.frozencpu.com/products/10026 ... 2LM-P.html or this one http://www.frozencpu.com/products/10458 ... 2HPVC.html. Inevitably it will add to the cost, but the Shuriken is moderately priced. The Kaze-Jyuni's ability to switch between two PWM speed ranges might be well-suited to what you are looking for.

The PWM fan supplied with the Big Shuriken has a range of 650 to 1600, and at top speed supplies around 38 CFM. Either of the suggested replacements will supply that amount of air at around half that speed. So you should get a quieter idle. Equally under load the bigger fan will not need to speed up to anything like the revs of the standard Big Shuriken fan.

[darunium]

The Big Shuriken is designed as a low profile unit, far lower than you really need and for that reason it has a 120x12 fan instead of the normal 120x25 size. As you are intending to overclock, I would say buy the Big Shuriken and replace the fan with a normal size...

Wow thanks that is a fantastic idea. If the Big Shuriken has such admirable cooling power as is, with a good, quiet 120x25mm fan it should be fantastic and quiet. I think that would really meet my needs nicely. I imagine that with a 120mm it would also always have a quieter operation than the CNPS9500AT's 98mm. I wonder if it can acheive the 9500's cooling power though, even with a larger fan the 9500 has that great design, where you can rotate it to direct the flow of air towards your exhaust, I imagine that would really cut down on eddies whereas the Big Shuriken, with flow perpendicular to the exhaust, would probably increase turbulence. Still, that turbulence might be good for circulating air across the whole Mainboard, making sure there are no stagnant zones.

Will I require a different clip to put a 120x25mm fan on the Big Shuriken, or can I use the provided clip?

[lodestar]

The existing clip will work fine with either of the two fans suggested.

[quest_for_silence]

Wrong topic apart, you have enough space for a lot of very good CPU heatsinks.

Among the SPCR preferred ones, there are the Scythe Mugen 2, Ninja 2, Zipang 2, Orochi and Kabuto, plus the Noctua U12 and C14; among the low profile ones (I guess you don't need them), the Cooler Master Germini IIS and the Nexus LOW7000 R2.

Besides you may use any "92mm class" heatsink, such as Scythe Mini Ninja, Noctua U9, or Xigmatek 964, and any hi-end top down cooler such as Thermalright AXP and SI-128, or similar design.

Regards,
Luca

[darunium]

Thanks Quest,

I did actually look at a lot of those, unfortunately for one reason or anoterh all the scythe ones were eliminated. I was unimpressed by the reviews of the Zipang 2 and the and Ninja 2, and while Kabuto will fit because of its design it seems to require some good clearance for proper cooling. Are you sure that the Mugen 2 and Orochi will fit? They're specs put them more than 152mm high, which I don't think will fit into the P193. The Noctua U12 I also believe is too large, and I can't find the Noctua C14.

[quest_for_silence]

while Kabuto will fit because of its design it seems to require some good clearance for proper cooling.

I have one inside a NSK3480, it cools a lot more than adequately and there's no clearance at all.

Are you sure that the Mugen 2 and Orochi will fit? They're specs put them more than 152mm high, which I don't think will fit into the P193. The Noctua U12 I also believe is too large, and I can't find the Noctua C14.

I'm currently pretty sure.

Noctua NH-U12 (158mm)

Scythe Yasya (159mm) Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Regards,
Luca

EDIT: I've corrected the URIs of the second and third images (to ImageShack), while adding a direct link to the relative reviews.

[darunium]

wow, does that mean that there's more like 158mm of clearance? Antec Customer support would only verify 145mm, but someone verified 150-152mm, and that Noctua you have in there is specc'd as 155mm.

So, do you think that the Noctua is falsely specc'd, or do you think that the P193 has more like 155mm of clearance?

I just got my case, but not the mobo yet, I'd like to measure the clearance but I'm not quite sure how to manage that hah, what I might do is measure the clearance to where the side would be, and then measure the impingement of the big boy fan.

[darunium]

If I can fit 155+mm fans in the P193, the Scythe Orochi seems like a tempting option (although it's not 1366 compatible, and xoxide doesn't have an adapter bracket on offer for it...)

Still, I wonder what are your impressions of airflow in the P193? The Big Shuriken seems like a really solid choice for the case because not only is it really quiet with efficient cooling, but with the low form factor it seems like it will allow air to flow nicely from the front of the case and side 200mm fan up through the exhausts, pulling out air from that flow and spilling it back out back into the flow, whereas a larger CPU cooler will be a barrier to airflow, and the fan on, for example the Orochi, will have to pull air through.

That said the Orochi runs 10dBA lower at the same cooling as the Scythe Big Shuriken in FrostyTech's testing, so it seems hard for the Big Shuriken to compete even with a larger fan.

The Scythe Zipang 2 seems like another good option now that I have access to frostytech (I tried a couple days last week and the site appeared to be down), seems like just a better but larger Big Shuriken, which might be perfect for my needs, although with the 1366 mount it's 63 bucks, whereas the Big Shuriken with a nice new fan will only be 52, plus I already have the Big Shuriken which just makes life easier.

In either case, sorry for rambling, it's just a tough call between the different options. The big Shuriken with a fan of my choice still seems like a great option, but if one of the other choices suggested will offer me superior cooling and quieter or as quiet operation, I should probably go through the minor hassle of tracking one of those down.

[quest_for_silence]

wow, does that mean that there's more like 158mm of clearance? Antec Customer support would only verify 145mm, but someone verified 150-152mm, and that Noctua you have in there is specc'd as 155mm.

So, do you think that the Noctua is falsely specc'd, or do you think that the P193 has more like 155mm of clearance?

First of all I can just confirm that Antec support is very conservative but also they are not very consistent to divulge these data: they told me that the maximum CPU heatsink/fan height is 140mm (half a cm less than what they told you).

I may only repeat what mr. Joe Evans from Legit Reviews on Thu, Apr 01, 2010 has written:

«...The 200mm Big Boy side fan works well but barely, and I mean barely, allowed enough room for the Noctua NH-U12P SE1366 CPU cooler. They actually butt up against each other. Unfortunately, there was no way to get a good picture of this but suffice it to say that it fits...»

See: http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1261/4/ for the relative pictures (please take note that SPCR and Noctua specified the U12 up to 158mm, not 155).

Currently I have no actual clue that ReDLine PC findings (with the 159mm Yasya) could be wrong.

Regards,
Luca

[quest_for_silence]

The big Shuriken with a fan of my choice still seems like a great option

I would never go with the Big Shuriken (I own one, but paired with a 605e) for an LGA1366 cpu: IMO it cannot be quiet with a 130W Bloomfield, whichever might be your fan of choice.

More probably that not, neither the greater Kabuto (I own one, paired with an E5200), nor the larger Zipang2 would suffice (see SPCR charts).

Regards,
Luca

[quest_for_silence]

Currently I have no actual clue that ReDLine PC findings (with the 159mm Yasya) could be wrong.

Another evidence of more probably that not lack of accuracy from Antec support:

Zalman CNPS9900LED - 158.5mm - inside the P193

Regards,
Luca

P.S.: maybe you've not looked so good around, haven't you?

[quest_for_silence]

Actually it has to be said that the Antec Support clearly claims and reaffirm that:

...we do state in the main page of the P193 that this case will only support 140mm heatsink/fan. The tests that the reviewers have done with our case most likely did not try to install the left side panel...

In fact right now we can read so there (always those 5mm less than they told you), and even if there are still a few doubts (at least three) left to me.

Regards,
Luca

[darunium]

Thanks Luca!

I did actually look around a great deal, but I was looking at forum posts on the question, I didn't think to look at what people actually had in their cases, great idea.

Thanks for the input. Looking around at other options, I actually ended up returning the Big Shuriken and the replacement fan (which, despite great reviews, wasn't a PWM and for my needs I am certain PWM is the way to go), and instead bought a new heatsink after perusing FrostyTech's site that was in stock at my local microcenter, the Scythe Grand Kama Cross.

While general reviews of the GKC were middling, I think that it will be perfect for my needs; it was praised for a really quiet low fanspeed (beaten only by the Orochi in FrostyTech's testing), but a merely mediocre noise:cooling ratio at high fanspeed. For my needs, this seems like the perfect situation, since my noise concern is when I'm sleeping but the computer is operating, meaning at low fan speeds I need it quiet, but at high fan speed I only need it cool, the noise isn't as much of a concern to me.

So, at 50 bucks readily available from my local dealer, the Grand Kama Cross seemed like a solid way to go. Does this seem like a reasonable choice, or would you guys advise a different option? Now that I see the CNPS9900 fitting, I'm impressed, and that opens up a lot of options. I'm still honestly surprised though, since users on other forums with the P193 have come up with that ~150mm headspace. The pics you found are convincing, but could those users be operating the case open?

I think I should get down and just measure the gap for myself to see what it's actually looking like. The MoBo hasn't arrived yet, but I could approximate its height. I'll report my findings here.

[darunium]

So I measured the inside of the case last night and had an interesting result, there is indeed almost exactly 152mm of total clearance between the CPU and the side-fan.

I suspect that in the images above the side fan was removed, which gives you an extra 13mm, making a huge difference.

So, with the side fan in the case, there is only 152mm for a heatsink This is unfortunately an awkward number, since it is right on the cusp of a *lot* of 158mm heatsinks. Removal of the side fan, though, gives you the extra space needed for the *vast* majority of cpu coolers i.e. most tower coolers.

I'm going to stick with the side fan, my CPU OC'ing needs are limited, and the nice even cooling power on the whole mainboard of the side fan is more important to me than the CPU sink, so for me the Grand Kama Cross still seems like a winner. It doesn't have the best cooling power or the best noise:cooling ratio at high speeds, but at its low end it is very quiet, and at its high end it seems to effectively cool a 150W chip, so I'm confident that it will do what I need it to do.

Still, I'm very open to any other suggestions that come under 152mm height that could do a solid job of cooling an LGA1366 slot. I could go with liquid cooling, but frankly I'm nervous about getting water near my system. LN2 is a different story, but that seems excessive at the moment. In a couple years time, I'd certainly be interested in trying to squeeze more out of the CPU with a 3.8-4GHz OC, but until then (and perhaps even then?) I'm hoping the Grand Kama Cross will do what I need it to do.

Still, it remains to be seen if it will fit on my mainboard...

[quest_for_silence]

I suspect that in the images above the side fan was removed, which gives you an extra 13mm, making a huge difference.

When I spoke about my residual doubts on Antec states, I said so because I've already talked directly with the three reviewers.

Mr. Evans from Legit Reviews told me that the reviewed set is its current PC, so it's actually using a Noctua NH-U12P SE inside the Antec P193.

Mr. Thomas from Overclockers Online and the Staff of ReDLine PC explicitly told me that they have run their tests with the side fan in place, and therefore that the Zalman CNPS-9900 and Scythe Yasya actually fit into the Antec P193 when closed.

Mr. Thomas also added that he means the Zalman fits as the CPU socket isn't exactly under the side fan, so at least with its Biostar TPower he's had no clearance issues.

The Zalman in the closed Antec (O2)

Removal of the side fan, though, gives you the extra space needed for the *vast* majority of cpu coolers i.e. most tower coolers.

If in case, removal of the Big Boy would give you mainly some extra quietness.

I've just a bit of experience with Antec fans, but I've never found one enough quiet: before stickin' on the Solo, I got the venerable 900, and its top 200mm fan (if it's still the same of your P193) wasn't quiet at all.

Moreover, if you look at SPCR review of the Antec 902, you may note that its 200mm fan is 3dB louder than the 120mm ones (page 5), without any effect on cooling (page 6, temperatures remain the same).

Still, I'm very open to any other suggestions that come under 152mm height that could do a solid job of cooling an LGA1366 slot.

Any such an heatsink prolly won't handle quietly an oc'ed Bloomfield: so the Grand Kama Cross (or a Kabuto, or a Zipang 2), should perform (in that condition) on par of any "small size" competitor.

Please take also note that with cpu PWM fans most of the "real" job is made by the mobo logic, and not (only) by the fan itself: on an infamous DFI, with my Big Shuriken I've had to swap the relative fan header, as the 4pin one won't let me dial it down under 800rpm (while with a 3pin case fan header now I run it at 250rpm). On the contrary, on a MSI mobo I may run the Kabuto's fan directly at 300rpm through the 4pin header.

However, the biggest ones among the "small size" heatsinks (so allegedly the best cooling performers) should be the Scythe Ninja 2 - 152mm - (unfortunately SPCR haven't updated their review for use with the i7), and the Zalman CNPS 10X Flex - 151mm - (which may sports two fans, if in case), but definitely it may not worth to bet on them.

Maybe interesting could be some double fan smaller heatsinks, such as the Noctua U9 SE2, or the Cooler Master N520: but they are pretty expensive (moreover you have to swap the fans of the CM to work quietly).

Even a Mini Ninja might be modded with new clips to sport two 92mm fans (again, at a cost barely justifiable).

Regards,
Luca

[darunium]

Thanks for the great insight as always Luca,

Here's what I ended up doing, I looked into the Scythe Ninja 2 and the CNPS10X Flex that you suggested, as opposed to the Scythe Grand Kama Cross. Because the Ninja 2 doesn't have a PWM fan header and I'm not sure the 10X Flex will fit when a fan is attached (the heatsink dimensions fit, but images I've looked at seem like a 120mm fan will actually stick out a little above it, hard to tell though I'm not sure of that), I ended up just going with the Grand Kama Cross. The Zalman CNPS9900 I also considered and looked at a lot of reviews, and while the cooling beats the GKC, its low-speed noise loses out, which is obviously important to me.

The result is that with the GKC in the system at stock speeds my cooling seems sufficient, here's where I'm at:

(again, I only care about idle noise and load cooling, not idle cooling beyond minimum or load noise)

(this is all with no additional case fans, only the ones included with the P193: 3 exhaust [2x140mm on top, 1x120mm in back], and 1 intake 200mm side fan. I purchased one more 120mm 800RPM@12V 3-pin Scythe Slip Stream for the front intake to improve flow into the case, although as is when I put my hand in front of the case front air intake I feel breeze blowing in.)

Room Ambient ~21C

- At idle with all the fans turned down, cooling seems sufficient with the CPU at 38-42C (HDDs in low-mid 30s, case ambient 37-42C)

- At idle with all the fans turned up, CPU at 34-38C

- At 100% CPU load (Prime95) with all the fans turned up, CPU at mid-50s

(Temperatures measured with SpeedFan, RealTemp, and Asus's monitoring utility)

I should also mention that I think I added WAY too much thermal paste, so at some point I may take off the heatsink, redistribute the paste, and put it back on to see if that helps with temps. I'm hoping it'll just kind of work itself out has the GKC is a super hassle to take on and off while in the case due to its wide profile.

Are these operating temperatures acceptable?




In terms of idle, low-fan-speed noise, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I slept with it last night OK, but I could still hear it from my bed. It isn't loud, in that if you are not asleep, you won't hear or notice it, but when you lie down and there's no cars passing at night, it is still audible from 10ft away, and if possible I'd like to try and get it below that.

Dissecting the noise, here's what I've got (from 10ft away and closer reexamination from right in the case):

I've discerned, I think, 2 real problem noises from 10ft. One is a type of whistle, higher pitched than other tones but not truly high pitched, while the other is a similar pitch range, perhaps a little lower, but more of a drone. From observation:
- The HDDs are inaudible
- The side fan is not bothersome, you can make out it's low drone but it is very low and very soft, even set on medium.
- The case exhaust fans are audible, albeit quite a low tone. Subjectively, from 10ft away, they are slightly below whisper-level
- The CPU fan (140mm on the GKC) is similar to the case fans when down at 500rpm.
- The GPU fan (HD5850 OEM) I *think* is generating one of the two problem noises, it is a small 92mm fan that, getting my ear close as possible to it, I think is generating the second noise I mentioned above. It's hard to be sure though because as I get closer to the case, the problem sounds become more delocalized.
- The other sound, the whistling, I think may be an actual whistle in the case. I can't tell where it's coming from, and it is present even when the case is open on one side.
Turning the case and CPU fans up has zero effect on the two primary problem noises, I will try turning the GPU fan down manually to see what effect that has.
- I don't know what kind of noise the PSU is making except up close. Up close to the back of it there is a high pitched noise coming from inside (CP-1000), but that is totally lost from 3-5ft away. The fan I can't detect anything other than a soft low drone.

EDIT: I added the Scythe Slip Stream 800rpm fan in front of the case. CPU temperatures were brought down only 1-2C. The noise of Antec fans at low speed seems about the same up close, so replacing them may not yield any sound improvement.

So that about sums it up. I may just try to live with it as is, or see if turning the GPU fan down helps. I considered trying to swap out the CPU heatsink, but it seems like it meets my cooling and noise needs at the moment (as well as anything that is, I don't know how it would hold up to CPU OC'ing, but as you mentioned there's not a lot in that height limitation that will quietly, although I don't care about noise when OCíng), so that doesn't really solve the problem, how to get the low-fan-speed, idle CPU overall system noise down further.

Another strong consideration of mine is swapping out the three antec TriSpeed exhaust fans with quieter PWM case fans (although my MoBo only has 3 non-COU fan headers, and I want to put one in the front, and the MoBo females are all 3-pin...), but I don't know if those are really the culprits, and how much I could gain. The 800rpm Scythe Slip Stream will be a good test, if that is greatly quieter than the Antec TriSpeeds, then swapping will start to seem like a solid idea.

Another possibility I considered but have no basis for is: could changing the CPU heatsink reduce system noise (at *idle,* so already low temps) even if the heatsink itself doesn't get any quieter? I'm thinking, in particular, of the 'whistling' noise I'm encountering.

Anyway, thanks for the help and insight, I hope my experience and this insight will benefit others as well.

[darunium]

Sorry for the long exposition on the last post, but here is an update:

After sleeping with it a few days, I think I can live with the current noise levels. To reduce noise in the future I plan on possibly taking steps in this order:
- replacing the stock GPU heatsink with an aftermarket one with a larger fan.
- replacing the case 140mm TriCool exhaust fans with some other 140mm fans and controlling the speed via 3-pin connections on the MoBo. Can't find a good 140mm fan roundup, but I've heard good things about the Scythe Kaze Maru.
- Removing the 200mm side fan, seeing how that effects cooling, and possibly replacing the CPU heatsink if necessary.

I considered getting rid of the case entirely and giving up on sound reduction, getting an Antec 1200 or something, not sure what I'd do about the computer being in my bedroom... Decided it wasn't worth the hassle of shipping back to Amazon and getting a new case, reinstalling etc.


So it seems like I'll live with it as it is.

There's one problem exception, and that's with the PSU. I believe I mentioned before that there was a single very very high pitched noise emitted from it's back but that it didn't reach the bed, I was wrong it does reach the bed and is supremely annoying. I'm going to call Antec and ask them to resolve the issue, I'm hoping they will replace it and that the new unit will not suffer from this problem.

Does anyone know what in a PSU could generate a very high pitched noise?

[quest_for_silence]

Can't find a good 140mm fan roundup, but I've heard good things about the Scythe Kaze Maru.

I'm using a 140mm SlipStream (500rpm), and imvho it's almost as good as the 120mm one (which is nearly inaudible at 30cm).

Regards,
Luca

P.S.: I guess you don't need a 1kW PSU with your current set-up: any 5-700W "SPCR Editor's Choice" PSU would work flawlessly (and more probably that not substantially quieter).

[darunium]

Thanks!

I'll try to track down those 140mm slip streams then, maybe I can find one at the local store to give a try to see how its noise reduction is.

The fan on the CP-1000 hasn't been a bother, what's troublesome is the very high-pitched ringing. It's soft, but still very annoying due to its high tone. I'll call Antec and report what they have to say. I'm hoping that it is an anomoly, not a normal part of the unit function.

I went with the 1kW unit so that I would have a CF option in the future without having to change PSUs, I figure PSU technology isn't going to change much, and at $130 the CP-1000 seemed like a great unit (even though it really only has 840W on the +12v rails, unlike the corsair TX units which are within 30-40W on the +12v rail of their advertised power and go way over their advertised power at total power across all voltages), the CP-850 got praised for its low noise in reviews, and people reported the CP-1000 was much the same.

[quest_for_silence]

I went with the 1kW unit so that I would have a CF option in the future without having to change PSUs

Even if it may not impact your actual situation, I guess you should consider power requirements in a more realistic way: look - as examples - at PC Perspective, Anandtech, or Legit Reviews, or even Tom's Hardware findings.

Regards,
Luca

[quest_for_silence]

I ended up just going with the Grand Kama Cross.

With reference to recent SPCR findings, you prolly ended up with one among the best solutions (I guess better than Ninja or Zalman).

Regards,
Luca