I have read all of the great reviews on the Panaflo FBA08A12L1A on the site and here in the forum. Unfortunately, 24CFM is not quite enough to replace the 26 CFM fans that are currently in my case. Has anyone used the Panaflo FBA08A12M1A? (32.1CFM, 28dBA) Is it at least on par with it's little brother as far as having the promised airflow and noise attributes? If not, what would you recommend?
~J
Current System:
3.4 GHz Pentium 4 Northwood
2GB Crucial Ballistix PC4000 DDR
MSI Neo2-FIS2R 865PE
ATI RADEON 9800Pro 128MB AGP
M-Audio Audiophile 192 4 in/4 out 24-bit 192kHz
Western Digital WD740GD 10000RPM 74GB SATA
TDK 1280B DVDRW/CDRW
Zalman CNPS7000B-Cu CPU Cooler
Zalman ZM400B-APS PSU
GUP Smart Drive 2002
E-A-R F-344 ISODAMP Fan Mounts
Cooler Master Wave Master TAC-T01
Panaflo 80mm - Has anyone used the 12M1A ?
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
WELCOME TO SPCR !!!
While I've two M1s on hand, I couldn't quite get your question. None of us here run the L1A at full 12V anyway, so I'm not sure we'll be talking about the same quietness level.
From what I understand, you want the M1 as case fan to cool your case. Now, when you say 24 CFM is not enough I get confused. 24 CFM is A LOT of airflow.
You use the Zalman 7000 on your CPU which is a GREAT cooler for working in very low airflow situations.
So unless you're looking to mod your Zalman PSU, I see no reason for you to go for a M1A, let alone an L1A at 12V.
To answer your question, I have a FBL M1BX, permanently undervolted for 5V. It's very quiet. I also have a FBA M1A which is a little noisier. As I never use either fan at more than 5V, I can't help you much on the airflow. Naturally the 5V M1A blows more air than the L1A. In fact, at 5V, the L1A blows nearly nothing
WOW! hit my 1000th post with this!
While I've two M1s on hand, I couldn't quite get your question. None of us here run the L1A at full 12V anyway, so I'm not sure we'll be talking about the same quietness level.
From what I understand, you want the M1 as case fan to cool your case. Now, when you say 24 CFM is not enough I get confused. 24 CFM is A LOT of airflow.
You use the Zalman 7000 on your CPU which is a GREAT cooler for working in very low airflow situations.
So unless you're looking to mod your Zalman PSU, I see no reason for you to go for a M1A, let alone an L1A at 12V.
To answer your question, I have a FBL M1BX, permanently undervolted for 5V. It's very quiet. I also have a FBA M1A which is a little noisier. As I never use either fan at more than 5V, I can't help you much on the airflow. Naturally the 5V M1A blows more air than the L1A. In fact, at 5V, the L1A blows nearly nothing
WOW! hit my 1000th post with this!
I know that the Zalman is a great cooler (from the reviews here and elsewhere), and it holds my CPU at 50C under full load, which I am happy with. The fans that came with my Wave Master are just a little bit noisier than I'd like though. I am looking at replacing them, but do not want to loose any airflow. Cooler Master says that the stock fans are 26.79CFM 23dBA, however they are substantially louder than the FBA08A12L1A that I have - obviously MUCH more then the +3dBA that they are supposed to be. I was looking to see if the FBA08A12M1A would be a suitable replacement for them. (I've never heard of the FBL M1BX... I'll have to look into that)
The PC I mention above is powering a recording studio - hence wanting it relatively quiet. I am not exactly looking for silence, but you guys seem to really know what you are talking about so I figured anything that was alright for you would be more than good enough for me...
Any thoughts?
~J
P.S. Thanks for the welcome
The PC I mention above is powering a recording studio - hence wanting it relatively quiet. I am not exactly looking for silence, but you guys seem to really know what you are talking about so I figured anything that was alright for you would be more than good enough for me...
Any thoughts?
~J
P.S. Thanks for the welcome
Well then you better make sure not to let any dust build up in that PC cause that will impede airflow.OmegaZero wrote:but do not want to loose any airflow.
Also, even wire grills impede airflow, so if you got some L1A's and didn't use any of those wire grills, you'd probably have at least as much airflow. If you haven't removed the wire grills on the inside of the case, just getting rid of those might give at least as good airflow with L1A's.
As I understand it, positive airflow = no dust. My configuration is 2x80mm @ 7v in and 1x80mm @ 7v out. I am hoping that this will alleviate the dust concern.
I have not yet changed the stock fan set up (grills are still on). I will certainly do so when I change them. Also, I have done the "incense test" to check my air flow. Even holding the incense directly in front of the intake I could not see the smoke anywhere in the case - I am assuming if there was a dead/hot spot in the flow I would have seen the smoke collecting, right?
Again, the main goal is basically to quiet the system without it getting any hotter. Since the case fans are all I can hear (and they are the only part I didn't pick out), I figured that getting quieter ones would help. Is that right?
~J
I have not yet changed the stock fan set up (grills are still on). I will certainly do so when I change them. Also, I have done the "incense test" to check my air flow. Even holding the incense directly in front of the intake I could not see the smoke anywhere in the case - I am assuming if there was a dead/hot spot in the flow I would have seen the smoke collecting, right?
Again, the main goal is basically to quiet the system without it getting any hotter. Since the case fans are all I can hear (and they are the only part I didn't pick out), I figured that getting quieter ones would help. Is that right?
~J
Why didn't you mention that the stock fans were at 7 volts? In that case, you shouldn't have a problem getting less noise at the same airflow. Panaflos are said to undervolt well, so an L1A at 7v might actually spin faster than that fan, but I wouldn't count on it. An M1A at 5V might give equivalent airflow, but I'm not sure of that eitther. An M1A at 6volts on the other hand should do what you want, the only problem is you'll only be able to do this to an even number of fans, because you'll need to wire two fans in series (connect the ground of one to the power line of the other). A little word of caution, I haven't ever actually done this myself.
Ok, the answer you're looking for is yes the M1A is a nice fan that'll probably be quieter than your stock fans and provide "enough" airflow.
But as you can see from the comments, we here tend to stay away from medium-flow fans so we want to make sure you REALLY need the airflow. Opening up grills etc helps greatly. Don't go just by numbers. For example, in the latest Zalman 7700 review there are airflow figures (actual figures, not manufacturer quotes). According to that I run my Zalman on my Athlon64 3000+ at LESS than 8 cfm. Yes EIGHT. Having good airflow without obstacles is a must and it seems you already have that. But having a LARGE flow might not be that necessary. How about you do some testing by taking your intake fans out of the loop and see what happens.
Also, have you undervolted your CPU? should get your temps down quickly.
If you can ever find them, I find Medium speed sleeve bearing Globe fans (hard to come by, I leeched mine from AOpen cases) have equivalent airflow and noise characteristics of the M1A but the noise signiture is more pleasant.
OK, just took a look at your case. It's aluminium. The M1A I have (actually all Panaflos I have) vibrates a lot which is going to make even more noise on the aluminium. Decoupling is a must. Or get the Globe I just mentioned. Globe fans are fantastically well balanced IMO.
But as you can see from the comments, we here tend to stay away from medium-flow fans so we want to make sure you REALLY need the airflow. Opening up grills etc helps greatly. Don't go just by numbers. For example, in the latest Zalman 7700 review there are airflow figures (actual figures, not manufacturer quotes). According to that I run my Zalman on my Athlon64 3000+ at LESS than 8 cfm. Yes EIGHT. Having good airflow without obstacles is a must and it seems you already have that. But having a LARGE flow might not be that necessary. How about you do some testing by taking your intake fans out of the loop and see what happens.
Also, have you undervolted your CPU? should get your temps down quickly.
If you can ever find them, I find Medium speed sleeve bearing Globe fans (hard to come by, I leeched mine from AOpen cases) have equivalent airflow and noise characteristics of the M1A but the noise signiture is more pleasant.
OK, just took a look at your case. It's aluminium. The M1A I have (actually all Panaflos I have) vibrates a lot which is going to make even more noise on the aluminium. Decoupling is a must. Or get the Globe I just mentioned. Globe fans are fantastically well balanced IMO.
The only reason I want to keep the airflow the same is to keep the temperature down. If I remove the intake fans, the ambient temperature in the case rises and the CPU temperature goes over the 50C mark. I think I should avoid that.
It looks like the 80mm "M" might be the same as the 80mm "L" only running at a higher RPM rate. If so, would setting the "M" speed to match the "L" (leaving the option of higher speed if necessary) yield the same sonic results?
Unfortunately, I don't think that under-volting the CPU is an option since my studio work is a pretty intense load.
When I said I had not changed the fan setup I meant that I hadn't moved the fans or grills. I set the stock fans to run at 7v after reading some of the articles/posts here at SPCR. Basically I tried 7v and 5v for all of the fans and found that 5v made the temperature too high - so I settled with 7v for now.
I really appreciate the comments! Keep 'em coming...
~J
It looks like the 80mm "M" might be the same as the 80mm "L" only running at a higher RPM rate. If so, would setting the "M" speed to match the "L" (leaving the option of higher speed if necessary) yield the same sonic results?
Unfortunately, I don't think that under-volting the CPU is an option since my studio work is a pretty intense load.
When I said I had not changed the fan setup I meant that I hadn't moved the fans or grills. I set the stock fans to run at 7v after reading some of the articles/posts here at SPCR. Basically I tried 7v and 5v for all of the fans and found that 5v made the temperature too high - so I settled with 7v for now.
I really appreciate the comments! Keep 'em coming...
~J
Undervolting is NOT underclocking. You can reduce the voltage supplied to your CPU without affecting performance. Since heat generated is proportional to th SQUARE of the voltage supplied you can get huge improvements with minimal undervolting. For example, a 20% core voltage reduction will give you nearly 40% reduction in heat output - without affecting your CPU speed.
Try to find the lowest vcore your CPU can operate at stably (running Prime95 while lowering vcore every 10 minutes is one quick way to find out). On top, you CPU should operate perfectly well at temps above 50. I personally don't become concerned until temps pass 60C. I can even be comfortable with say 65C with an Athlon Palomino core.
Try to find the lowest vcore your CPU can operate at stably (running Prime95 while lowering vcore every 10 minutes is one quick way to find out). On top, you CPU should operate perfectly well at temps above 50. I personally don't become concerned until temps pass 60C. I can even be comfortable with say 65C with an Athlon Palomino core.
I must admit, I had under-volting confused with under-clocking. 
I'll try that...
Any thoughts on my fan comparison?
~J
I'll try that...Any thoughts on my fan comparison?
Also, maybe adding the "ceiling fan" that is optional with my case (instead of the top I/O ports) as an exhaust and then running both exhausts at 5v and keeping the intakes at 7v would work better than the 2 in @7v / 1 out @ 7v configuration? Would that be a better airflow pattern?It looks like the 80mm "M" might be the same as the 80mm "L" only running at a higher RPM rate. If so, would setting the "M" speed to match the "L" (leaving the option of higher speed if necessary) yield the same sonic results?
~J
My guess would be it should be better for the video card(unless you have a silencer), hard drives but not the CPU. Some links to pics of your case would help, and some pics oy your motherboard or just say were on your MB your CPU is.OmegaZero wrote:Also, maybe adding the "ceiling fan" that is optional with my case (instead of the top I/O ports) as an exhaust and then running both exhausts at 5v and keeping the intakes at 7v would work better than the 2 in @7v / 1 out @ 7v configuration? Would that be a better airflow pattern?
I never said you have to take the pics.
http://www.3dvelocity.com/reviews/wavem ... act0_2.htm it's exactly like this, right?
So part of your CPU heatsink is directly below your top fan slot?
Since your CPU is also quite far back, your rear fan is probably not much more effective than your top fan.
Your question about the two exhaust fans is too unclear becausse you're not saying whether you want to use L1A's, M1A's, or mostly your stock fans.
http://www.3dvelocity.com/reviews/wavem ... act0_2.htm it's exactly like this, right?
So part of your CPU heatsink is directly below your top fan slot?
Since your CPU is also quite far back, your rear fan is probably not much more effective than your top fan.
Your question about the two exhaust fans is too unclear becausse you're not saying whether you want to use L1A's, M1A's, or mostly your stock fans.
I am currently using the stock fans and have found them to be a little louder than I would like (mechanical/vibration noise, not turbulence). I am planning on ordering at least 3 replacement fans, possibly 4 if I decide to use the ceiling fan. I will remove the grills and use E-A-R silicon mounts when I change them. My original question was if anyone had used the M1A, and whether or not it was on par with it's little brother as far as having the promised airflow with low noise?
I wondered if the M1A's would be a good choice, and also if setting the M1A speed to match the L1A (leaving the option of higher speed if necessary) might yield the same sonic results?
Whether or not to use the ceiling fan was an after thought, but since you guys have been awesome about giving suggestions I thought I might ask...
~J
P.S. Yes, that case (link above) is the same as mine.
I wondered if the M1A's would be a good choice, and also if setting the M1A speed to match the L1A (leaving the option of higher speed if necessary) might yield the same sonic results?
Whether or not to use the ceiling fan was an after thought, but since you guys have been awesome about giving suggestions I thought I might ask...
~J
P.S. Yes, that case (link above) is the same as mine.
OmegaZero,
The comparison you're looking for (keep noise/cfm fixed, compare to fan x) is out of the realm of anybody in this site except MikeC. Manufacturer specs are BS, interpretation of noise is different for everybody, etc. MikeC has the actual equipment to make the comparison but then he's very busy.
So you'll have to make a guesstimate from the comments. L1A is really good for spot cooling unless you're running it at full 12V. Otherwise the airflow is pretty limited. M1A blows a respectable amount of air at full 12V but is a bit noisy. For reference, if you've ever heard the Thermaltake CPU heatsink that has the strange fan with open slots on the side of the fan bracket, that fan is the Panaflo M1A for you. For most of us here, the M1A noise is unbearable at 12V. I've used it at 5V. At that level, it's quieter (and very usable) than an L1A at 12V but blows slightly less air.
Sonic signature is pretty hard to describe. All panaflo fans I have have their own quirks. One has a wooshing sound, another clicks, one other has bearing noise, etc. They're all better than any other fan I had (with the possible exception of Globes) so you'll probably like them.
I think any of your Panaflos will be inaudible if you're running your zalman at 12V - you didn't say anything about that.
Mechanical decoupling from the case is a must for all fans. Soft rubber washers & zipties should do wonders for cheap.
IIRC the reviews of the CM case, the problem with the case was NOT the exhaust but the intake. If that's correct, opening up the above hole probably won't help much.
The comparison you're looking for (keep noise/cfm fixed, compare to fan x) is out of the realm of anybody in this site except MikeC. Manufacturer specs are BS, interpretation of noise is different for everybody, etc. MikeC has the actual equipment to make the comparison but then he's very busy.
So you'll have to make a guesstimate from the comments. L1A is really good for spot cooling unless you're running it at full 12V. Otherwise the airflow is pretty limited. M1A blows a respectable amount of air at full 12V but is a bit noisy. For reference, if you've ever heard the Thermaltake CPU heatsink that has the strange fan with open slots on the side of the fan bracket, that fan is the Panaflo M1A for you. For most of us here, the M1A noise is unbearable at 12V. I've used it at 5V. At that level, it's quieter (and very usable) than an L1A at 12V but blows slightly less air.
Sonic signature is pretty hard to describe. All panaflo fans I have have their own quirks. One has a wooshing sound, another clicks, one other has bearing noise, etc. They're all better than any other fan I had (with the possible exception of Globes) so you'll probably like them.
I think any of your Panaflos will be inaudible if you're running your zalman at 12V - you didn't say anything about that.
Mechanical decoupling from the case is a must for all fans. Soft rubber washers & zipties should do wonders for cheap.
IIRC the reviews of the CM case, the problem with the case was NOT the exhaust but the intake. If that's correct, opening up the above hole probably won't help much.
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frankgehry
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:00 am
- Location: New York, NY
My advice
OZ,
Here's what I would do. I would really hate to cut holes in a nice case like the wave master if I could make the noise and cooling levels acceptable by just changing out fans. I believe thats what you want to do. I have a 92 mm medium speed panaflo, a low speed panaflo, and a nexus. This fan was to used for my xp-90 heatsink. I eventually settled for the nexus, but in your case I have a feeling that you might want a combination. Perhaps 2 medium speed panaflos in the front position and a low speed panaflo in the back. Anyway I would just purchase one of each, do some testing, and then buy the rest of the fans once you have an idea of what each one is capable of. They're not very expensive. Be sure to get fans with rpm monitoring. The part number for the 80mm medium speed is FBA08A12M-H1BX. The BX suffix indicates rpm monitoring. - FG
Here's what I would do. I would really hate to cut holes in a nice case like the wave master if I could make the noise and cooling levels acceptable by just changing out fans. I believe thats what you want to do. I have a 92 mm medium speed panaflo, a low speed panaflo, and a nexus. This fan was to used for my xp-90 heatsink. I eventually settled for the nexus, but in your case I have a feeling that you might want a combination. Perhaps 2 medium speed panaflos in the front position and a low speed panaflo in the back. Anyway I would just purchase one of each, do some testing, and then buy the rest of the fans once you have an idea of what each one is capable of. They're not very expensive. Be sure to get fans with rpm monitoring. The part number for the 80mm medium speed is FBA08A12M-H1BX. The BX suffix indicates rpm monitoring. - FG
What is insence? I have thought about trying this but have not found how to generate suitable smoke.. Didnt get much smarter by googling.OmegaZero wrote: Also, I have done the "incense test" to check my air flow. Even holding the incense directly in front of the intake I could not see the smoke anywhere in the case - I am assuming if there was a dead/hot spot in the flow I would have seen the smoke collecting, right?
~J
-
Ralf Hutter
- SPCR Reviewer
- Posts: 8636
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
- Location: Sunny SoCal
It's the scented sticks that the hippies burned to cover up the smell of their pot smoke.nici wrote: What is insence? I have thought about trying this but have not found how to generate suitable smoke.. Didnt get much smarter by googling.
About the incense test... am I correct in assuming that, since I did not see any pockets if smoke collecting I can assume my airflow is ok?
Nici:
Get a piece of glass or clear plastic that is the size of your side panels (Home Depot if in USA) and a few sticks of incense (most corner stores have this). Then position a lit stick of incense in front of your intake while holding the glass/plastic where the side panel goes. When I did this the first time I could see a cloud of smoke building up in certain spots, so I re-organized things to let the air flow through. I *think* what you want to see is no smoke at all, which would mean your airflow is set up and moving well. As you can see from above, I am still trying to find out about that...
Frankgehry & Burcakb:
Thank you for the advice. I have just ordered three or each Panaflo ("L" and "M") and am going to try them out. I found a site selling them for $5 each, so this was not a big deal. As for the decoupling, I have a bag of the EAR F-344 mounts that I am planning on using.
I have unfortunately had to continue using the Zalman on full power, because when I slow it down the CPU temp rises very quickly (ProTools and Nuendo - my studio software - are a HEAVEY load); this where the ceiling fan idea came from. I am going to pick up the Zalman 7700 and see if it does any better. I am hoping the bigger heat sink helps...
BTW: I do not need to cut holes in the case to use the ceiling fan. The I/O ports on the top of the case are removable, and it comes with the fan mounting for this spot.
The comment that stands out to me is:
~J
Nici:
Get a piece of glass or clear plastic that is the size of your side panels (Home Depot if in USA) and a few sticks of incense (most corner stores have this). Then position a lit stick of incense in front of your intake while holding the glass/plastic where the side panel goes. When I did this the first time I could see a cloud of smoke building up in certain spots, so I re-organized things to let the air flow through. I *think* what you want to see is no smoke at all, which would mean your airflow is set up and moving well. As you can see from above, I am still trying to find out about that...
Frankgehry & Burcakb:
Thank you for the advice. I have just ordered three or each Panaflo ("L" and "M") and am going to try them out. I found a site selling them for $5 each, so this was not a big deal. As for the decoupling, I have a bag of the EAR F-344 mounts that I am planning on using.
I have unfortunately had to continue using the Zalman on full power, because when I slow it down the CPU temp rises very quickly (ProTools and Nuendo - my studio software - are a HEAVEY load); this where the ceiling fan idea came from. I am going to pick up the Zalman 7700 and see if it does any better. I am hoping the bigger heat sink helps...
BTW: I do not need to cut holes in the case to use the ceiling fan. The I/O ports on the top of the case are removable, and it comes with the fan mounting for this spot.
The comment that stands out to me is:
If the Panaflo's are going to be inaudible with the 7000b running, then I'll be fine. In my application the Zalman by itself (case fans off) is VERY acceptable. Actually the loudest part of the machine is the WD hard drive - even within the Smart Drive it is a little noisy. Too bad Seagate doesn't make a 10k SATA drive...I think any of your Panaflos will be inaudible if you're running your Zalman at 12V - you didn't say anything about that.
~J
Think carefully whether you really want to do that, it doesn't sound like all that much of an upgrade. Does an XP-120 not fit?(have you checked if a 7700 would, if your CPU is at the top of your MB I'd expect that you'd need a good amount of space between the MB and PSU)OmegaZero wrote: I have unfortunately had to continue using the Zalman on full power, because when I slow it down the CPU temp rises very quickly (ProTools and Nuendo - my studio software - are a HEAVEY load); this where the ceiling fan idea came from. I am going to pick up the Zalman 7700 and see if it does any better. I am hoping the bigger heat sink helps...
~J
OZ,
Please try undervolting before anything else. The difference in heat output is HUGE. I don't know if your board supports undervolting. If it doesn't (check in BIOS) there are a couple of utilities you may try. If it works, you could probably lower the Zalman 7000 speed without opening up your top fan slot.
Read up on the 7700 AlCu review. The impression I got from that review is that the performance isnt' all that different from the 7000.
Did you try suspending your Raptors? I know they're noisy but the 74GB versions you have FDB; might make an unexpectedly big drop in noise.
Please try undervolting before anything else. The difference in heat output is HUGE. I don't know if your board supports undervolting. If it doesn't (check in BIOS) there are a couple of utilities you may try. If it works, you could probably lower the Zalman 7000 speed without opening up your top fan slot.
Read up on the 7700 AlCu review. The impression I got from that review is that the performance isnt' all that different from the 7000.
Did you try suspending your Raptors? I know they're noisy but the 74GB versions you have FDB; might make an unexpectedly big drop in noise.
My motherboard is an MSI Neo2-FIS2R, which has more options than I know what to do with. I updated the BIOS just now to make sure I was all set with the most recent version and found something surprising: a 12C temperature drop on the CPU. The answer was easy to find; The first line of the version report for this bios release says "Fix CPU temperature is too high." My CPU is now reading a steady 38C idle and peaks at about 42C.
That being said, temperature is no longer a concern. Now I just need to quiet the damn thing down. I am going to start by changing the fans to the Panaflos I just ordered and using the EAR mounts. I am also going to set them up at 5v hoping the temperatures will stay reasonable.
I picked up a digital camera today. I am planning on posting pictures soon to get more input...
Burcakb:
My Raptor HD is mounted in a GUP Smart Drive, and the noise I spoke of is from it seeking. As I understand it there is not really much that can be done about that...
Thank you all for your help and comments, I appreciate it greatly.
~J
That being said, temperature is no longer a concern. Now I just need to quiet the damn thing down. I am going to start by changing the fans to the Panaflos I just ordered and using the EAR mounts. I am also going to set them up at 5v hoping the temperatures will stay reasonable.
I picked up a digital camera today. I am planning on posting pictures soon to get more input...
Burcakb:
My Raptor HD is mounted in a GUP Smart Drive, and the noise I spoke of is from it seeking. As I understand it there is not really much that can be done about that...
Thank you all for your help and comments, I appreciate it greatly.
~J