Suggestions to make case air flow better

Control: management of fans, temp/rpm monitoring via soft/hardware

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

Post Reply
villa_joe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Texas

Suggestions to make case air flow better

Post by villa_joe » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:10 pm

I wish I had read SPCR recommended cases prior to my purchase, but I had not found the site yet.

I bought the Neo Classic by GMC which happens to be the very case that Mike C said was not designed well for air flow.

I visited with Mike and have drilled 2 80MM holes in the bottom of the case. I now have 4 Panaflo 80L fans running in this system. (2 pulling air from bottom & 2 pushing air from back) My issue is this. My AMD64 3000 is running cool at 27C to 30C, but my case temps will not drop below 33C. After research on this web site, I think it's because I am not gettting enough air flow.

QUESTIONS:
1. Should I install another Panaflo 80MM on the side of the case?(Pushing air out or Pulling In?)
2. Install a 120MM Nexus on top of the case? (Pushing air out or Pulling IN?)
3. Do both options 1 and 2
4. By another case
Thank You,
Joe

A64 3000 1MB Cache, MSI Neo Fisr2, Corsair Platinum Twins 512MB Each, All in Wonder 9600XT, Startech 500 Silent, Plextor CDRW & DVDRW, Seagate 7200.7 80 Gig X 2, Zalman CNPS7000, 4 Panaflo 80L 2 Pulling & 2 Pushing

kogi
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:02 pm
Location: sydney.au

Post by kogi » Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:08 pm

Your case temps are great! That higher than ambient reading probably just because the sensor is close to the CPU socket.

kogi
[size=84][color=blue][url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=325652#325652]My E4300 rig[/url]
[/size][/color]

lenny
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 1642
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 10:50 am
Location: Somewhere out there

Post by lenny » Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:21 pm

Hi, villa_joe

A couple of observations and a couple of suggestions:

1. 33C is definitely on the low side, nothing to be concerned about. Besides, don't put too much faith in the sensor temperature. Many times they are located near some warm component on the motherboard (e.g. northbridge).

2. To improve airflow further, make sure the bottom of the case is raised high enough from the floor or carpet.

3. What's your ambient room temperature? I'm assuming that you have air conditioning since you're in Texas. Your case temp is not going to be cooler than ambient, obviously.

4. MB temperature reporting is not exactly accurate.

villa_joe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Texas

Post by villa_joe » Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:44 am

Thanks Kogi - I know it is low, but ever since I discovered SPCR, silencing / cooling my pc has become a bit of an obsession.

lenny,
2. To improve airflow further, make sure the bottom of the case is raised high enough from the floor or carpet.
The PC is sitting on 2X2 inch pieces of wood that run along the back and front of the PC for now. I have not been able to find feet for the case that sit this high and if I lower it much the impedance tends to make noise.
3. What's your ambient room temperature? I'm assuming that you have air conditioning since you're in Texas. Your case temp is not going to be cooler than ambient, obviously.
My room temperature is a good question. The thermostat for the house is set to 73F, around 23.777 Celsius. The house is big, but I think the temperature in my office is probably with in 2 degrees (Higher Probably) of the living area where the thermostat is located.
4. MB temperature reporting is not exactly accurate.

I did think about that. I was actually looking into an 8 fan controller with temp, fan speed, and voltage reading for my next upgrade. ($49.00) I think my temps are a bit off because I am depending on Motherboard Monitor and onboard sensors.[/quote]
Thank You,
Joe

A64 3000 1MB Cache, MSI Neo Fisr2, Corsair Platinum Twins 512MB Each, All in Wonder 9600XT, Startech 500 Silent, Plextor CDRW & DVDRW, Seagate 7200.7 80 Gig X 2, Zalman CNPS7000, 4 Panaflo 80L 2 Pulling & 2 Pushing

villa_joe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Texas

Post by villa_joe » Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:49 am

lenny,

Forgot to say thanks for the reply. How is the weather in Santa Cruz?
Thank You,
Joe

A64 3000 1MB Cache, MSI Neo Fisr2, Corsair Platinum Twins 512MB Each, All in Wonder 9600XT, Startech 500 Silent, Plextor CDRW & DVDRW, Seagate 7200.7 80 Gig X 2, Zalman CNPS7000, 4 Panaflo 80L 2 Pulling & 2 Pushing

Tibors
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 2674
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:07 am
Location: Houten, The Netherlands, Europe

Post by Tibors » Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:31 am

The PC is sitting on 2X2 inch pieces of wood that run along the back and front of the PC for now. I have not been able to find feet for the case that sit this high and if I lower it much the impedance tends to make noise.
I use rubber doorstoppers of 30mm, but they are availlable in 50mm as well.
3) MSI RS480M2-IL | A64 3000+ | Freezer 64 | SS-301HT | 7200.7 PATA 40GB
5) Intel D525MW | Intel 320 40GB | Vertex II 180GB

villa_joe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Texas

Post by villa_joe » Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:16 pm

I saw some of those yesterday at home depot, but they were hollow and too soft. Are your stoppers hollow as well?
Thank You,
Joe

A64 3000 1MB Cache, MSI Neo Fisr2, Corsair Platinum Twins 512MB Each, All in Wonder 9600XT, Startech 500 Silent, Plextor CDRW & DVDRW, Seagate 7200.7 80 Gig X 2, Zalman CNPS7000, 4 Panaflo 80L 2 Pulling & 2 Pushing

pangit
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:48 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by pangit » Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:39 pm

One obvious tip to improve airflow if you haven't already done it: reduce cabling clutter inside your case. Cablegami your ribbon cables out of the way and route power cables along the sides of the case if they are long enough.

That said, your temps are way low already, so it may not make much difference.
[size=75]pangit

[url=http://www.mypage.tsn.cc/pcsilencing]Pangit's PC silencing project "on the (not so) cheap"[/url]
[/size]

villa_joe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Texas

Post by villa_joe » Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:41 pm

UPDATE:
I drilled an 80MM hole in the side of my case today and added one more panaflo 80L. I tested the system with the fan at 5.5 Volts and then at 12V according to the Zalman switch that has a 12V OFF 5V positions.

Results:
1. Additional fan configured to pull air into the case. Case Temp dropped by 1 degree C to 32C steady with a low of 31C.
2. Changed fan to push air out of the case, Temp rose to 35 C.

I don't quiet understand why this happened. I thought the additional fan would make a big difference, but it didn't even at 12V.

Any ideas out there?
Thank You,
Joe

A64 3000 1MB Cache, MSI Neo Fisr2, Corsair Platinum Twins 512MB Each, All in Wonder 9600XT, Startech 500 Silent, Plextor CDRW & DVDRW, Seagate 7200.7 80 Gig X 2, Zalman CNPS7000, 4 Panaflo 80L 2 Pulling & 2 Pushing

teejay
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 749
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:23 am
Location: The Netherlands

Post by teejay » Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:52 am

Have a similar experience with a fan blowing in from the side of my case (Lian-Li 6089A): it's a 120mm aluminium fan which I put in after installing a Zalman PSU and a new videocard, which together raised the case temp about 5 C.

It didn't really lower case temps at all, 1-2 degs at most, no matter what the voltage (I run it at the lowest possible voltage usually). And it moves a LOT of air at 12V. The only thing it accomplished - besides looking pretty with a noisy laser-cut grille - was cooling the video memory almost 10 degs and the gpu a few degs.

After extensively modding my server based on all the excellent tips found here (thank you all btw), I concluded that a linear airflow (that is, front-to-back with no side-mounted fans or intakes other than ducts) works best in my case(s). Side-mounted fans have a tendency to mess up airflow through a case thus creating turbulence (noise) and hot air pockets.

All in all, I think I am going to be very happy with my PC-V1000 or V1100 later this month. Haven't decided yet, to me it's looks versus even more silence...

TJ

kesv
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:44 am

Post by kesv » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:05 am

villa_joe wrote: I don't quiet understand why this happened. I thought the additional fan would make a big difference, but it didn't even at 12V.
Let this be a lesson to you, more fans do _not_ automatically mean reduced temperatures. One thing to consider is the overall flow conditions. To achieve good cooling the air should flow through the hottest parts of the case.

imho:
A sidefan blowing out is not a good idea unless you duct it to draw air directly from the cpu heatsink or something. Otherwise the fan will just reroute air that was going to the cpu to the wrong side of the case.

Tigr
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:18 am
Contact:

Post by Tigr » Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:38 am

Hi!

First off, I do not understand the temperature readings that you supply. According to your measurements, the CPU is running below the case temperature? That is simply not possible unless you duct the CPU with the fresh air intake from outside the case.

The 4 fans in the case (plus the fan in the PSU) must be adequate for cooling all but most horrible setups. The case looks to me a regular square box, so this cannot be as horrible as you describe :)

What is your ambient room temperature?
Did you remove all fan grills?
Did you check what happens if you remove all intake fans? all exhaust fans?
How fast are your fans running?
As was said already, did you clean up the cables within the box tio improve airflow?
Did you consider that 33 degrees may be actually ok?

Tibors
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 2674
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:07 am
Location: Houten, The Netherlands, Europe

Post by Tibors » Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:46 am

villa_joe wrote:I saw some of those yesterday at home depot, but they were hollow and too soft. Are your stoppers hollow as well?
Mine have a diameter of 28mm with a 6mm screwhole through the centre. The rubber is massive and quite stiff.
3) MSI RS480M2-IL | A64 3000+ | Freezer 64 | SS-301HT | 7200.7 PATA 40GB
5) Intel D525MW | Intel 320 40GB | Vertex II 180GB

villa_joe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Texas

Post by villa_joe » Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:23 pm

I will reply to you all more in detail and include some pictures of the case when I get home tonight.

I did realize that 33C was a good temp, but I guess I always want MORE!

I don't understand how my CPU temp is lower than the case temp either, but the system has run that way since the beginning and I have checked the temps to make sure they were correct.

Cables are clean and out of the way.

I learned my lesson. More fans is not always good.
Thank You,
Joe

A64 3000 1MB Cache, MSI Neo Fisr2, Corsair Platinum Twins 512MB Each, All in Wonder 9600XT, Startech 500 Silent, Plextor CDRW & DVDRW, Seagate 7200.7 80 Gig X 2, Zalman CNPS7000, 4 Panaflo 80L 2 Pulling & 2 Pushing

Straker
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:10 pm
Location: AB, Canada
Contact:

Post by Straker » Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:52 pm

You could try covering up the bottom back fan hole (with a piece of cardboard or something really temporary) to see if your air flow was actually better before. Removing the side panel works too (temps shouldn't go down more than a degree or two max if air is flowing properly) but doesn't show what's wrong exactly. I'm sure your case/fan setup is fine, but I've seen a lot of posts on... other... forums of PCs with 10+ fans dissipating the same heat as mine (p4 2.4, x800, one fan + cpu/ps) and their temps are the same as mine because they've screwed up the intended air flow so badly with blowholes etc. :?

bchung
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:36 pm

Re: Suggestions to make case air flow better

Post by bchung » Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:09 pm

villa_joe wrote:I bought the Neo Classic by GMC which happens to be the very case that Mike C said was not designed well for air flow.

I bought a chilli aluminum 1/4" pro case which is even smaller than the neo classic. You got plenty of space to work with, and it seems that things are stable.

Wait till I get my camera back from RMA and I'll put things in perspective for you :)

I also went against Mike's suggestion (except I asked first) and have been told time and time again that the chilli pro is one of the worst, if not the worst, case for airflow. It took some work and some planning, but I got a rock solid rig (seriously, moving it is like moving a sack of bricks) that I really am proud of.

villa_joe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Texas

Post by villa_joe » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:13 pm

Update:
I shut down the side fan and covered the hole with aluminum tape. I also covered up the holes in the front of the case since there are no fans there and they are allowing a lot of air to escape in the wrong direction. I'll let it sit for a while and give some new temps when this experiment is over.
Thank You,
Joe

A64 3000 1MB Cache, MSI Neo Fisr2, Corsair Platinum Twins 512MB Each, All in Wonder 9600XT, Startech 500 Silent, Plextor CDRW & DVDRW, Seagate 7200.7 80 Gig X 2, Zalman CNPS7000, 4 Panaflo 80L 2 Pulling & 2 Pushing

Post Reply