Panaflo vs. SmartCool

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:15 pm

I have a dual-P3 system that currently has the stock coolers on. I am about to replace them with a pair of Thermalright AX-7 heatsinks and an 80mm fan on each. The question is... which fans should I use?

I have tried all of the purported low-noise fans out there that are not variable speed, from the PCP&C Silencer to the Papst NGML, and the Panaflo is definitely the quietest to my ears. I could just take a fan-mate and stick it on the Panaflo to get a constant low speed. However, I'm also considering using a variable-speed fan.

Has anybody hooked a variable speed fan like the Antec Smartcool to their motherboard as a CPU fan? How does it work? Is the thermal sensor actually in the fan, or is it reading temperature info from the motherboard? Is it effective at sensing the processor's temperature and keeping it cool when necessary and quiet when the load is down?

silvervarg · Post by **silvervarg** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:44 pm

How silent do you aim to go?
What is the noisiest component in the system that you plan to leave as it is?

The cheapest way for you to go very quiet would be to get 2 Panaflo 24V M1A and wire them in series. You won't even need any fanmates, and it will be very quiet.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:49 pm

I aim to go as silent as possible while maintaining reliability.

The noisiest component that I plan to leave as is would be the power supply, an Antec True550. There are three Panaflo case fans that are hooked into the "Fan Only" connectors of the PSU. Their speed is therefore controlled by the power supply.

I like the idea of thermally-controlled fans. This isn't a question of whether the Panaflo or the SmartCool will be quieter, but of whether or not the SmartCool can accurately and reliably cool the processor while being reasonably quiet due to its thermal controls.

silvervarg · Post by **silvervarg** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:11 am

You got quite a lot of fans in there.
I believe that is a 2 fan PSU, 3 chassi fans, 1 CPU fan.

A "typical" voltage out from Antec fan only connector at low load is ~6.5V if I remember correctly. If you are refering to 80mm L1A fans I guess these will be rather quiet at ~6.5V.
Are you using one of the chassi fans as intake fan? Perhaps to cool a HDD?

Can you hear the panaflo's over the PSU?

As CPU fan I think an 80mm L1A@5-6V should have no problem to cool the CPU, so there is not really any point in having a variable speed fan on that low power CPU's.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:35 am

Have you thought of using a big heatsink, like say the Thermalright 900A? It takes 80 or 92mm fans

.

Have you considered a quiet or fanless VGA cooler or replacing/quieting your HDD?

Unless you use filters, intake fans are redundant, what case are you using?

That PSU should be the loudest component in your system anyway.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 7:59 am

silvervarg wrote:You got quite a lot of fans in there.
I believe that is a 2 fan PSU, 3 chassi fans, 1 CPU fan.

2 CPU fans, actually, but that is all correct.

silvervarg wrote:A "typical" voltage out from Antec fan only connector at low load is ~6.5V if I remember correctly. If you are refering to 80mm L1A fans I guess these will be rather quiet at ~6.5V.
Are you using one of the chassi fans as intake fan? Perhaps to cool a HDD?

Yes. 2 of the fans are intake fans in front of the hard drives. I have 3 80GB Western Digital hard drives altogether. 1 fan is an exhaust fan directly beneath the power supply. The chassis fans are all Panaflo L1A fans, and being controlled by the PSU, they're extremely quiet.

silvervarg wrote:Can you hear the panaflo's over the PSU?

Nope.

silvervarg wrote:As CPU fan I think an 80mm L1A@5-6V should have no problem to cool the CPU, so there is not really any point in having a variable speed fan on that low power CPU's.

Right, thanks. The Panaflo it is, then.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:11 am

Trip wrote:Have you thought of using a big heatsink, like say the Thermalright 900A? It takes 80 or 92mm fans .

If you read my original post, I noted that I am using a Thermalright AX7, which takes an 80 mm fan. I will add that because of the layout of my motherboard, a 92mm hsf is too big to use.

Trip wrote:Have you considered a quiet or fanless VGA cooler or replacing/quieting your HDD?

I already have a fanless VGA adapter, and my HDDs are Western Digital 80GB drives mounted in rubber grommets to reduce vibration (a feature of the case).

Trip wrote:Unless you use filters, intake fans are redundant, what case are you using?

The case is a Kingwin KT-424-S-WM. The intake fans do have a filter, and they serve the secondary purpose of cooling the hard drives.

Trip wrote:That PSU should be the loudest component in your system anyway.

This isn't about the PSU, which I am happy with. It's about the processor fans. I am replacing the stock HSF that comes with the P3 and putting in a Thermalright AX7 with an 80mm fan. All I want to know is whether the Panaflo or the Smartcool is the better choice. I'm not interested in any other options, as I have narrowed it down to those two choices. Comments and suggestions about the rest of my system are moot because I am happy with everything but the CPU fans.

mrzed · Post by **mrzed** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:40 pm

I would think that the AX7 should be enough heatsink to deal with a PIII at stock speed (you didn't mention overclocking). You also didn't mention the speed of the chips, and if they are Tualatin or Coppermine. Makes a difference.

If it was me, I would try running at a steady 5-7volts each and just monitor temps. Or like mentioned, you could wire the 2 in series (I suspect L1A@6volts would be plenty).

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:35 pm

Sage, it sounds like you know a lot more about quiet computing than I did when I first found SPCR.

I use a Thermalright 800A on my Coppermine(24.5W) and it runs cool with a quiet fan at ~5V(as low as it'll startup). The 900A was too large for me as well. Good luck!

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:10 am

mrzed wrote:I would think that the AX7 should be enough heatsink to deal with a PIII at stock speed (you didn't mention overclocking). You also didn't mention the speed of the chips, and if they are Tualatin or Coppermine. Makes a difference.

Good point. No, I'm not overclocking -- stability is my main concern and overclocking reduces stability in most cases. Maybe in the future I will overclock if I have to. The chips are Tualatin 1.26 Ghz.

mrzed wrote:If it was me, I would try running at a steady 5-7volts each and just monitor temps. Or like mentioned, you could wire the 2 in series (I suspect L1A@6volts would be plenty).

Well, I'm trying to decide which fan to buy, which means testing is out of the question. Wiring the two fans in series is also not an option since I want to connect the fans to the 3-pin motherboard CPU fan headers, to facilitate RPM monitoring.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:36 am

Trip wrote:Sage, it sounds like you know a lot more about quiet computing than I did when I first found SPCR.

Heh, well, I'm sort of an old-timer... I actually was around a few years ago when SPCR first got started. I was a member of the old Yahoo! Groups silent computing mailing list, from which this site was sprung. So I've been doing this for a while. But this site really goes into a depth that we never reached on the old mailing list, so it's really a great one-stop resource.

Trip wrote:I use a Thermalright 800A on my Coppermine(24.5W) and it runs cool with a quiet fan at ~5V(as low as it'll startup). The 900A was too large for me as well. Good luck!

Thanks! I actually bought the AX7 units a long time ago before the 800A existed. I'm just pulling them out again to play.

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:28 am

I have a very similar question as Sage. I will be buying a Thermalright cooler soon and need to decide on a fan. Just like Sage, I want to connect a 80mm fan to the 3-pin motherboard CPU fan header to facilitate RPM monitoring.

I want to know the exact model of fan (not just a Panaflo, etc) to use that will give me a typical sound level of 20-22 dba of just the HS+F under a light to moderate load of P4 2.8 GHz CPU on an Intel 865PERLL motherboard. I will not be over-clocking.

The problem is that I don’t know how much voltage the motherboard will put out to the fan at a light/moderate load, and I don’t know exactly how a Panaflo fan reacts to lower voltages. I have also heard that I need to make sure that fan receives sufficient voltage to start.

Also, my normal source of Panaflo fans has them with only two leads, so I need a source that has the 3-pin motherboard connector with RPM monitoring.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:32 pm

You may consider a heatsink that accepts a 92mm fan. The Panaflo is not the quietest at 12V but is praised at SPCR for its ability to undervolt.

http://www.svc.com/pan80.html

Ralf cools a 3.0 P4 quietly with a 92mm fan. Ralf's P4 (he upgrades it on page 2 or 3 to a 3.0MHz and that really good Asus Deluxe mobo.

Oh, you probably won't be able to run the 80mmPanafloL1A below, I dunno, 7V and still cool the CPU under stress. The Panaflo probably starts up around 4 - 4.5V or so.

heatsink review and other heatsink review

CPU heat

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:07 am

Excuse my ignorance (I am new at this silent stuff), but I thought that the motherboard could vary the fan speed according to the temperature requirements. I guess not, especially with an Intel Motherboard.

So in looking the 92mm Panaflo FBA09A12L1BX that Ralph uses, it is rated at 42.7 CFM and 27 dB-A (12V). But I notice that fan overlaps the Thermalright quite a bit on one side, so I think an 80mm might be better at cooling the fins.

So if I look for a similar 80mm Panaflo, I find the FBA08A12M1BX which is rated at 32.1 CFM and 27 dB-A (12V). I am not that concerned about the lower CFM, because much more of the output hits the fins than on the 92mm.

Then it becomes a choice (for getting low noise) as whether to run:

- 80mm FBA08A12M1BX running at about 8V with Zalman Fanmate (rated at 32.1 CFM and 27 dB-A with 12V), or

- 80mm FBA08A12L1A at 12V which is rated at 24 CFM and 21 dB-A (apparently no monitoring available).

I don't know what the output or dB-A of the first option would be at 8V, and there also some other slightly higher output Panaflo fans available without monitoring.

Apparently the consensus seems to be that a high output 12V fan is quieter when run at 8V compared to a lower output fan running at 12V (same net CFM output of both fans)?

However, 21 dB-A seems (with the 80mm FBA08A12L1A) like it would be quiet enough for me without the need for a Zalman Fanmate to lower the voltage.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:34 am

I believe some motherboards can vary speed (esp. w/ help of software) - Intel may have problems though, AOpen is better, I think? Search the forums.

I think a 92 is still better but you make a good point. There was a comparison of the two in an SPCR heatsink review (maybe one I linked to?) that proves a 92mm works better than 80mm on one of the thermalright heatsinks. I bought a thermalright duct for my PC but didn't notice any difference.

Sigh, sorry to do this to you but could you list which components you have and which you plan to buy?

Have you seen this fan yet?

For 12V, the Nexus or Papst may be your best bets. Panaflo is best at sub12V - the Nexus is neck and neck with it and the Papst clicks when undervolted but wins awards when at 12V.

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:15 am

Planning to buy:

- Antec Sonata case
- D865PERL (L or K) Intel motherboard
- Intel Pentium 4 - 2.8C or 3.0C GHz 800MHz FSB
- Mushkin 184 Pin 1GB (512MBx2) DDR PC-3200
- Thermalright SLK-947U (or similar Thermalright model)
- 2 SAMSUNG 120GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drives
- CD-ROM burner/DVD combo (not sure model)
- Floppy Drive
- Creative Audigy 2 Sound card (not sure model)
- Video Card - big problem - still looking for a fast, reasonably quiet solution

I have a brand new spare Fortron FSP300-60PN 300W Power Supply, so I was considering getting a Sonata without PSU from Directron.com. I have used the Sonata on another system and am reasonably satisfied with PSU that comes with it (I know it’s not silent), but I do have the extra Fortron. But not sure if 300 watts is enough.

I am not looking for a completely silent system, just trying to build one that is fairly quiet. No over-clocking.

My main concern in this thread is the general question of whether to use a low RPM fan at 12V, or to use a higher RPM fan at reduced voltage (about 8V). Assuming that the CFM output of both fans was equalized by varying the voltage, what is the relative noise difference?

Obviously when comparing different brands of fans, the comparison is more complicated. But my general feeling is that 21 dB-A for the CPU fan is probably sufficient for my needs.

The Panaflo ball bearing fan you referenced in the link (FBK08A12M) looks to be similar to the 80mm FBA08A12M1BX with Hydro Wave bearing, but the ball bearing one is 1 dB-A higher in noise and 1 CFM higher in output.

Therax · Post by **Therax** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:13 pm

Let's try and not hijack the man's thread, shall we?

On your original question on Panaflo vs. Smartcool, I'm not very familiar with the Smartcool's noise levels or quality. However, the general concensus is that temperature variable fans can be considerably more intrusive than a quiet steady-state fan, because of the variability of the noise quality. All of the temperature-sensitive fans I've personally seen have a thermistor in the fan housing, and don't do any sort of communication with the motherboard. This may not be good enough for CPU cooling because of the difference and especially time lag between core temp changes and case temp changes around the vicinity of the fan, but I don't have any personal experience with a temperature-sensitive CPU fan.

On the other hand, if RPM monitoring is important to you, you should also be aware that the Panaflo models most often promoted on this site (the basic 80mm L1A) does not support RPM monitoring. There are some Panaflo models that do support it, or else you can try to get one of fancontrol's boxes that synthesize the RPM signal. Look around the forums for more details, as I can't recall them off the top of my head.

That said, if you can do without RPM monitoring, most people seem happier with finding a good static setting for a Panaflo, than dealing with the willful nature of temperature-sensitive fans. The temperature-sensitive fans I've had personal experience with did not slow down to be nearly quiet enough for my ears, even when held in free air at ambient temperature. Inside your case, and particularly drowned out by your 3 harddrives, it may not be an issue for you, however.

My personal setup is a Panaflo which is dynamically controlled through software (Speedfan) in response to CPU core temp changes. You need a motherboard that supports modifying fan voltages through software. There's a sticky post in the motherboards forum that covers this. You also run into similar annoyance issues with variability in the fan's noise, but for me the added peace of mind is worthwhile.

I hope this was helpful.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:13 am

m0002a wrote:Planning to buy:

- Video Card - big problem - still looking for a fast, reasonably quiet solution

Sapphire ULTIMATE Edition, the list of passively cooled cards, good VGA cooler for 9600/9800 pro cards that quietly pulls VGA heat out of the case.

Sorry for the hijacking

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